Conference noted::bicycle

    Several people around here are happy with their Avocet model 50's.  It
    has the usual functions (except no cadence), plus altitute (current and
    total climbing).  If you ride alot in the hills, the altitude can be
    fun.
    
    Ken
    

Nicki,

I use to have a Cateye Micro but I use a Avocet 31 and 40 now. I like the fact
that the batteries,extra mount and replacment parts are cheaper on the Avocet
then the Cateye. Also, Avocet is made in USA.

Dave

I second the vote on the Avocet Model 50.  I do a fair amount of riding on the 
mountains and find that the altimeter function is neat.  The altimeter is even 
relatively accurate.  Mine seems to be within a couple percent of reality.  It's
really easy to calibrate and even works fine in my old Model 20 mount on my old
bike.

I got mine at the Colorado Springs Bike Shop on Colorado Av.  With my 10% CSCC
discount it set me back $78 or something like that.

Mark_whos_climbed_125k feet  :-)

    Has anyone tried one of those new wireless bike computers? I'm about to
    spring for my *first* bike computer, and I'll either get a nice, basic,
    inexpensive model, or spring for the fancier wireless type if I feel
    indulgent and don't hear anything bad about them (you know how new
    technology is, sometimes it takes over everything, other times it goes
    quietly away, never living up to its promise).
    
    And it's nice to know that Avocet is made in the U.S.A. I figured with
    a  name like that they were a French company and the units were farmed
    out to a Pacific Rim country. I don't know about anyone else, but if a
    product is made in the U.S.A. these days, that makes a big difference
    to me. (If I'd only known about Yakima racks before I bought the Thule,
    but that was almost 10 years ago.)
    
    Ed

    If you aren't concerned about altitude, I"ve had good luck this year
    with the Performance CM500.  It has cadence and the display can show
    several pieces of information simultaneously - for example current
    speed, current cadence, average speed, maximum speed all at the same
    time.  You can also display max cadence and average cadence as well as
    the standard clock, stop watch, total miles, and distance this ride. 
    They are $49.95 mailorder.
    
    I DO NOT recommend the Vetta C-100. My wife has a Vetta C-100 on her
    bike, but the average speed is not accurate.  It doesn't match what
    either my current or previous computers show, and if I calculate an
    average based on her time and mileage it comes out different than the
    computer shows too.  

    
    re: wireless...
    
    	I have a mountain bike that I DO use in the woods and I wanted to
    keep track of time and milage (speed, altitude, cadence were not too 
    relevant for my needs), so I got a Vetta c-300 wireless. I wanted the
    wireless for the obvious reason that I didn't want to rip out wires in
    the rough stuff. It works great. (I think they're on sale now for $35
    at colorado cyclist- I paid $47 elsewhere). I DO have to be gentle 
    removing my front wheel (wide 2.2 tire) so that the tire doesn't smack
    the sensor. I like it- it does what I need and it's easy to use and the
    readout is large enough to see at a glance. Had it only about a month 
    now so can't say anything about longevity, but the catalog blurb says
    that it's "improved reliability" over the previous generation Vetta
    C??? (100?) whatever that means.

    The Avocet 50 will also do cadence, if you buy the cadence adapter to
    mount on your crank & chainstay, and then enable that function in the
    Avocet 50 setup.

    As far as average speed:  the Avocets only average your speed over
    the times when your bike was moving.  In other words, it doesn't divide
    total miles by total elapsed time.  It divides total miles by how much
    time it was registering > 0 mph.  Other computers do it differently.

    (I like the Avocet method -- makes for higher numbers!!  :)   )

    - Diane

In regards to wireless computers...

They weigh a few grams more, have two batteries to worry about, the TX end is 
big and it easily gets bumped out of position.

I have to add my vote for the Avocet 40. The 50's altitude feature isn't worth 
it for me. Although I would gladly use one if it was tossed my way.

Some things to consider...

o - How easy is it to change the display while riding...

	I found the Avocet's mode buttons to work well and they give you a nice
	click that lets you know the mode will change. This comes in handy
	when changing the mode without having to look at the display. 

o - How easy is it to read the display while riding.

	You don't want to take your eyes off the road for very long. While
	some computers have almost every function displayed at once the
	numbers can be hard to read while riding.

o - Spare parts.
	
	As someone else mentioned the Avocet is the leader in low prices
	for their spare parts, such as wheel magnets and wire hook ups.

If you want a good guide to see a bunch of computers get a mail order catalog
such as Performance and Nashbar.

