Conference noted::bicycle

>>    How did the cyclist respond?  He spent ~ $1500 to have a special gun and
>>    holster made for his lightweight KESTREL frame componentrized with the
>>    lightest Campy offering.
    
    Hands up all those who think that America is a country gone mad...
    
    I think that the problems vary from country to country. British drivers
    are amongst the most aggressive in the world. Match this with cyclists
    being a minority and you are always going to get an impatience. This is
    made worse by the fact that no British road was ever designed to be
    used to overtake and any chance of logical argument from either side is
    out the window. They get annoyed that they are held up by us, we get
    annoyed when they cut us up because they can't get passed.
    
    I think the truth is somewhere in between. Yes, there are *some*
    selfish riders who hog the road, but if there was more consideration
    from UK drivers then they probably wouldn't feel the need to.
    
    This is always a difficult situation to get out of. The real answer is
    probably to build cycle lanes and get us off the roads. That will give
    us two advantages:-
    
    	1. We will be out of their way and so the tension will be released
    between us.
    
    	2. More people will feel safe to come out on bikes. That means that
    more motorists will become cyclists as well. That gives us more people
    who can see an argument from both sides and behave in an unbiased way.
    
    	But, under our Government's present transport policy, we've got
    more chance of Chip raiding the $5 and under bin for his bike stuff
    than us getting cycle lanes.
    
    Graham.
           

     I have to agree with Graham (except for the $5 bin thing) -- :-)
    
     It's not a black and white situation. There are idiots on both
    sides and I'll betb there are idiot cyclists who are idiot motor-
    ists...
    
     It's not just idiotry. Education (or lack of) plays a role in
    what goes on out there as well. I've encountered some of the
    most courteous motorists you'd ever want to meet. I've encountered
    and enagaged total morons. I got yelled at for standing on the side of
    the road one time! 
    
     Chip

Can't let this one go by!  I hope it gets a more intelligent hearing than the 
recent notes in EF93.

Cycle lanes?  Cycle paths?
I don't think so - the general idea of the transport providers is to lay down 
cycle paths at the side of the A1 and force the cyclists onto there.  I don't 
want to be told where to ride, I don't want to ride next to a major road 
either.  Either way, a policy like this would lead first to the death of 
racing and secondly to a total ban on cycling.

UK roads? UK motorists?
The roads down here on the Cote are designed worse than in the UK, they are 
narrower and in worse condition.  The motorists are reckoned to be the most 
impatient in Europe except when compared with the Italians.  Why is it 
therefore I have experienced more respect and less danger in the 4 years here 
than in the previous 4 years in the UK?  In France, people who take sport 
seriously are treated with a certain amount of respect.  The contrast in the 
UK is that a large %age  of motorists leave their brains at home when they 
drive and regard bikies as 2nd-class citizens who cannot afford the latest 
3,5 litre whizz-bang special.

The solution?
There is no solution.  People are made in a certain way, and react in a 
certain way.  It was proved recently that the average motorist would make 
economies elsewhere to continue to run his car even if fuel costs were raised 
by a factor of 10.  All I know is that if I have to come back to the UK, I 
will most likely pack up cycling.

In Texas the law says that bikes are considered vehicles and as such, have
the same rights and responsibilities as motor vehicles, with a few exceptions.
One of those is "ride as close to the shoulder of the road as practical."
It then goes on to say that you may do whatever you need to do to avoid
parked cars, pothole, debris on the road, etc.  I try very hard to follow the
law...However, I do a lot of riding on 4 lane divided highways where the
speed limit is 40 - 50 MPH.  My rule of thumb is...When the lane to the left of
me is clear and 3 cars in a row pass me only inches away from my handlebars,
I move to the left such that I take 1/3 of the right hand lane and stay there
for a few minutes.

