Conference noted::bicycle

    
    
    Ti - light
    Al - not quite so light
    
    What? You were looking for more detail? All I know is 1 Scottish
    cyclist - 11.5 stones, .75 overweight..... (Mind you the plaster must
    take up most of that.  No?   :*)

     Graham, you bring up a good philosophical point... Is a cyclist
    simply a component of the entire machine???? :-)
    
     Weight on that component is significant... Present company excluded
    :-)
    
     Chip

    I've seen the weight of the American Classic seatpost listed as low
    as 145gm, but it's really more like 190gm (road version).
    
    Part of this may stem from the fact that Allan Kingsbury is making
    American Classic-type stuff under his own label now, so maybe he
    really does make a lighter version.
    
    The aluminum post is about 25gm more, so the weight savings isn't all
    that great for Ti -- but I've been using a Ti post for a year, and it's 
    almost as clean as the day I bought it.  With my acid perspiration, that
    doesn't hold true with aluminum, unless I wipe it after every ride. 
    
    You can save a few more grams on aluminum by cutting off unneeded mm 
    (just don't buy a smaller frame later on 8-{ ).  A plumber's pipe 
    cutter is a good tool for a nice clean cut.  Lotsa luck trying to
    cut the titanium, though!
    
    Justin
    saw the 

     Thanks Justin... I agree with the Ti finish being bomb-proof.
    The post on my TT bike looks like it spent the last hundred
    years in the Atlantic...
    
     Chip

    
    
    
       What about the new XYZ or whatever pedals from Shimano?? Even
    though I'm not a shimano fan but I think these babies could hit it big.
    I've heard they are very light and something as popular as shimano
    could turn into a new standard (like Look, Time).
    Anyone know how light is light? (for the SPDs) and how expensive?
    
    
    
    
                                                            Wayne V -who's
                                                     injured knee from
                                                     weights is finally
                                                     healed
    
     

     The pedals you are referring to are the PD-7410's. They do need
    their own cleat and are not compatible with the SPD's.
    
     They retail for about $225.00. They weigh in at 320g. Light, but
    can be beaten.  Bicycling has a small article on them in the Feb.
    issue. While they liked them, they rated the uncompatibility factor
    low.
    
     Sampson Stratics come in at 174g. The SPD is 450g. I know the Bryne
    Speedplay is lower, but I don't have the weight.
    
        Chip

>     Sampson Stratics come in at 174g

light weight isn't everything though. (i can't believe i'm saying this.) i had a
pair of the old style sampson pedals (pre strtics), which i bought as my first
venture into clipless pedal-dom, onaccounta they were so light. unfortunately
you have to have leg control like pagannini had finger control to clip into the
damn things. the first time i tried someone's LOOK style cleats i couldn't
believe the difference. *it was so easy*. i went out and bought look style
pedals (heavy shimano ones at that) within a week. the ease of use issue
outweighed (no pun intended) the weight savings. can't comment on ease of use
for the new stratics but a friend that tried them thought looks were still
easier to use.

justin, how are those speedplays doing for you? now there are some light pedals.
if their ease of use approaches look's then that might be where i spend my
christmas bike money. save some weight. yeah, yeah, yeah.

i weighed my new (nivacrom) serotta colorado II this weekend. took off spare
tire bag, pump and water bottles. (left cages on. i'm not that anal.) to weigh
the bike i stood on my bathroom scale and then picked up the bike and then got
the difference. i repeated this a few times and each time it came out the same -
an astonshing 20 lbs. this is for a 63 cm bike with a fairly long wheel base.
(ie lots of metal there.) the components are a not-at-all-light, mottly mix of
suntour, sachs, mavic, campy, shimano and more including a 12-24 8-spd freewheel
and an american classic mountain bike seat post. no trick stuff at all. (did
have tubulars though.)

gonna do like justin says and cut the end off the american classic mountain bike
seatpost. don't need all that post now that i have a bike that fits. yay!

     The weight really does sound astonishing... 
    
      Chip

>     The weight really does sound astonishing... 

yeah. what needs to be remembered is that it's a bathroom scale. if anyone in
the area has a more well calibrated way to measure something i'd love to find
out what it weighs for sure. i suppose i could do something like put an object
whose weight i know on the scale to see what it says. there's an idea.