Tom

    I've had some problems with my Avocet 40.  The average speed seems to
    always be off by ~2 to 2.5 mph lower.  My calibration is fine..maybe
    the av. speed function is broken.  Has anyone else had this kind of
    problem?  Other than the average speed function which I really don't
    pay much attention to, the Avocet 40 has been working great!
    
    -Steve
    

    Yeah, I thought my 50's avg speed was broken at the beginning of the
    year too.  ;-)  

    
    The Schwinn Paramount computer (no kidding) is a good, basic unit at
    a great price - $35. or so at your corner bike store.  It does time,
    max, avg, trip time - all that basic 1-pickup stuff.  We have one on
    our tandem, where it's held up well through rain, snow, gloom of night,
    etc.  I'd call it a best buy in the "Support Your Local Retailer"
    category.
    
    Will Monin
    Seattle

    
      The Vetta C-300 is a vast improvement over the previous Vetta
    wireless models.  I bought one last winter for my road bike.  It has
    performed flawlessly.  I now have one for the road tandem and soon for
    the mountain bike.  
      The only thing I wish it did was turn on when I start riding.  I
    can't remember how many times I have forgotten to turn it on.
    
    							Norm
    
    

    
    Here's another vote for the wireless! I bought a Cateye because I live 
    (and ride) in the country, and I was concerned about brush ripping the
    wires off a "wired" computer. After 5+ months I have endured more than
    my share of knocks, bangs, rain, rocks, brush, etc. and have never had
    a single problem. The Cateye continues to be accurate, it somehow still
    looks good, constant contact with brush has never shoved the magnet out 
    of alignment; in other words, it's pushed hard and it works. It lacks 
    cadence and altitude, and like a previous noter I still forget
    sometimes to turn it on, or off, but for about $49 from Nashbar, it's
    fun, and even serves some practical purpose!!
    
    Regards,
    
    Doug T.
    

I have both a cateye micro and an avocet 40.  The both work fairly well
(although I have been wondering whether the avocet is a little low
on avg. speed as another noter pointed out).
I like the way the cateye displays and resets its functions better.
It always shows current speed in one window and the other window
displays the specified function (avg., elapsed time, max speed, odometer,
trip distance).  All functions are reset by pushing the two buttons.
All functions are started or stopped by pushing the start/stop button.
Avg. speed is for total time.

The Avocet also has two windows but both window change with the
desired function and each function has an option.  For example
there is a speed function.  In this function the top window displays
current speed and the bottom window will display avg (only moving avg)
or max speed.  The option button lets you alternate between avg. and
max.   There is also a distance function.  Top displays current
distance, bottom displays total distance.   Each function can
be reset individually or all by holding both buttons down for
"3 seconds".  It still is not clear to me whether all the functions
can be started at the same time or need to be individually started.

The Avocet is new to me, but so far I think the Cateye micro is
easier to use.  It also comes with cadence if thats important, 
Although the you have to set a switch in back of the unit to 
get cadence so it is inconvienient to use.

About the only advantage to the avocet that I can see is that
the avg. speed is calculated only while the bike is moving.

-Larry Cohen    

    If you live anywhere even remotely mountainous then the Avocet 50 is
    the only choice -- it makes a huge amount of difference to know what
    sort of average climb you've been doing, and the current gradient of
    hills etc. As far as I can see the only possible disadvantage of the 50
    is that in rough terrain the wire is exposed, but if it's mounted
    carefully on the fork I think it's no more vulnerable than the sensor
    on any bike.
    
    I've loved having the Avocet 50 and have found it amazingly reliable,
    easy to use, and fun.
    
    Piers

    I have an Avocet 50. I think it's great too, but I wouldn't call it
    reliable, I'm on the 3rd unit. The first one had a 40% fast clock, the
    second one got a little rain on it and the barometer died. It's out of
    guarantee now, so if the current one goes I shall not stump up the
    cash for another, but get a Cateye Mity-2 instead. After a while you
    get the measure of climbs in your head anyway.
       I have concluded the mount kit for the Avocet is very reliable, tho.
    And extra ones for spare bikes are cheaper than Cateye. But the Avocet
    doesn't change calibration properly, so if you use it on multiple
    bikes, they all better have the same wheel, nay tyre, diameter.
    
    ---Alan

My A50 experience is the opposite of .16's. The unit itself has been utterly
reliable and has twice withstood extended drenchings. However the mount
failed last year although the replacement is going fine. Like .15, I think
it's a great computer. And I see it's available in splatter finish this 
year...

There's another huge note about computers in here with loads of stuff about
the A50 and other computers. Is the basenoter aware of this? (Sorry I can't
remember the note number.)


Rod

..... twice withstood extended drenchings.....
    