There appears to be some confusion as to whether it is legal or not for
a bicyclist to ride on the shoulder of the road in Texas.  I read in the
newspaper a legislator had introduced a bill to allow bicyclists to legally
ride on the shoulder of the road in Texas.  Shortly thereafter, the president
of the cycling club I belong to, mentioned that the organizers of a rally last
year had gotten complaints from a concrete company that they had several loads
of cement come close to hardening when riders refused to ride on the shoulder
so that the concrete trucks could pass.  The president then urged us to ride
on the shoulder if need be to allow traffic to pass.  Until I hear otherwise,
I'm going to assume that it is illegal for me to ride on the shoulder.

Bob

> I'm going to assume that it is illegal for me to ride on the shoulder.

Let me get this straight. The shoulder is a paved part of the road to the
right of the right-most lane (correct?) and as such, cars and lorries don't
use it and it's a safe area to cycle in. Are you seriously telling me that 
it's illegal for a cyclist to use the shoulder? And if so, would you 
genuinely stand a chance of being hauled in by a cop for using it?


Rod

> I'm going to assume that it is illegal for me to ride on the shoulder.


In Colorado, it's not illegal. In fact, if memory serves me, the law states
that cyclists are to use the shoulder if it's there (and safe to ride on).
On the other hand, cyclist may not ride two or more abreast, unless they
can do so safely on the shoulder.  But, this happens all the time here
in Colorado Springs.

I always signal for turns.  I always stop at red lights (mind you, on early
Saturday mornings, I will go through a red light after waiting a minute or
two.  (An aluminum frame is hard for those in-the-road sensors to detect.)

I understand what the author of .0 is saying, to a certain extent.  Nothing
frosts me more than to have a cyclist come up to a red light that I'm stopped
at (either in my car or on my bike), take a quick look, and then go right 
across.  In traffic, I'll also take my place in a line of cars waiting at
a light, rather than rolling up to the intersection.

But, there are a lot of motorists out there who are just cyclist-unfriendly.
I've met my share, mostly those who'll pull right out in front of me, even
though we've made eye contact with each other.  

Riding in traffic can be scary.  Riding along p*ssed off motorists is scarier
still.

-Patrick

re: .6, Yep.  It is also explicitly states that it is legal for cyclists to
ride 2 abreast, but I avoid doing that as it tends to really p*ss motorists
off.

I still haven't figured out if it is legal for a car to pass a cyclist without
completely vacating the lane.

Bob

    I try to let common sense prevail.  It is probably illegal for
    a bicycle to operate on a paved shoulder unless it is is marked
    "bike lane" but I've never seen that enforced.  I had one COP
    (CHIEF OF POLICE) tell me that a bicycle must be as far to the
    right as possble at all times.  I replied with "Let me introduce
    myself" and then cited several reasons why that was unsafe and
    just a bad idea as well as an incorrect citation of the law.
    
    He returned to directing traffic.
    
    ed

I cycle in London every day and constantly see cyclists go through red lights,
ride up one way steets the wrong way and just ignore pedestrians on zebra
crossings etc. Although I see idiots of the four wheel variety I am sure these
cyclist don't make life easy for the rest.
Any body  else have problems with people opening car doors and jumping off the
bus on top of you. 


	Cheers


	 Dave

         The buses here in the US aren't the two decker type that you have
    in England so it is hard for someone to jump off on onto a cyclist,
    but the bus drivers sometimes don't realize that they pass too close to
    cyclist.
         I watch parked cars carefully when I am passing them, normally I 
    see people sitting in them from a distance and can regulate the 
    situation as I pass ( But I never ride in a city with as much traffic
    as London so what works here may not work in London).
         On irresponsible cyclist.  Such people don't seem to realize or
    care about the dangers that they create for other cyclist.  I am
    sure that innocent and safe riding cyclist have been hurt or killed by
    motorist who react wildly to a bad encounter with a irresponsible
    bicycle rider.
    
     AS 

    
    
    Re. Bad Publicity Cyclists
    
    	When the editor of Cycling Weekly admits in his editorial that he
    jumps red lights, is it any wonder we get little sympathy?
    
    Graham.

