Conference noted::bicycle

    This one isn't easy... It might be the shoes or placement of the
    cleats or a combination of both.
    
    One other thing, many riders (including myself sometimes) have a
    tendency to curl the toes when working hard. Prolonged tension
    could definitely cause cramping. 
    
    Other obvious stuff is staying hydrated and maintaining potassium
    levels. If this stuff isn't the cause, she should seek professional
    attention.
    
     Chip
    

    Well, this looks like a good place for this...
    
    I have a similar foot problem.  After riding approximately an hour I'll
    sometimes/often get a pain in the second, third, and/or fourth toes of
    my left foot (not the pinky toe, the three in the middle).  Sometimes
    more than one toe will hurt.  It SEEMS to happen more quickly if I'm
    pushing harder, but this may be just perception.  I'm using Nike Ultra
    shoes that have the three velcro straps and I've tried them tight AND
    loose.  Doesn't seem to matter.  Once it starts, the pain comes on VERY
    quickly - from comfortable and pain free to quite painful in a matter
    of minutes.  Curling and uncurling my toes doesn't help - I have to get
    off the bike and take the shoe(s) off.  5 minutes of leaving the shoe
    off and I'm ready for another 45 minutes or so...  It doesn't FEEL like
    a cramp, the toe or toes just plain HURT!  It also happens on the right
    foot, but it doesn't happen as quickly.
    
    FWIW: I had the same problem with ski boots, had custom insoles made
    and tried all kind of things.  The cure was to break a boot, and when
    replaced with the new, different, boots - no more pain even with the
    same footbeds and such.
    
    When it happened yesterday I decided I was hitting my toes against the
    front of my shoes (even though this is unlikely as easily as I was
    riding) so I tightened up the straps and locked my foot back against
    the heel.  Still had the problem after another 45 minutes or so.  
    
    Unfortunately, because it takes so long for the pain to start, I can
    put on any shoe in the store and it may feel fine.  Even walking around
    for an hour doesn't tell me anything.  I'm baffled enough that I'm
    thinking about trying a podiatrist.

    Just of curiosity .0 and .2, do you normally wear a wide shoe (E,EE)?
    Nobody makes a wide touring shoe, and I sure wish they would.  (New
    Balance makes widths for mtn bikes, but not touring... I have to
    go with 4E (2E too narrow) in New Balance).  kb

    To .0
    
         Chip may have had a point in pointing out Potassium levels and
    hydration.  In your note from about a month ago you seemed to have
    been talking about the same woman that you are discussing here.  My
    opinion then is that she had over exerted, I feel that she may be 
    having the same problem now.  During the past I have had foot cramps
    after finishing rides, they were so painful that all I could do was
    grimace until they went away, they always happened after I had ridden
    well past my training base limits.  Once I started paying attention
    to monitoring my distance and slowly increasing it I have not had the
    foot cramps again.  Back to one of Chip's points, one way I have of
    telling when I am going beyond my limits is to monitor my drinking
    and how much I sweat, if I'm drinking ok but my sweating is dropping
    off then I turn the bike around and head for home, hoping that I don't
    drop before I make it - when I used to have the foot cramps I used to
    ignore this sign and paid the price, IMOP.
    
    
    To .2
    
         Your problem sounds strange, but since I have an opinion on 
    everthing anyway I'll give it a shot.  I used to have a problem
    that could be called hot-toe.  Basically what happened is that my big toe
    on both feet would start burning along with the balls of my feet.
    The amount of burning was not uniform from foot to foot, one foot
    could be worse than the other.  Early on I figured that the problem
    was due to the saddle putting pressure on my rear, causing circulation
    problems.  A break came several years ago when I needed to buy new cycling 
    socks, I had been using polyester type socks but purchased a wool blend set.
    I noticed immediate and dramatic improvement with the hot toe problem.
    I have since moved from the wool blends to coolmax socks and have 
    pretty much eliminated the problem.  The interesting thing is that I
    too used to be able to solve my problem by getting off the bike and 
    taking off my shoes during rides.  The best guess that I have is that I
    was building up hot spots within my socks ( or sweat ) as I road and 
    my socks were probaly enhancing the problem.
    
