Conference noted::bicycle

    
    It's all personal prefernce, I'm afraid. Look at the saddles that you've
    used in the past and work out what it was about each that you liked. Pu
    them altogether and you'll discover your saddle made in heaven. It
    won't exist, but buy what comes closest...
    
    Graham.

    I have bought two Italia(sp) Ti saddles each one was about $35.00 and
    they look like they would be comfortable but they are extremely
    comfortable though they don't look like they would be!
    
    Tim

>    I have bought two Italia(sp) Ti saddles each one was about $35.00 and
>    they look like they would be comfortable but they are extremely
>    comfortable though they don't look like they would be!

speak fer yerself. If you're talking about the selle italia flite I found the
thing unbearable.

Graham is right. It's personal preference. A friend once told me, "Asking about
saddles is like asking about wine.".

I wish there was a way you could "demo" a saddle before buying. sigh.

    I don't see any women replying to this note...this seems to be an
    IMPOSSIBLE task for a woman.  I have yet to find a saddle that will get
    me through my commute to work and back (40 miles round trip).
    
    There seem to be very few saddles designed for women, but if anybody
    has any advise, I'd be GLAD to hear it.  I've ordered a Terry Sport 
    saddle with a shorter nose, wider back and a depression in the front.
    
    We'll see....
    
    Lisa  
    
    

    
    There are more saddles designed for women coming onto the market.
    Certainly Avocet started making them a few years ago with their GEL
    range.
    
    Graham.

    re: .4
    
    I'd be interested in hearing your opinion of the Terry saddle. My
    girlfriend is looking for a solution to that ongoing dilemma as well.
    I mentioned it to her but because I'd seen it in a catalog we had no 
    way of trying it out. 
    
    /todd

     Gimme a break! Get some miles on and break you butt in! That's
     the secret... :-)
    
     Unless of course, you have one of those Play-Dough fannies :-)...
    
     chip_who_seems_to_have_cast_iron_on_the_bottom

    This really is a religious/philosophical topic, ain't it? ;=>
    
    I'm long since sold on the old original (leather) Brooks saddles;
    after several early years of riding on the various gel alternatives
    I read a statement that really changed my perspective (I read it in
    this Notesfile, actually): something to the effect of finding a
    saddle that changes form to fit your anatomy rather than expecting
    the inverse to happen. Although it takes many, many hours of riding,
    the leather saddles will eventually form to fit you (and you alone -
    don't plan on loaning your bike out to others); I've migrated old
    trusty saddles from bike to bike, and I currently have two Brooks
    saddles (one on my racer, one on my touring bike) that I wouldn't
    trade away for anything.
    
    And they're even available now with Ti rails!!
    
    	/Harry (who also has cast-iron-and-chap-leather-on-his-buttocks)
    
    P.S. Unfortunately, I can't comment on how well the Brooks saddles
         work for women; I suspect that all of the traditional problems
         persist, and would have to second the earlier recommendation
    	 of looking at the Avocet and other gender-specific alternatives.

    	Back during RAAM '92, Ed Kross was starting to have minor
    	problems with his saddle/butt interface. We took his old
    	leather saddle off the spare bike and put it on his primary
    	bike. He finished the race on the leather saddle.
    
    	Scott

My wife tried the Terry saddle and did not care for it.  She has not really found a 
saddle that she likes yet, but has managed to get used to the Avocet Racing saddle 
that came on the Bridgestone RB-1.

The biggest problem with the Terry saddle is the lack of positions, but as has 
been stated here many times already your mileage may vary...

Scott

    The saddle is the most critical part of the HBI but it's such a
    personal preference thing, especially for women.  Linda has
    several different types but prefers the Avocet 50 -- 'nuff so that
    we had one overnighted to us when we were in Texas in March.
    She doesn't like the Terry.
    
    We have about 20 saddles of various types hanging about (10
    not mounted on bikes :-).)

    
    My girlfriend also had a lot of discomefort with her new bike/saddle. 
    After trying a few different saddles, she picked up a Gel saddle 
    especially made for women. (Wider & shorter) . added one of those 
    Spenco gel covers for additional cushin, but most important, she 
    change the stem so that the handle bars are now slightly closer and 
    a bit higher, so she sits more upright. This is a mountain bike by 
    the way. 
    Results have been that from a one hour uncomfortable ride, now we 
    ride for hours going through nasty terrain, bumps , rocks and
    everything else. 
    
    Shaw
    

In particular, 292 has 52 replies some of which deal with women's
saddles...

