Conference noted::bicycle

    	BICYCLING did a comparison of the two shifting system within
    	the last two years.
    
    	I remember that the Grip Shift had about 10 moving parts; the
    	Rapidfire had about 40. Thus, I assume the grip shift is easier
    	to adjust and work on. I've heard that you need a trained mechanic
    	to work on rapid fire.
    
    	Scott

    I have rapidfire+ and am very happy with it.  The Bicycling article
    mentioned that it's much harder with grip shift to shift and brake at
    the same time, which I do a lot. (maybe I should learn not to be a
    chicken and just not brake!)  

    There are various levels of Gripshift, make sure you do an
    apple-to-apple comparison.  Gripshift is becoming extremely popular in
    at all levels.  Also, if it is Gripshift, what is the quality of the
    brake levers they are using.  I have seen some pretty cheap stuff.
    
    Unfortunately, all new systems will screw up with a good fall..., no
    manual override. 
    
    steve

    I was happy with my RapidFire right up until the point it broke
    (after about 2 years).  Despite the little rubber plugs, dirt
    and grime ends up getting in there and it eventually fails.
    Once it does, it's literally impossible to fix, and a total refurb
    kit costs just as much as the top-of-the-line Grip Shifts...
    so I went with GripShifts.  It took me about 10 seconds to fall
    in love with the GripShifts.  The only thing I miss is the ability
    to brake hard and shift at the same time, and even that's possible
    with GripShifts and a little finesse.  Kratz

Which is better?  The one you like best.  That's what it comes down to.

I was skeptical last September when I first started looking at new
mountain bikes.  It seemed that everyone was going to GripShift for
1995.  In reality, about 50% of all bike models (industry wide) will 
have GripShift in '95, which is an amazing factoid.

I rode and tested both in my shopping, and decided that I like GripShift.
GripShift is *not* new...it has been around for years, and the design 
has been considerably refined and improved.  I always think about things 
like Shimano's rear U-brake that took the industry by storm in 86/87...
and then was even more promptly dumped after reality set in.

Indisputable facts about GripShift:

    - It is a U.S.A. technology.  I don't "Buy American no matter what",
        but if American technology is competitive in price and quality, 
        I'm happy to.  [My analogy about Shimano is that they were becoming 
        the Microsoft of mountain biking, and I think everyone will win now 
        that Shimano is getting some serious competition.]

    - It is lighter than RapidFire+.  Not only that, but it allows
        you to use after market brake levers to further lighten
        your bike.

    - It is much less complex than RapidFire+.  But wait a minute...how 
        often does one *really* need to do more than adjust a cable?  It 
        doesn't appear to be any more or less prone to failure.

    - It is taking the racing scene by storm.  But GripShift is smart, and 
        has a big time race promotion program.  Don't think for a second 
        that all racers have paused and pondered and carefully weighed all
        the pros and cons, and then made independent unbiased decisions to 
        switch: they and their teams are being "encouraged".  On the other 
        hand, if it adversely affected their race performance, they wouldn't 
        use it.

More disputable is the claim that GripShift is ergonomically superior.  I 
don't think so.  As has already been mentioned, it does take some fancy 
contortions to brake and shift at the same time.  The winner is a matter 
of individual taste.

There's also a second-order ergonomic effect of GripShift: note that GripShift
uses a chunk of your handlebar space.  This means that your brake levers are 
placed more to the inside, and further away from your fingers, resulting in 
an ergonomic disadvantage.  Brake lever manufacturers are starting to 
compensate for this by providing either longer levers, or offset units.

Jim

    Thanks for your constructive answers, It is late night shopping here
    tonight so I am going to visit a few bike shops and see what is up for
    grabs. 
    
    The Gripshift technology has been around in various guises for a number
    of years now. I am English and if any of you are English and fairly
    youngish you will possibly remember a kids bike made by Raleigh called 
    the Grifter. This was quite literally a tank of a bike, sturdily made and
    weighing in at around 1 tonne, but joking aside, had a very primitive
    form of gripshift (not made by Gripshift BTW). A three speed 'throttle'
    style shifter using a Sturmey Archer 3 speed gear set which had an
    extremely dangerous slip gear which would always take you by suprise
    when you went to change gear and ended up smashing your kneecap into
    the handlebars. I did this many times in my earlier days as did most of
    my friends. I now wonder why such a dangerous machine was ever
    produced and released on to the market but I digress. 
    