I really HATE to see people go through red lights. It sometimes feels funny to
be sitting on a bike in a line of cars, six or eight back, waiting for the
light to change, but I wouldn't even think of going through the light. 
						-- Tom

    IMHO, non-intelligent, timed red lights that stop a string of cars
    for no absolutely no cross traffic whatsoever are a waste of time
    and energy.  I'll ride thru those, but only after stopping and
    carefully checking each way before proceeding thru the intersection.   
    

    One thing that I do in a busy intersection when the cars are not moving
    that fast is to move right in with the traffic. I feel safer there and
    feel the cars can see me better. 
    
    I am guilty of going through some red lights but not when the road is
    busy and I almost always pull up to the front. I don't think people
    mind as much as when motorcycles do it because they just cut back into 
    traffic. I know as a car driver a bicycle pulling up to the front never
    bothered me but a motorcycle doing the same always P***ed me off a bit.
    
    The thing about bicycles that drives me crazy is when they ride side by
    side, especially on a busy street. I always try to put myself in the
    place of the bigger guy (Car) and give them as much room as I can while
    still standing my own ground for safety.
    
    Alan 

    How about stop signs?  Do you all come to a complete stop, release from
    your pedal, put your foot down, clip back in and go?  I really have a
    hard time doing this on deserted streets.  They are so tempting to blow
    through.  Tickets have been issued around here to cyclists not
    following this procedure.
    
    Don

Greetings all,

I've got an opinion about this! Its somewhat convoluted so as Ross P. would
say...Pay Attention.

1. Whenever there is anykind of confrontation with a car as far as I'm
concerned the car always wins. I have no/0/nada/nyet shame. They have all
the physics on their side and we have nothing but lycra and way too expensive 
gloves.

2. Around this neck of the woods there are alot of excellant state roads
with really wide shoulders. I noticed when being up in Mass there were no
wheres near as many roads with wide shoulders like here. 

3. I agree with the opions of the base note. As one who can (and have
by-the-way) offend just about anyone on any given day I can believe either
side in disputes. However being a cyclist I've noticed propensity twords 
us thinking we are on the side of the angels. We may or may not be but in
any confrontation we are going to loose.

Fred

Re red lights:  OK, I'm guilty, I do this pretty regularly, *if* it's
safe. And there are several situations where it is. In front of the railway
station in Geneva, on my cycle route home, there are a pair of red lights
about 50m apart that go on and off roughly together. The first light doesn't
control any cross traffic and I normally go through this one and position
myself at the next (which does) so that I have a head start when the lights
change and the loonies behind me put their foot down. Do *you* like
wobbling around trying to get your foot in the pedal in the middle of the
charge of the light brigade?


Rod

Here on the Cote, cyclists go through many red lights by default.  However, 
before anyone jumps on me, I should point out that it's really not unsafe;  

Take the Bord de Mer - if you are going east with the sea on your right, you 
come to lots of traffic lights for traffic entering from the left to join the 
eastward flow.  On a bike, there is no point in stopping, and the majority of 
motorists understand and expect this behaviour - of course you join as far 
over to the right as you can, you don't go straight into the middle lane!  

However, jumping the red lights at the bottom of Boulevard Carnot in Cannes 
is pure stupidity and any bikie doing it should be taken to the cleaners.

There was a letter to one of the Irish newspapers a couple of months ago
defending cyclists who go through red lights (and the same argument applies to 
cycling up one way streets the wrong way). 

It claimed that while this is legally wrong, it is morally right, since these 
traffic lights were installed for the benefit of motorised traffic. Without 
motorised vehicles, there would be no need for traffic lights in the first place.

Perhaps a Luddite view, but you can see a point, especially when you
consider that: 
o when there are a series of traffic lights in a row, the timing is design to
  ease the flow of motorised vehicles, not pushbikes.

o the sensors on some lights which make them turn green when traffic approaches
  probably doesn't detect bicycles.

o regardless of weather conditions, a motorist is warm and comfortable while
  sitting at a light waiting, and does not have to expend any energy moving off
  again. The same hardly applies to cyclists!

o To turn left (in Europe, or right in the US) on a red light is normally
  perfectly safe for a bicycle, given it's dimensions and cornering ability. The
  same is not true of a car. (In the US one can usually turn right on a red 
  light. The equivalent doesn't apply in Europe.)

