Conference noted::bicycle

    George,
    
      Having owned the Record shifters for afew years,I cant praise them
     enough,but not having seen the Mirage shifters I can't realy remark.
      I did see some lower end Campy sifters a few years ago and I was
    completely bumbed.They were realy cheesy,but I heard that they totaly
    revamped the line to be competitive with you know who.
     You might see if you can't upgrade before you even take the bike.
     I myself would like to get a touring ride,but I'm afraid if it had
    cantilever brakes I turn it in to a cyclo cross bike.
    
                                    
                                        Jack B.

    My recommendation is to hit a local shop and go take one outfitted
    with the Mirage for a spin. best testimony you'll get is from personal
    experience.

	
	I have a local shop (Frank's S & W) where they have a bike ready
	for my trial as soon as ice, sand and potholes allow. Certainly
	I will try it out!  ...but a test ride for a short period of time
	by someone who never used the Ergo style of shifting can't compare
	to someone who might have used them for thousands of miles and
	has generated real life history.

	I am told that the Ergo systems go like this from top to bottom:

	Record, Chorus, Veloce, Mirage and one at the bottom whose name
	escapes me.  Since Mirage is one away from the bottom, I hope
	that what Jack refers to as "cheesy" has indeed been modified.
	..and yes, I can upgrade to whatever line I like.  Tough decision
	coming from someone in my experience level.

	Thanks for your comments so far.

	George

    I agree, George. My point was that you shouldn't base your opinion
    on input alone. All of these mechanisms have different feels. Campy
    (I have had Record stuff for years). Campy tends to have a stiffer
    feel than the Japanese jun... I mean, stuff.
    
    Chip

Re the Campag kit.

Yes, the original stuff, which was produced in a hurry when Tullio realised 
the Yellow Peril were knocking his business into a cocked hat, was a bit 
tacky.  Since then, the yen has become overvalued and the lira has gone 
severely down the tubes so the price differentials have changed.  When it 
comes to style, give me Italian any time, the Shimano STI levers must be the 
most disgusting design ever produced - I know they work well, but ...

In addition, Campag have updated all their offerings regularly and more 
importantly are learning by their mistakes.  The 96 versions perform well and 
are extremely good value for money.  They have upgraded the top end by adding 
a bit more titanium and then dropped the concepts further and further down 
the range.  Thus the humble Mirage now has brakes of the same geometry as the 
Chorus of 5 years ago and you no longer need gorilla fingers to operate them.

They have also realised that tourists and other lovers of the wide-range 
would rather buy Campag than the other offerings, so they have produced very 
nice triple chainsets, plus front and rear mechs.  Once again, they are 
compatible with all the rest of the kit.

Another smart move is that all the components have the same look and 
functionality so you can chop and change between groups with no problems.  
For example, I put a little more demand on good brakes so I would consider 
using Athena for them while keeping the rest at Mirage.  Some bright ad-man 
has also been in on the act so that each group now has its name on it so the 
true poser just needs to leave his bike against the wall and everyone can 
read "Record Titanium" on it.  As a true cynic I consider this as a real 
badge engineering job - would you pay more for a Mirage set which has just 
been polished and re-stamped Athena??

My impression in use is that Shimano feels good at first but then it seems to 
go downhill.  With Campag, the initial feel is well .. a bit disappointing, 
but it generally gets better and then stays at that level - it always feels 
more solid in my opinion.  It's interesting to note that entry level bikes 
which were equipped 100% with Shimano 105 now tend to have Mirage which is in 
fact cheaper.

Just in case this all sounds truly like grovelling and glorifying the Italian 
engineers (I was going to say sycophantic but I don't think I can spell 
that), I must add a couple of criticisms -
1. Restricted range of sprockets
2. Ditto for chainrings

As a comparison, I list the 1996 group prices in French francs (let's say 5FF 
= $1) from my local shop (I can count on about 15% less by going Mail Order) 
-

Record   Chorus   Athena   Veloce   Mirage   Avanti
9460     6350     5060     2990     2430     1890

Let's be honest about it - while it is wonderful to have a full Record 
ensemble, how many of us normals can justify paying 9460 instead of 2430??  I 
personally have a certain budget and I need to juggle things according to 
their priorities.  Example - this year do I kit the bike out with Record and 
let the pool go green because it needs a new pump, or do I buy Mirage which 
leaves me enough to buy the new pump as well? Ipso fatso as Wellington would 
say ...