     Most good bike shops have scales. A friend on mine has a postal
    scale (in grams) that's great for small stuff. For frames, maybe
    a UPS scale.
    
     The weight I advertise is taken from Gamache's scale.
    
     Chip
    
     Re; checking it out... if you have any free weight plates kicking
         around you might try adding them progressively to the scale
         to see if they jive (weights and readout).

    	Humerous anecdote:
    
    	Double indemnity - The decrease in weight on your HPV has a
                           direct relationship with the decrease in
                           weight on your wallet.
    
    	Therefor you save weight doubly:
    
    		A weight-savings in your wallet is realized
    		as you invest in weight-saving components.
    
    		Though it is satisfying.
    
    	As Jean-Luc Picard would say:  MAKE IT SO!

    Speedplays advertise at 215gm/pair, and it wouldn't surprise me if
    they're being honest (this is with a steel spindle -- titanium are
    obviously lighter).  And if this is true, then you've saved half a 
    pound on regular step-ins.
    
    They are the easiest pedals I've ever tried to get into, so while
    they're in the same league as Sampsons in weight, they blow away
    Sampsons in terms of usability.  
    
    Oddly enough, I think one of the main reasons why these haven't caught 
    on more is that many dealers are lukewarm about them (I've had one guy 
    try to talk me out of them, even though I own two pair). 
    
    I've got a hunch this is because they feel so *weird* the first few
    *weeks* you use them -- so no dealer is going to be enthusiastic about 
    them unless they own a pair themselves, and use them regularly.  You 
    don't fall in love with these after using them once or twice.  They grow 
    on you.
    
    If you've got the patience to get used to them (and it *does* happen -- 
    you're just riding along one day and you realize you don't feel funny any 
    more), be aware that they're not waterproof -- I've had to clean one pedal
    already.  It was fairly simple (although I qualify as a good mechanic, so 
    it's not *that* simple).
    
    If you like to tinker with stuff, I think the weight and the easiness
    of getting in and out (but out only if you want to), these are a good
    investment.  I can't think of anything else offhand that chops bike
    weight by half a pound all by itself, except a lighter frame.
    
    BTW Chip, I got a poor man's Ti -- 1993 Basso (Litespeed).  Rides like
    a dream so far, but my final judgement is reserved until after my first
    50mph descent!
    
    Justin

     Justin, if the it flows as well as a Merlin (I've done 55mph) you'll
    love the metal!
    
     On the Speedplays... I'm seriously thinking of a new pedal system this
    season... I'd like to take a look at them, but Gamache doesn't have
    them... He ordered a pair but they never came in.
    
     So you really like them, eh? Tell me more...
    
     P.S. My Boone Ti cogs came in... Veeeeerrrry nice (and light!)
    
     Chip

    	Chip,
    
    	I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Ed Kross (1992 RAAM Rookie of
    	the Year) rides with Speedplays. He likes them a lot. You can
    	click in from either side.
    
    	Scott

>    Speedplays advertise at 215gm/pair, and it wouldn't surprise me if
>    they're being honest (this is with a steel spindle -- titanium are
>    obviously lighter).  

thanks justin. sounds really good. how much do they go for? (both steel and
titanium)

does the weight for the pedals include the cleats? the reason i ask is that with
the other clipless pedal systems (Look, Time) the cleat fits inside the pedal
and is made of plastic so it is small and has a negligible weight. however, with
the speedplay, the pedal fits into the cleat and so the cleat is fairly large,
no? so, it's weight might not be ignorable. also, isn't the cleat metal?

RE: <<< Note 2486.15 by WRACK::ZIELONKO >>>

>...with the other clipless pedal systems (Look, Time) the cleat fits inside
>the pedal and is made of plastic so it is small and has a negligible weight.

Gee, with my Time shoes and pedals, the cleats are two chunks of metal (the
front piece appears aluminum, the rear piece brass). Are other Time cleats
different?
						-- Tom

>>...with the other clipless pedal systems (Look, Time) the cleat fits inside
>>the pedal and is made of plastic so it is small and has a negligible weight.

sorry, messed my wording up. should have said:

...with the other clipless pedal systems (Look, Time) the cleat fits inside the
pedal and the Look is even made of plastic so it is small and has a negligible
weight.

anyway justin provided more info in the clipless pedal note

     I know the answer is in this note somewhere, but what is the rule
    for how much seatpost should be in the seat tube (4"'s?)...
    
