Conference noted::bicycle

    Gee Raymond, I haven't been outside since the last week of November.
    I did begin on my trainer (inside) the first week of January...
    
    Nothing really new to report (except I'm bored to death already)!
    
    You're gonna get a rash of opinion with those questions. I'm primarily
    a roadie (yes I'll admit it and have entered the 12-step program), but
    everything you read seems to point to oil or oil/elastomer combination
    (JUDY RockShox). I'm seriously thinking of a fork next season, but
    price will play a role in what I decide.
    
    Chip

    According to the rags, the 1995 models with put a new generation on
    front suspension with the introduction of cartridge systems (easier
    maintenance) and air/oil and elastomer combination systems being
    offered by Rock Shock and Answer/Mantiou(sp). 
    
    Main point of any suspension is three fold, reducing hammering on the
    body, keeping the wheels on the ground for traction, and substantially
    increasing the outflow of money in one's pockets.  At this time now, my
    suggestions to people would be if you ride where it isn't very rocky or
    demanding, but your body still is hammered, try lowering air pressure
    and/or a flexstem.  If you are riding challenging terrain or need more
    vibration reduced, try a few systems out.  Understand your willingness
    to maintain a system, some are more labor intentive than others, and
    most importantly, tune the system to your needs...right air
    pressure/elastomers. 
    
    steve 

    I second the notion that it depends on the terrain where you ride. 
    With suspension, you lose steering precision and feel (although newer
    models are better) - not to mention the weight and cost penalty.  For
    rougher terrain, however, the control, speed, and comfort are well
    worth the tradeoffs.
    
    For what it is worth, I have had a Rock Shox Mag 21 air/oil and now
    have a Girvin Vector (elastomer).  They both absorb bumps fine, with
    the edge to the elastomer on washboard. 
     
    The  Girvin handles much better, because there isn't any wheel flop due to
    independent fork slider action.  The feel is different, but it works. 
    
    Now that I have suspension, I'll never go back.

From my experience, 

	elastomers are best for small bumps,  they never have "lockout" and 
are sensitive to the smallest bumps.  However, they don't absorb the big 
hits as well and when you do hit a substantial bump there tends to be a 
lack of rebound damping (ie there can be a slight pogo effect)  This is 
hardly noticable on the new forks.  elastomers forks are also much easier 
to maintain, just unscrew a few allen bolts and they come apart.  just 
clean and lightly grease the elastomers...very few parts involved and 
maintainance doesn't involve any special tools.  BTW, I ran Manitou I's for 
3 years with no maintainance.  They always worked on bigger bumps but they 
began to stick on smaller bumps.   That's where the cleaning/regreasing 
helps.  Now they are like new. all this was done with no manual or advice. 
the maintanance took less than an hour.  Elastomers forks are for the 
masses.

	air/oil forks take the big hits better and provide a good amount of 
rebound damping (controlled by different weight/amounts of fork oil).  They 
tend to be lighter than elastomers.  They are much more complicated to 
maintain and require special knowledge and tools.  They are also more prone 
to failure.   These forks are best for really fast riding on rocky/rooty 
terrain and for people who like to "catch big air".  They tend to 
"lockout",which means the fork "locks" and doesn't react to small bumps, it 
only absorbs bigger hits.  This means that it rides like a rigid fork for 
most of the time, which contributes to the riders fatigue because the rider 
must absorb the small bumps.  

    I have front shocks on my Trek 930. I agree with what has been said
    to this point. Although I have had them (Trek Oil/Air) for about 3
    years I have never had any problem with them.
    
    The comments which I can add is they make a difference on both the
    flats and the downhills and up hills. I ride in the woods with my son
    who is 25. In comparing the ride, he is bouncing while I am closer to
    flowing. Going uphill, the shocks seem to flow over small roots and
    stones, while a hard fork, bangs into the root and wants to stop.
    
    The down side to my shocks is the additional weight. They are heavier
    than the original fork I replaced.
    
    One other comment is they compress when the front wheel is suddenly
    stopped. I learned this while riding on the road down a hill. I  over
    applied the front brake in order to make a turn. My body made the turn
    in the air, the bike sliding along the road. (Never to old to learn). 
    
                                       Bill Hill                         

    
    There are a  couple of things I've found that help Sus' forks steering
    no end.
    
   First buy another Fork brace/bake booster this stiffens things up at the
    top of the fork.
    