    I used to have XT Rapidfire+'s, what is the Gripshift equivalent of
    this level of shifter. I am in Australia now and the cost of anything
    imported is pretty astronomical especially bike parts. I thought
    England was expensive, you Americans would all have heart attacks if
    you came over and saw some of the ridiculous prices. Because of the
    expense involved, the best I can really afford would be SRT600's
    although possibly SRT800's if I am lucky. How do these two systems rate?      
    Also I am going to have a look at some Kona's later on, can anyone give
    a breif evaluation of the Kona AA as this seems to be a nicely specced
    bike that is just about in my price range.
    
    One good thing about Australia however is the amount of nice biking
    weather we get when compared to England and also there are many decent
    trails around Sydney too. Whats more I read somewhere that the World
    Cup is coming to Thredbo soon, this is only a couple of hours away so
    it will be good to go and watch.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    David.
    
    
        
     

    re:.6 You should do what many over in Aussie land do, have your
    travelling friends buy for you when they are travelling to the states.
    
    steve

I bought into the Gripshift hype last fall.   I like it for the most part 
(but I liked my top mounts better).   

A couple of comments:

	1.  It works well for the rear deraileur but the front is less than 
desireable (mine is last years 500 series, and the front  shifter requires 
quite a bit of rotation to change chainrings.  This has "almost" caused 
catastrophic results when downhilling by  having my wrist twisted way down 
and hitting a good sized bump. I've read that this problem no longer exists 
with the '95 Grip Shift.   Keep your cables clean/lubed and it'll work 
great.

	2.  I like to bunny hop.  When hopping, you get the front end over 
the obstacle, then you shift your weight forward while twisting your grips 
forward (to raise the rear end over the obstacle).  More than once I've 
dumped several gears because my hand was on the shifter a bit when I began 
the jump.  This leaves you in a VERY low gear when you land.  Consequently, 
you land, start to pedal and spin wildly because your undergeared.  As you 
can imagine, this can also have catastrophic results. 

	3.  There is an issue if you want to use a 1 piece bar/barend 
combo, the the grip shift must be cut with a razor knife.  This works but 
may void the warranty.  Probably best left to a bike shop.

 
	Other than the intermittent problems I have, I like them.  They 
were cheap, light and I can adjust the angle of my break levers independent 
of the shifter, another big plus.

Mike

I recently upgraded my Gripshift to 800 X-Ray.  Performance is great.  The 
front shifter is real short throw.  3 clicks between chainrings.  I am 
using a Shimano LX front deraileur.

The rear works great also.   Until the rear cable houseing got dirty.  Then 
 it was still great going up the cogs, but when I came back down the XT 
rear deraileur spring wasn't strong enough to pull the chain down.  I had 
to move the chain more than 1 cog at a time...VERY annoying.   So,  I heard 
about this option from gripshift, called the Bassworm.  It provides 2 
functions.  

	1.  It acts as a 2nd deraileur spring,  making upshifts and 
            downshifts smooth.

	2.  It acts as a seal,  keeping dirt/water out of the rear 
            deraileur cable housing.

I've had the Bassworm for 3 weeks and it still shifts like a dream.  
Without it I had to lube the R.D. Housing after every ride.  I havn't had 
to touch it since.

I seriously recommend the "Bassworm" for anyone with Gripshift.  It cost 
$12 dollars at my local shop...although some catalogues have it for $8.

Mike 

    Tell me more (i have 800 X-Rays) like what's it look and attach to...
    
    Chip

    I put the worm on when I installed the shifters - I can't even tell you
    what it's like without it. 
    
    Basically, it looks like a worm.
    
    Sorry, I couldn't resist.  Normally, starting from the rear derailleur,
    the cable goes through the jacket, and the jacket is seated in a
    braze-on seat.  The cable thence meanders on up to your handlebars.
    
