Conference noted::bicycle

    	Hi Tim,
    
    		Always nice to see someone thinking about getting started
    again, especially after a loooonnnnngggggg rest.  You will probably
    hear the following advice/reasoning a lot from seasoned bikers,
    despite your insistance that you only intend to be a casual rider;
    
    	First find a bike that fits you, or can be fitted to you.  There
    has been a tendency for a long time to sell people the biggest frame
    possible without regard to their proportions.  Nominal frame size is a
    measure of the length of the seat tube, however that is only a minor
    part of the "fit" since your upper body dimensions determine what the
    top tube length should be.  (Its a lot easier to raise the saddle a
    little more than it is to change the stem length.)  Beware of
    shops/salesfolks who just have you stand astride a bike and check the
    top tube to crotch clearance, if thats all they check you should
    question them about your upper body length vs top tube length, if they
    don't respond sensibly then you should find another store. The first
    question is whether you are long legged vs short legged for your
    height, women typically are longer legged for their height than are
    men.  There is a lot more to proper fit than this, but its one of the
    main points.  Its a reasonable question these days to go in a bike shop
    and when they ask, "can I help you ?", say, "Yes, I'm thinking of
    buying a bike but I want one that really fits me, tell me how you
    ensure a good fit ?" 
    
    This is a tough one;  how much do_you_want_to/are_you_willing_to 
    spend ?   Its the same with a lot of things, junk at the bottom and
    diminishing returns at the top.  More money spent in the bottom quarter
    of the price range will typically get you a better frame material,
    better wheels, better components, etc.  More money at the top quarter
    of the range will be for (diminishingly small) weight savings, "what
    the REAL racers use", and pretties.  My own priorities are; Frame,
    frame, frame, frame, wheels, wheels, other components.  This is
    also decending order of cost to upgrade, i.e. its very expensive
    to change a frame (though you might have to if the fit is really
    bad, see above), wheel upgrade could be 1/3 to 1/2 as much as a
    frame swap, other components (assuming you don't change everything)
    can be upgraded for far less.
    
    There are (at least) two major schools of thought on "how much you
    should spend when restarting".  The first says something like, "get the
    best bike you can afford, you'll use it more because you will enjoy it
    more, and its cheaper than buying a low cost bike and losing a lot of
    money when you decide what you really want and trade-up."  The other
    major camp says, "don't put too much money into a bike at first, you
    may not like it, but if you do you can always buy a real good one when
    you get more *bike_literate*."  I can understand a new buyer falling
    into either of these camps.  Lets see, this is VERY subjective but I'll
    say that going over $600 is not likely to get you good value until you
    know precisely what you want and why. At the other end less than $200
    will rarely get an adequate bike, despite the department store ads.  As
    a bare minimum you should be looking for a name brand quality frame
    tubing and alloy rims, around $220.  I guess I'm saying that its
    a personal choice for you, but the range is $220 - $500 or so. 
    
    One way of scaling prices is against monthly car payments, for the
    equivalent of two or three car payments you can get a pretty good bike,
    another reference point is health club memberships.  A decent bike
    will outlast a car and certainly outlast most of the health club
    deals.  If you don't think of the bicycle as a kids toy for grown
    ups you can avoid thinking of bike prices in toy dept terms.
    
    	Well, if none or some of this make sense give me a call.  I'm
    in Marlborough and can find time to go around the local stores with
    you if you wish. 
    
	Reg	(297-4484)

    

    
    	I'm surprised that Reg didn't mention the bike fitting methods
    such as the 'Fit Kit' and 'Acu-Fit' that have been developed. (Actually
    I think he's embarrased at how much they can help even a top rider
    like him.)   I wouldn't even deal with a store that didn't use one
    of these systems.  Since most cheap bikes use steel rims, which
    don't allow good stopping when wet, I'd immediatly rule out the
    K-Mart Huffys, Sears Free Spirits, bottom of the line Schwinns,
    etc for a safety reason alone.  My advise would be to find a good
    store, get measured/fitted (find out what dimensions a bike should
    have to fit you best), and then go shopping with this set of numbers
    as a guide.  If a store tries to sell you something outside your
    fit numbers, or refuses to modify the bike (by changing the stem,
    etc), turn around and walk out!  You can make the decisions on how
    fancy the bike should be, but make sure it fits and is safe! - Chris

.1 and .2 have excellent advice. One thing neither mentioned 
specifically was getting a decent crankset. Even the cheapest alloy 
cotterless crankset and lightyears ahead of a steel cottered crank in 
terms of smoothness, strength, and getting your power to the ground. 
Those of you out there WITH steel cranks, it's a relatively cheap way to 
upgrade your bike. Easy to do, too. If you're a strong (or heavy) rider, 
strong alloy cranks are near essential.

