Conference noted::bicycle

Dear Larry,

Get a wheel to suck.  And, watch out for pollen.  I had a miserable time
breathing this weekend (sneezed hundreds of times) and I didn't turn a crank.

Signed,
Dr. Notesfile
Aka "A Good Wheel to Suck"

    It's not that uncommon to delevop allergies to certain pollens
    later in life.
    
    On the other hand, to those of us that don't have any problem with
    pollen (or headaches, or...), we all think you're f**ked in the head.
    ;-)  

Could be lots of things, Larry. It could be allergies.
I, myself, have just recently been introduced to the
joys of the fauna of New England and its' gift in the
air.

Just off hand, it seems like you consumed a lot of
liquid and fuel for the ride, however it should not
have affected your breathing.

Allergies would obviously affect your breathing. Being
a little fatigued and not being able to get heart rate
up would leave you feeling that way as well.

Then again, you might not ever figure it out. There is 
a very real thing called "off days".

Chip

-1 I meant flora (you wise guys)!

   Chip

>	Water consumption:  20 oz of water before first stop.  16 oz of
>	fruit juice at stop.   16 oz of water and a few fig newtons the
>	rest of the way.  I had a hard time drinking as well the last few 
>	miles.

How long was the stop?  At what point in the ride? And what happened to the
banana?  I know I can not drink 16oz (of anything) and eat a banana and hop
on a bike and go again.  Its worse with food (for me.)  It usually does not
affect breathing necessarily, but gives me cramps and I have to sit up.

If I try to ride too soon after a meal (crackers, fruit, juice, random snacks)
my legs dont turn around too well either.  Again, not breathing, but perhaps
related?

.02
--roger

>>    How long was the stop?  At what point in the ride? And what happened to
>>    the banana?  
    
    The stop lasted about 10-15minutes.
    The stop was after 30 very hilly miles at 17.5mph.
    I ate the banana at the stop.
    
    I'm inclined to believe that it was fatigue and heat that did me in.
    This has happenned to me before on century rides on hot days.  Not sure
    what to do about it though.  Drink more?  Drink more high tech stuff?
    Eat more?   Ride less (... I hope not).   
    
    Thanks for the input,
    -Larry

    
    	I would suggest not drinking so much during the actual stop,
    	and instead spread the same amount of liquid over the ride
    	instead.  All that liquid gets funneled right through you and
    	sits in your stomach for a little while [simplified biology,
    	but you get my drift] ... long enough to "fill you up" and
    	slow you right down.
    

    Difficulty breathing ?  In Colorado, we use supplemental oxygen.  Maybe 
    you can strap a scuba tank on your back.  I know it adds a little weight, 
    but at least you have a choice - light and breathless or heavy and happy. ;)

    
    	Titanium oxygen tank, of course, with titanium valves and tit-
    	anium hoses.
    

    
    Larry, 
    
    Your brake was rubbing again.  %^)
    
    Jim

    You must train in the environment you wish to perform.  A combination
    of heat and pollens could easily be a 20% performance loss.  Once the
    temps get "hot", which verys from person to person, you must adjust
    your exercise activities.  This includes the exercise itself, maybe
    slow down, or rest more often.  It includes how you rehydrate yourself,
    such as a little very often instead of alot once an hour.
    
    If you encounter more breathing problems in the future and common-
    sense doesn't fix it then maybe you should head for a doctor. 
    Allergies or other breathing problems could be becoming a part of
    you life and maybe the doc would tell you some simple over the
    counter medicine is all it takes to control it on those days.
    
    I generally have to take a sinus pill or spray prior to a scuba dive.
    
    Post your ideas a few weeks or months down the road so we can see
    how things turn out.

Shawn brings up a very good point. The more you load you stomach
up (particularly in quick fashion) the more contention between
your stomach and muscles for blood. That blood carries the oxygen 
to muscles that is very badly needed. Of course, your stomach
needs that blood to process all the stuff ending up there.

Over-eating/Over-drinking are certainly power/stamina robbing
variables.

    Hmmm.  Some very good feedback.  I'll summarize quickly
    
    Most likely causes ;-)
    	1. No wheel to suck
    	2. No titanium oxygen tank
        3. wheel was rubbing (I've used this one many times :-)
    
    Other:
    	4. Allergies ... the pollen counts are way up.
    	5. Heat ... In New England we dont have much time to adapt to this!
        6. Drank and ate too much at stop.
        7. Undetermined medical condition ... other than insanity which we
    		already know is true (I submit my Mt. Washington
    		registration as proof!)
        8. Just a bad day
    
    First I'd like to say this was very helpful (seriously).  My first vote
    is for number 6 followed by number 5 then number 8:  I drank and ate
    too much at my stop ... I did notice that I felt worse after the stop
    than before and never recovered.  I felt pretty good before I stopped.
    I think the heat contributed.  And possibly I have been riding a little
    too much for my advanced age (41) leading to some general fatigue
    overtraining etc.
         