When it's raining and the wind is blowing in your face (as it invariably is on my 
route home in Galway), and I've got some momentum, I have no intention of 
stopping for a red light if the road is clear. Other times, I tend to stop and 
size up the situation.

Patrick

     Me? Red lights? Stop signs? I'm lilly white here... Aren't these
    merely suggestions anyway?
    
     No one's mentioned speeding. Those tractor trailers hate it when I
    blow by them (in the passing lane) when they're climbing in a 45mph
    section. And yes, I always make sure that I have a safe passing
    distance ahead.......... :-)
    
     And when police are in pursuit, I never let them get close enough
    to read the Ser.# on my frame.
    
       Chip

RE: Safely going through red lights

Let's say that under some circumstances it is judged safe to go through a red
light on a bike. Some questions to ponder:

 - Are there also similar circumstances when it would be safe to go through a
   red light in a car or truck?
 - If there are, do you?
 - If there are but you don't, why not?

I'm not an angel, and I don't mean to pretend I am. I don't clip out at empty
intersections with stop signs; I do what I often do in a car: slow to 2-4 MPH
while continuing to assess the traffic, and then resume travel if it's clear
(stopping if it's not). I don't agree with routinely going through lights and
signs, especially at cruising speed, just because it's "safe" to the rider.

I ride with a couple of cycling groups, and standard practice is to go through
stop signs at pretty much normal speed when it's clear. I really feel
uncomforable doing this, but the conformist in me hasn't kept me from making a
fuss about it. Maybe this consciousness-raising excersise will make me do it.
						-- Tom

    " - Are there also similar circumstances when it would be safe to go through a
   red light in a car or truck?"
    
    yes, if the light is broken, it is also acceptable to most gendarmes.
    Also I regularly do it at 2-4 AM for lights that just turn green every
    2 or 3 minutes.  Nowadays more and more lights are going automatic so
    that is less likely, but with a bike automatic lights seldom work so
    it is more likely that I'll have to run them in deserted areas.
    
    ed
      

RE: <<< Note 2551.24 by NOVA::FISHER "DEC Rdb/Dinosaur" >>>

>    Also I regularly do it at 2-4 AM for lights that just turn green every
>    2 or 3 minutes.  Nowadays more and more lights are going automatic so
>    that is less likely, but with a bike automatic lights seldom work so
>    it is more likely that I'll have to run them in deserted areas.

Boy, you're hard-code to be riding between 2-4 AM!
						-- Tom

    
    re .1 I think you don't know the Austrians...
    
    re .2 I agree
    
    re .3 I don't agree
    In Austria they built a lot of Cycle-lanes in the last years and
    because of that, there are a lot of cyclers more, because this ways are 
    much more secure. Also this ways are not always near the road, so that
    you have a better chance for "better" air.
    
    re .21 I hope you are not speeking about Europe meaning GB. Only in 
    GB (and Malta) you drive on the left. In the rest of Europe you drive
    on the right. Anyway as I know in most of the European countries it's 
    not allowed to turn to the right on red signs.
    
    -  The problem of relationsship between motorists and cyclers is, I
    think, normal and a human defect. 
    It's the old problem between a "strong" and a "weak" and normally its 
    better for the weak to take care for himself.
    As mentioned above there are built a lot of cycle-lanes in Austria to 
    separate this parties whereever possible. The problem here is now, that 
    a lot of this cyclelanes are partly also used for pedestrians and then
    you have the same problem, but the cyclist in the strong and the
    pedestrians in the weak position.( a year ago we had several seriously
    hurted pedestrians and one died (!) because of a cyclist.)
    To lower the verb "normal problem" mentioned above: What I observe,
    I think that there are a low percentage of people with such a
    human-defekt, but these guys you get your attention to them because of
    their behaviour, all others you won't recognize. And it's the human
    itself because this people behave bad, whether they are sitting in a
    car or on a byke or going by foot. They change their mindset depending
    what they are doing. They behave bad always against the weak but are
    claiming about the strong......
    