        Abe;
    

    
    I don't believe this to be a hydration/potassium problem. If it was,
    the cramps would far more likely to be in the legs. Besides, the
    problem is better with toe clips, and I don't suppose that the toe
    clips are hydrating you...  :*)
    
    How tight is your clipless pedal? This type of problem is often because
    the foot isn't getting enough free movement, and the pain is caused by
    the foot constantly straining. If they are adjustable, loosen off the
    spring tension. If not, then you may have to consider buying
    adjustables or something like the Look arcs that allow movement.
    
    Also, look at the shoes. Are the clipless pedals used with the same
    shoes as the toeclips? I'd guess not, in which case, decide where the
    pain is and have a look at that part of the shoe. If it is too tight,
    then you may want to slit it to allow your foot more space.
    
    Graham.

    Just re-read .0 and noticed she is riding Times. Implies that the
    second paragraph of my note is less likely, but if it is the case, then
    she is going to have trouble with clipless since Time already have
    movement.
    
    Graham.

    <- Picky...

    
    :*P
    
    (as Chip and Graham go into another mature, thought provoking
    argument :*)
    
    Graham.

    
    
    Actually she is using toe clips right now.  She had removed the TIMES
    before her trek in Holland.  She said she has always had the pain with
    and without clipless but it seems far worse with the toe clips.
    
    Like I said she is in such pain that it brings her to tears.  It
    usually occurs about 15-20 minutes after she stops riding and they
    last for about the same time.   
    
    I will ask her about the toe curling.  As far as liquids go, she drinks
    sufficient on her rides.  At least the ones I have gone on with her.
    It could be over excersion but in Holland it was flat and she was with
    a group that really didnt push and she still had the problem.
    
    Thanks for the input Ill show them to her and see if any of it strikes
    home.  
    
    Any more suggestions are welcome.
    
    MikeR
    
    
    

    
    
    The title should have read "she is riding with toe clips now"
    I guess it would be kind of hard to "run" with them on.
    
    MikeR

     Graham, I always enjoy it when we sink to the intellectual 
     bowels of the argument. I'm sure the audience is amused! :-)
    
     This stuff makes my morning... Coffee, NOTES, and bustin' chops!
    
     Chip

I occasionally get sudden very painful muscle cramps in my feet after rides,
sometimes hours later, sometimes at night in bed. The only way to get immedaite
relief is to walk them out.  I told my doctor about the cramps and was given a
perscription for quinine tablets. The tablets are cheap and regarded as safe.
Work like a charm, if I start getting  the cramps I take the tablets for a day
at the most and they go away for a long time, like for weeks and months, like
for many many months.

In the summer I often drink iced quinine water and lime juice (no Gin) after a
ride to re-hydrate. The doctor said that I would have to drink more 4-6 bottles
of quinine water to come close to one tablet. If I do 2 12oz bottles a day the
cramps seem to stay away. Drinking quinine water is not everybody's favorite
from what I hear but the tablets do not have the bitter taste (if you don't chew
them). If you try the quinine water route read the label to be sure the product
has real quinine and not quinine flavor.  

     Have you tried stretching after hammering?
    
     Chip

    
    
    She usually does some stretching after her rides.  The foot problem just
    seems to come on and so stretching stops it.  She does find some relief
    in messaging her foot while it is hurting.  
    
    One thing she did mention to me yesterday is that when she is riding
    her toes start to get numb after about 20 miles.  Im not sure if this
    is connected but it seems like it may.
    
    Quite a mystery I guess.
    
    MikeR
     

    
    How tight does she have the toe strap. Sounds like she may be
    over-tigtening and resyticting blood flow to the toes. That would cause
    both the numbness and the cramp...
    
    Graham.

    Well, from .2 (the sore toes) I'm still trying things...
    
    It should be warm enough this weekend for me to switch to the really
    thin socks so I'll give that a try.  So far nothing else seems to make
    much difference.  I've been trying to remember to tighten the straps on
    the shoes so my toes can't hit the front of the shoe just to make SURE
    that isn't the reason for the pain, but so far it still kicks in after
    about an hour or so...  very puzzling!
    

    the middle toes are all linked through a nerve that's near the ball of
    the foot.  If that nerve were pinched, I'd expect numbness rather than
    pain.  I have no other ideas to contribute.
    
    ed

    
    
    Well, I think she has resolved her problem.  
    This past weekend she put her TIME clipless back on and after a couple
    of rides she is no longer getting the foot cramps.  Her toes are still
    getting a little numb but she can live with that.  
    
    Thanks again for all the help and advice.
    
    MikeR