Conference noted::bicycle

    
    Mary,

    I saw you note about the $900 estimate for repairing the R400. If the 
    insurance agent checks with a C-dale dealer, they would know that a R-400
    will cost about $600-$650 new.

    So I would think it is easier to replace it then to repair it.

    Dave 

    

    
    
    Mary, I had such experience a few years back. Not all adjusters are 
    familiar with bikes and bike parts. The adjuster that came and looked
    at my bike did not recognize all the componants as I had many upgrades
    on that bike. To replace that bike with similar equipment would cost 
    me around $1500. The adjuster offerred something like $700. 
    I did not agree. But I also had a lawyer follow it up. It took almost a
    year or so but I got $4300 out of the accident. I might add that I was
    injured in the accident with some permenant scars on my leg. 
    The lawer said that if I were a female he could get more for the scars.
    Discrimination?  Are you ok yourself. did you get hurt in the accident
    at all, have you a lawyer?  
    
    Shaw

      
    re: .2
    
    I was knocked unconscious and don't remember a thing about the accident
    itself.  I 'woke up' in the ER about 3 hours later.  The physical
    damage was very localized to the right side of my face - stitches in my
    lip both inside and out, a major black eye and a dislocated nose (or so
    i'm told - they couldn't do anything for it but it hurt LOTS for a
    month! )  I also have some minor scars on my knees.
    
    Nonvisible damage - I basically couldn't remember much of anything for
    a week and it gradually has gotten better.  I'd say i'm back to about 
    90% at this point as far as being able to concentrate and having my 
    'old' memory capacity back.  Portions of my face and teeth have been
    numb since the accident but it is getting substantially better at this
    point - one month out.
    
    I do have a lawyer.
    
    And I do have a mountain bike that i've started riding again a week or 
    so ago....but i'm really craving a road ride on a real road bike!
    I really hope I don't have to wait too long to replace the R400.
    
    thanks for your replies!
    -mary
    
    

    There should be no difference in claim settlements whether you were
    riding a bike or a car.  Meaning the insurance company is going to
    politely offer to screw you.
    
    Their estimate is meaningless.  As the injured party you have a right
    to restitution for the value of your damaged property in full if their
    client has been found to be responsible.  You are not contractually
    obligated to the insurance company, and need not do anything they say. 
    It is your property, and you are the sole judge as to the method of
    repair or replacement.  
    
    F'rinstance, repair of your bike by your selected dealer is $900.  New
    is $1000.  They get "Guido's Body Shoppe" to say $500, and offer you
    $500.  A judge would award you $900, provided you are not having value
    added to the bike by the repair.  If they can determine the condition
    of the bike prior to the damage, then estimate the value in that
    condition, they may not be required to repair to "like new" condition.
    If they can locate a used machine in approximately the same condition,
    they can also legitimately offer that bike, or it's cost. You can buy a
    pair of shoes with the settlement money if you want - you are not
    required to have the property repaired or replaced.  You are only
    entitled to a fair restitution.  
    
    You could probably do this (the property damage) in Small Claims,
    depending on the amount of dispute, if there is a dispute.  Whether or
    not they will be fair was explained to me once by an adjuster.  If
    they can screw the public out of $100 for every accident, multiply that
    times the number of accidents, and you will find that they can pad
    their profits by millions every day.  Count on 1) losing money on the
    deal, or 2) fighting for it.  On the other hand, they may simply think
    that your estimate is fair.  Up to a certain limit, the adjuster can
    usually write you a check on the spot.  This is often cheapest for them
    for small claims.
    
    FYI, my only claim with auto insurance was basically a good experience,
    but then the car that hit my car was insured by the same company I had. 
    They really didn't have anybody to argue with.
    