    Otto
    

    
    I am a member of the "go through red lights when it's safe" community.
    As Robin says, there are some junctions where it is usually safe to
    do so, and other places where you'd have to be a nutter to try it.
    
    I was driving back into Reading last night, and there was a bloke on a
    racing bike with tri-bars, riding straight into a strong headwind in
    his highest gear, and going through every red traffic light like it
    wasn't there. He was also wearing DM boots, I noticed. Strange
    combination. However, I guess this is the sort of behaviour that really
    winds car drivers up.
    
    Trevor

RE: <<< Note 2551.27 by KRAKAR::WARWICK "Can't you just... ?" >>>

>    However, I guess this is the sort of behaviour that really
>    winds car drivers up.

Winds me up too. Now in all seriousness, do you suppose the cyclist judged that
passage through the red lights was safe? Did it seem safe to you? Does it
matter how fast he went through the intersection? In other words, if it's OK to
go through at 5 MPH after looking and finding it safe, isn't it OK to go
through at 25 MPH after looking and finding it safe?

What's the difference between what he did, and what noters are saying they do?
						-- Tom

    We defend our use of the roads by saying "we have the same rights
    as automobiles".  (I've heard many of my fellow cyclists shout this
    at motorists who have first shouted something derogatory at them).
    I don't think I should then turn around and say "but I don't have
    to follow the same laws as automobiles".

    If a motorist is stopped at a red light, I will also stop at that
    light.  I don't want to contribute to the growing animosity between
    cyclists & motorists by breaking the law in front of him.

    After saying that, though, I have to admit that I feel no qualms
    about going through red lights when nobody in a car is going to
    see me.  There are quite a few roads around here (out east
    of the city) where this is often the case.

    And I sure don't clip-out at stop signs when it's not necessary, even
    if there are cars around.  But I do at least do the equivalent of
    a motorist's "rolling stop" -- slow down while going through it.

    - Diane

Very interesting note here.  Too bad only cyclist are the likely readers.

My opinion is if it is safe, ie not oncoming traffic it is o.k. to run the 
red lights.  

But it is not safe ever to move up on traffic stopped at a light. A rider in 
our club was hit by a car turning left from the on comming traffic. 
Turns out that he was at fault and luckly he didn't get a ticket, the driver was
8 months into a very trying pregnancy and if anything went wrong he could of been
sued for some big $$$$.  Yes this happened in the US and the rules is "when ever
possible sue".

As to how close to ride to the right side of the road, as close as you safely can
seems to be the rule.  Now what is safe, my experience has been if I ride right
on the white line I should expect cars to come very close since I have given them
enough room to get by without moving left into on comming traffic.  If I ride 
about one foot left of the white line the motorist seem to give me more room 
and notice that I am there.  If I am ever on a multilane road I will always no 
matter what ride in the right wheel lane of the slow lane.  This is the best 
place to be, cars notice you more and are more aware of passing distance required.

As to the motorist that yells and tries to run you off the road.  They will always
exist and nothing that a cyclist can do will change that.

Now flip the coin and become the motorist.  Try passing somebody on a bike that
isn't riding a straight line, weaving all the time, add a hill and a bit of
traffic and a pinch of late for a meeting.  What to you have, major conflict.
It is hard to figure out what the biker is doing and when will it be safe to pass.
I even get anoid by these cyclist since a few bad apples can ruin it for the 
bunch.

Remember even if the cyclist isn't at fault the car will always win.  As noted
before the physics are against the cyclist.

Oh well my $.02

Tom

    
    
    I am for self preservation. If I (on a bike) get in an accident with
    a car, I lose (PERIOD). I believe that most cyclists are MORE AWARE
    of what is happening at a traffic light/stop sign, and that it is not 
    necessary to clip out and wait for the traffic light to change before
    going if the intersection is truly clear. Further, (and I don't know about
    the rest of you) I can come to a complete momentary stop at an
    intersection without clipping out. If the intersection is blind ....
    such that I cannot really see what's happening until I get right up 
    to the stop sign/light... I'll always do a momentary stop. If the 
    intersection is open and I can assess the situation well ahead of time, 
    I won't hesitate to cruise through.  
    