And don't forget the most important component on any bike - a helmet 
that the rider wears EVERY time he rides the bike........

                                             ken

I agree with the previous replies but there are a few other things worth
mentioning. 

1. Only deal with a bike shop that has a good reputation for standing behind
their products, assembling bikes properly and helping to educate their
customers. A good working relationship is important when things go wrong with
the bike or if you get hooked on bikes and want to upgrade etc.

2. Only buy a bike with quick release hubs. You'll be glad you did when you 
get a flat or put the bike in the back of your car etc. Bikes with quick 
release hubs are generally good bikes and usually come with good wheels (i.e.
alloy rims also a must) and decent components.

3. Test ride the bikes you are interested in. If they won't let you test ride 
their bikes then you're in the wrong bike shop. But remember, if the bike is not
the proper size, a test ride will not give a good indication of whether the 
bike is the right bike for you.

Good luck, but watch out, these machines can be addicting. They are not the
same toys that one had as a child.

                                        Keith

    re (.2 re .1)	Thanks Chris, I should have place FAR MORE EMPHASIS
    on the steel rim issue.  Almost none of us goes out to buy a bike for
    rain riding (though I have been suspected of doing so), but it
    eventually happens that we get caught out in it.  I don't know of many
    surfaces that are more slippery than wet chrome, there may be brake
    blocks around now which are able to handle it, but I have no intention
    of trying them.
    
    	Yes, Fit Kit and Accu-fit are probably the best known systems
    for fitting, I think Ben Serotta's scheme is "Size-cycle" or something
    like that, I believe the Bicycle Exchange in Cambridge uses it.
    Anyway, Chris saw me get helped last monday night with the Fit Kit,
    even a 1cm saddle height adjustment can make a real difference.  Maybe
    I'll get some personal bests this year, if the aging curve doesn't
    intersect with the training curve. 

    	I also didn't get down to brand names or specific stores, though
    several of us have listed our favorite stores elsewhere in this
    conference.  Its almost impossible to generalize across the whole
    price range, though my personal opinion is that Shogun (Japanese)
    probably has one of the best lines of entry level bikes ($220 - $275).
    Batavus (Dutch) also has a good line at this level and goes on up to
    $600 +.  I can point you at specific stores when I have a better
    idea of how much you are willing to stretch your wallet.  My offer to
    tour the local bike shops with you is still good, even if we have
    to take a hookey half day.

    	Reg	(279-4484)
    
    	Heresy is only permitted in post scripts, so here goes;
    
	The helmet issue has another side to it, having crashed
    three times in the last few years (never with a helmet), I decided it
    was about time to get a "brain bucket."  I used it for about six months
    ( ~ 3,000 miles ) and was starting to become convinced that I would
    never again ride without one.  I ride with enough margin on the right
    to pull over a little as cars pass me.  I have developed my rearward
    hearing and over the shoulder glancing well enough to know when cars
    are behind me, how fast they are approaching and when they apply power
    to pass.  In other words I have "being passed" pretty much under
    control.  During the time that I was using the helmet I had three very
    close misses with cars, in each case the front right corner of the car
    was already overlapping at least my rear wheel before I was aware of
    its presence and it was passing me within about an inch.  It wasn't
    until the third encounter that I realized that each of these had been
    while wearing the helmet and that I couldn't recall it ever having
    happened before.  Since I stopped wearing the helmet (about a year, ~
    4500 miles) it hasn't happened since either.  The only explanation I
    have is that the particular helmet model and size on my particular head
    impairs hearing and/or vision enough to contribute toward an accident.
    I have also heard people rave about how their helmet saved their life
    when an unseen car hit them, sometimes I wonder if they might have seen
    the car and avoided the accident altogether if... ...etc. 
    
    	Enough !	Helmets are fine if they protect you from an
    			accident you were going to have anyway.
       
    			Helmets are terrible if they only protect you
    			from an accident that they contribute toward causing.

    	I am NOT advocating a reversal of the helmet trend, its a personal
    choice and if you feel safer with a helmet then that confidence
    will probably make you safer.  I feel safer without a helmet because
    I believe that I am more aware of traffic and that makes me safer.     