    Good luck,
    		Mike

    
    Mary, 
    
    This person was at fault, and caused you pain and sufferring that 
    you have not yet recovered a hundred percent. Make sure that 
    your lawyer is familiar and *experienced* with bike accidents. 
    The lawyer I had was not, but still. For all the inconviniences 
    that you have been through you should be able to ride atleast a
    Cannondale R1000 ;-)
    
    Shaw

    Mary,
    
          Sounds like you do need a lawyer, the damage that you suffered
    sounds like it could stay around awhile, so you probaly should seek
    compensation as a protective measure.  I have seen adds by lawyers
    who are experienced at representing cyclists in Velonews, you can
    also probaly find a good lawyer by contacting the United States
    Cycling Federation or a bicycling avocacy organization such as LAW
    ( or whatever is the new name ).
    
    Dave,
    
         The value of a fitted bike depends upon what was on the bike.
    If everything was totaled, then the bike shop may be quoting today's
    replacement costs, the costs of components have gone up in price
    recently.  Mary should not accept anything which is less than what
    she had.                       

    I have a friend that does this for an insurance company (Cindy
    Zwicker). This is what happens (same for everything)...
    
    1st - You will get only what the bike is worth, not replacement
          value (unless you just rolled it out of the shop and got
          run over). Gnerally, there is a formula of depreciation
          used with "off the rack bikes" and custom bikes (which
          gets even more of a pain due to individual receipts...).
    
    2nd - Insurance companies don't like screwing with this piece
          is biffed, that piece is okay, etc... They'll do it as
          a fitted bike. My guess is that when you start adding in
          labor for taking this off and putting that on it pretty
          much washes with the adjuster's time and the depreciated
          cost of the parts...
    
    The laywerly advice is the most valuable input and where you should
    focus your attention. Here's where you'll get that money you need
    and deserve. O'Connor & Ryan (if you're in the Mass area) would be
    my recommendation. Ask for Ed Ryan and tell him Chip referred you
    to him... He's is (was) a very avid cyclist - rode with him often
    with his custom Peter Mooney - which a B-I-G plus in a case like
    this...
    
     Good luck!!!
    
     P.S. Tel. (508) 345-4166 

    
    Mary, 
    
    Something that I've learned when dealing with insurance companies.
    Never accept the first .... or second offer. You'll receive what's
    rightfully entitled to you as a result.
    It's all a negotiating game. It's similar to people who dicker on
    any and everything. The insurance companies are aware of and rely on
    the fact that most people don't. Ok, here's $400. for your $800.
    bicycle....and guess who gets the kudos come the next performance
    review for saving the company $$.
    Take the advice of the previous notes and get a good lawyer, you've
    definately got a lawyer's dream of a case so the sky's the limit
    on how far you want to persue this.
    Considering what you've endured in your accident my feelings would be
    that the cost of the replacement for the bike would be miniscule
    in contrast to the overall settlement.
    
    Best wishes for a speedy recovery and settlement !
    
    /todd                   

    
    
    Thanks for all the replies!
    
    I do have a lawyer that I'm already unsatisfied with....it seems I 
    should switch lawyers.  I wonder what is involved with switching at
    this point in time.  I guess I should just call a new one and ask
    them...
    
    
    -mary

    yes, I heard a lawyer's and court's opinions on that yesterday.  When
    you fire a lawyer you should only owe him for his time.  OF course, you
    should get a professional opinion on that.
    
    Btw, when my Trek 720 was totalled in 1984, the Ins co gave me $750 for
    it and I bought it back for salvage for $200.  Then they paid my Dr
    bills (actually reimbursed MTHP) and then gave me $200 to sign a
    release.
    
    ed

    Getting a new lawyer is easy. Just make sure you get your paperwork
    that the existing lawyer has accumulated so that you can do a hand-
    off to the new one...
    
    You've paid for it!
    
     Chip

    
    >     The value of a fitted bike depends upon what was on the bike.
    >If everything was totaled, then the bike shop may be quoting today's
    >replacement costs, the costs of components have gone up in price
    >recently.  Mary should not accept anything which is less than what
    >she had.                       

