Conference noted::bicycle

    I have built numerous wheels using an inexpensive Minoura truing
    stand.  Make sure you purchase the wheel centering device also.
    Total cost should be no more than 35.00 for both from a mail order
    source.  
    
    If its only minor truing that's needed, do it right on the bike
    using your brakes as a guide.
    
    steve

I built my first wheel back in the 60's, when I installed a two speed
Bendex(?) hub in my one speed coaster brake bike.  Now I admit that I'm no
expert, and I only build wheels for myself, and possibly my wife, but other
than the original wheels that come with the bike, I won't ride a wheel that
I don't build myself. 

I've never owned or used a wheel truing stand or a wheel dishing tool.
These would indeed make the job go faster, but I'm only doing my own
maintenance, so that is not worth it.  The frame and brakes make a fine
stand if you are just taking care of your normal needs. 

Just get a good spoke wrench, make sure the ends of the spokes are not
rusted tight, so that the spoke nipple turns freely.  Take off the tire,
tube and rim strip, and put a drop of oil on the threads if they are tight.
Then turn the wheel slowly, watching the gap between the rim and the brake
blocks.  Tighten about a quarter turn the pair of spokes opposite the side
that comes too close to a brake pad. 

Every so often, watch the height of the rim instead of the side to side
sway.  Tighten maybe four spokes on the high side, and loosen the same
number on the opposite side, so the rim is centered on the axis of the hub.
Go Slow! 

And don't worry about being perfect.  As long as the sway and wobble are
below what the brakes care about, and the tire can soak up with its flex,
it will ride just fine. 

Overall spoke tension is important.  After doing a few wheels, the hands
learn the feel, and the ears recognize the tone from a plucked spoke.  If
you can easily move the rim sideways by pushing with your thumb or palm at
the brake, while holding the frame, then its too loose.  But if you push
hard, even a proper wheel will deflect.  When you squeeze spoke pairs that
cross over, the rim will also deflect, and you can judge the spoke tension.

Del Ramey,
Riding the same bike since 1973, just change the wheels and gears from time
to time.

               >>>>>> DO IT YOURSELF <<<<<
    
     As far as I'm concerned, any (good quality) tool you purchase is
     an investment. It will save you money over the years, and give
     you the assurance that the job was done right (hopefully).
           I just bought a PARK truing stand from Bike Nashbar for $79.00
     after a long debate. I'm building a second set of wheels now, and
     figure by the third, it will have paid for itself. Granted, you
     can get by with doing it on the bike, or "with a little help from
     your friends", but the ease and convienience of having the proper
     tools is often hard to beat. I guess it all depends on how often
     you think you"ll use it.

I use a cheaper stand and don't have a centering device.  These work fine for
me, although I've only built about 6 or 7 wheels.

I'm not sure how much benefit there is to spending a lot on a stand if you're
only going to do this occasionally.  If you have the money to spend then maybe
an expensive stand is the way to go.  Given the choice I'd rather buy riding
shorts or gloves with the money I save.  BUT I WOULD BUY THE STAND!  (I've
tried trueing on the bike frame and it just didn't work for me.)

Anyway, there's a lot to trueing that becomes even easier if you actually
build a set of wheels from scratch!  It begins to make sense.  If you're not
up to that then here's a few tips on trueing...

Start with egg shape removal.  Then get rid of the potato chip shape.  Then
center the wheel.  Do those three things separately and carefully and you
won't need to go back and forth a lot.  (I went crazy the first time, when I
tried doing egg and potato chip at the same time!!!  Never again!!!)

You can easily center the wheel in the stand, without a separate centering
device, by removing the wheel and turning it around in the stand.  If it's too
far left it'll look OK one way (the way you first set it up) but will be off
when you turn it around.  If you tighten and loosen ALL the spokes alternately
EXACTLY the same number of turns, then it'll move over to the center...even-
tually.  You need to keep checking by flipping the wheel around, though.  And
if you turn the spoke nuts carefully then you won't go back to egg or potato
shape as you approach center.

Another tip!  Hold the spoke with pliers as you turn the spoke nut.  If you
keep the spoke from twisting then you get a true tightening or loosening.
This is ESPECIALLY true for older wheels (building from scratch everything
is and turns easily...less twisting but I use plier anyway).