Somewhere in here there is a long string - dir/title="saddle"
doesn't seem to come up with it - that got into hilarious gruesome
anatomical detail about saddles and comfort - some replies made me blush...
I believe our Mr. Perez was liberally represented.

	Note 67 and its MANY replies is the long string I think you
	have in mind...  I think that's where "HBI" was first defined.

	I have the new (last year) model Terry saddle, and I like it.
	Rode the PMC with it (i.e., LONG riding, many hours...) and 
	had no problem.  (My bike is a Bianchi Eros road bike.)

	I didn't have the position problems stated in other replies. 
	I had a _good_ fit kit done at Belmont Wheel Works, and
	I'd bet that's why I didn't have so many issues with positioning problems.

	jill

	Belmont Wheelworks had an excellent selection of saddles as of a few
	weeks ago. Many Terry & Avocet models.

	I myself like the Sella Italia Flite.

	-tom

    
    	My favorite saddle is the old version of the Avocet Racing 1, also 
    sold as the Criterium model. And, as previously stated it really is a
    matter of personal preference. I like a saddle with a relatively flat
    top (when viewed from the side). The Rolls appears to be another saddle
    that I might personally like, although I've never tried one.
    
    	I have tried the Flite Titanium. It's okay, but not as comfortable
    on a long ride. I find myself sliding forward into the narrow "valley" 
    area when I would like to be further back. Tilting it up makes the nose
    portion appear too high.
    
    	My wife likes wider gel saddles. She is currently using a Surfas.
    
    	I've found some good quality older model saddles at blow out
    prices, too. More expensive ones have not proven to be better for me.
    
    Ed.
    	 

     Real men use the post! :-)

I'm with .8

I went back to Brooks leather when I stopped doing big mileages and have 
stayed with them ever since, with several different models of Professional.  
The secret is to ride them, ignore the early hardness and then to look after 
them - they will repay you many times over.  I do 10000+ km/year at present 
and rarely suffer from saddle-soreness.  Of course, they are heavy, 
old-fashioned and gain low points in the Poser Stakes, but you can't have 
everything....

On the subject of women's saddles, the only one my wife got on with was a 
Brooks B15 Swallow which I used for 5 years and then rejected for the 
new-fangled plastic ones (this was about 1964).  This was a conventional 
length saddle in leather, with minimal width which seems in direct contrast 
to the short fat varieties which seem on offer for women today.  For what 
it's worth, Brooks have recently re-introduced this model and we are making 
enquiries to get one.

	...not sure if it was written,
	and it almost goes with out saying, but...

	a comfortable pair of padded biking shorts
	improves _any_ saddle--considerably.

	jill

I have found more saddle discomfort comes with a lower saddle position. I don't
quite know why this is but it's always been true for me.

    re: several...
    
    Chip - you're an animal!  and totally without empathy for those of us
    who have a more sensitive 90's kind of HBI!
    
    re: .13:
    
    Actually it wasn't me represented - it was Mrs. Perez who provided the
    HBI in question - I was merely the kindly person attempting to remedy
    her discomfort - primarily because I AM a kindly 90's kinda sensitive
    new-age guy - but also because of other activities she proscribed
    during her periods of discomfort!
    
    BTW:  How come your bike shops won't let you try saddles?  We have one
    here in Minneapolis that let my wife try at LEAST half a dozen saddles
    and bring them back until she found the one that was closest to being
    comfortable...

    Jill had a good point in .20.  A good pair of cycling shorts are worth
    5 times their weight in gold.  Also, rubbing some vaseline on one's
    bottom before a ride helps, it help prevent sticking of clothing ( the
    sticking increases the discomfort considerably ).
    
    Other than those two comments I don't have any other thing that I would
    recommend to women, given the structural differences that one has to
    consider.
    
         Abe;

>   Also, rubbing some vaseline on one's
>   bottom before a ride helps, it help prevent sticking of clothing ( the
>   sticking increases the discomfort considerably ).
 
    Or you could be a little less perverted and rub into the chamois of
    your shorts instead...  :*)
       
    Graham.

    Re; .22 (a little more compassion) What next? Inflatable johnny seats?
    
                                 :-)
    
    Don't get me wrong, I'm a 90's guy. I've stopped running over crossing
    guards, switched from assualt weapons to handguns, I support Clinton,
    I live in fear of being laid-off, etc...
    