    RE:.6

    Very true, but considering Mary R400 has not changed in the past 3 years
    (RX100 components) I find it very hard for a insurance company to fork out
    over $900 when the exact new one cost $650-$700. Obviously, Mary bike
    probably had bottle cages, pump, computer etc... The insurance would have
    to take that in account also. But then again, how many insurance agents
    do their homework on checking out cost of new bicycles and worry about 
    a $200 difference. They could make up that $200 with dealing with car
    insurance. 


  

    
    In Mary's case it is not the damage to the bike that will pay up but
    the pain that she has suffered through a period of time and the fact
    the nothing might get hundred precent is worth a lot more. The *good*
    lawyer will dwell on that issue more than what components and
    accessories were lost/damaged in the accident.
    
    Shaw

     One thing gone unmentioned and I may not be telling you anything,
     but this thing could be a l-o-n-g process so strap in!
    
     Chip

    Chip,
    
         It will be long but worth it.  Based upon one of Mary's replies 
    she could be dealing with the effects of this accident for sometime,
    she has to protect herself finacially and not let a callous person
    walk away scot-free.
    
         Abe;
    

    Shaw


    Aren't the bike reimbursment and the actual injury compensation 
    2 different payments.

    I would think Mary would get the reimburstment on her bike and hospital
    cost in a short period of time since those are probably short term 
    issues for an issurance company. Then the lawyer should ask for other 
    damages that Mary got from the accident which should figure in the the 4
    digits. This could take one or several years depending on the settlement. 

    Is this how they do this or is it all settle at once?

    Dave

     Probably the bike thing will be settled separately under the
     insurance policy. The civil suit that might take place for something 
     above the coverage is obviously separate, e.g. injury, pain and
     suffering, negligence, disability, etc... are the objective
     aggregates that need to be determined...

    
    re: - Dave. 
    
    In my case, the adjuster came and saw the bike and obviously we did
    not agree with what he recommended the replacement value would be.
    However there was only *one* payment (the settlement out of court).
    This can take a long time especially if they other party thinks that 
    they might have an argument in court. By law they are to respond/settle
    within three years. The first offerring buy the insurance company was
    within a few months, we rejected it. after a couple of more weeks they
    offered a grand or so, we rejected it again. Then we didn't hear from 
    them for a while. Untill (7 or 8 months later) I got too anxious and 
    just wanted to buy another bike, but also had to consider an amount
    that after lawers 1/3 will still leave me enough to by a bike. 
    I called the lawyer up and told him that I wanted this case closed and
    do the best he can, his responce was the insurance company will
    probably  agree to settle and make payment if it didn't exceed $5000
    else they would probably stretch the matter. We got $4300. 
    Now my lawyer tells me that this guy was insured with Allstate which is
    the worst company to be fighting with. They just don't like to pay. 
    He claimed that if we were dealing with another insurance company we 
    would have gotten better results and faster response too. 
    
    Shaw
    

    A lawyers responsibility is to the court, the bar, and to their client,
    in that order.  The process can be very quick - the lawyers are the
    ones that are slow.  Get a kit, or hire a paralegal to help with the
    paperwork and file your own civil suit.  The slow part is the time the
    defendant is allowed to respond.  
    
    You can even go faster than that by speaking with your insurance
    commission and getting them involved.  If you have a legitimate claim
    (it sounds like you do) and you're getting stalled by the company, the
    commissioner has the power to make life so miserable for the company
    they will settle immediately.  This is how I ended a long term issue
    with Allstate many years ago.  It was less than 24 hours between my
    interview with the commission and receiving payment in full, plus
    interest I didn't even ask for.
    
    Good luck...

    
    Mary,
    
    	1) Get a good attorney *skilled* in this type of litigation.
    
    	2) DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING THE INSURANCE ADJUSTER OFFERS YOU UNTIL
           YOUR LAYWER LOOKS IT OVER.  THIS IS CRUCIAL!!
    