    I dont think it was allergies because I have experienced this in
    allergy free environments (western tours) on very hot weather.  
    
    In the future I'll try to even out my drinking and eating and report back.
    
    Thanks for all your help,
    Larry

Advanced age? Hey, I was as old as you 3 years ago and I'm
going as fast as I ever have... Don't give up hope!

 Chip

Gee, Larry.  You never mentioned your age in the base note.  That would have
been my first pick for the cause!  ;-)

You sure your rear tire was seated properly in the rim?  I recall seeing
this problem afflict one or more of the novice riders on our lunchtime ride.
Particularly when the pace picks up a little.  ;-)

Seriously, though, I'd bet you ate and drank too much at the stop.  Try eating
less quanitities, but more often while on the bike.

-Buddy

    Your merciless Buddy .... I wouldnt have it any other way!  :-)
    
    steroids, .... thats what it is.  I forgot to take my daily dose ...
    
    BTW ... you missed a great hill ride today.
    -Larry

>>   I think the heat contributed.  And possibly I have been riding a little
>>  too much for my advanced age (41) leading to some general fatigue
>>  overtraining etc.

I'm with Chip here, I'm giving you 14 years and this season I have put in 
more km than usual being at 5200 by the end of May.  As a result I am going 
well and would do more if I had the time.  I don't believe there is such a 
thing as overtraining, this is an excuse by people who do lots of miles and 
then burn the candle at both ends by expecting to go out eating, drinking and 
making merry as well.

I also feel you guys try to be too scientific and rigid in your approach to 
riding which means you have difficulty in handling it if something unexpected 
happens.  Just be sensible and use your brains instead of reading so many 
manuals which are generally written by people who have never done it.  I 
remember riding with a guy who had to have a certain drink every 15 minutes 
handed up - it didn't matter if he was creeping up some great hill at the 
time or speeding down at 60's - he had to have it because his training manual 
said so.  He went to pieces after missing a couple ....

Oh and yes, there are "off" days which are unexplicable.

PS to my last note

Join a Yoga class and go once a week, it does wonders for your breathing if 
you can stand the sensation of being in a pre-natal relaxation class ...

    -1 Bwahahahahahahahaha...
    
       Hey, what a concept! ZEN cycling!
    
       Chip

    I tend to agree with you as well.
    However there are things that one should not do on a bike ride that are
    fairly obviously .... like eat a 10oz steak half way through a century
    ride.  As we become more experienced riders we learn the do's and
    don'ts.   I guess I was just wondering if there was something basic I
    was missing.  
    
    In recent years I have hooked up with more "serious" riders which has
    had its good and bad points.   The good is that I have learned better
    training habits which allow me to get in better physical shape in less
    time.  Now that I have a family, time is a precious commodity.   
    The bad side of this is it does become a little too scientific at
    times.   I worry that the science will take away from the simple joys
    of cycling that I have loved all my life. I hasn't yet. 
    
    -Larry
    
    ps. how much cytomax per hour of bike riding is recommended?  ...only
    kidding!

Maybe you should have you nose reamed out.

    Not a problem.  I have so much air in my head ... nose included,  that
    expansion is not an issue :-)
    
    I wouldnt be writing these notes if the above wasnt true!
    -L
    

Is that a Ti "Ommmm"?

;-)

    I'm entering this note because I'm reading a very boring spec ... 
    
    Point of observation:
    5 years ago when I didnt care the least about speed I could be having a
    bad day and never notice.  I'd just go a little slower and maybe feel a
    little more tired.  These days I push myself harder and to my limits.
    Its so much easier to tell now when something is not quite right. 
     
    ok ... back to the spec.
    
    -L

>>> Is that a Ti "Ommmm"?

'fraid not, you have to renounce all worldly values .....

    
    	Offer no resistance to the Zen mindset.
    
    	Ohmmmmmm!!
    

only through the possession of excessive amounts of Ti will
you find inner peace, my children.