    That *might* be the difference this sounds like two outings in the last
    week :-)  I have to aggree with Alan about the fitting for avocets tho'.
    
    I have had 3 or four cateye harnesses in two years and my avocet harness
    which dates from about 1985 in still working perfectly (so is the avocet
    if you can be bothered keeping up with its appetite for batteries).

    My Av50 survived a 20mph fall this last Saturday... I was trying to
    wedge a napkin between the Av50 and the handlebar extension (dumb...)
    and it popped off.  Both batteries came out, and it bounced down
    the road for quite a bit, but survived. 
    

    What kind of batteries does the Avocet take?
    
    Ed
    

    i know the one feature i won't pass up next time and that is
    autostart/stop.  I'm getting tired of forgetting to start/stop the fool
    thing.
    
    And i don't know why they can't have multiple readouts.  this mode
    stuff is about as old as biking helmets are ugly.

I just looked at the performance catalogue. They have a model
that has four display windows. On display all the time is 
current speed and RPM.  The other windows are for the various
modes.   Does not talk about auto start/stop however.
Any more windows than this and you might need to lug around
a video terminal.
-Larry

    >I just looked at the performance catalogue. They have a model that has
    >four display windows. On display all the time is  current speed and
    >RPM.  The other windows are for the various modes.   Does not talk
    >about auto start/stop however. Any more windows than this and you might
    >need to lug around a video terminal.
    
    close...  The windows on the Performance CM 500 are:
    
    Top left is always current speed
    
    Top right is always cadence, EITHER current, max, or average 
    
    Bottom two displays are either time of day, stopwatch, total distance,
    ride distance, or bottom left is max speed, bottom right average speed.
    
    NO autostart or stop though!  

Advocet's warranty is two years, the 50's were very rare two years ago, your
warranty may still be good.

barry

    If anyone's interested, Avocet recently released its Model 31 computer,
    so most shops are selling the old Model 30s (with similar
    functionality) for $30, $10 off the original price.
    
    Ken
    

 RE: -1

>    If anyone's interested, Avocet recently released its Model 31 computer,
>    so most shops are selling the old Model 30s (with similar
>    functionality) for $30, $10 off the original price.
    
So what is the difference between the model 30 and the model 31?

    

RE: -2  The difference is in the size of the numbers being displayed on the
        LCD. I went into a couple of local bike shops and they showed BOTH
	models to me....and that was the ONLY difference.  The Avocet 31 has
	the larger display. The price was the same for both.

RE: All Thanks for all the information.  I decided that my pocketbook could
        not afford the Avocet 50 and I could not justify the additional $30
	for the altimeter.  Therefore....I have decided to go with the 
	Avocet 40.  I like the idea of using the same mounting bracket and
	wires that are already on my current road bike.  I can then put the
	additional set on my mtn bike and just transfer the computer back
	and forth....provided I remember to change the calibration for the
	wheel size.

	I did try a Vetta wireless model, but it did not work very well
	at all.  If you hit a bump or ride on a non-smooth road (good luck
	finding a 'smooth' road in all of Colorado!), the computer gets
	confused and zeroes out your average speed, then jumps up to 35+ mph,
	then back down to the actual speed you are travelling.

Thanks again!

-Nicki

has anyone had any experience with the ciclomaster with the altimeter kit. i've
heard it gives a % gradient readout. can anyone attest to its accuracy and/or
ease of use? i seem to remember reading somewhere that it works differently than
the avocet 50 altimer. does anyone know more about this?

thanks

    I read a review a long time ago in a British cycling rag,comparing it
    to the Avo-50. Conclusion was that the Ciclomaster was wildly
    inaccurate. The mechanism they use is to measure gradient directly
    and take climb = distance * sin(gradient). The problems were in the
    gradient sensing mech. They may have been sorted since the review.
    
    ---Alan

Sounds like an inherently inaccurate method: I don't think it can ever be
as accurate as an A50, which is routinely within a few per cent of the 
real height.

But it can't be as inaccurate as the method I dreamed up. The only other
bit of data I'd like to have on my A50 is ambient temperature. And if one
did have a temperature sensor on the computer, then of course the computer
could link temperature variations to changes in height! Because of course
the temperature normally drops as one climbs. I think this would be a 
charming way to measure altitude, but as I said, wildly inaccurate.


Rod

     I remember Eric Frere talking about his... I think he ended up hating
    it (if I remember correctly). However, I can't remember why. I do re-
    member being thankful... He tried to influence me into a purchase when
    he first got his.
    
     Chip

    To diverge down a bit of a rathole (and if I sound like an OC, it's
    because I am) but what exactly is the point of an altimeter on a bike?
    I respectfully suggest that it's in the same category as an ashtray.
    