     Of course I'm thinking about it!
    
     Chip

I try not to let the 'maximum' mark show  -  too much.


Rod

    I'm a little guy (5'6") with a 53cm frame. There is a lot of seatpost
    in the tube... (sounds painful doesn't it!) I was just wondering if
    someone "really" knew how much. Generally, markings by manufacturers
    tend to be on the conservative side.
    
     Chip

    Certainly enough that the end is below the lugs so you don't add any
    stress to that joint.
    
    Gee, Linda's been having similar thoughts.  She uses a 47 cm frame
    and doesn't have much seat post exposed as it is.
    
    After you cut your seatpost, be sure to taper the inside as much as the
    original end was tapered.  You would want to be caught carrying around
    that unneeded metal.
    
    Though I don't know what you should use for the tapering operation.
    
    ed

>    I'm a little guy (5'6") with a 53cm frame. There is a lot of seatpost
>    in the tube...

i have owned a few bikes that were just too small and so have been forced to go
with the seat post really high - well past the "maximum" mark in fact. at one
point when i was experimenting with a higher seat position i had the seat post
up so high that if you pulled it any higher you could see the bottom of the seat
tube inside the little slot in the back of the seat tube. although i didn't have
it like that for long  it was always close to that with never a problem. who
knows if it would have broken sooner or later though? i ended up going to a
mountain bike seat post (american classic) and now that i have a bike that
fits me better i'm thinking about cutting off the extra seat post too. let me
know how you make out.

shave those grams.

    According to an article in the March '93 issue of Mountain Bike Action
    on inexpensive ways to shave pounds off your bike you should leave at
    least 2.5 inches of seatpost in your frame.
    
    BTW. The article goes on to say that, depending on the seatpost
    material, you can save about 30 grams (1 oz.) per inch of discarded
    seatpost.  Not to bad.
    
    Kevin

     Makes me wonder if I should just toss the seat! :-)
    
     Chip

    ouch
    

    
    The folks from Magic Motorcycle came down to show off their newest
    creations at the Seattle Bike Expo this weekend.  Looks like a good
    year for all of you "high-tech, low-weight, price is no object"
    hardcores.  I'll just keep dreaming and living vicariously through
    these notes.
    
    They had a 3-arm, 4-bolt crank that is very similar to their current
    5-arm(?) crank.  The rings are a 1-piece, 2-ring part.  As with their
    current products, the machining is perfect, and the parts come anodized
    in every color of the rainbow.  Don't have weight; price is in the
    $550. range
    
    The other (and more interesting) component group was a full rear wheel.
    The rim (as described - they didn't have the proto with them) will be
    an aero, sectional assembly with "spoke" sections and "non-spoke"
    sections alternating.  Spokes were fairly normal looking blades, but
    threaded at both ends.  The hub was a two-piece, odd looking affair,
    3 to 4 inches in diameter, with little "wings" protruding at regular
    intervals around the edge that the spokes screw into.  The freewheel
    pawls are internal to the hub, and the cogs (machined in groups of 2)
    fit onto the axle with keyed slots to insure that they align properly.
    8-speed, no spacers required, lots of cool colors available, and for the 
    Indurains among us, they can start with a 9/10 tooth pair.
    
    This setup is supposed to be competitive with disk wheels - all the
    aero with half the weight.  Or so they say.  Priced less than a late
    model used compact car.
    
    Check them out at the pro equipment retailer near you.  They'll be in
    the back room, with the steel doors and the alarms.
    
    Will

    
    
    Was cutting down on the number of crank arms to reduce weight too? :*)
    
    Graham.

    
    I really think so - these guys are true believers in the low-weight
    religion.  The guy enthusiastically pointed out that the four bolts
    would be just as strong, but that the new design was lighter.
    