    	So much for short Post Scripts.
    

re: .5

Helmets aren't really the best thing in the world - heat, visibility, 
and hearing may be affected by a helmet, especially if it doesn't fit 
well or is a poor design. "Poor design" for a helmet involves the rider 
as well - in my case a Bell helmet, very strong and functional for most 
folks, just doesn't fit my head. Don't buy a helmet because it's the 
"best brand" - make sure it fits well in your riding position. If you 
don't find a helmet with a good it-to-you interface, don't use one.

I use an MSR helmet. Fits me just great, doesn't interfere with vision 
or hearing. The best thing I did was to get a mirror and mount it 
permanently on the helmet. Again, a matter of preference; but I find 
that the mirror gives me far more warning of cars approaching than other 
systems (ie looking back). It's not a device to give you perfect vision,
mine vibrates a lot, but after using it for a number of years I can 
figure out what a fuzzy blue blob approaching me from the rear is, for a 
long distance. I feel more naked without the mirror than the helmet, 
actually. Since they're a combo unit, it works out fine - grab helemt & 
have it all - enhanced safety for my [very] fragile skull, and increased 
awareness of cars.

As Reg mentioned, tho - if it cuts down on your safety by reducing the 
effectiveness of your hearing (riding with a Walkman is another goodie) 
or vision, it's no improvement.
                                         ken

    
    Re: fit-kits
    
    Fit-kits are super for stores that don't have a resident expert.
    Don't forget how this system was developed, from empirical data
    collected over the years.
    
    What my point is, is that someone with a trained eye, namely a top
    racer or real hard core tourist, can eyeball someone and correct
    the problems without the use of the kit. I've had it done once,
    only to find out everything was close to the tables, anyway. So
    I made the changes for the heck of it, and wound up changeing it
    all back later. I've fitted so many riders this way, who are riding
    many happy miles.
    
    The Serotta/Bill Boston machine is simply a stand where the expert
    can easily view the rider and easily adjust his/her position and
    take measurements off of it. The "bike" is adjustable to simulate
    the geometry of the bike you want to buy.
    
    hope this helps
    
    CdH
    
    
    

Tim, you now have advice from all the people I consider the EXPERTS.
One piece of advice they didn't give, or perhaps I missed it, was this:
I simply selected a reputable bike store. For me that was Gamache's in 
Fitchburg. There are O'Neils in Worcester and Fitchburg, Lincoln Guide in
Lincoln, Bicycle Barn in Westboro and a hundred others I don't know about.
Select the store, then tell the salesperson how much you can spend and 
take some time describing the kind of riding you're going to be doing. If
it's the right kind of bike store, you should end up with a good fitting,
bike you'll have fun with. I did. I started, as you, after several years
of rest. Now I do about 2000 miles per year. 
If it were me, I'd take Reg up on his offer! Just don't let him talk you
into some animalistic Italian racing machine with a 12, 13, 14, 16, 20
freewheel and a 50, 58 chainwheel ! Insist on a 48, 54 at least!


Have fun!!!!!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=gary=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


< Note 40.0 by JACOB::GREENWOOD "Tim Greenwood" >
                     -< Advice needed on a basic bicycle >-

    I have not been on a bike for over 10 years, but the hot weather
    has given me the riding urge and I am looking for some advice. I
    only anticipate being a casual rider, maybe a little touring,
    definitely no racing - a Sunday rider. What sort of things should
    I look for in a bicycle, can you reccomend good shops (how about
    Schwinns in Maynard - just over the road from the Mill), what sort
    of prices are reasonable ?
    
    Tim

    Many thanks for your advice. I am currently counting my pennies.
    Reg - I would like to take up your offer, and will call you.  I
    will let you all know what I get.
    
    Tim

    Buy your first bicycle pretty randomly.  Get one that fits, do not
    spend a lot of money, and plan to buy another in a year or two.
    All the theorizing and fine points don't count for much until you
    put some miles on.  When you're ready for your second bike, you'll
    know what you want.
    
    Getting too crazy in initial selection causes what I call chainsaw
    syndrome, "I spent so much money and agonized so much over this
    purchase that I can not admit to myself that it's not perfect...,"
    and you never do make the next step.
    						John Peters

	My situation was very similar.  I had not ridden more than
	ten miles (total!) in the last 10 years and decided to get
	back into bicycling.  By looking in the Bicycle magazine 
	1986 buyers guide I determined that the quality of bike I 
	wanted could be had for between $250 and $350.  After looking 
	at every bike within 30 minutes of my house (about 6 bike 
	shops) I determined that a Nishiki Riveria GT was the bike
	for me.  It is a nice sport touring bike that has some of
	the features (braze-on's particularly) of a loaded touring
	model.  Both shops that carried Nishiki bikes were waiting for 
	most of their 1986 shipments to arrive so I had to wait a 
	couple of weeks to get my size and choice of color.  The
	list price was around $280 but I offered to take the bike
	"in the box" for which I was given a $20 discount.