    Chris

    Folks who have altimeters on their bikes like to make statments
    like "we did 9521.4 feet of climbing.  The ad said this ride had
    15000 feet of climbing so we have another 5478.4 feet of climbing
    .... We're almost done."
    
    I think the ciclomasters need frequent recalibration.  and I know their
    mounts crack.
    
    ed
    
    (And, no, I don't have one but Linda has two.)

An altimeter which records accumulated climb is as useful as a mileometer which
records accumulated mileage. The effort expended on a ride is some function of
distance travelled and height gained, so if you want some indication of how
easy/strenuous a ride was, you need both measures. If you aren't interested in
such information, then don't bother with altimeter or mileometer.

I would ask the complimentary question: What use is a mileometer without an
altimeter.  ;-)

-Les.

Any col worth its salt has stone altimeters situated at 1 km intervals on the
side of the road.  They also tell you how far it is to the next point of human
habitation, pizza van, water-hole etc etc.....

Do I have an Avocet 50?  Do I wish I had one? - sometimes yes, sometimes no, I
think the Casio altimeter watch is a more desirable accessory.

    I have found the Avocet 50 quite accurate, using it hiking.  I set
    the altitude based on a topo map, and have found the accuracy at the
    top of the mountain within 50 feet.
    
    One major negative of this machine is the battery life is fairly short,
    and it does not retain milage when batteries are removed.  
    
    steve

    RE .36 (Robin)
    
    So How much tax do *you* pay to the Alpe Maritimes to put these up.
    
    Having `bornes' with altitudes on them is *very* dependant on how rich
    the department is.  The Alpe Maratimes and (?? Isere) do but I don't 
    think that Haut Savoie does.   Bouches du Rhone certainly din't and
    although they don't have many cols worth there salt there are still
    lots of evil 600-1000m ones...
                                  
    Ans as for a good reason to have neither milometers, altimeters or
    milestones, consider the climb up Glandon from the North (distances and
    heights are from my head, I do know that this is the truth since it has
    happened to both myself and Alan)
    
    You leave the vally at ~650m and you know that its ~18k to the top at
    2000m.  So you do a quick calculation and reckon that 8% is OK.
    About half way up (distance) you get nervous since you've only climed
    to 1100m.  There is a couple of km at 10% with stretches of 13 so you
    catch back up  but with 3 km to go there is still 400 odd m to climb,
    whats more you calculate that you are still only climbing at 6%.....
    
    At this stage you wish you'd never bought the **** thing, dig deep and
    stop looking at anything as a thr red tinge starts to take over more
    and more of your field of vision :-)

I'm happier to stick with the Altigraph books and dispense with the bornes if
it saves me on the impots.....

Most of the climbs we do are 6-8%, it's just the length that varies (apart from
the **%! hill back to the Temples from Biot - that is about 25% according to my
legs after a trip round the Cap with either Strong or Rowlands!).

On another tack, the Michenon mail order catalogue has "inclinometers" which you
stick to a (horizontal) tube.  They look like calibrated spirit levels ie: low
tech and very attractive to an O.F. - at 35grams and 84 Fr can't be bad....

>    To diverge down a bit of a rathole (and if I sound like an OC, it's
>    because I am) but what exactly is the point of an altimeter on a bike?

you must be a *FLATLANDER* ;^) 

re: avocet 50. i actually have an avocet 50 now. was wondering about ciclomaster
to get for second rainy day bike i might get this winter. sounds like there are
still too many bugs with it to risk it. the current percent gradient would be
fun but it's pointless unless it's extremely accurate. will probably just get a
second mount and switch avocet 50 between bikes. this is cheap too.

>Any col worth its salt has stone altimeters situated at 1 km intervals on the
>side of the road.  They also tell you how far it is to the next point of human
>habitation, pizza van, water-hole etc etc.....

some of us climb "passes", "notches" and "mountain roads" rather than "cols".
here in new england you'll very rarely find anything like altitude/mileage
markers.

thanks for the advise. for now will stick with avocet.

    
    
    If I lived somewhere where I would regularly be climbing significant
    cols (eg Rod or Robin), then I would perhaps consider an altimeter.
    Round here, the countryside is very rolling. Therefore there is not
    really enough significant climbs to make me curious as to altitude. But
    then again, I'm an apprentice Old Codger...  :*)
    
    Graham.

Why have an altitude reading? Because it's damn good fun, that's why. Plus
of course as Rod W said, you can make all these gradient calculations in
your head. And knowing how much you have left to climb on a hill allows
you to make reasonably accurate estimations of how long it's going to take
to get to the top. Let's face it, anything that takes your mind off the 
effort is worthwhile.