    Sheesh, one little comment... :-)

    
    Saturday I switched the saddle on my MTB supposedly top end gel racing
    saddle that came with the bike with a Selle San Marco Titanio 200. 
    What a difference a seat makes ;-) Spent the whole day off road (about
    a good 5 hours of hard riding and I loved them, my most comfortable 
    saddle, I might even change the Flites on my road bike with one of
    these.
    
    Shaw

    >Don't get me wrong, I'm a 90's guy. I've stopped running over crossing
    >guards, switched from assualt weapons to handguns, I support Clinton,
    >I live in fear of being laid-off, etc...
    
    >Sheesh, one little comment... :-)

    OK, Chip, I was wrong...  You ARE a sensitive new-age guy!  It was the
    crossing-guard thing that did it!  I humbly apologize and won't make
    any more comments about your apparently cast-iron "interface"! :^)

    Hey look, Chip is strictly Ti...
    
    :-)
    
    ed

     <- ...and it's embarrassing when I get frisked trying to get through
        the metal detectors at airports!!! :-)
    
        Chip

    Re .24
    
    Graham, the problem with doing the vaseline job the way you suggest is
    that un-greased underwear is still in contact with the skin.  People 
    who do not wear underwear under their biking shorts can grease the
    chamois.  I wear underwear when I ride so I have to grease my skin.
    You had one good point, I did feel perverted the first time I tried the
    procedure, I remember laughing and looking around eventhough I was
    alone in my bathroom in an empty apartment.  But now I consider the 
    procedure normal, I hope this does not say something about my mental
    state :-)
    
          Abe;
     

    
    Cycling shorts are designed to be worn without underwear, that's the
    idea behind the chamois. A lot of discomfort can be gained with the
    rubbing of underwear against the skin. Putting vaseline directly onto
    the skin will help, but I would guess that if you were putting in long
    rides (centuries and such like), the lubrication would dry up sooner.
    
    The other reason behind no underwear is for circulation. This is why pro
    riders are massaged with just a towel around them. I have only once
    received a proper professional sports massage. I was riding for my town
    in an Olympiad in Holland and the organisers had arranged every athlete
    to get one full massage from a qualified sports therapist. Three of us
    went along at once, I was wearing cycling shorts and the others wear
    wearing civvies. The other two were turned back because they wouldn't
    massage them with underwear, whereas they had no issue with me in
    shorts. And why do I feel even more perverted writing about this?  :*)
    
    Graham.

     <- Because you clearly are... :-)
    
     .30 Undies, eh? Are these your traditional boxers or Fruit of the Loom
         variety? :-)
    
     Seriously, underwear have a lot of stitching and seams. Plus they'll
     probably have a tendency to hold a lot more persperation beyond the
     sans undy method. IMHO, they serve no purpose other than to give the
     rider potential problems. 
    
     But hey, whatever you're comfortable in. Just, please, don't tell us
     they're Danskins! :-)
    
     Chip

    I wouldn't use vaseline because I figure it clogs the pores and
    would eventually cause saddle sores.  Then again nothing gets
    between me and my Descentes...
    
    ed

    
    
    I second the Descentes too, ever since I picked them all my other 
    cycling shorts have been retired.  I do not do miles like some of you. 
    I do 25-30 miles regularly on the road or hours of mountain biking on
    bumpy terrain never had to use vaseline for this purpose I can't even
    imagine the yucky feeling wearing a pair of shorts with vaseline on
    the crotch. 
    
    Shaw

    Avoid the greasies (an calories) with Pam. Crisco is passe... :-)

    
    With the new Sham-Tex material, I don't bother with vaseline, but I
    have a couple of pairs of bib-shorts that have a real chamois in them.
    They have a bad habit of going very dry and hard when they have been
    washed, so the vaseline had to be used to soften it a little.
    
    Graham.

    I have to say something here. Definately the way to go is without.....
    I mean shorts only, besides if you wipe out, rip your shorts, what do 
    you think all the fans of the female variety are cheering for when you 
    ride by?? Sorry, sexist maybe but I couldn't resist. Also a little bit
    of the old Gold Bond Powder help with shorts, couldn't  believe the
    difference!!
    
    		Ride On---------->
    			Tim

    RE .36
    As discussed elsewhere (Euro_randonneur? cycling?) a good thing for all
    shorts but especially real chamois ones is antiseptic cream, especially
    for long days in the saddle it can be real effective at controlling 
    saddle sores.  I tend to alternate between a grease-based dressing and
    a antiseptic one.
    
    And I'm sure someone in ::cycling recommended cow-udder-chap cream.....

    	Cow-udder-chap cream is Bag Balm.
    
