Conference noted::bicycle

I know that the 7 speed Dura Ace and the Ultegra rear spacers are the 
same. I had a Ultegra rear derailleur and used both Dura-Ace and Ultegra
rear hubs and matching cassette/freewheels. The spacing is the same.

Now the new 8 speed has a new derailleur to handle the longer movement.
Maybe with the old 7 speed derailleur with a 7 speed cassette(Hyper-Glide)
it will work better...??? 

Lets just say you're better off waiting for the next generation of STI with 
aero cables and lighter weight.

Tom 

P.S. I have STI and can honestly say that if you don't have it and you get 
beat in a sprint by someone that has STI then by all means go out and
buy a set. Otherwise if you're pack fodder.... forget it, it won't help
you go any faster. Although, it is a *nice* feature, it does add weight 
to your bike, like fenders in the rain.

      Nasty....
    
         Chip

Actually, I don't race.  I just aspire to commute (building to 40 miles a day)
and get out on rides with friends and club groups.  I just think that brake-shift
levers are cool.  The weight doesn't both me--I carry 10-30 lbs of packs in *all*
my riding. (Not to mention that I'm at least 40 lbs overweight at present--now
shedding *that* weight will make a difference 8^).

I considered that the difference in derailleurs might have been the problem for
the guy in the bike shop, but since the cog spacing is the same, that didn't
seem to make sense.

                                                          -- Mike

    (.0 all over again)
    I have a Trek 1200 aluminum frame with 6spd (circa '89) 105 components,
    and was also worried about the dropout width in upgrading to STI,
    but more than one bike shop I've been to says it's no problem.
    Supposedly it would require a Shimano hyperglide hub/wheel with
    appropriate dish, the 8spd cluster, rear deraillieur, and the levers.
    Has anybody by any chance taken a Trek xx00 aluminum frame and upgraded
    it to STI?  Thanks, _kb
    
    FWIW, I think the convenience of the STI outweighs (har, har) the gain
    in ounces as well.

True. STI levers are convenient. Very convenient. Touring with them is 
most likely one of the next best reasons to get the levers. It's a 
pain to shift while loaded down. BUT, I think it might be better to go with
bar end shifters or the new Grip-Shift shifter. They are made for 
6 or 7 speed and are a lot lighter. If you were building up a bike
from a frame, and you were planning to go 8 speed from the start, then
STI makes sense. 

If you plan to buy a bike in the next couple of years, then hold off 
on the STI. Use the money towards getting the next bike. Complete 
with 8-speed.

Here are some reasons I've noted that makes the STI shine.

o When riding in a pace line shifting goes unnoticed by the other riders

o When the pack changes speed you are never stuck in the wrong gear.

o Helps keep you from getting too squirrelly in the pace line while 
  trying to shift.



Tom_who_is_suffering_from_fixed_gear_withdrawal

    Here's an STI foobar:  While on the drops, if you down shift you must
    be careful that your pushing the lever to the left does not also
    squeeze the brake lever, as it might if you hook a finger around it
    when you push.
    
    ed

    One more "foobar"... They're not ERGOS!
    
       :-)
    
        I won't sign this one............

    Advantage for touring can easily be accomplished with bar-ends.
    Much cheaper, and can be put in non-index mode if the derailleur
    screws up on a tour.
    
    Steve

I just talked with a guy at one of the local bike shops and he looked it up
in a Shimano catalogue.  The spacing between 7 and 8 speed *is* different
(3.1mm for 7-speed, 3.0 for 8-speed).  Now, while you can adjust for this, he
thought that you'd probably be adjusting it all the time.

Wonder if the eight-speed cogs and spacers will fit on a 7-speed cassette?
Shimano probably thought of this and made sure it wouldn't work.

                                                           -- Mike

    	Latest VeloNews has (Volume 21, Number 5, Page 6) the
    	official reply from Wayne Stetina regarding various
    	comments in the mag and elsewhere about the very thing
    	you guys are discussing. I'd type it in but it's pretty
    	long and I feel lazy today. I know, what else is new?
    
    	Scott

    Well, you could just say whether or not it's supposed to work!
    
    my guess is that since the reply is long there's a lot of gibberish
    from which one is expected to glean the needed information.
    
    ed

    
    
    And we all know what came out of that publication 5 days ago, don't we?
    
    Graham. :*)
    

    
    
    	I test rode one of the new TREK 5300 last weekend.  Basically
    a purple Kestral.  It comes standard with Ultegra STI and worked
    fine.  As far as the rear dropouts go, I imagine it is spaced to
    take the Integrated-8 (Dura-Ace) because 1)all the new "high-end"
    bikes seem to and 2) it is offered as an upgrade option.  
    	Again, as far as I could tell on a 10 mile ride, it worked
    fine, but who am I to judge?  I'll never use it since I use the
    large Scott Aero Bars and mount the brakes in the inverted position...
    I couldn't resist those brake calipers though!
    