    The Bassworm is a piece of transclucent (worm colored) surgical tubing
    with a do-hickey on one end and a collar with a set screw on the other.
    
    The do-hickey sits in the braze-on instead of the cable jacket, and the
    jacket seats in the do-hickey.  I'm sure this is a clear picture, but
    it's not really that important.  The important part is that the cable
    feeds through the worm before it meanders up to the shifters, and the
    do-hickey fixes one end of the worm to your frame.
    
    What you do is s-t-r-e-t-c-h the worm up the cable, and use the set
    screw to fix the *other* end of the worm to the cable.  Thus, the worm
    is pulling the cable back towards the derailleur.  As you shift down,
    it stretches the worm, and increases the tension.  This makes it easier
    to shift up (the direction normally assisted only by the deraileur
    spring).
    
    I don't know why the spring tension is insufficient for these shifters,
    but it does make a difference - I increased the tension a couple times
    before I was happy with the result.
    
    It costs about seven bucks.  It's worth it just to be able to say you
    installed a bass worm on your bike.
    
    Later,
    	   Mike

    New subject - I got tired of fixing the rapid fire (very old) so I
    popped for the Grip Shifts.  Actually, they were cheaper.  I put some
    Tekro (?) levers on with the shifters, and made the bike about two
    pounds lighter in the bargain.
    
    I used to wonder about the people complaining about braking and
    shifting simlutaneously with GS.  Who would do that, anyway?  Of
    course, the first thing I did was nearly bean myself on a tree trying
    to shift and brake at the same time.  It takes some getting used to.
    
    Anyway, over the 4th I made time for a ride through the country, and
    learned something new about the Grip Shift.  The first thing on my body
    to give out was my forearms.  After a couple of hours, I was just about
    ready to do anything to avoid shifting gears.
    
    It was mainly moving the between the chainrings, which is a pretty good
    tug on my bike.  I wonder if putting a bass-ackwards-worm on the front
    derailleur would help?
    
    I guess my training regimen should now include wrist-curls...
    
    Mike

    
    	I have Gripshifters on my bike, and the rear derailleur seems to
    	have a problem with upshifting.  And the thing that seems strange
    	to me is that the lower gear is bigger in size than the higher
    	gear, and closer to the wheel, and the derailleur seems to have no
    	problem stretching the chain around the bigger gear ... but when
    	it has to upshift, and move from a big gear to a small gear, it
    	"lags", so to speak.
    
    	Maybe it's just an adjustment ... we'll see.  The bike's only 2
    	weeks old, so I don't want to take it in for the free check-up
    	[30-day] yet in case something breaks in the next 2 weeks ...
    	even though it already has about 185 miles on it.
    	

    You could either have a bind in a cable, a cable that was not properly
    trimmed, or the current complaint of Shimano's springs being a lot
    softer, thereby making gripshifts lag a bit.  Gripshift make a piece of
    rubber tubing, gripworm or something like that, which helps.  
    
    Goretex shift cables also help.
    
    Of course it could be simply a derailleur adjustment
    
    steve

    >>  Of course it could be simply a derailleur adjustment
    	
    What??? And deny shawn of more opportunities to spend money on his new
    toy???  Surely you jest!  :-).

    Brian is right. Shawn, write directly to Shimano (Japan) c/o their
    R&D group. Get the specifications from them (FAX'd collect of course).
    
    Pull all of your components and the mic'd and fluxed just to make sure 
    it isn't just a simple adjustment that's required :-).

    
    	If the worm doesn't work I'll buy a new derailleur.
    
    	Then if that doesn't work I'll try an adjustment on the old one.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    I thinks the solustions are, Gortex cables, high end grip shifts or 
    rapid fire plus. 
    BTW, has anyone seen the new Shimano shifters, I saw only a picture
    in one of the bike mags a few months back. It appeared as the shifters
    were monted on the break levers. 
    
    Shaw

	More than likely a new derailleur won't help much either, since
	even Deore XT derailleurs have the same problem (wimpy return spring).