Dick

    RE: .0
    
    I'm in the same boat as you.  I want to get a truing stand to do
    my own maintenance but I don't want to spend more than is necessary.
    
    Up until now, I've been leaning toward the $79 Park consumer model but
    just recently, I've been thinking of buying the $27 Minoura stand
    instead.  My justification is that I will use this thing only a
    few times a year.  I don't care if it takes a little extra time.
    
    I could be convinced to get the better model.  Does anyone have any
    info that I should know about these two models?  Will the final result
    be the same?  I will spend the extra $50 (or even go up to the
    porfessional stand) if the cost could be justified by a better final
    wheel.
    
    BTW,  I also plan to get the dishing tool.  I there any reason
    I should not buy the inexpensive $9 Minoura tool.  The next better
    model is about $25 if I remember correctly.
    
    Please respond soon if you have any comments.  The order goes out
    within the next day or two. 
    
    /Jim Pappas

>    BTW,  I also plan to get the dishing tool.  I there any reason
>    I should not buy the inexpensive $9 Minoura tool.  The next better
>    model is about $25 if I remember correctly.
    
Dishing tool is not necessary - the trick mentioned in one of the 
previous notes of flipping the wheel in the stand and splitting the 
difference to the indicator works (in my semi-humble opinion) far 
better, and is what I've used for every one of the wheels I've built 
(somewhere in the 100's). My favorite stand was a homemade one we had in 
our shop which consisted of two uprights (one adjustable for width), and 
an adjustable arm/indicator on one side. Clamped it in a vise. Simple, 
effective. I find the Park/Minoura ilk LOOKS much nicer than it works, 
altho it's certainly possible to build nice wheels on one. I have the 
Minoura, but if I were to consider building a lot of wheels again, i 
think I'd remove the arm and put on a simple indicator rod....

                                                ken

    I've used the flipping the wheel technique in .-1 and it works fine.

    It's more important to have low runout and proper tensioning than
    *exact* centering.  The expensive Park stand is probably unjustifiable
    for home use, and won't really result in any better wheels.

    - Jim

    
    	Well, as with most things its a personal choice.  It can be
    a very nice thing to have solid  "pro quality"  tools and if another
    ~$50 isn't gonna break the bank you might as well go for it.  Of
    course the alternate opportunities for ~$50 is [list_personal.choice]
    I have a cheap Minoura stand, I think it was ~$20 or $25 three or
    four years ago, works just fine but I would LIKE to have something
    better.  Before that I used the frame, sometimes I'd replace a brake
    block with a bolt and two nuts {sometimes I'd forget to replace
    the bolt and two nuts with the brake block afterwards; interesting}
    
    	re .7	One of the purists is gonna bash you for this.  The
    arguement is that if the rim isn't centred on the hub then it won't
    centre in the frame.  If you centre it in the frame then it won't
    track parallel with the other wheel.  Kinda like this for a rear
    wheel, which is the dished one:-
    
    	Parallel	or	Centred at front edge
	but offset		{how we "sight" it}

        	|			|
    
    
	    	 |			/

    
    	Reg	{zero dished when fixed}
    

	 .7>      It's more important to have low runout 
    
    Here's me just about to try building a rear wheel, thinking I've
    got the basic notions taped, and I read the above. What on Earth
    is runout, and how do I get it low?
    
    
    Rod
 

    Re .8

	I agree that the centering shouldn't be too shabby, but being a
    practical sort, I'd rather have a really tight, trued wheel than a
    bit loose one that was dead centered.  I've usually gone for better
    than around 1/8 inch, but don't worry if it's not dead on when I flip
    the wheel.  With new rims this is very easy to achieve.

    Re .9

	That seems to be a machinists term for side to side or other assymetry
    of a symmetric rotating part.  If you can get a look at the book "The
    Bycycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt it's well worth it.  Some good wisdom
    in there...

    - Jim

< Note 592.10 by CADM::ROTH "If you plant ice you'll harvest wind" >
>	That seems to be a machinists term for side to side or other assymetry
>    of a symmetric rotating part.  If you can get a look at the book "The
>    Bycycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt it's well worth it.  Some good wisdom
>    in there...


I assume runout to be the variation of the wheel's distance between say the
ground that it touches and the hub center. In other words if you were to take
a string and held one end at the hub center and the other next to the rim, you
should be able to spin the wheel and not see and deviation. Is this what you 
mean Jim? I would assume this to be a criticle adjustment to prevent wheel 'hop'
at high speeds. 