     2
    r

A quote from Mr. Stetina's diatribe (which was issued in response to some reader
complaints about Shimano "upgrading" the designs of their components to imcompat-
ible ones from year to year):

     _All_ Shimano rear derailleurs, road and mountain bike, have exactly
     the same cable-stroke shift-lever compatibility with _one_ exception.
     Dura-Ace uses shift-lever "clicks" spaced nearly 20 percent closer to-
     gether than other Shimano levers, and therefore uses a rear derailleur
     with a corresponding stroke.

This statement would make it seem that the STI shifters should be completely
compatible with 7-speed derailleurs.

Oh, well--I guess I'll just have to try it to find out.

                                                 -- Mike

    You might check out note 2084 for my somewhat emotional ;-) diatribe
    on STI.
    
    While 7-speed spacing may be 3.1mm and 8-spd may be 3.0, remember that
    it's a tenth of a millimeter -- functionally you will find little if
    any difference.
    
    STI *will* work with 7-speed, provided that your levers and rear derailleur
    are compatible (i.e., don't try Ultegra levers with a Dura-Ace
    derailleur, or vice-versa...and be wary -- two well-established dealers
    have told me that Ultegra levers will work with a Dura-Ace rear-d).  
    
    I've recently switched to 8-speed because my new frame had 130mm
    spacing in back and I wanted the extra cog, but I still don't have a 
    cassette hub.  I'm using Mavic hubs with a Regina cluster and an ATB
    Sedis, and I'm doing fine -- not quite as smooth as Hyperglide, but I 
    still only miss one shift in a thousand.
    
    I'll argue the point about bar-end shifters working as well as 
    STI, since I have both.  I use bar-ends for winter riding, since 
    heavy gloves tend to get stuck in STI levers.
    
    When I'm using clip-on aero bars, the shifters don't matter so much, since 
    I still have to take a hand off the clip-on to shift.  Either STI or 
    bar-end beats reaching for the down-tube, which leaves me steering 
    with one hand -- something I'm quite capable of, but which I'd rather
    not do if given the choice.
    
    However, to shift with bar-ends, you still have to move your hand back
    to the end of the bar.  Partly for this reason I cut off the last 3cm
    of each side of my bar before mounting the bar-ends.
    
    With STI you can shift from the drops, or when riding on your
    brakehoods.  8 times out of 10, you don't have to change hand position
    to shift, which is where STI beats Ergo -- with the latter, your thumb
    is in the wrong position when you're on the hoods, and you have to 
    compensate.
    
    The STI really shines in climbs.  When you fudge a shift at 7mph on
    a 15% grade, it's a real effort to get back up to 7mph again.  Loss of
    momentum costs you position in a race, or it can cost you balance when
    you're touring on a weighted bike.  
    
    With STI, even if you do fudge a shift, the correction can be instant,
    because you've never taken your hand off the shift lever to return it
    to its original position on the bars.  The only way you can make this 
    true with bar-ends is if you climb in the drops.
    
    During Killington I'd rather be carrying an extra 6 ounces up Brandon Gap 
    than miss a shift and watch 30 riders go by me as if I'm standing still
    (which I am, for all intents and purposes).
    
    "Read my lips..."  
    
    Stetina doesn't address function of STI with 7-speed in his letter to
    VeloNews, probably because it's company line to say you have to have 
    8-speed Hyperglide with STI.  Shimano must think that this increases their 
    sale of hyperglide hubs, when in fact it may be limiting sales of their STI
    levers.  Wayne's kind of a milky-mouth (hell of a rider though, and little 
    brother Dale was even better).
    
    Shimano is a real strange mix of innovation, scrupulous testing (STI
    was on the pro circuit for 2 years before being released to the market
    -- one of the reasons I didn't hesitate to get it when I had the
    money), hype (oval chainrings), arrogance, planned obsolescence, and 
    debatable service.  They could learn something from Mavic or Campagnolo 
    on how to treat their market.
    
    But Campy and Mavic are still playing catch-up when it comes to
    development.
    
    Justin 

	I read in BICYCLING that Shimano plans on adding STI to their 
	105 SC line this fall. Since the 105 SC is a 7-speed, the new shifters
	may solve the 7-speed to 8-speed upgrade dilema. I'd be interested
	to know if Shimano will sell the shifters seperately or as a set 
	including calipers like the Ultegra STI. 

	Nick

     Just a little FYI - I know you don't have to go to the 8spd
    cassette set-up with Campy. You can install the Ergos and run
    7spds... My guess is you could probably save some money if you
    wanted with the Shimano stuff (even though you're still stuck
    with buying the brakes).
    
     Chip

Okay, I've read all the notes I could find on STI, but I still have questions.
My husband really, really, REALLY wants STI for Christmas.   I'd really,
really, REALLY like to get it for him, but I'm wondering if he can use it
with his current setup.  Here's the scoop:

I'd like to get the Ultegra 600 STI shifters/brake levers.

He's got:

	Shimano 500 EX derailleurs
	Shimano HG91 7-speed cassette

His bike is aluminum and I doubt the dropouts are wide enough for 8-speed,
so he'll be staying with 7-speed.

Will the Ultegra STI work w/the Shimano 500 EX derailleurs?  Am I going to
have to buy him new derailleurs too?