As for Robin's stones by the road: not too many of them round here. A few.


Rod

    Graham,
    
    Although round here there are no hills (so altitidue is less interesting), 
    it is nice to have the delta height at the end of the day.  Thus if you 
    have done the Lomonds, Tarkie and the Yetts and you feel dead `but have 
    only done 60 miles' its good to know that youve climbed avover 1500m 
    (for instance)....
    
    Plus you can dream of your summer holidays in the big hills....

    
    
    But Ordnance Survey are cheaper...  :*)
    
    Scotsmen of the world unite....
    
    Graham.

    On my bike I have an attitude meter so when I get really psyched and
    start crashing through the woods I can get the meter to hit 95% or 100%.
    
    Alan (Sorry couldn't resist)
    
     

    
    For off-road mountain travel, whether by bike or not, altimeters are
    extremely useful - a topo map and knowledge of current elevation make
    it possible to determine position even in the absence of visible land-
    marks.  The Avocet seems to be pretty accurate, and is a good buy as a
    standalone altimeter.  
    
    Its always really nice to have a convenient, realistic explanation for 
    owning a pretty cool gadget.
    
    Will

Does anyone have experience with computers which preserve the "odometer" setting
(total accumulated mileage) when the wheel calibration is changed?  I'd like to
be able to swap the computer to different bikes/wheel sizes and maintain an
accurate record of total miles traveled.  I have an Avocet 50 which I like but
the mileage changes with the wheel calibration.  I'm certain this has been
discussed before but I haven't found the thread.  Do other Avocet models
behave similarly?  Are there others which have this "feature"?

Thanks for your comments.

Steve

re: <<< Note 2368.47 by LMOPST::CORNO::ROGERS >>>

The Cateye Micro does not change the total distance value when the wheel
circumference is altered. In fact I just did this last night.
						-- Tom

    I liked the Av50 enough to buy another; maybe that was their intent.
    KB

The Avocet 40 lets you change the calibration without affecting the accumulated
total. In fact it behaves differently from the 50 in other ways too. e.g.
individually resettable functions on the 40, cf. just a "clear everything"
on the 50.

I just wish they would crack the "loose everything when you change the battery"
problem.

-Les.

    The Cateye Wireless also allows calibration change without losing
    other data.
    
    ed

> individually resettable functions on the 40, cf. just a "clear everything"
> on the 50.

Not true about the 50, its functions are indeed individually resettable.


Rod

    
    I went with the AV 40 as well. I have no problems with when doing
    change overs.
    
    Bob

.52> Not true about the 50, its functions are indeed individually resettable.

Oops, my mistake. Yes, they are. I had not used that facility for so long that
I had forgotten it existed.

-Les.

    Hi All,
    
    just a short question to bring ligth to my "speedometer"......
    
    I am used to ride in early morning hours....during summer no problem
    but now when the days grow shorter and the night will take the
    difference to 24 hours my CICLOMASTER  counts the miles and I am sure
    that it also will feed the display with nice numbers....but without
    illumination...no chance to read!!!!
    
    Does anybody know if a "Illuminated Computer" is existent or has
    anybody tackled this problem before?
    
    waiting for "ENLIGHTMENT"
    
    kind regards Karl
    

I've never heard of one with an illuminated display. If I'm ever cycling at
night, I wait for some streetlamp light - not always available in the
countryside, I know.

Alternatively you could wear a light on your head so that when you looked
at the computer it would be illuminated that way. No?...


Rod

    A lot of Ultra marathon types used to make/rig/buy a thing which
    ran an LED off a AA battery.  Properly positioned this can provie for
    hours of entertainment.
    
    ed

    	Along the same lines, one of the riders during BMB had a
    	regular bike headlight velcroed to the top of his helmet.
    
    	On the news last night, I saw a paramedic with a small
    	flashlight velcroed to the side of his helmet.
    
    	Scott

    Scott, that was probably a NightSun (the water bottle battery folks)
    The best lights; and the most expensive.  Lincoln Guide Whatever store
    in Lincoln, MA has 'em.  One drawback with the helmet model: you blind
    whoever you look at.  Kratz

    Thank you.....I built an illumination by my own....
    
    I took an  aluminium tube, bent it, mounted a little lamp within and 
    connected it wih my power (Batterylight) system.
    