    	3) Be prepared, this may take years to come to full fruition,
           if you want a new bike soon, get your lawyer to work on that for
    	   you, he/she can probably make that happen.  Basically the other
    	   guys ins. co. pay off for the damage to the bike, but the phsycial
    	   and emotional damage will take a lot of negotiation (and time).
    
    
    
    

    Mary,
    
    The previous replies are all good advice, but remember the bike will be
    taken care of one way or another, the important thing is to get YOU
    back to 100%.
    
    Bob

This is being posted for a reader who wishes to remain anonymous.
				Your Moderator
				John A. Wasser

I was involved in a bicycle accident about seven years ago.  Without going 
into much detail, I had only minimal injuries (a broken nose) and my bicycle
was damaged but not totaled.

I found a good lawyer and the final settlement was in my favor for $53,000.
This was to cover pain and suffering, medical expenses, bike repairs and
I had to sign an agreement stating that I would not file any future 
lawsuits against the other party.
My lawyer, who originally negotiated for one third of the settlement, was
happy to take $10,000 from me as total payment.

If you have to dicker over a few hundred dollars or even a thousand dollars,
I'd say, get another lawyer.

BTW - I'd give you my lawyer's name, but he retired soon after.

RE: <<< Note 2783.22 >>>

>...I had only minimal injuries (a broken nose) and my bicycle was damaged but
>not totaled. 
>I found a good lawyer and the final settlement was in my favor for $53,000.

Only in America. People blame laywers for tying up the courts with outrageous
claims. It isn't the laywers.
						-- Tom

    
    Yep. America: Land of the lawsuit...
    
    Graham.

    
    Yep, and one of the reasons for major league insurance costs.
    Not surprised about the anonymity....
    
    Gus
    

    Linda had 3 fractures of the pelvis, one which may cause suturing
    of the SI joint, causing eventual severe pain or inability to
    endure chilbirth, spent 2 months bedridden and more months on crutches
    her Bianchi was destroyed.  Did a little better but after 1/3 to
    the shark, a little worse.
    
    ed

         I am dismayed to see the pre-judicial notes on the person who got
    the large cash settlement.  I have been injured in an bicycling
    accident where my $1000 bike was totaled.  The motorist was clearly at
    fault and was cited but I chose to replace my own bike and take a chance 
    that my bruises were not worse.  I made that decision after some deep 
    reflection, I respect anyone's right to make a different decision.  What 
    decision a person makes probaly is determined by their sense of how badly 
    they had been wronged, I plead that everyone respect the decision without
    making statements that are made without knowing the decision maker's thought
    processes.  Not all people who get large settlements from a lawsuit
    go into it with dollar signs in their eyes, some people only want 
    what they feel is justice and sometimes money is the only measuring stick.
    
    
          Abe;

    re: .27
    
    	I agree wholeheartedly with you Abe.  I was almost saddened to see
    	the negative replies to someone responding honestly to my inquiry.
    
    	Being in this situation is not one I think anyone would envy. 
    	Some people think I should be excited about getting a new bike,
    	but I'm not, I just wish the whole thing had never happened.
    
    	I unfortunately have some previous experience with injuries
	I received in a motorcycle accident.  I hated being involved with
    	the legal scene at that time too.  I hung in there for awhile and
        then settled about 1.5 years after the accident and signed the old
    	'you shall never bring this up again form'.  Well, now 7 years
    	later, I am having problems with the ankle and knee that I
        originally injured back then.  If I have to have any treatment at
        this point, I stand the chance of having to pay my own money for
        the results of something that was not my fault and was someone
        else's.
    
    
    	I don't know, the whole insurance/legal system baffles me.  I can
        certainly understand why someone would choose to remain apart and
        not deal with it at all.  But I can also understand why someone    
        may want monetary compensation for something that has completely
        disrupted their lives and cost money (totaled bike, destroyed
        clothes and outrageous medical bills for example)
    
    
    
        Maybe if everyone walked a mile in the other person's shoes for
        awhile we'd all have a better perspective on things.
    