				-John A. Wasser

.11 is interesting.  Most bike shop brands require that the
bike be assembled before sold so that they can avoid getting a
bad reputation caused by poor assembly by unskilled labor.
(probably also so that they can avoid litigation).

I got that story listening to the things Lechmere had to do to carry
quality bikes -- which I wish they didn't but that's another story.

    The myth of setup by a qualified dealer...  I've seen as much
    half-assed work by dealers as by individuals.
    
    There's an analogy in automotive warranties- the manufacturers and
    dealers like to assert that the warranty is not valid unless they
    do the work.  Your actual legal rights protect you if you do the
    work yourself in a competent fashion.  The thing you do have to
    do is to keep maintenance records to back up any warranty claims.
    
    I've run into this with motorcycles, cars, and a weed whacker, but
    not with bicycles as of yet.  
    					John

Ah, yes.... back when I was in the bicycle biz, we set up every bicycle 
with an eye toward whether or not it was going to work properly. The 
manufacturers were not overly concerned with things like whether front 
derailleurs were at the correct angle to actually shift. EVERY rear 
derailleur had under or over-travel, etc........ We set 'em up as best 
we could, then test rode EVERY bike we ever sold. After the test ride, 
if we didn't like how it worked, we adjusted it and test rode it again, 
repeating until it was correct. It was not unheard of (though 
infrequent) to spend most of a day on a single bike that was especially 
troublesome. I gathered that none of the other dealers in our town 
bothered with that - we got a batch of horror stories from the others, 
and a lot of satisfied customers at our shop.

Although a lot of home mechanics are competent, we saw quite a number 
that wondered why their bike didn't work quite right. My personal 
favorite was the number of folks that assembled the bikes with the seat 
post clamp forward of the seat post, leaving the seat about 6" from the 
bars.
                                              ken

The horror stories are legendary from both sides of the coin.  As a
neighborhood fix-it for free person I see a lot of the people who
buy a department store bike and save the six bucks by putting it
together themselves.  When I see frayed brake cables, I just rip them
out and replace them, no charge.  I saw a pair of "safety levers"
installed upside down last year.  King Kong didn't have hands big
enough to use them.  Then same bike had a badly assembled rear wheel.
I just told the Mom to get Toys-R-Us to exchange it (they did).

I think Fuji, Schwinn, Raliegh and others are better off for requiring
dealer assembly in the long run.  There's less chance that the bike will be
assembled with a pliers, crescent wrench, flat head screw driver where a
phillips is needed, and an English Allen set where a Metric is needed
(using the pliers for a wire cutter of course). Oh, I forgot the vice-grips.

Of course there's good reason for the knowledgeable person to save a few
bucks by assembling and maintaining it himself.  I just think they are in a
minority.

One of the neighbor kids was stopped in front of my house trying to figure
out what was wrong with her bike.  I asked if I could help her, pointed out 
that her derailleur was adjusted wrong and she said, "Probably, my dad 
worked on it."  I fixed it.  (I also have the neighborhood tire pump.)

    I have been blessed with a wife who grew up in a bike shop.
    She has been cursed with a husband who is all thumbs
    I let her do the work on the bikes. After all, she enjoys it.
    
    Semper Fi,
    Steve Wilson
    

    
    	Back to .0
    
    	Hi again Tim,  did you buy yet ?
    
    	Back to .1    offer is still good, I'll come out with you and
    evaluate bikes at the local stores ANYTIME.  Once I know your budget
    and the kind of bike you want; tourer, sport/touring, racer,
    sport/racer, mountain/ATB, etc., I'll suggest where we should start.
    
    	Reg
    

    Thanks for all the advice. This Saturday I bought one (actually
    one each for my wife and myself). We went to the philosophy of not
    spending a great deal and seeing how we like it. Actually the store
    owner talked us out of buying a higher priced model - that went
    some way to persuading me that he was honest. 
    
    We both bought a Raleigh 410 and spent the rest of Saturday and
    Sunday pottering around the quiet roads near our house. Its true
    what they say - you do not forget how to ride a bicycle. Getting
    the feel of the bike, and handling the gears took a little longer,
    but the joy and thrill of it soon came back (as did the aches and
    the numb bum :-) )
    
    If the weather is kind we will pile them in the car and head to
    the cycle paths of the cape next weekend (not quite up to riding
    all the way yet).
    
    Tim