I say go for it but make sure it's the 96 version, and help me in my project 
to make Japan go bust ...

    yes, Japanese component companies must die! :-)

    Re .5
    
    Are we to assume that Robin is going to purchase this new-fangled 
    technology? Whatever happened to principals? By Jove - they'll be
    shooting foxes next.
    
    Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells

>>    Are we to assume that Robin is going to purchase this new-fangled 
>>    technology? Whatever happened to principals? By Jove - they'll be
>>    shooting foxes next.
    
    Dear Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells

Fortunately they are still offering "normal" brake and gear levers, so I 
don't really have to sell my soul - I must admit the heaviness of the 1988 
Chorus is getting a bit much for my decrepit state.  The trouble is that the 
stuff does wear out, I have covered 60000 km since coming to France and 
bikes, components (and riders) take a bit of a hiding.

For those taken in by this sob-story, please send the folding money to the 
address on page 279.

Anyway, my principles are very simple - value for money, efficiency and try 
never to buy Japanese.  And that's principles by the way, I used to be a 
Principal SW specialist until I turned Consultant and became un-principled.

    >And that's principles by the way...
    
    Ah dear, another sign of advancing years, I actually thought about
    which principle I meant and decided I wanted the principal one. I used
    to think I had a memory problem, but now I've forgotten all about it.
    
    Chris

    As italian, I'm a strongly believer in Campagnolo, but on my mtb
    I've Shimano LX (28-38-48 front, 13-30 rear).
    
    Due to 3 years use (> 12K kms) I've changed almost all the cogs
    and hope to change the front-48 also, but I'm not yet found it 
    (the answer is "48 chainring only is not on selling, is too old,
    it's necessary to change all the triple and the cranck also).
    
    I'd like to contact Shimano directly !
    
    Do we have the phone/address in Italy or in Europe ?
    
    Any other suggestion is really appreciated.
    
    ciao
    roberto

    see note 2579.1
    
    Chip

re -.2

I could say that a VTT deserves to have Shimano on it, but that would be too 
unkind.  True, but unkind ...

Positive advice - Throw it away, or check if Stronglight make a lookalike 
chainring.  You MUST have some Mafia connection to get an even better price 
on Campag ...

Well, the deed is done - the Vitus is now equipped with Mirage brakes and 
transmission.  Parker Mail Order was the best value from the UK even adding 
post and packing for France.  I got the triple mechs, so I now have 30/40/50 
and 13-23 (8-speed).

I must admit to being a little disappointed at first, it was a bit noisy and 
the changes were not too special I thought.  Now after a few kilometres (more 
than 700), I have come to the conclusion that it's as Daniel Fusberti says - 
"Shimano you fit and it works, Campag needs a bit of running in, TLC and 
adjustment".  The chain length and the arm position are a bit critical and a 
blast of silicone lubricant did it a world of good.

Let's face it, it's not as nice as Athena or Chorus, but at the price it's 
fine - I am particularly impressed with the sealed bracket, at the price it's 
exceptional.  The triple front mech is brilliant, a perfect change every time 
(even a quick panic drop onto the 30 on the col de la Gineste en route for 
Marseille was no problem) and enough width so you can get 4 sprocket changes 
on the back without touching it.  The brakes are very nice, light and 
efficient.  Campag's Ergo is not a delicate system, you have to be firm and 
sure to get the right results - let's see how it lasts now.

    I recently test rode a Bianchi Eros equiped with Campy Mirage.  It
    shifted very nicely and the brakes worked well.  I think that setup is
    important because I rode an old Cannondale with the same transmission
    and almost broke my thumbs trying to get it to work.
    
    The frame on the Bianchi is real stiff and light, the best chromoly one
    that I have ridden thus far.  Put this bike on your *good value* list.
    Now where can I find one for less than $849 ?

    A friend just bought an Eros from Bicycle Alley in Worcestor, MA,
    but I forget what the "base" price was.  With Look pedals, a basic
    computer, and tax she was up just over $1k.
    K  

My Mirage (triple touring) set-up is fine, but you need to keep it oiled and 
clean for a slick change every time.  Like I said before, braking and changing 
at the same time is no big deal, but I do like to be able to change while out 
of the saddle!

BTW, I got an Italian mag last week which had a machine Mirage throughout, inc 
pedals, with Dedacci (sp?) tubing and the latest Campag Atlanta rims for 
1,150,000 lire, which I translate as less than 4000 francs and $800.  It got a 
good write up, but in the way of such magazines, they were much more 
enthusiastic over a Ti-Record equipped machine which went for just over 
5,000,000 say 17-18KFF or $3500!!