	The BassWorm should help out - if not I think there are heftier 
	return springs available. Or you can go for a Sachs New Success 
	derailleur ($$$) which is supposed to work very well w/ GripShift. 

	Try fiddling with the adjustment barrel on the GripShift - try one
	turn in each direction top see if it makes a difference. For your
	problem, you probably need to slacken up the cable just a bit. 

	/ken
	

    Shawn, make the shop fix it, period. You've got (like) no miles on that
    thing. You shouldn't be having any problems with it. If it does require
    an "assitance" product, e.g. bassworm, they should pay for it.
    
    Chip

    Two years ago, my brand new road bike had too much drivetrain noise. 
    It was my first bike with indexed shifting.  At the suggestion of this
    conference, I adjusted the rear derailleur using the procedure
    described in 1993.19.
    
    Yes, the store would have done it for me for free but it took me less
    time to do it myself than to drive to the store and back.
    
    Erik

    
    	Oh, I know ... that's what I'll probably end up doing.  It just
    	seemed strange to me that the derailleur seems to have trouble
    	shifting in what appears to be the easier direction.
    
    	RE: Shaw
    
    	I saw a street racer at Landry's that had those shifters.  I bel-
    	ieve it was a Cannondale, and the shifters are inside the brake
    	levers on the drop bars ... so to shift, you slide the levers with
    	your index fingers.
    

    The shift-levers-in-the-brake-levers from Shimano are called STI
    and are standard for virtually their entire line (DuraAce, Ultegra,
    105, RX100) for '95.  Campagnolo has an equivalent (and some say
    better, including me) system called ErgoPower.
    
    Do a SEARCH "STI" and you'll find out more than you wanted to know.
    Kratz

    -1 you're Kratz, they are better...
    
       now duck, i think i hear incoming :-)
    
       Chip

    
    
    No folks, I'm not talking about STI. I have a Kestrel 4000 with STI 
              (DuraAce ). The Shifters I'm talking about are MTB special
              they look likt the current rapid fire plus (except these 
              in the picture were chrome) but they are place on top of 
              the break lever. 
    Shaw

    they weren't thumb shifters, were they? you know, those old, obsolete,
    and anti-ergonomic disasters...

    
    No they were not thumb shifteres, the levers are exactly like 
    Rapid fire plus, except they are sitting on the break lever 
    I guess I need to go back to the mag and copy the picture. 
    Or we will probably see them on the market next year for year end 
    MTBs. 
    
    Off the subject, everyone be easy on your riding this weekend. 
    Go to the beach or the mountains were its cooler and ride. 
    Drink plenty of fluids.....
    
    Shaw

    I personally feel if Gripshift can get their derailleur into mass
    production this fall, they are going to make a significant inroad on
    the OEM market above $800.  Who knows in a few years we may actually
    have a reasonably price all american bike.
    
    steve

    
    
    I feel  Gripshift need some design improvement or I need more practice
    ;-)
    
    I am currently in the market for a third MTB, either a Y22 or ProFlex
    855. My first upgrade would be to diss the Gripshifts for a set of 
    Rapidfire plus, (actually the 855 I rode had the Rapidfire plus
    already). 
    
    I do some nasty trails that have sudden drops or climbs and need to
    be able to shift fast and accurately.  For X-crountry cruising the
    GS are probably ok. 
    
    Shaw

    -1 no kidding? i've found no deterioration in the speed of shifting.
       
       i think i'll like the shifters. it's just an adjustment to go from
       rapids to grips...
    
       on the other topic... funny how a design would go back to the
       placement of a shifter that is basically outdated and has been 
       panned (in comparison to rapids and grip shifters) by all the
       big rags...
    
       Chip

The shifters that are being talked about are the new for 96 model year 
rapid fire shifters.  They are not yet available.  Word is that they are 
lighter, have fewer moving parts and will be available without integrated
brake levers.  They will be available on at least the xt and xtr line.
Look for them in the fall time.  By the way I believe they are machine AL 
not chrome.

Me I want to check out the V brake when they are available...

Now to get completely off the subject, not hard around here, anyone doing the 
'working mans race' this week?  If so what cat?  I will be doing cat 5 35+...


Scott