    Secondly, buy a suspension front hub, this tightens up the bottom of
    the fork, but even more important than a specfic front hub seems to be
    the axle. Take out your trick alloy quick release and replace it with a
    steel nut and bolt axle ( the old Shimano ones are good) are do it up
    tight!
    
    The difference this made to my old Rock Socks was quite amazing, well
    worth the extra weight.
    
    

    I've got to fall in line with the suspension converts here. I never
    rode a rigid bike, but the first bike I rode was a proflex 854 (on
    short term loan from my brother), and I now have a Fuji LX equipped
    bike with a Tange Struts elastormer fork. I've seen this fork for $140.
    Anyhow, I think dual suspension will be the way to go. Even with the
    fork the fuji still beats the kapra out of you. The biggest difference
    I see with the rear suspension is that you could climb hills on the
    Proflex without rear wheel spin. With the hardtail bike you can spin
    the rear tire.
    
    Ron

    Rockshox Judy`s are not nearly as good value for money as say the new
    Pace suspension forks. The reason why magazines rate them so much is
    because they are influenced by company`s who advertise in their mags.
    There was a problem with about 50% of the judy`s in that they leaked
    oil.
    
    Andy.

    
    Andy,
    
    You could be right. Here back in Holland most advertisements are from
    Rockshox. Also a lot of articles from reporters who have been in the
    factory. Maybe they have the best marketing departement of all.
    Do you have experiance with Pace forks ?
    
    Greating,
    
    Ray

    Ray,
    
    I have ridden on both Shox`s and Pace RC35`s (but do not own a pair due
    to a sortage of wonga (MONEY)). I know a very good bike shop over here
    which sells all the top makes in suspension ie Rockshox, Pace, Manitou,
    Marrizocchi (spellings a problem), etc. and their overall opinion is
    that the pace are superior to the Shox`s. I also like the fact that the
    pace have a grease port (wanted to say nipple there) in which you can
    squirt grease through a grease gun which I believe comes with the
    forks. On top of this I think they are more aesthetically pleasing -
    no boots which can only be a bonus but that`s perhaps a differnt
    discussion altogether.
    
    Aside all this Ray a friend of mine went to Holland on a cycling
    holiday or should a say a road cycling holiday. Now after careful
    consideration he chose Holland for one good reason and that because he
    doesn`t like hills much. Isn`t Holland flat, please correct me if I be
    mistaken but where do you go mountain biking??.
    
    :-)    Andy in a very wet and cold England.
    	

    Andy,
    
    I'm living in Nijmegen(near the German border) and we have a lot of
    nature/forrest around when I compare to the rest of Holland. This
    brings the disadvantage that a lot of city people have a picknick or
    something like that in the woods. It is against the new law to ride
    with your bike in most forrests(I don't care). I'm always gentel to
    "walkers" even though they try to get you out the woods by trowing
    dead trees etc. over the roads(they don't know that this makes cycling
    even nicer). Over here there are some hills but near the Belgian border
    there are a lot. Our Bart Brentjes managed to win the Grundig Cup
    and ended 3th at the World Championschip(got to say that he is training
    in Austria/USA etc., but his roots are here).
    When I'm in good shape I go sometimes to the Belgian Ardennes, thats a
    new world. In England you got really nature and rough terrain.
    I've seen a lot of pictures(ATB magazines) of the USA, that will be
    a hel of an adventure.
    
    The flat parts of Holland are aroud: Amsterdam/Utrecht/The
    Hague/Groningen ....(about 75 % of Holland), I'm lucky.
    How's cycling in England, and what kind of bike you're rinding on ?
    
    Greatings,
    
    Ray (you're neighbour)
    
    PS: I hope my Dutch-English is readable.........
    
    

    Ray,
    
    The bike I ride at the moment is an old Marin Bear Valley which I have
    been riding since 1991. The only original part is the frame the rest
    was upgraded to XT in about 1993.
    
    I have been looking to buy a new bike for about a month now but cannot
    decide what to get.
    
    Your bike is aluminium am I right. The only reason I ask is that I
    rode a Marin Indian Fire Trail not too long ago and found it to be a
    much more stiffer or bumpy ride than what I get on my steel bike. Do
    you find this too. I concluded that if I was to get an Aluminium bike
    then I would want front suspension on it.
    