Thanks,
Mrs. Claus

Sue,

I hate to tell you this but I am pretty sure the DA and Ultegra STI is only in
8 speeds. This means you need a 130mm rear hub spacing instead of the 126mm.
Since your husband bike is Aluminium, I would not recommend trying it. 

Hope this will save you some money. 

Also STI will be in the 105 group next year. You are looking at about $1200
for a Cannondale 105 STI next year. 

Dave 

Sue,

I've heard of this unsupported way of making STI work on 7 speed.

Buy an eight speed cassette and take the spacers out and use them for the 7 
speed spacers. They are only 2 tenths of a millimeter wider than normal 7 speed
spacers. The cogs MUST be hyperglide. If not the shifting will not be anything 
like it should be.

OR go Campy.

I've heard Campy Ergo levers are much more forgiving in that they accept 7 speed
rear spacing as well as 8 speed. They are lighter and the cable routing is under
the tape. 

Tom

    we do have Ultegra STI working on Lindas 7 spd Ultegra cassette and
    deraileur.  She's not 100% happy with the set up and it needs more
    adjustment than my 8 on 8 setup.
    
    I don't know about your deraileur's capability.
    
    ed

	Yikes!  I think I'm going to have to forget it.  Mark will be
	majorly bummed.  Now I'm down to SPD for the mtn bike, or a
	new watch....

	Thanks for the quick responses.  You kept me from blowing a 
	lot of money on something he wouldn't be able to use!

	Sue

	I ran a 7 speed Ultegra setup with STI for over 1500 miles this
	summer. It worked fine, though I did have to trim the front der.
	in the middle of the cluster. They (Buchikas) set it up to lock out
	the last position on the rear shifter. I then had them stretch the
	frame to 130mm spacing, replace the body on the hub to take the 8
	speed cassette, and redish the wheel. It works fine.

	I just replaced the front der. with the new type (6401) and it works
	much better (i.e. quicker shifts) and doesn't need the trimming like
	the old one.

	Even with the extra trimming, it is worth it.

	garry.

I got this latest correspondence from Mike "Bat" Buchanan.  He just converted
his Tesch from 7 speed to STI.  Here is the story on his conversion:

---
    
First of all you can go 7-speed STI by buying the slimmer 8 speed spacers.
CycleCraft had them for $2.75 each.  The cogs are the same, just the spacers
are different.  I thought about that route but then decided to convert my
existing wheels.  You don't need to buy new hubs or build whole new wheels.
The hub shell is the same (perhaps an oversight on Shamino's part).  You need a
longer axel, an 8 speed freehub and a couple spacers.  The wheel needs to be
slightly redished, about 2 mm.  I had CycleCraft convert my two Ultegra rear
wheels and the total price cam to $80, so $40 per wheel is a lot better than a
whole new set of wheels.  BTW, there is also no difference between a hyperglide
and non-hyperglide hub shell, so anyone who wants to stay at 7 speed but use
the new hyperglide cogs (it's hard to find non-hyperglide cogs anymore) you can
do that by just replacing the freehub.  It is also possible to convert a
standard hub by using a Millard 8 speed freewheel although they said that this
puts requires even more dish.
    
Since I have nice Dura-Ace brakes I definitely didn't want new ones.
Fortunately they are beginning to sell just the levers.  I got mine mail order
from a place called Howling Dog for $239.  I also got a new cog set there as
well for $29.
    
Installation is pretty straight forward with one exception.  The levers come
with new brake and derailluer cables.  The brakes cables install exactly like
normal aero levers.  The one possible problem for do-it-yourselfers is cutting
the cable which runs from the levers to where the old down tube levers used to
be.  This is a serious piece of work and you should have the specially designed
tool to cut it.  I didn't so I carefully used a fine blade hack saw and then
hand filed it smooth.  This is definitely not a good idea.  I guess I got away
with it but I feel pretty lucky and would not recommend it.  Note that the
instructions don't say anything about cutting these cables.
    
Also note that a pre 7-speed ultegra rear derailluer does work fine.  I had
heard some people say that they didn't have enough range.  I didn't buy a new
one but was prepared to if it didn't work.  But as I said, no problem.  All
Shamino front derailluers are compatable so I kept the Dura-Ace.
    
So, for anyone who currently has an Ultegra bike the total cost to upgrade to
STI would be:
    
    Rear wheel conversion    $40, less if you do the work
    STI levers              $239
    cogs                     $29
    new bar tape              $7
                            ----
                            $315
    
I took this time to also replace the chain and well worn chain rings although
most people wouldn't have to do this.
    
How's it work you ask?  Love it!  I wish that they routed the cables unders the
tape like Campy.  Actually that cable which I said is tough to cut would be
impossible to route under the tape, it's too stiff.
    
The brake hoods look different from the regular ones.  The top/front is ball
shaped  rather than coming to a point.  It looks funny at first but I instantly
liked it better.  It gives you a new position, you put your hands straight out,
palms down and put that "ball" right in your palm.  I used to do this with my
old levers but could only stand it for a minute or two, the pointed hood was
not comfortable.