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Conference noted::bicycle

Title: Bicycling
Notice:Bicycling for Fun
Moderator:JAMIN::WASSER
Created:Mon Apr 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:3214
Total number of notes:31946

2391.0. "Worra Lorra Bottle..." by MASALA::GGOODMAN (Born Victim) Sat Aug 22 1992 21:02

	I've come across a topic that we haven't discussed yet.

	Now we've discussed many silly things in here; the effect that a tail-
  hurricane has on the fluency of your cadence, the effect that a RAAM has on
  your mental health (the jury is still out on that one), the effect that
  titanium has on your bank balance (we're lucky to have a qualified expert in
  this field), etc.

	Now it must be said that these are not exactly life or death problems
  (with the exception of your wife finding out the verdict of the Ti issue -
  that would definately be a death issue). There have been some discussions
  around slightly more important problems; how to correctly set up your Shimano
  STI (Vol I & II), how to climb Mt Wotsit (or was it why?), how to survive the
  the snowdrifts in the harsh Scottish summer (stay indoors), etc. But, let's
  be honest, these are still mundane issues that still only score a 3 on the
  interest-o-meter.

	Well, brothers and sisters, lets go for a 10!

	Water Bottles! The great 20th century enigma! This is real life and
  death stuff!

	We've had notes on bar tape - hah! Vanity! Bar Tape doesn't hydrate you
  when it's 120 degrees in the shade! We've had notes on aggresive motorists.
  Well, what you need is a water bottle filled with amonia - if he doesn't have
  any eyes left, he can't ram you off the road in his car...

	Water botles are a major part of your cycling kit. They are have many
  uses:-

	Entertainment. Whilst in a RR bunch - can you knock the commissaire's
  hat off without him realising who it was?

	Cheating. In a two man breakaway? Know that your companion has got the
  edge on you? Slip him your water bottle, conveniently doped up to it's
  eyeballs (just exactly where is a water botle's eyeballs? Anyway I digress...)
  and if he does beat you - hey presto! Positive dope test, disqualification
  and a nice little promotion for you...

	Romance. See a young attractive male/female at the side of the road? As
  you approach, go to take a drink and oops! Silly me! I've dropped it! Turn
  around to pick it up. As you get there, he/she has picked it up to hand to
  you and as you go to take it out of their hand you gaze deeply into their
  eyes (oh my hearts gone all wobbly)...
                                     
	And now, to the point...

	Why, oh why, oh why doesn't the new Giro water bottle I've just bought
  (Seven pounds! Seven pounds! That's my entire annual bar tape budget out the
  window...) fit in my Vitus bottle cage? Why can't they produce one standard
  size bottle/cage to a recognised European standard? After all, they tried to
  create a European standard for condoms until the Italians complained that it
  was too big (this is true by the way!).

	Answers on a postcard, please...

	I'm away for a lie down now...

  Graham.

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2391.1JURA::PELAZ::MACFADYENIs wrestling fixed?Mon Aug 24 1992 08:2310
I don't buy water bottles. I get given them at cyclo-sportif events.


Smug of FV


PS  Actually there is a wide variation in water bottle quality. I got one
this year which is excellent: softer plastic makes it easy to squeeze, wider
nozzle than usual gives a powerful jet of water, plus it's in hot pink to
match my new shorts.
2391.2TRUELY DISPOSABLE...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CMon Aug 24 1992 10:4114
     Hi Graham. You're right... It's not exactly up there with figuring
    out the meaning of life.
    
     I have Giro's Bottle Rockets... They're just okay (especially for the
    money). At 7 pounds (I think that's what they weigh too) they should
    fill themselves.
    
     I like the standard (crummy traditional) bottle with the wide nozzle.
    Pretty much a dispensible item and I treat them that way. You usually
    end up with so many at the end of the year (race hand-outs) that I get
    badgered to get rid of them (cupboard space consumption) or look for
    excuses myself.
    
     Chip
2391.3Grotty bottles...HANNAH::SMITHMichael J. Smith: DSG1-1/K8Mon Aug 24 1992 11:017
I like white bottles and have black metal cages.  The metal/paint on the cages
wears off on the bottles and makes them look dirty.  Anybody know how to clean
that kind stuff off the bottles?

The paint/metal stuff also gets on my hands and they look dirty.

Does anybody know any cage/bottle combinations that really work?
2391.4:-)NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurMon Aug 24 1992 12:0516
    re: .-1: use a plastic cage.
    
    Graham,
      Are you sure you don't have a Scottish bottle cage?  You know,
    a bit tight?
    
    A couple of good lines I heard about the bottle rockets when they
    were introduced:
    
    Fellow walks into a bike shop with a water bottle and says, "Give
    me one of these, only more expensive."
    