    England is pretty good for Mountain Biking but then again I have never
    been mountain biking anywhere else, unless you count Wales or Scotland
    so my view is most likely bias. My plan is to go over to America and
    buy my new bike over there, because they are so much cheaper. Then spend
    about 3 weeks cycling around on it (not sure where yet). Hopefully I
    will be able to bring it back to England then without paying tax on it,
    if I can convince everyone that I took the bike with me in the first
    place.
    
    Your English is pretty good I can understand you fine, your spelling
    could do with a bit of work but this isn`t important to me as I am
    pretty poor at spelling myslef, AND it`s my own language. Put it this
    way you are better at English than I am at Dutch.
    
    
    Andy.

    
    I had a regular cro-moly fork and problems with my wrists to go along 
    with it. I ride here in New Hampshire and we have a nice assortment of 
    terrain to test your riding ability.
    This summer I added a manitou 3 elastomer fork and it's damping
    well outweighs the (relatively innocuous) additional weight.I haven't
    any problems or notice additional weight when pulling my wheel over
    stumps. Handling has improved, I'm no longer bottoming out and
    threatened with loosing control.
    Overall I'm very pleased with the fork.
    
    /todd
    

    Andy/Todd,
    
    My first bike was also ALU(Panasonic), so I'm not really in the
    position to judge about the difference. I have to say that sometimes
    bumpy, thats why I've opened this "conference", but I just do not want
    to loose my direct feeling with my front wheel. I guess I have to try a
    suspensed bike and make a desision . A guy I was biking with once fell
    because of his suspension.
    :> USA. In '93 I was in NY and noticed that bikes are up to 40% cheaper
    overthere. My next bike will also come from America(I think a TREK).
    Take a sticker of a local dealer(England) and put him on your "USA
    bougt bike"(maybe that will confince the customs & excise).
    Have you think of California ? There are a lot of American in this
    conference, I think guys like Chip can tell you where to go with your
    mountainbike.
    
    :> Todd, I know what you mean (wrists problem), is it gone now ?
    
    Greatings,
    
    Ray

    ref .14
    
    I also once had ideas about bringing a bike in from the US, and you
    need to be careful, Customs are not Idiots and have seen this before,
    what I have been told is that one way to try to convince them is to
    take a bike out with you, any old bike, but get the airline to give you
    some sort of proof of shipment then dump the old bike in the states
    then return with your not too new looking, new bike.
    
    This is of course Hypothetical as I would not encourage anybody to
    consider de-frauding Customs and Excise. :-)
    
    ( Anyone coming to the UK soon from the US I need a new set of
    headphones)

    Although it is still considered an "offbeat" brand, I think the Girvin
    Vector fork merits a look.  There is no front wheel flop because the
    legs can't move independently like a Rock Shox.  To me, it absorbs big
    hits as well as the air/oil forks, and is better at smaller bumps.  It
    rebounds faster, which does take some getting used to, but it works
    well.  The resulting handling is very precise.
    
    My 2cents.

    Anybody have an 800 number for Girvin and Pace dealers or mail order
    shops?  Any experience with Lawell/Control Tech (sp.) forks?
    
    I saw a Girvin Vector 1 in a local shop at a great buy, but it was
    the wrong size.  I was impress with what appeared to be the advantage
    of the "leading link design" (what the sales guy called Girvin and
    Lawell) in that it "dished out" as well as absorbing/moving up and
    down.

    
    
    In my powder magazine yesterday, I saw an add for the new Trek 
    fully suspended MTB, was it OCLV or something. Has anyone 
    seen any of these around (S.NH area or MA stores) or better yet 
    does anyone know anywhere that one could actual demo ride these.
    I'd like to be able to actually do a little climb and a short down
    hill to check the handling. They claim that the rear wheel movent
    is independant of frame movement and has no pogo-ing effect. 
    I expect the price would probably be as high as any of the top of the
    line Proflex or C-dale so I want to spend the money wisely ;-)
    
    Shaw

Goodales has a Y22 in their shop.

Can't say I cared for it very much as there was a lot of flex in the 
bottom bracket.  And I didn't care for the JUDY fork in the front.
Too much stick in the front fork (I like my Halson Inversion fork much
better).  Also the frame seemed kind of hollow sounding.  However I did 
not ride the bike so much of this is only looking at impressions.