    				------------
                               /     Lamp	 The cables are routed
                              / /----- o ---     within the tube.
			      I	I     o o
                              I I    o o o
                              I I   o ooo o
                              I I ------------
			      I I I Computer I
                              I I I          I
                              I I ------------   the tube is mounted
                              I  \_________      under the computerclamp.
    			       \___________
    
  kind regards 
    Karl
    
    

    another problem with helmet mounted lights is that you can't see
    potholes very well because you can't see shadows.
    
    ed

I need some help from the ATBers out there.  I'm looking to purchase a 
cyclocomputer for my husband for Xmas.  He rides on a lot of rugged terrain 
(through brush, over logs, through streams) so I'm thinking a wireless 
would be the way to go.  However, he'll be getting a windtrainer for the 
winter and he recently mentioned he'd like a heart monitor.  I've been looking 
through the bike catalogs and they don't seem to carry wireless computers 
with heart monitors.  So, my questions are:

1. Do they make wireless computers with HR monitor?  If not,

2. Do I go with a wired system with HR monitor?  With the type of riding he 
does, I'm afraid he'll rip the wires out the first time he uses it on the 
trails.

3. Do I buy two separate computers, one for mainly heart rate for 
windtraining, and the other a wireless with all the bells and whistles for 
trail riding?  How much trouble is it to switch the computers twice a year?

4. From your experience, which models will stand up to the type of riding 
he does?

Thanks a bunch in advance,
Paula
    

I recommend going with separate pieces.  Buy a CICS heart
monitor, they are the best.  Vetta does make a heart/cyclometer
however I have heard it doesn't update heart information fast
enough.  Simple function CICs monitors are dropping in price,
you may check Performance, they have some refurbished units very
reasonably priced.

I don't know what holds up best for cyclometers.  I would
imagine the Cateye ATB would be a good choice.  If you
strap the wires down well, including taping, there should
be little problems.

steve

    
    I have a wired cyclometer on my mountain bike, and I also ride both on
    trails, and off trails through brush, weeds, etc. The wired are straped
    in a few places, and taped in the others. I havent had a problem with
    the wiring yet.
    

    For those looking at new bike computers...
    
    My Performance CM 500 was getting flaky so I returned it for
    replacement.  They sent me a new CM400 ($49.95 from Performance) which
    SO FAR seems to be pretty good.
    
    You can program it for up to 3 bikes - different wheel diameters and
    such.
    
    The display will show current speed, avg (or max) speed, current
    cadence, avg (or max) cadence, and trip distance all at the same time. 
    You can switch the displays to show a variety of other information if
    you're so inclined.  
    
    One of the displays (replace the trip distance) shows calories burned
    on the ride (lets you know how big an ice cream sundae the ride was
    worth :^) ).  
    
    For you folks that do training rides - there are 2 built-in countdown
    timers that alternate.  The unit collects up to 20 screens of data
    based on the interval timers, and they can be played back later to
    review performance during the intervals.
    
    Another thing I like is the automatic start/stop of the ride timer. 
    Wheel turns, timer starts.  Wheel stops and 2-3 seconds later timer
    stops.  All the calculations are based on the ride timer.  
    
    The cables are separate from the display mounting bracket.  This means
    you can put each pickup in place and just run the cable up to the mount
    instead of trying to thread the sensors down to where they will be
    mounted.
    
    All in all, it seems like a nice setup, and not nearly as confusing as
    the manual made it seem...  Now if it only did altitude too!

    if it can't handle 12 bikes I don't want it  :-)
    
    Seriously, glad you are pleased, I ordered one and it's due in today.
    
    ed

re: .65, .66

I've got one too.  I've probably only put a little over 100 miles on it.  I
decided to try it after the wiring harness on my Cateye Astrale went bad.
That's 2 cateye products wiring harnesses in about a year.

What do I like?  The big display.

What don't I like?

When I stop, it stops, but when I start again, it doesn't seem turn the display
back on from the clock unless I hit the function button.

It has to be in the ??? (speed?) mode in order to reset the various counters.
Since I like it in cadence mode, I have to take it out of cadence mode, into
??? mode, and put it back into cadence mode.

The speed/distance sensor has to go on the front wheel.  Not sure what I'll
do this winter when it comes time to climb on the wind trainer.

Of the three computers I've had, I think I like the feel of the buttons on the
Cateye Micro the best.

Bob

    They offer a rear wheel mount.  Don't have it in stock yet though.
    
    ed

>When I stop, it stops, but when I start again, it doesn't seem turn the display
>back on from the clock unless I hit the function button.

    Yeah, thats a minor gripe to me too...  I'd like it if the display
    automatically came back on when you start moving.
    
>It has to be in the ??? (speed?) mode in order to reset the various counters.
>Since I like it in cadence mode, I have to take it out of cadence mode, into
>??? mode, and put it back into cadence mode.