    -mary
    

    <- Let's not rule out the consequence factor either. This may
       well serve the individual in the future and may save someone
       else from serious injury or even death... Just a quick look at
       the other side of the coin.
    
       Chip

    
    Just a quick note regarding the "long process" to be reimbursed for
    your bike.  I was involved in a car/bike accident last summer.  Like
    Mary's accident, this was clearly the driver's fault.  I had some bumps
    and bruises, but no serious injuries.  I had my bike fixed by my bike
    shop and presented the insurance with the $420 repair bill (my bike
    only cost me $650 two seasons earlier).  The insurance company paid me
    immediately.  I think they were so thrilled that I was not suing for my
    pain & suffering that they wanted to close the case quickly & make me
    happy.  Insurance companies aren't stupid.  $420 (or $900, for that
    matter) is peanuts compared to the cost of going to trial.
    
    
    
    Steve
     
    

    In my case, there were a couple of [odd] things important to me
    when my bike was trashed.  The husband of the errant driver had
    said "Well, Bikes don't have the right of way in New Hampshire!"
    and a few other offensive statements so I wanted this guy to remember
    me.  A friend of mine in the insurance biz at the time told me that if
    his company paid out more than $500 his rates would go up for 3 years.
    
    Can you guess what was important to me?  :-)
    
    ed

RE: <<< Note 2783.27 by LUDWIG::ASMITH >>>

>               -< Some things may not be what they appear to be >-

Indeed they may not be. The information that was offered in note 22 to describe
the events, however, made it seem to me that it was no big deal:

	"I had only minimal injuries (a broken nose) and my bicycle was damaged
	but not totaled."

Fifty three thousand dollars for a broken nose and a repaired bike? Seems about
ten times more than the costs involved.

>    Not all people who get large settlements from a lawsuit
>    go into it with dollar signs in their eyes, some people only want 
>    what they feel is justice and sometimes money is the only measuring stick.

Then I hope they give the money to charity.
						-- Tom

RE: <<< Note 2783.28 by LEZAH::ROCHE >>>

>        Maybe if everyone walked a mile in the other person's shoes for
>        awhile we'd all have a better perspective on things.

Here's an example of a wrongly-accused person's shoes. I bring it up just as a
counter-example; I do not mean that all suits are like the following one. 

My Mother was sued for the following traffic incident. She was waiting at an
intersection to turn left. She had a green light, but there was an oncoming
car. So my Mother stopped her car and sat there waiting for the other driver,
who had right of way, to proceed through the intersection. Just before the
other driver reached the intersection, the driver slammed on her brakes and
skidded to a stop right next to my Mother's waiting (unmoving) car. So far as
is known, the two cars never touched each other. That was the incident. 

A little while later my Mother gets sued by the other driver for all sorts of
injuries; inability to work; pain and suffering; lost wages; etc. About three
years later the case went to trial. After a week of testimony, the jury
deliberated for a few hours and found that my Mother had zero negligence in the
incident, and the case was dismissed.

It turns out that the other driver was sueing someone else for much of the same
things, claiming that they happened from ANOTHER incident about a year after
the one with my Mother. This other driver has problems in her life, and that is
too bad. But she was trying to stick my mother (and the defendant in the other
case) with false charges in hopes that this person would get some money from
somewhere. 

The net result was that my Mother experienced three years of tension,
inconvenience, expense etc. simply because of this other person's selfishness.

This in no way reflects on your case, Mary. And I hope it is somewhat unusual.
But the $53K payment reminds me of my Mother's case, where someone wanted to
get more than was right. 
						-- Tom

    
    re.-1 and .-2
    
    I agree with Tom's opinion. To me, the whole way that anonymous note
    was written was to say "Hey! Look what I was able to get out of the
    system! Push your luck and you might get lucky too!"
    
    $53K. The bike wasn't a right off, but there was damage and the lawyer
    took $10K. Let's say that the person was then left with $42K (and I
    believe that I'm over-cahrging the bike). How many years' salary is
    that? How long did the discmofort of a broken nose last?
    