-Ti Zen master

Of course, once you've bought this excess of Ti, it's very easy to dispense 
with worldly things like money, eating, paying the mortgage .....etc

RE:  <<< Note 3096.17 by HERON::virenq.vbo.dec.com::HEMMINGS "Lanterne Rouge" >>>
                            -< overtraining? huh! >-

>  .
>  .
>  .
>well and would do more if I had the time.  I don't believe there is such a 
>thing as overtraining, this is an excuse by people who do lots of miles and 
>then burn the candle at both ends by expecting to go out eating, drinking and 
>making merry as well.

I disagree here.  I think overtraining is possible if you don't use easy days
in your schedule.  It's not the physical activity itself that makes the body
stronger, but the rebuilding and recovery that happens afterwards.  Yes, the
harder the ride, the more benefit the recovery will provide.  For those that
ride every day, going hard all of the time is not going to get you fast results,
if any at all.  If you ride every other day and ride hard each time, then I
think the probability of overtraining is greatly reduced.

I always try to follow a hard day with an easy one.  A day of spinning is
supposed to provide a more active recovery than a full day off.  Occasionaly,
I'll put two hard days in a row together, but usually I try not to.

But, when I say hard, I mean really hard.  Like doing lots of intervals at
your max heart rate or doing the ride in time-trial mode.  (or trying to stay
on Tim or Jim's wheel on a hard ride - right Larry? ;-)

-Buddy

    I agree that overtraining is easy to do when you are in good shape and
    reaching middle age (40-ish).  The body & mind really need 'rest' days.  
    Remember those late teen/early 20's when your strength & endurance were
    hard to deplete ?  Unfortunately the late 30's bring on new challenges, 
    such as respect for the finite nature of life.

Both positions are correct. The difference really being
highlighted here is the definition of the term "over
training".

Riding hard every day is not training. It's simply riding
to exhaustion. Robin is correct. If there is a training
program in place (or a semblance of one) not many of us
have the ability to overtrain. Our bodies would simply
not allow it. 

There is a clinical definition of overtraining that not
only involves physical exhaustion, but anxiety, appetite
and digestive problems, mood swings, etc...

It's easy to over-ride. It's very hard to overtrain.
People who are out there riding hard think they're
in training when most are not.

Chip

P.S. It took me a while to get through this knot hole too.

This week it has been 30+C on the Cote, which is getting on for 90F and on 
the velo it's fine - far better than being in the office of course, but also 
better than just walking around in the sunshine.  I've made a deliberate 
effort to increase my water intake to 2,5 litres/day and non-gazeuse at that. 
The best thing is the effect the warmth has on the old legs, they feel 20 
years younger, as a matter of interest I am sweating far less than usual and 
I wonder if this is due to the fact that I am 5 kg (11lb.) less than usual.

Can't say I'm having problems with breathing (or anything else in particular) 
in fact at midi it's better than usual because all the tourists are cowering 
in the shade and are too hot to get into their cars and drive about.

I too, rode last Sunday (6/2) only on a tandem with my 9 yo son.
We did 47 miles which means *I* did a lot of work.  Since then 
I've had "difficulty" breathing and have been to the doctor.  His 
diagnosis was "most likely" a viral infection.  He told me to get 
a lot of rest and not to ride until I feel better.

Each day I've felt a little better.  (Both physical and mentally.)
Not knowing bothered me as much as anything.

My advise is see your doctor (and not ask cyclist for medical
advise :-)

  - Tim

what's up, doc?  Not enough breath to write??

    >> what's up, doc?  Not enough breath to write??
    
    My breathing is fine.... just practicing my carbon fiber hmmmmmmmmm.
    ;-)
    
    Actually did much better this weekend.  Tim and I road 107 miles with
    about 5000' of total elevation gain.  The weather was cloudy,
    humid but no rain and the temp was around 70F.    Our course took us
    through Wilton, Greenville, Temple, Jaffrey, Hancock, Stoddard,
    Gillsum,  Harrisville,  Dublin and back to Wilton.  A Beautiful ride
    through the Monadnock Mnts. of NH.  Just as Tim and I were talking
    about the simple joys of cycling a huge brown owl swoops over our heads
    and through the woods.   The bag pipe player is Dublin was also a nice
    treat.
    
    I road hard .. .Tim road easy. ;-)
    My breathing was normal for a ride this length .... something like
    total exhaustion.   I did not experience the same shortness of breath.
    It was more like shortness of everything.
    We stopped only for 20 minutes on the ride so I did not have any big
    snack break.  I tried to space out the eating a little more and I think
    it helped.... a boat anchor on Tim's bike would have helped more
    though.
    
    -Larry
                                                     

Also, if you experience exercise-related shortness of breath, you may 
want to ask your doctor about exercise-induced asthma. 