Now as far a IRT bikes (Independent Rear Triangle) I believe that they 
are as good as suspension bike get right now.  A friend has ridden and
raced one of the original IRT bikes made by Mike Augspurger for John 
Castaliano (Think I spelled this one wrong) who holds a patent for parts
of the design and has licensed IBIS and Schwin at least but not Trek.
Anyway he loves this kind of bike and so have most people who have ridden
them.

The Y22 appears to have a good price on it, don't quite remember what it 
was as I wasn't really in the market.  If your interested in an IRT bike
you should also look at a Schwin Homegrown as I believe that the price is
comparable to the Trek, the IBIS would definately be more...

Scott

    
    Thanks Scott, 
       
           Do you know that component diffs between Y22 and the Y33 or is
          it Y30?
          I have not ridden any of the IRT bikes. Most shops I know let 
          you ride the bike around the parking lot, well that is not 
          a great way to test ride a suspension bike. I have Manitu 2
          on one bike and rock shox (quadra) on another. Since a lot of 
          my riding is fast through bumpy not necessarily too steep a
          climb, I ride fast, and with do some fast downhills riding the
          ski chair up, I thought full suspension will give me the 
          advantage. Plus a new toy is always a good thing to look forward
          to Spring/Summer activities and end of ski season blues ;-)
    
      Shaw

    According to the Bicycling buyers guide, the Y22 ($1,800)is LX/Judy XC
    and the Y33 ($3,300) is XTR/Judy SL. Both have gripshift.
    
    Steve 

    
    
    Thanks Stever the Y33 is out of my range. Y22 price wise is ok 
    if it rides well. But I was never too keen on LX, but this was 
    when there was DX and LX maybe the LX is improved. 
    What are the differences between Judy XC and SL. Since begining
    of ski season (Nov. ) I have not read up any bike mags. 
    
    Shaw

    
    Well, this past weekend I went for a real fast ride on some bumpy 
    terrain with occasional hups over stuff or little air. I tell you 
    the Rockshox quadra's suck in my opinion. The shox were so
    unpredictable, sometime it didn't feel like I even had them and
    sometime the fork would be depressed and then bounce back real jerky. 
    So yesterday I went to Gus' cycles in Hampton. Looked at what was 
    available I was not so crazy about judy's as the additional mulla and 
    weight did not make up for any noticable preformance enhancement. 
    This on a Y22.  I also tried a Kona (geesh I forgot the model) but 
    same price as the Y22 ($1800) I prefered the Kona (full suspension)
    XT componants and Marzocchi XCR front suspension. I realy liked the 
    front suspension so much that I left my bike there and asked them to 
    throw out the rockshox and give me the Marzocchi. What I liked about
    them was, they are lighter, I prefer air/oil to elastomer (this is 
    I guess a personal choice) but they do feel different. The Marzocchi's 
    cost less than Judy's but also weight less, they are speed sensative
    and best feature of all, is the six variable settings on the fork
    that you can do in seconds with no tools needed and  the various 
    settings were pretty noticable.  I can hardly wait to pick the 
    bike up and head for the mountains again.  I am also seriously 
    considering the Kona, funny I never even considered Kona before
    and I only took it out to check the front suspension but loved the 
    feel of the bike. 
    
    Shaw

    
    Glad you liked the XCR's but as a Judy owner who has tried both and
    bought the Rocks I'll put my side of the story :-)
    
    I rode the XCR's on a Kona and the Judy's were on a Stuntjumper, and
    while I felt both gave about the same ammount of bump absorbsion, I felt the
    Judy were much the stiffer Fork. This gave much more precise steering
    and no wheel to brake rub in tight corners. You can also adjust the pre
    load on the Judys on the move, and its simple to change the bumpers to
    get a different "feel".
    
    Anyway I bought the Judys XC and love em! I will also say that I'm
    230lb ( all muscle of course ) and lighter riders may not have the
    flexing problems with the Marzocchi's that i had.

    
  -1:  Thanks for the input on Judy's, well I weight 155lbs. So as you 
       mentioned I guess that is also a factor. What was important to me
       was the savings both in money and more important weight. 
       I also did not get a chance to hammer down on these suspensions yet. 
       I did get a chance to take them on a bumpy trail and jump off a 
       couple of rocks down to about two or so feet. Unfortunately I won't
       get any first hand experience on a good all around climb/downhill
       ride until weekend after next. 
       Like you said all the readups that I've done on these forks also 
       had a preference for judy's for heavier riders, they also look 
       way cool, especially the new ones with the composite look finish. 
    
     Shaw