    Will 

 Bearings on the Magic cranks are outside the bottom bracket, the bottom
 bracket having a large diameter axle through it.  They make cranks with
 standard bolt patterns too.  Prices for their rings are in the $200 per
 region.  The wheels with 16 blades each and Magic rims will go for $1500
 a pair.  Tandem wheels with Magic brakes, 18 blades hit the $1800 region
 tentatively.  Derailleurs are supposed to be ready for the Anaheim show
 this year --- October isn't it?
 
 The gear is interesting and expensive.  Anyone want the phone number?

    Was it Ti?
    
    ed

    	Iffen it was Ti, Chip needs the number. 8-)>
    
    	Scott

    
    I'm pretty sure it was all alloy, but what the heck - at least its
    more expensive than Ti.  Besides, you get cool _colors_.
    
    Will7

    
    
    Will someone please tell me what's wrong with good old alloy coloured
    cranks...  And why don't you lot learn to spell colour with a 'u'? I
    thought the base language for this conference was English...  :*)
    
    Watch them flames flood in....  :*)
    
    Graham.

 I think the alloy is 7075 aluminum.  The components are CNC milled and
 bonded friction fit on some parts.  Not titanium but designed to use
 the alloys to best advantage.  The freewheel mechanism was in the middle
 of the hub on the design displayed with a pawl engagement ramp about
 half an inch wide.  The area is large enough so they can use nonmetallic
 lightweight pawls.  The thrust bearings in the hub are substantial for
 clamping the quick release and the bearings in the integral cassette
 are needles in the cassette and balls on the off-side.  They did not get
 into the tandem hub at all due to lots of questions coming in.
 
 

    
    re .33...
    
    >>>    Watch them flames flood in....  :*)
    
    "them" flames, indeed.  And what colour might them flames be, Graham?
    
    You've been corrupted beyond repair.  The Queen could never condone
    such butchery of the language. (many smilies, of course).
    
    You're also watching the most lucrative trend in American cycling - 
    making stuff with a good technical story that looks trendy and costs a 
    fortune.  The only thing "wrong" with alloy coloured (how 'bout that?)
    cranks is that you probably already have some, or at least can buy them
    for a price that's only unreasonable, not unbelievable.  "Cool" colors,
    on the other hand, give you a chance to prove your dedication to the
    sport.  The "proper" bike rider these days is expected to spend at least 
    3 months pay on his machine - its the same scam the diamond industry 
    uses so effectively on prospective husbands.
    
    Of course, I thought click shifting was a silly fad until just a few
    months ago.  Don't look to me to predict where this stuff is going.
    
    Will
    
    

     Will, I need to argue the point about cycling industries being in the
    same game as the diamond industry... Simply put, you are subject to a
    lifetime of economic dictatorship, unrelenting companionship, and trip
    through life without a smile on your face (once you pass that diamond).
    
     When you get on a bike... Well, you know :-)
    
     (do I sound married???? :-) ????)
    
     Chip

     Bryne SpeedPlay update:
    
     Bryne will begin shipping their Ti models (2) next week.
    
     One model has the Ti spindle only. The other model has the Ti spindle
     and the mounting plate...
    
     Guess what.................???????????????????????????????????????
    
         Chip

    but what kinds of screws to you get for your shoes?
    
    ed

     Molecularly rearranged magnesium/Ti alloy screws included...
    
     My bike's home now... I did miss her.
    
        Chip

     Just piece of information (if someone out there gets nutty as me)...
    
     I had the Boone Tech. Ti cogs put on my Merlin. For some reason, the
    downshifting was dragging on the 15. It upshifted perfectly. With some
    adjustment, I got it to shift down perfectly, but began to experience
    upshift drag.
    
     The solution? I'm not exactly sure. But it works better than ever now.
    The rear derailleur cable housing was replaced with a high quality
    housing. The change that made the biggest was a different chain (i
    believe). Off with the Rholoff and with... A Sedis Pro. Yup!
    
     Hey, Campy stuff isn't supposed to work with Sedis, right? NOT! Man,
    does it shift CRISP now! I can't speak to how it'd work with the OEM
    cogs, but it's unreal now.
    
     On the the never ending zero weight quest...
    
       Chip

    Not sure where this one belongs. I guess it fits the CLIPLESS note too,
    but I'm more comfortable putting it here...
    