-Andy

i have EIA. however, i rarely feel the effects while riding. 
it's generally when i stop. the doctor can prescribe an inhaler
that works well for me.

Chip

    EIA hmmmm.  maybe.
    
    While I'm on the hypochondriac kick here I'd like to describe yet
    another common problem I have ... but it may be related ???
    When I do short hard rides with the lunchtime crew I quite often have
    difficulty eating/drinking afterwards.  Sort of like acid indigestion
    it really hurts going down.  It takes almost till the next day for it
    to completely go away.  Anyone else have this problem?
    
    -Larry
    

I couldn't tell you if it's related to your other problem
or not. I can definitely relate to it, however.

Eating immediately after any exercise is never recommended.
Particularly exercise of intensity. Most of the things I've
read recommend at least an hour or more after a ride.

This amount of time also fits into to the optimum "reload"
time frame.

Chip

    
    re .41:
    
    Waiting an hour or more is pretty excessive.  I usually 
    try to eat a banana and/or and orange after most types of
    rides.  Not right after I get off the bike, but well within
    an hour of the ride. I guess it boils down to your physiology.
    If you're hungry after a ride, you probably ought to eat 
    something. If you're not then don't. I think your body
    telling you if it's hungry is more reliable than using someone
    else's idea of what an optimum reload time is.
    
    Jim

    Gee, all I need to do is pound a couple of beers down while my heart
    rate is coming back to normal.  By the time I have settled down, I'm
    hungry too.  :-)

An hour is not excessive. Eating a banana is not eating
a meal (which is what I thought Larry might be referring
to).

We need to remember that the stomach needs a great deal of blood
to do its work. The blood will be contended for by a variety
of systems for sometime after the exercise. Trying to resume
"normal" activities while the body is still in an "abnormal"
state will almost always create some inconvenience/uncomfortablity.

There have been many articles written on the subject of eating
recommendations before - during - after a ride in most cycling
magazines.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Chip

    <<< Note 3096.43 by CONSLT::MCBRIDE "Idleness, the holiday of fools" >>>

    Gee, all I need to do is pound a couple of beers down while my heart
    rate is coming back to normal.  By the time I have settled down, I'm
    hungry too.  :-)


That's what I do too. For the longest time I could never decide whether
to have a beer or take a shower. Then I realized that I could bring the
beer into the shower...

bob

    Not that it would have made a difference, but it was at least an hour
    before I ate anything.  When this happens to me I could wait
    5 hours and still not feel all that great.
    This never happens to me when I ride at a moderate or slow pace.  Even
    for long distances like a century ride.  When I do my annual MS charity
    rides I'll eat myself silly without any problems.
      
    Its definately the result of great exertion in a relatively short period.
    Possibly breathing really hard and rapidly just rips my insides out ...
    I dunno?   I was just wondering if anyone else has this problem.
    The really sick part is that I come back and do it again and again and
    again :-)
    
    -Larry
    
    

I think I know what the problem is-- Larry just loves to complain.  If he didn't
have cycling to complain about, it would be something else.  You should have
heard him go on Saturday on that 107 miler.  I had to push the pace just enough
so he wouldn't have enough breath in him to moan.  I know he was thinking it
however...

;-)
Tim

Something like this can happen as a result of intense competition or 
training in running as well.  

I have experienced not being interested in eating and would not even try 
for a while after competition but would "snack" on juices and water.  This 
feeling would pass after ten or so minutes and I could if I wanted to eat 
more substantial "snacks" like bananas, orange slices.  Finally, I would 
return to being hungry after an hour or two (this time was more or less a 
natural result of showering, relaxing, getting some more to drink, etc.)  I 
did not try to eat so I do not know whether I would have felt the same as 
you had.  Somehow I do not think so.  

Listen to your body regarding eating but do get some fluids in when you 
can.

Rick

    what!  me complain?!  whine maybe ... never complain ;-)
    And as Bob S (.-2) knows ... if something effects my ability to eat then
    I get really upset!   After all isnt that one of greatest joys of
    cycling... bike lots eat lots :-)
    -L                

Has it been said before?

"... having cyclists to lunch is like inviting a plague of locusts - except 
that the cyclists eat more ..."

I don't think I know anyone I've ever ridden with that hasn't
complained about something. The Lord knows that cycling offers
plenty in that category. 

In fact, I think I enjoy complaining almost as much as cycling.
If I couldn't complain, cycling would be a very empty sport
for me. :-)

    well said! (both previous notes)
    -L