Conference noted::bicycle

No comments from anyone? I'd hate to think that you thought this was the
last word on Ergo or STI...


Rod

     I would agree with your assessment. I have the Campy Record stuff.
    
     One point, the stuff is not must equipment unless you're in a sprint
    finish and need to get into a higher gear. That piece of technology
    can actually win or lose a race.
    
     Chip 

Indexed shifting IS NOT an essential, whereas a Brookes saddle most 
definitely is......

I cannot let the most excellent and comprehensive report pass without 
querying the front changer comments - do you mean it takes 2 or 3 bites to 
change rings rather than 1 smooth movement?  I can't imagine this.  I'm also 
interested to see you also have consigned the Campag front to the spares box 
in favour of a SunTour, my feelings exactly despite the anti-Japanese in me. 
The only one I have found to be as good is the Sachs.  When you need to 
bridge 32/40/50, the Campag always is a bit imprecise on the change-down to 
the innermost ring - I think they just need a longer cage to work 
effectively.

Yes, it takes me two swipes for a front change to a higher gear. Not ideal,
and quite probably unnecessary with the right equipment. 

The reason I left the Campag front change in the spares box is that I
assumed, possibly wrongly, that it can't handle a triple. Perhaps I need
to experiment with that. And perhaps if I bought a Campag front changer
that can handle a triple it would match better with the Ergo shifter and
a single stroke would suffice to make a front change. I'd welcome any
comments on this.


Rod

    I had been thinking of a 1+1 setup using the Ergo for the rear changer 
    and a trad changer for the front.  It would look ugly but it might be
    an interesting compromise...
    
    Comments ?

    > Comments ?
    
    If the levers are indeed symmetrical, and you knew anyone left-handed,
    you could sell them the left-lever cheap so they too could go Ergo.

     I thought I read somewhere that one of the plus' for the Campy stuff
    was that it would handle triples and Shimano would not...
    
     Anyway, front changers are set up that way (index - graduations) so
    that you can adjust for chain rub. If it were one clean sweep, you'd
    have to live with rub in the extreme gears or (for the more torqued
    personalities) while you're hammering and experiencing that incredible
    frame flex :-) !!!!!
    
      Chip

    
>     I had been thinking of a 1+1 setup using the Ergo for the rear changer 
>     and a trad changer for the front.  It would look ugly but it might be
>     an interesting compromise...
    
    You mean only use one Ergo lever ? If so, it might feel a bit strange,
    depending on how the shape of the hood compares to the standard brake
    levers. Perhaps you mean to use both Ergo levers, but just not connect
    up gear bit of the left hand one ?
    

    
>     I had been thinking of a 1+1 setup using the Ergo for the rear changer 
>     and a trad changer for the front.  It would look ugly but it might be
>     an interesting compromise...
    
      For me, one very important aspect of down-tube shifting is the 
      one-handed double-shift, in particular the changes between the 42-15
      to the 53-17.   (Straight block users, or those not concerned with
      chain deflection, need read no farther).  It seems that Ergo and its
      ilk offer an evolutionary improvement (hands stay on the bars) but
      using the 1+1 setup, this shift could only be accomplished with
      the left hand on the downtube shifter, while
      simultaneously using the right hand thumb on the Ergothumb-gizmo.  
      This seems de-evolutionary and perhaps de-angerous.

re the one-handed change....

Quite so, I have always changed "through the frame", even when not needing a 
"double change ie: front and rear almost simultaneously".  I rarely use the 
left hand to operate the DT front changer lever, it's normally the right hand 
thumb that does the work.  The only time this gives me problems is when the 
frame number gets in the way - the French sportif ones normally can be fixed 
a little way back thanks to the fiendish plastic clips they use.

Rod_W's solution is back to the original Campag bar-end days, when most 
people used the bar-end for the back and a conventional lever for the front, 
apart from notable Continentals like Miguel Poblet and Rik van Looy, but 
that's another story......

As for the Campag front and triples - I still say the normal Chorus/Veloce 
whatever will not handle the small innermost rings, the cage is just not 
designed that way.  Going to a (perish the thought) VTT version may be the 
answer, but they also seem to require more clearance between the crank and 
the outside ring (see earlier note on triples).

Oh dear, has Technology passed me by yet again????

>    I had been thinking of a 1+1 setup using the Ergo for the rear changer 
>    and a trad changer for the front. 

I don't think I could live with this personally, too inelegant. We love our
bikes after all, they've got to look good as well as feel good.

The front change isn't *that* bad, and anyway it's only a pain changing to a 
larger ring, changing to a smaller ring is fine. And as Chip says, you can
adjust for chain rub on the fly very easily.


Rod

    I don't like the multi click aspect of the Ergos and am very
    happy with my STI's.  Yes they don't shift and triple, but how
    often do I use a triple?  I'm trying command controls on my touring
    bike.
    
    ed

>    I had been thinking of a 1+1 setup using the Ergo for the rear changer 
>    and a trad changer for the front.

well, it worked for andy hamptsen with his rear only STI at l'alp d'huez.

As a long time read only member of this conference I'd like to express my
thanks to Rod.  It was on the basis of the review penned in .1 that I
decided to purchase the Veloce Groupset.  I was initially very disappointed
having been used to Shimano's great indexing system.