    
    The difference between a motorist and a bicycle "slowing without a 
    complete stop" is a matter of weight. This weight difference ,
    2000+ lbs., makes a stupid/lax motorist deadly, even at 5 mph. 
    You may argue that "in the eyes of the law" they are equal (and you 
    are correct). In reality, though, a bicycle is FAR, FAR less a threat 
    to any other vehicle on the road and than a car. If this difference is 
    not apparent to you, may I suggest that you 1) step in front a 
    bicycle coasting downhill at 3mph and then 2) stand in front of a 
    Ford F150 or a loaded cement mixer coasting downhill at 3mph.  
    
    

    Well, I was gonna stay out of this but...
    
    Here in Minnesota we have an extra problem.  The city fathers, in their
    infinite wisdom have put a series of bike paths around Minneapolis, and
    some in St. Paul.  BUT, then they put a 10 mph (yeah 10 mph) speed
    limit on the paths, which causes them to be infested with walkers,
    joggers, runners, and roller bladers.  Most cyclists wind up in the
    street which has no shoulders because there is this NICE bikepath right
    along the parkway!  So, we're guaranteed to hold up traffic somewhat,
    which causes some heated commentary on both sides as drivers scream
    about the *&$%$^ riders ignoring the bikepath and the riders yelling
    back that the speed limit on the bikepath forces us into the street!
    Fortunately, many of the bike routes are away from the city and provide
    a great place to go miles without worrying about traffic.
    
    As far as traffic lights - I wait.  If there are cars at a light I"ll
    pull up on the right to the front - mostly because I can't accellerate
    fast enough to keep up with the traffic if I'm back in the line.  This
    way they know I'm there and I've never had a problem with anyone in a
    car being angry (that I know of).  If there is no traffic either
    direction at a red light I'll STILL usually stop and check things out
    before I go through, and even then I'll usually just wait for it to
    turn green - it gives me a chance to catch my breath and get my pulse
    back down to a reasonable rate as I sit there gasping.
    
    At 4-way stops I slow down and check both ways but if noone is coming I
    will cruise through them.  If there are cars I will slow and stop
    without clicking out and hope I time things so I can go in my turn
    without having to put a foot down.
    
    I've seen many riders here in MN run red lights and blow through stop
    signs without regard to waiting cars.  I've seen cars have to brake
    when they had the green light to avoid some idiot running the red light
    on a bike.  It concerns me because I know the drivers are cursing the
    inconsiderate bike riders and with my luck they'll turn me into road
    pizza at some later time!  
    
    Last year a whole group of AYH riders on a ride happily rolled through
    several stop signs.  Unfortunately, they did it with a local cop behind
    them.  He pulled the entire group over and started writing citations! 
    I think they got away with warning citations but I personally think
    the whole group should have gotten to pay a fine!
    
    Then, of course, (with no disrespect intended) theres the totally
    brain-dead, moronic, redneck, in a truck higher than his IQ that
    figures that he by damn is in a CAR and you #$%^& shouldn't be out here
    anyhow and he isn't moving over an INCH to get by you as you try to
    scrape between bubba's monster mudder tire and the parked car on your
    right!  

    
    
    I must say that I'm an angelic white at traffic lights. I don't go
    through red lights because I've got the most unbelievably sensitive
    guilty concience.
    
    Having said that, I'm probably lucky in that I stay in a New Town (it
    was started in 1948 from scratch) where the policy is to use
    roundabouts instead of lights. As a result, I'm probably either less
    confident at traffic lights than the majority or I feel that the lights
    are there becuase it's a really bad junction, so my deeds probably have
    no significance to the discussion...
    
    Graham.

This is an interesting note, but one thing is bugging me - could someone
please turn that "Villians" into "Villains"? I assume that's the intended
word anyway.