    	Scott

    Thanks Scott !

     Besides... Vaseline is only good for one thing....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
     Chapped Lips! Okay, everyone calm down :-)

    To .34,
    
         Shaw, I wear Decentes also and agree that they are awesome.  I
    realy don't spend my shorts purchase on any thing else.
         I disagree with you on the vaseline, though, it gives me a nice
    warm feeling when I apply it, this, I think, helps with muscle action
    in my high upper thigh.
         As far as underwear versus no underwear, I have chosen to wear
    underwear because I am somewhat self-concious.  If I tore open my
    bike shorts and exposed rearend ( and I have ), I want to keep the 
    exposure to a minimum, I won't pull off my shirt to cover my butt
    because I don't go bare-chested in public.  I guess that everyone
    has some type of problem that they have to deal with in life.
    
         Abe;  

  I've seen ads for cycling underware.
They have no seams.

  JC

Another vote for the Descentes.  My best rides are when they are between
the saddle and me.

And I use Vaseline with no problems.  I just make sure that I dab it on
the areas most sensitive to chafing.  Also, make sure you try to wash it
out real well.  After a ride, I pour liquid detergent on 'em and scrub it
in before putting them in the wash.

According to the BOB Gazette, the folks at Bridgestone recommend
Noxzema.  It lubricates, yet washes out well.  I'd try it, but I 
just can't seem to find any on the shelves.  BOB dudes must be buying
it out.

Oh yeah, my saddle: Avocet O2 racing.  Light and comfortable, already
done three centuries on it this year and expect to ride a double on it 
next week.  I had a Flite, but found it was jarring on rides longer than
70 miles.

AAA

>         As far as underwear versus no underwear, I have chosen to wear
>    underwear because I am somewhat self-concious.  If I tore open my
>    bike shorts and exposed rearend ( and I have ), I want to keep the 
>    exposure to a minimum,
    
    But you don't look as heroic if you crash and you don't end up with
    half a cheek hanging out of your shorts. For a start you get far more
    sympathy...  :*)
    
    Graham.

    <- And your only on the hook for replacing the cycling shorts
       (and not ruining a good pair of undies)... See, a financial
       dimension to the this arguement... :-)
    
       Chip

    
    Exactly. Your skin mends free. That's why you should always break a
    fall with your body, not your bike... :*)
    
    And how did we manage to rathole this?  :*)
    
    Graham.

     <- Who knows... Pass the cheese :-)

    Chip,
    
         Why don't you just cut your own cheese :-)
    
    
    Goodnight;
         Abe
    

     Whenever I do that (cutting cheese) at work people get all over
     me... :-)
    
     Besides, cheese parties are not individual sporting events anyway!
    
     Abe, you mean this has sunk low enough yet to label it degenerated???
    
     Chip

    
    And Chip, it was all your own work....  :*)
    
    Graham.

    SEE! SEE! And earlier he took umbrage with me for just HINTING that he
    was a degenerate! :^)

Well, we had some Touret de l'Aubier last night which was in an interesting 
state of advanced decomposition (and therefore delicious) - I'm wondering 
whether I should change the habits of a lifetime and rub that into myself 
instead of antiseptic cream.  Mind you, I do really prefer blue cheese so I 
suppose I should think about gorganzola instead.

Which ratholing-ly brings me to a dinner we had where some Am_r_c_ns were 
present and they thought I was joking when I said you killed cheese by 
putting it in the fridge - they seemed to think it would go bad if it was 
left out...  Mind you, I also recounted about the time we had some Brie on a 
cheese-board which flowed to such an extent that the other pieces of cheese 
were like islands in a cream ocean - they seemed also to think that it was a 
shame because I would have had to throw it away because it had gone like 
that.....

.... I have been on holiday for a while and am finding it hard to get 
serious.....

But to get back to the real subject, I did a ride of 170km (in the dreaded 
Var) and another of 210km along the Riviera in the space of 4 days.  I used 
Nalini shorts, Boots antiseptic cream and Brooks Pro leather - no problems 
apart from the pains in the legs of course.

     We h-a-v-e to refigerate our cheeses here becuase of all the
     additives. Otherwise, they'd be fine... :-)
    
     Chip 

    What's hip and trendy in saddles this year? I broke my Turbomatic...
    
    
    Rod

    I've been using my Brooks Pro all Spring.  We have just about rereached
    an accomodation.
    
    ed

    Another vote for Brooks and yes they come with Ti rails.
    Or you could wait for a couple of weeks and get the recently
    relaunched swallow.       

re -.1

but hardly hep and trendy, so I guess they are a wash-out...