After twiddling the barrel adjuster, on many occasions, (as some of my
training partners will testify :-( ) and eventually getting the chain
length correct I ended up with a groupset that is nothing short of brilliant.

To be able to change gears when out of the saddle or without having to reach 
for the down tube is fantastic.  It has had an unfortunate side effect in so
far as I am unable to go out on my winter bike which has conventional shifters,
:-( I think that I'll just have to put up with that.

Once again Rod many thanks for a great review and some excellent
recommendations.


Regards,
Andy.

    
    A comment from Allan Peiper in his roadtest of a GB-MG team bike with
    Campy Ergo said that he preferred the Shimano version. He believes that
    the benefit to jump straight from a 21 to a 12 is of no use because you
    legs can't change speed that fast and that he found the cabling route
    of the Campy system uncomfortable when riding on the brake hoods. Any
    comments?
    
    Graham.

     I fear we're treading into the "debate zone"... I like my CAMPY
     stuff (I did have personal experience with Dura Ace too).
    
     I agree with Graham's point. If you need this option, you're
     not riding correctly. BTW, the cable system doesn't bother me
     at all... I'm not sure where the "hoods" thing comes from, but
     the bar tops have the bulge from the cable. I actually like it
     because it improves my grip on the bar.
    
     One thing I don't like about Shimano is the tentacle appearance
     of multiple cables spinging out. The, of course, there's the
     finish work... IMHO -- No contest!

>     I fear we're treading into the "debate zone"... I like my CAMPY
>     stuff (I did have personal experience with Dura Ace too).
 
    Why fear? Debatings what we do best in here...  :*)  I'm not looking for
    a debate, it's just that Peiper is the first person that I've heard
    state a preference for STI over Ergo. Once this leg injury clears up, I
    was going to evaluate what my objectives would be for next year. If
    RRing figures at all, then I'd consider moving to STI/Ergo. Using
    Shimano just now, STI may mean less money...
       
>     I'm not sure where the "hoods" thing comes from, but the bar tops have
>     the bulge from the cable. I actually like it because it improves my grip
>     on the bar.
  
    I think that it must be the point where the cable comes out of the
    hood. I would imagine that the soft flesh at the palm of the hand would
    have it digging in, which could be tiring after some time. I ride on
    the hoods a lot, and this would be a consideration for me. 
      
>     One thing I don't like about Shimano is the tentacle appearance
>     of multiple cables spinging out. The, of course, there's the
>     finish work... IMHO -- No contest!
    
    I agree about looks. We spent decades getting aero levers, and 5 years
    later Shimano have got cables all over the shop again...
    
    Graham.

Veloce seemed to offer a better proposition for me as I have quite small hands 
(unlike the rest of my over-weight self :-)) and it seemed to me that it was much
easier to change gears with the Ergolever system as STI.

I don't like the STI tentacles either.

Regards,
Andy.

     I ride the hoods a lot myself (in fact, enough to wear a set out a
    year)... Of course, I have manly hands :-)
    

    hey whats all this about not needing 23-12 jumps.
    
    There is a certain noise, well known and dearly beloved of all alpine
    cyclo-tourists which is the rattle-rattle-clunk-thump as you change
    from 32x23 to 48x13 as you breast the top of a 10% col.
    
    Mind you in this sort of case you don't need the speed of change....

>    hey whats all this about not needing 23-12 jumps.
    
>    There is a certain noise, well known and dearly beloved of all alpine
>    cyclo-tourists which is the rattle-rattle-clunk-thump as you change
>    from 32x23 to 48x13 as you breast the top of a 10% col.
    
    To me, if you are disciplined with your gearing (and I know Rod's not,
    I've seen the gears he crunches... :*), you don't need to throw the
    lever straight from 23 to 12 in .5 of a second. You need to do it
    quickly, but at a reasonably well controlled pace.
    
    Actually, (rathole alert! paragraphs starting with actually always have
    a rathole attached...) I think disciplined gearing is something that
    regular racing forces on riders. A very large generalisation, I know,
    but most "lesiure" cyclists, from the guy that rides around the block
    once a week to the dedicated tourist always tend to crunch larger gears
    and be lazier about moving that funny metally pointy thing on the down
    tube...
    
    Graham.

I have non-Ergo on the Vitus, but it's indexed, and compared with the indexed 
Shimano 600 on the training bike, it's better.  However, the Campag has not 
done 2 years hard work yet, so I'll wait judgement.

As for Rod's comment - it should be -
Crunch over the top in 30 x 24, park the bike against the bar wall, fill up 
the inner man with coffee and pain au chocolat, put the levers in the top 
gear positions, lift back wheel and turn pedals.  Freewheel for as far as 
possible.

    re .22 
    > ... regular racing forces good changing
    
    I could not agree more.  I know from my experience that I am a bad,
    indisciplined gear changer.  I just don't care about getting the
    maximum out myself and my bike.  If during a logn climb the road
    flattens for a few hundred yards, I'll just ease off rather than change
    up.  This is something I'd never have done while I was still racing..
    
    Lets face it I'd be better of with a 4 speed Sturmy Archer....
    
    /r

    
    or fixed wheel...  :*)
    
    Graham.

    My original STI's were "sprinter's specials."  You could downshift
    by onesies but all upshifts went straight to the 12!
    
    ed

    	Oh my aching knees!

     Rod, I had to replace mine this year. Even the mechanic at my
     local shop went ouch!