Rod

    With reference to Cycling in Major Cities ie. London, I used to cycle
    to work in London and my worst problems were Taxi's that are taking a
    short cut through side streets and when they meet the main road again,
    as I am cycling along it, they stick the nose of their taxi out into
    the flowing traffic, to push in, just as I am coming up the inside,
    because traffic always went slower than me, I end up having to either
    hit the brakes hard or swerve into the traffic...Not Fun!
    
    Some other good tricks are buses pulling into bus-stops as you are
    approaching them and Taxi's doing a u-turn when you are going down the
    offside to avoid the taxi's pulling out of side roads on the nearside.

Re .26
>    re .21 I hope you are not speeking about Europe meaning GB. Only in 
>    GB (and Malta) you drive on the left.

And Ireland! (Anyhow, full points for spotting my deliberate mistake ;-) 

re.32
Here in Galway they built a bunch of new approach roads for the town a couple of
years ago. In their enlightenment, they decided to put cycle paths (cue
someone to make the psycho path pun) on them. 

Unfortunately, in their ignorance, they failed to flatten the bumps in the 
tarmac surface, failed to put in ramps from the road to the path, so (at least 
on a road bike) you have to dismount and lift your trusty steed up 3 inches of 
kerb, and failed to put in any provision for the fact that all these approach 
roads (and hence cycle paths) are joined by roundabouts, so that cyclists have 
to wait for a break in the traffic entering/exiting the roundabout to make a 
quick dash across to the cycle path on the other side.

And it's any wonder that cars meep beep at cyclists on the road?

At least we don't have roller bladers here (well, only one or two anyway). I was 
walking along the Charles river in Boston last summer and was almost run over by
a guy practising his skiing technique with roller blades and two long poles, 
which were flailing around wildly!

Patrick

    
> Winds me up too. Now in all seriousness, do you suppose the cyclist judged that
> passage through the red lights was safe? Did it seem safe to you? Does it
> matter how fast he went through the intersection? In other words, if it's OK to
> go through at 5 MPH after looking and finding it safe, isn't it OK to go
> through at 25 MPH after looking and finding it safe?
    
    Actually, he wasn't going very fast. The thing I felt was dangerous was
    that he was going across while the lights were set to allow traffic to
    cross the main road, and his own path. 
    
    My own feeling is that non-cyclists may find this more annoying than
    the other common case, where the cyclist goes through a red light, but
    then merges into traffic that is coming in from the right (or left for
    non-UK/EIRE/AUS etc), and thus doesn't have to actually cross the
    current "right of way". I only ever consider jumping the lights at this
    type of junction, for both the safety and perceived-potential-annoyance
    reasons.
    
    I think the whole argument is similar to speeding in cars. What we're
    all trying to do is "get there faster". In this country, 95% of drivers
    regularly break the speed limits, which are there for safety reasons.
    Most cyclists don't have this option open to them, but going to the
    front of traffic queues (not illegal), and the option to risk jumping
    lights are available.
    
    
    Trevor

    re .37                                                 
    
         I never "jump" red lights and always sit in the traffic position
    that my bike arrives at, ie, I never move to the front of the traffic
    queue.  I have noticed the reaction of motorists and I have seen that
    they are more respectful and considerate when I follow the rules that
    they follow in regards to sitting at a red light.
         Most of the intersections which I come to are ones that I encounter
    frequently so I understand the traffic flow through them very well.
    Whenever I come to a strange intersection I enter a very high state of
    awareness.
         It seems that sometimes stopping to think will save us some grief.
    Last night I did something that was very stupid in that I started a
    40 mile ride after 6 pm knowing that it would be getting dark around
    7:45 - 8:00 pm.  Fortunately I completed the ride at around 8 and had
    worn a bright colored shirt but as I approached home I felt and thought
    about how stupid I had been to leave without my flashing warning light.
    Fortunately every motorists approaching me from behind and ahead saw me
    and reacted well.
         I have noticed a lot of new people riding bikes on the course that
    I use and I hope that they are doing so because they observed cyclists
    who were riding properly and having fun.
    
      AS