Another note: Just picked up the Minoura stand at Bike Nashbar for 26.50.
I trued up three sets of wheels this weekend and by the third set I had it
down pretty good. The stand is a bit wobbly but if your patient and set it
on a flat well supported surface this is not a problem. The only peave I have
with it is the screws used to gauge the wheel side play. They are simply a big
bolt set into a tapped hole which you turn in until it contacts or gets very 
close to the rim. This bolt to hole tolerance is loose so that you have to be
careful not to bump it while trueing. 

All in all I am happy with it. At almost 1/3 the cost of the Park home model
I think it is worth it. I didn't bother with the dishing tool either. I used
the money I save to buy chain cleaner, remover and other useful tools.

mano

    I'm writing this note for my significant other/training partner.
     He was reading .7 and wanted to say that you guys have him pretty
    well scared off !!  Wants to know if there a book that would help
    or should he buy parts for a wheel and just start (trial & error)?
    
    Also wanted to know if the book "The Bicycle Wheel" mentioned in
    .10 is any good for a VERY novice beginner ?  If not, are there
    any suggestions.
    
    BTW, we had to take his rear wheel int be trued up last night and
    they said that because of his size/weight (5'10" 190lbs) he should
    go for a 36hole wheel?  Any thoughts in this area ?

.12>     He was reading .7 and wanted to say that you guys have him pretty
.12>    well scared off !!  Wants to know if there a book that would help
.12>    or should he buy parts for a wheel and just start (trial & error)?

    I did the latter (buy parts and just start) and I think it's worked out
    fine. This note and others made me aware of the vital processes in
    wheel-building, such as stressing the spokes by ramming a screwdriver
    handle down the gaps, keeping the runout low (side to side and
    vertically) and flipping the wheel to gauge centering (I got it down to
    about 1/8th of an inch difference). I used the bike frame as a stand,
    and the brakes as the measuring point. 
    
    It's certainly very satisfactory to know you've built a wheel yourself,
    and you know where to go to complain if things go wrong. Also you hear
    interesting pinging noises coming from the wheel the first time you
    ride on it - another note discussed the reason for these, though not
    too conclusively as I remember. 
        
.12>    BTW, we had to take his rear wheel int be trued up last night and
.12>    they said that because of his size/weight (5'10" 190lbs) he should
.12>    go for a 36hole wheel?  Any thoughts in this area ?

    They might have a point. The fewer the spokes, the more load each
    bears, so the more likely it is to break.
    
    
    Rod

I weigh about 190 lbs right now, I train on 36 hole wheels, and race on 32 hole
wheels.  Neither set of wheels has budged any from how straight they were 
when I built them. I ride on such bad roads that I've broken a seat.

A well built wheel on a strong rim (GP4's or MA40's) should take more abuse
than your hands and posterior can.

Robb

(I dont use a truing stand when I build wheels, but I do use a dishing tool)

    
    	I've weighed well over 200 lbs {yes, WELL over} and managed
    quite well on skimpy wheels, on the other hand I've been 170 lbs
    and managed to crumple strong wheels.  Its not how much you weigh
    so much as how well you carry it, by which I mean how well you get
    the bike to carry it.  For the sake of your tail bones, more than
    the rims, learn to float over bad surfaces, potholes, etc.  Get
    most of your weight onto the pedals when you see the bumps coming,
    stand up and ride, tell yourself its all good hill training, whatever
    it takes to get off the sit_bones.  Keep spinning and keep the elbows
    bent, let the bike bounce up and down if it has to but let it come
    up to and go down from you.  This also reduces fatigue.

    	I understand the book to be quite good, I learned to build wheels
    by hanging out at bike shops when I was a kid.  Its all kinda intuitive
    if you look at a laced wheel for long enough and understand that
    there has to be roughly equal "give" for any attempted "take" when
    trying to pull a rim over.  One of the local maestros is Paul Randazzo
    at Category 1 in Tyngsboro, call him up some time, ask if he's
    building any wheels soon and can you watch while he talks through
    what he's doing and why {usual disclaimers about not mentioning
    my name :-^)}.  If there's enough interest I'm sure he'd put on
    a special demo for a sufficiently large group again, we had him
    come to the dec bike club once and do just that.
    
    	Reg