    Are the counters you're talking about the training ones?  Or the
    regular ride_timer, avg_speed, etc counters?  If so, pressing and
    holding the function and option buttons for several seconds resets
    everything on mine.

re: .69

>    Are the counters you're talking about the training ones?  Or the
>    regular ride_timer, avg_speed, etc counters?  If so, pressing and
>    holding the function and option buttons for several seconds resets
>    everything on mine.

The average/max speed and cadence, ride time, and ride distance.  Pressing
and holding the function and option buttons are how I clear it now in SPD mode.
I'll try it in cadence mode, but I don't think it worked the last time I tried
it.

Bob

    Hm...  I leave mine in cadence mode most of the time and it clears
    everything when I use those buttons.  Ride time, calories,
    everything...
     
    I have noticed that the calory counts for this thing are about 150-200%
    of what the chart I made from the information in here said.  This was
    from an old note that showed calories/mile and calories/minute at
    various speeds.  I used that information to generate the formula I used
    in the ridelog application (written in Rally).  I presume the
    difference is because those figures were for a specific weight while
    this computer uses the weight you enter...

Finally remembered to try the reset (Function+Option) in cadence mode.  It
cleared the counters, but took me back to SPD mode on the display:-(

Bob

    Yeah, every time I reset mine I have to reset the middle counter (time)
    back to cadence...

    Well, the speed & distance indication on my CM-400 went intermittent,
    so I knew I needed to replace my front wiring harness:-(  I looked in
    the catalogue and all I could find was the "Extra Mounting Kit
    (front)", so I ordered it.  I was very surprised to find that it was an
    entire mounting kit.  I thought the (front) meant I'd get just the
    front wiring harness.  Oh well.  Here are the part numbers for the
    various parts of the kit if anyone needs to order just part of it.
    
    	Description					Part Number
    	--------------------------------------------	-----------
    	Cadence Sensor - for CM-400 & CM-600		40-4141
    	Speed Sensor - FRONT - for CM-300, 400, 600	40-4138
    	Speed Sensor - REAR - for CM-300, 400, 600	40-4139
    	Handlebar Mounting Bracket			40-4143
    
    Bob - who will now get to try out the Performance return policy

Well, I've decided to go back to my Cateye Astrale after getting fed up with
my CM-400.  It has intermittent failures.  New wiring harness and battery didn't
help and the clock loses about 20 minutes in 3 weeks.  Interestingly enough,
at a ride a few weeks ago we had a new guy show up and when he saw my CM-400
computer, he asked me how I liked it, and I told him what was happening.  His
reply was, "That's 7 out of 7".  He's talked to 6 other people who have the
CM-series and all of them have had problems of some sort:-(

Anyway, I got a new mounting kit for my Cateye, but I can't seem to find the
instruction book.  Would anyone who has the instruction book be willing to
photocopy the operating instructions (I remembered how to install the mounting
kit) and send/fax them to me?  I'll ask at the ride tonight, but I'm not sure
if anyone will be there that has the Astrale.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob,

	I just received a new Cateye Astrale.  I can make copies of the
instructions for you.  Where would you like me to send them?

	I have a question about it.  Has anyone mounted this computer on a
Cannondale?  I'm not sure it is going to fit.  If it doesn't, is there another
mounting kit that fits Cannondale's or do I need a completely different
computer?  How is the Avocet 45?

	Greg

    Greg,
    
    I'll send you mail and we can work out the logistics.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

I have a Cateye Astrale mounted on an R400 road bike.  I don't know if
some of the bigger down tubed cannondales also have bigger wheel holding tubes
(pardon my lack of jargon).

I was able to get the cadence sensor to fit okay, the problem was with
the wheel (speed) sensor.  There, the mounting would fit around the tube,
but just barely, and I couldn't get the given mounting screw to work.  So,
I went to the hardware store and bought a long screw (bring the mount
with you).  This means the mount screw holes don't touch around the tube.

This same question went around on the net a while ago, and it was mentioned
that Cateye also makes a large-tube mounting kit.

fwiw, I like the Astrale a lot, no problems so far (about 1 year).  The
two function display is cool.


-joe

I've got the cateye instructions.  Thanks to everyone who offered their help.

Bob

    I am thinking of getting my 5 year old son a speedometer/odometer for
    his bike.  He always wants to know how far we rode.  My main concern is 
    that he would do what I see adults do - they look at the display to see 
    how fast they are going and then lose control of their bike !
    
    When I was a tike, I had a large display mechanical speedometer/odometer, 
    very easy to read at a quick glance.   In its 1st day of use, I rode just 
    to see the odometer register 25 miles.  My favorite trick was watching the 
    speedometer needle approach 50 mph on downhills.  Maybe this is not such 
    a good idea, after all...  
    