    I decided to reply to this note to share my experiences with any future
    reader of this note.
    
    I've been through a few saddles and here is my story...
    
    My first bike was a takara frame and it had a cruddy saddle, at the
    time I purchased a  avocet RS saddle. This was a good 10 years ago. It
    was a simple leather over molded plastic saddle, before the days of
    hollow and titanium rails and 200gm. saddles. It broke in and was a
    nice saddle. It still is on that takara and still is pretty good.
    
    Later on I got a cannondale and it had a Vetta saddle, a vinyl over
    foam job, which might sell for about 10 bucks. It was comfortable
    enough and had a good shape. So when I go a new bike I got a new Vetta
    saddle, a mens racing VSA saddle. This is gel saddle. Well, after about
    a year, the gel broke down and formed lumps under the leather, so I got
    a Vetta SL saddle. The SL lasted 2 months before the saddle caved in
    and the cover came unglued and came off. Junk.
    
    So finally here I am today. I am now using a San MArco Regal. It's
    heavy, but it is major comfort. Check what the Pro's ride. You'll see
    a lot of Regal's, Rolls and Turbo's. These guys ride major miles and
    rack up major saddle time. They wouldn't ride it if it hurt.
    
    Now, take the above with this caveat. I'm a 190 pound rider. For a big
    guy todays 200 gm. saddles don't have the rigidity for a heavy rider.
    Take this as a test...on a bike with a specific saddle mounted, just
    put the heel of you hand in the center of the saddle and press down.
    Imagine the weight your body will generate when you sit on it. Some of
    the light saddles, VETTA SL, TT, Mythos etc. will flex right down to
    the setpost bolt. I didn't enjoy this effect when I had my SL on the
    bike. My brothers referred to my vetta sl saddle as "the hammock" due
    to its depression in the center.
    
    Anyhow, its saddles are very personal, but I would recommend you look
    at the "classic" saddles and avoid all the hype associated with some of
    the newer products. Go with the comfort!
    
    Ron

    It's unfortunate that it's not practical to ride 'em all then pick
    one... It would insure everyone bought the right saddle for their
    particular weight/configuration/riding habits.
    
    It wouldn't be like me (and I don't want to disappoint anyone) not to
    make one point. Pressing into the saddle with your hand is a good test
    to see what the flex is from the shell. However, the butt-to-saddle
    contact point is primarily the upper/rear saddle area.
    
    I know we're treading into a highly subject area. In fact, this has
    been discussed several times (at length) in here. 
    
    I use a Selle Italia Evolution. I did back to back centuries on it
    this summer, road raced, crit'd, and TT'd. After the centuries, the
    thing that didn't hurt was my butt.
    
    The REGAL was my first real (serious) racing saddle. I still have it on
    my beater. It's still comfortable, but alas, I'm getting more and shell
    showing where my massive thighs rub :-)...
    
    Chip

    A crappy seat clamp succeeded in breaking a saddle rail on my
    turbomatic titanium saddle recently. It hurts to ditch a 40 quid saddle
    for a reason like that. So here are some stupid questions: is it easy
    to replace a saddle rail? Does anyone have a dead turbomatic from which
    I can cannibalise the saddle rails? Is it possible to buy replacement
    saddle rails from Selle Italia? Does anyone have an address for Selle
    Italia in Europe?
    
    
    Rod

Typical - spend mega-cash on a titanium saddle, then use a cheapo seatpin, 
and finally have the nerve to complain.  No sympathy whatsoever -

yrs predictably

Codger

PS I'll look for am ad for SR in a back number of Velo 2000

    I've destroyed two titanium railed saddles over the years.  One bent
    the rails, the other broke a rail.  Both had over 10000 miles on them
    so I figure they didn't owe me anything.
    
    ed

    I was only trying to put a comfy saddle on a cheapo loan bike I
    used this summer. Come to think of it, it was the too-big Raleigh
    which gave me back pain and on which I did La Marmotte, complete with
    red rear reflector above the back brake. It was quite a new saddle and
    that's why I wasn't gruntled about breaking it.
    
    
    Rod

   Re .63

   Getting less than a years use of a saddle before it breaks is simply
   unacceptable!!  (Hell, JohnLee would have broken 3 of them in that time...)

   No TI (saddles) for me!

   - Jim

    considering that I was regularly rotating bikes in those days, no
    bike or saddle got more than 3K mi/year.  they lasted a few years.
    
    ed