    I received my Bryne Ti pedals last Friday and mounted them Sunday along
    with adjusting the cleats. 
    
    Very nice system!
    
    I went for the maiden voyage yesterday. Nothing too demanding in the
    way of distance or climbs (south Ashburnham hill was the big event)
    on a 20 miler of rolling terrain.
    
    I love them. They do feel like you're on ice (as Peter Vincent
    described them), but there is a significant "power" feel being so
    close to the pedal axle.
    
    I spent most of the time in the saddle hammering, but did get out a
    couple times to experience the feel. The saddle was no problem, but as
    Pete warned, getting out requires a conscious effort to control your
    heels. I whacked the chain stay a couple of times - nothing severe.
    It will take practice.
    
    No problem engaging or disengaging... Easy.
    
    I bought some TIME's to go with the new system. The shoes were
    unbelievably comfortable compared to my '88 models. 
    
     Chip

     I mailed the Boone Ti cogs back them on Monday. They just didn't 
     work as well as the OEM's... They did work, but the crispness
     just wasn't there. I talked to Boone himself. He wasn't really
     happy (tone of his voice), but agreed to refund my money. Of
     course, I will recycle the refund back into the Merlin.
    
     He kept harping on spacing. He assured me that his cog set was
     machined to the very same specs that Campy used. However, there
     were differences discernable to the naked eye when putting his
     and Campy's together. The most noticeable being the missing scalloped
     teeth on his and the ramps on the alternating teeth. Oh well, live
     and learn...
    
     So, I'm going to be pulling my Delta brakes off and going with Campy's
     new dual pivot set. The people I who have them that I ride with love
     'em... Plus the weight difference is a full 1/2 pound!!! :-)
    
     I may be cleaning out some "stock" shortly. I also put the Campy
     jockey/pulley wheels back on. So I'm considering selling the Deltas,
     Carmicheal Ti pulley/jockey wheels (two sets - drilled/undrilled),
     C Record brake levers (non-Ergo), C Record index down tube shifters,
     and some other odds and ends... 

    Hey Chip,
    
    Seems to me I recall you saying in another note that the Campy dual
    pivots are way over priced, not that it would stop you from buying
    them, and that you would go with Mavic if you made a brake move.
    
    What gives?
    
    Don

     I can't get the Mavics without getting the brake levers, however
     I did consider those... The Campy's can be had $180.00... Not
     bad. You see, I have this refund money coming and it's already
     burning a hole in my pocket... And hey, we're talking a half a
     pound here :-)
    
       Chip

Chip,

I'm sure the Campy Dual Pivots are really nice but if you really
wanted to save grams aren't the Chorus brakes even lighter?

As to the cogs, what about the Campy Alloy set?  I know you could only use
them on race day but that when it really counts anyways.

Just some passing thoughts,
Tom

Can't wait for the sale price sheets to come out. :)

     I've used alloy cogs before and they go quickly (at the least ones I
    had). I know you'll laugh at this, but Campy doesn't give them away
    and I don't want to buy new ones every season (or even getting into
    switching them every race day)...
    
     I know Chorus is lighter but I want to avoid side-pulls if I can...
    
     Thanks for the inputs...
    
          Chip

    
    	It was mentioned earlier on in this note, but never really dis-
    	cussed.  How important is it to remove weight from a street bike?
    
    	I asked a friend, the one with the M400, and he said that the
    	reason that less weight is desired in off-road bikes is so that
    	the rider can jump easier ... IE, lift the bike if need be.
    
    	But in a street bike, you don't need to do any jumping.  All you
    	have to do is pedal and keep the thing up.  So considering that
    	the rider weighs 175 pounds [give or take] and the bike weighs
    	25 pounds [again, give or take] ... what good does it do to take
    	a pound off the bike?  Who would notice a 1-pound decrease in
    	weight, considering it's a .5% decrease in the total load?
    