    Ed, your's is a different case. An inability to suffer childbirth is
    something that your wife will have to suffer for the rest of her life.
    I can understand your feelings. But the anonymous noter's frivolous
    attitude implies to me that they were just out to see what they could
    get.
    
    Graham.

    Kinda uppity responses here... Who is anyone in here to place a value
    judgement on an injury, physical or emotional? I won't...
    
    I'm not taking a posture of unscrupulous/frivolous don't exist. Of
    course they do and innocent people will get screwed until the end
    of time... I've had a broken nose. I've known people who've had 
    worse than mine. I've sat watching TV a month later and started
    bleeding profusely from it... Scared the beegeebers outa me, but
    was told later to expect it. 
    
    Don't presume to tell anyone a broken nose isn't worth $53k. You simply
    don't know...
    
    My $.02

    
    I agree with Chip ;-) It is not our place to judge peoples actions.
    A crooked noise on ones face for the rest of their lives, aside from
    the bleeding and other health upredictable future problems, is a
    permenant damage to ones face. 
    
    Shaw

    
    
    hi again...
    
    	I do agree with you all that the way the anonymous note reads,
    	it does sound like it was no big deal and it does seem like 
    	a LARGE sum of money for what happened.
    
    	All, I'm saying is that what the note says does not necessarily
    	accurately and completely represent what went on.  Seven years is a 
    	long time and luckily enough I think people tend to be able to 
    	forget painful things after time has passed.
    
    	The tone of the anonymous note notwithstanding - another thing
    	to remember is ...you get hurt in an accident, you decide to get
    	a lawyer and then in my experience it feels pretty much out of your
    	hands.  How many people interview their lawyer to obtain their
    	moral and ethical stand on things?  (Maybe something I will start
    	doing - but in my experience the whole thing is so upsetting, I
    	just want to hand the problem to someone else who supposedly has
        the skills to deal with it legally so that I can return to my
        normal routine ASAP) After some long period of time, they tell you
    	what the settlement is.  If at that point, you got told it was
        $53K, would you say, oh, that's too much?  I concur though with
    	what someone else said, that in this case, it would certainly seem
    	reasonable to donate some portion of the settlement to a worthy
    	cause.  [And it certainly could be the case that the client pushed
    	for and directed the lawyer to obtain as much money as possible,
    	by whatever means.]
    
    	Unfortunately, it is a reality that some people take complete
    	advantage of how messed up the legal and insurance systems are.
        I too have heard recounts of situations where people are soley 
        trying to get money for something which never happened 
    	(the accident where no accident really occured) or are greatly
    	modifying reality to make it sound much worse.
    
    	Emotionally, being accused of something you know did not happen
    	is VERY upsetting and stressful.  When you are involved in an
    	accident or a near-accident, you are upset and if someone starts
    	to accuse you of things, you start to think, well maybe I did do
    	something wrong.
    
    	The motorcycle accident I was in, initially the driver of the car
    	accepted at least some portion of the liability, but then about
    	3 months after the accident, all of a sudden his insurance company
    	said that they now had a witness who claimed it was my fault!
    	
    	Said witness *never* materialized.  But it sure made me start to
    	second guess myself over the whole thing.  It's not like you are
    	recording all aspects of your environment and what you are doing
    	when you are driving, riding or whatever.	
    
    	enough of my rambling...
    	
    -mary

RE: <<< Note 2783.37 by LEZAH::ROCHE >>>
    
>    	All, I'm saying is that what the note says does not necessarily
>    	accurately and completely represent what went on.  

Indeed, Mary, that's a possibility. For example, the note doesn't offer the
observations of the defendant in the case, or any mitigating factors, etc. I
felt compelled to comment on the information that was offered.
						-- Tom

>    	"       How many people interview their lawyer to obtain their
>    	moral and ethical stand on things?"
    
    Heh heh heh...  presumably a little humor to lighten things up a little?
    
    :^)