    Anyway, are mechanical speedometer/odometers with large display still sold 
    anywhere ?

    Ill withhold comments about accuracy, as this appears to be a toy
    oriented application.....
    
    K-Mart / Sears / Caldor / other large department stores used to carry
    them.  I havent looked for one in many years, but thats where I got one.
    
    --roger
    

There are now very cheap digital speed/od-ometers with fairly large 
displays.  You can purchase these at Caldors and similar stores.
My son bought one for his bike.  It works fine.  You must remove the 
battery to turn off the display and that also resets the milage totals.
The price was right and my son seems to be satisfied with his purchase
for now.  (He probably would not admit it if he thought he made a mistake.)

He is 15 and did the installation himself.

Rick

    I just bought one of the new Performance computers (8.0) to replace a
    Cateye that's had some intermittent problems.  It's based on a VDO
    design and looks like a nice unit, but the odometer only displays whole
    miles; my Cateye odomoter displayed tenths of a mile.
    
    It's silly, but watching the numbers turn over has always motivated me
    to ride.  Some days when I didn't feel like riding, the mere fact that
    I was about to turn over a hundreds digit got me out the door.  The
    prospect of seeing a thousands digit change would get me on the bike in
    anything less than a hurricane.  With the Performance computer, I won't
    know if I'm .1 or .9 away from numerical nirvana.
    
    Do other computers have odometers with tenths resolution or was my
    Cateye an oddball?  Should I switch to kilometers to satisfy my round
    numbers jones?
    
    Jamie

    I believe the Avocet 45 (and soon the 55) have one-hundredths
    resolution on speed and distance.  i.e.  20.01mph, 20.01mi
    K

My Cateye Astrale as tenths on ODOMETER, SPEED, CADENCE (only on the upper
display, and only in automatic start/stop mode), AVERAGE SPEED, MAX SPEED.  The
TRIP ODOMETER goes to hundreths.

Tim

    The Performance computer has .5 mph resolution on all the displays
    except odometer.  I think I'll exchange it for a Cateye Mity2, which
    looks like the replacement for the one I have now (Vectra?).  I wasn't
    happy with the pick up mounting on it, it was difficult to align it to
    within 1-2mm of the magnet without hitting the spokes.  Mine has a
    pickup pod which has to be rotated towards the wheel to align.  Has the
    magnet/pickup design been improved?
    
    One other question: does mileage get lost in switching between auto
    start/stop and stopwatch functions?  I use the stopwatch on the
    trainer, but want auto start/stop when I get out on the road.
    
    Jamie

> One other question: does mileage get lost in switching between auto
> start/stop and stopwatch functions?  I use the stopwatch on the
> trainer, but want auto start/stop when I get out on the road.
    
Nope, at least not on the Astrale.  The only time you lose things is if you
switch to km or back.  The AT (autostart) function is settable by pressing the
small recessed gray button in the center (need a pencil or something pointy.) 
This allows you also to set the wheel circumference (press while on the ODO
display) and the clock (press while on the CLOCK display)

In auto mode, you have a choice of speed or cadence in the big (top) display.
The other functions cycle through the bottom display (pushing the left button). 
Interchanging the cadence and speed (top/bottom) is done with the right button. 
Reset trip is pressing both buttons together.  When in ODO mode, both buttons
together give you the current wheel circumference.

When in manual mode, the SPEED always stays up top and the right button becomes
the start/stop button.  I can't make up my mind which way I like better.  There
are pros/cons of each:

AutoMode -- starts automatically, stops automatically -- Great, but it also
counts rolling the bike, putting in on my roof rack, etc.  When I want to
measure only the "training" part of a ride  (i.e., to maximize average speed),
this becomes a disadvantage.  I don't however, have to remember to restart it if
I stop to fix a flat.

ManualMode -- I can stop it when my 'training' portion is done.  Unfortunately,
I forget to stop it sometimes when fixing flats or other stops.  Have to
remember to start it while clipping in and trying not to knock over 100 other
starters at a crit.

Get the idea?

Tim

p.s. in manual mode, when not 'started', it still records odometer miles, just
not trip miles.  In auto mode, both run anytime the wheel is moving.  So manual
mode can track those 'non-training' pieces of a ride to help increase total
annual miles while maximizing the average speed of 'training' rides.

    I got a Cateye Mity2 and mounted it over the weekend.  I could've used
    an extra hand to mount the sensor, but that's my only complaint so far. 
    I was surprised at how much smaller it is than my 4-5 year old Cateye
    Vectra.
    
    Thanks for the advice.
    
    Jamie