    	Chip, you could reduce the weight of your bike by 150 pounds plus
    	by getting off of it, mounting a pair of training wheels and push-
    	ing it down the road.  8^)
    
    	I checked my bike the other night and it's currently at 26 pounds,
    	which includes a Motorola flip phone and a full large water bottle
    	[no spare parts as of yet].  If I get on the bike we're up to 160
    	pounds total load.  What amazing difference[s] should I expect to
    	notice by spending $500 and removing 4 pounds from the bike?  Be-
    	sides, of course, the $500 American Express bill that comes in
    	next month?
    

    I will only begin to address "rolling resistance".  The weight in your
    rims and wheels has a larger effect on the responsiveness of the bike. 
    The rotation of the tires has rotational inertia which needs to be
    overcome in order to accelerate up to speed.  You can think of this as
    pushing the wheels around.  The more massive the wheel the more effort
    it will take and you will be able to notice even small differences. 
     Of course, the mass of the rider and stationary parts of
    the bike have inertia and reductions in these will be helpful as well. 
    
    BTW, going down hill, assuming you can achieve similar rolling
    resistance and aerodynamics, a heavier bike and rider combination
    should be able to go faster than a lighter one.  I am not recommending
    eating an extra meal :-)  You will no doubt spend more time going up
    hills than going down them.
    
    Now I will stand clear for the experts to discuss the merits of Ti seat
    posts etc.
    
    Rick
    

    Watched the North American mountain bike championships on ESPN last
    night and there were several bikes with spokeless Kevlar rear rims, none
    on a winning bike though, I think.  Talk about a grueling cross country
    race.  3600 vertical feet total climb over 21.5 miles, 4 x around a 5+ 
    mile circuit.   
    
    Brian

>    	But in a street bike, you don't need to do any jumping.  All you
>    	have to do is pedal and keep the thing up.  So considering that
>    	the rider weighs 175 pounds [give or take] and the bike weighs
>    	25 pounds [again, give or take] ... what good does it do to take
>    	a pound off the bike?  Who would notice a 1-pound decrease in
>    	weight, considering it's a .5% decrease in the total load?

If you are overweight then there is no substitute for losing body weight.
However ask anyone that's ridden a road bike at the limit and they'll tell you
that a lighter bike (especially one with lighter wheels) will just plain go
faster.

FWIW. My bike is a 63cm steel Serotta which is not light by any modern road bike
standard; I do not consider myself a "lightweight parts freak".
    
>What amazing difference[s] should I expect to notice by spending $500 and
>removing 4 pounds from the bike?  Be- sides, of course, the $500 American
>Express bill that comes in next month?

The usual tradeoffs apply. The lighter stuff tends to be less dependable so you
have to be careful. IMHO if you are not a licensed racer then save your money.
Better to spend it on a bike vacation.

Karol

    -1 what Karol said... I can honestly (due to the 12 step program)
    that I'm a recovering weight parts freak :-).
    
    The best place to drop a few pounds would be on yourself. Ultra-light
    machines are for the high performance guys and there are still a lot
    of pros who don't go really crazy with this. Me, I just happen to like
    titanium... Hell, I don't even have Ti BB spindle anymore!
    
    Chip

    Well, a few weeks ago, I got a flat on my rear tire about a mile and a
    half from the house.  No spare tube or patches.  Had it been on the
    front, I would have wheelied it back to the house.  Since I didn't want
    to damage the rear tire any more than necessary, I shouldered it and
    walked home.
    
    At times like this, I wish I'd spent more for a lighter bike        (-:

    
    	I carry a Motorola flip phone with me.
    
    	If my bike breaks down I'll probably just call a tow truck.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    	Well, Chip, you were off for 2 weeks ... any success in getting
    	that bike of yours down to 0 pounds?
    
    	8^)
    

    ... nope, but i think i did manage to reach maximum density in the
        torso department :-)
    
        Chip

    well, it's beginning again... i ordered the TREK OCLV bar ends
    for my Y22... back to the clinic for me... 

    
    Any other bar end would do that bike injustice. Good for you..
    
    Shaw

    Thanks... they're light, strong, but slippery when wet... but then
    again, i haven't been up to my handlebars in water yet :-)
    
    Chip

And if you are, the bike will be so light, it will float.

;-)

Does anyone have any experience w/Hershey Bottom Brackets?

I was coming home from Ashby over the weekend, and detoured through Gamaches,
where it caught my eye.....

--Roger