    OR, "Looks like a solution looking for a problem." (my own copyrighted
    line)
    
    ed
2391.5costs/weighs < 7 pounds, too...SUSHI::KMACDONALDMon Aug 24 1992 13:0610
Just found a new bottle t'other day - standard dual-bottle size, but the
top was called a ShowerCap (tm) - if you pull the stopper out 1/2 way, 
there are six little vents that shoot the contents sort of out and 
sideways (good for dousing yourself, or ammonia for 6 doggies 
simultaneously); if you pull the top all the way out it's a standard 
single stream from the center. Way too kool, so I had to have one. 
'Sides, it was purple, wife'll let me buy durn near anything if it's 
purple - haven't put this to the stress test by looking for a purple 
Merlin or nothin'... :-)
                                      ken
2391.6ALTERNATIVES...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CMon Aug 24 1992 16:087
     This may be insipid on the surface, but to cure the "ugly bottle"
    syndrome buy unpainted cages (or titanium ones) or go with a com-
    posite cage (they work well with everything).
    
     Otherwise bail out on the cages and use your shirt...
    
     Chip
2391.7dribble bottleREFINE::TORCHIASteve Torchia DSG1-TASTEMon Aug 24 1992 17:0513
    I seem to be the only one I know that completely despises bottles with
    the large valve.  With the small valve, it is easier to control how
    much liquid you want.  With the large valve, too much comes out at a
    time, and there isn't enough pressure to get it far enough back in the
    mouth.  It just comes right out, fills up the space between my lips
    and teeth, and I swallow half with the other half pouring down my chin. 
    Kind of a dribble glass effect.
    
    It also seems harder and harder to find bottles with the small valve in
    stores.  I hope I'm not a dying breed...doomed to someday be the first
    person to ever drown on a bicycle.
    
    -Steve
2391.8Solar powered non-freezing bottlesVO2MAX::DELORIEAI've got better things to do.Tue Aug 25 1992 12:4913
No one has yet mentioned the dread of winter riding. Freezing water in the 
bottles. I have a pair of black bottles just for the occasion. They have the wide 
valve, which I've found, doesn't freeze as fast as the narrow valve.

Clear bottles are my favorite. Not only do they show you how much water you have
left in them but it's easier to see how clean the inside is when you need
to clean them. (ie. Gatorade scum)

What about those "Camel Back" jobs. How anyone can have something on their back
while riding is beyond me. I haven't seen the pro's using them. Maybe `Greg' 
will come out with a new version "Camel Stomach".

T
2391.9One hump or two?SCAACT::SMITHGThe Solitary Cyclist - PBP FinisherTue Aug 25 1992 13:006
    For those of us who ride in the tubular-glue-melting asphalt-softening
    heat of Texas summers, Camel-backs are almost required equipment. In
    fact, at Hotter'n Hell this Saturday, there'll be so many Camel-backs
    out there, you'd think it was a caravan going to Marakeesh.
    
    GS
2391.10Needs a Wider ValveODIXIE::RRODRIGUEZWhere's that Tour d' France thang?Tue Aug 25 1992 13:275
2391.11as an observer. Just Dromedaries though, no BactrianNOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurTue Aug 25 1992 13:343
    There were dozens of camelbacks on BMB and last week's RAAM Open.
    
    ed
2391.12REFINE::TORCHIASteve Torchia DSG1-TASTETue Aug 25 1992 15:179
    re .8
    
    I put flaming-hot water in my bottles in the winter.  By the time I
    need that first swig, it's just cooled down enough to drink.  It
    usually holds off the freezing for about an hour and a half to 2 hours.  
    By then I'm usually frozen myself and am heading for home. 
    
    Steve
    
2391.13PIPPER::GOODTue Aug 25 1992 15:397
    
    	RE:CAMELBACK
    
    	      	The Camelback comes in insulated and non insulated
    versions. It may not freeze as quickly.
    
    	Roger
2391.14LEAVE MY HERO ALONE!WMOIS::GIROUARD_CTue Aug 25 1992 16:084
     Re; .8 -- Hey, was that a LeMond bashing note?  :-)
    
          T
        Chip 
2391.15VO2MAX::DELORIEAI've got better things to do.Tue Aug 25 1992 18:2714
RE< .13  Ya ;-) couldn't resist.

Camel backs....

You mean people really use them....

Come on, your joking, right? Why are they so popular? 

To me, they would be uncomfortable, heavy, a bother and uncomfortable.

Oh wait I forgot the aero-seatpost factor. You must be able to descend hills 
around 65mph with one on I bet.

Tom
2391.16about the CamelbakSHALOT::ELLISJohn Lee Ellis - assembly requiredTue Aug 25 1992 19:5127
>Come on, your joking, right? Why are they so popular? 
>
>To me, they would be uncomfortable, heavy, a bother and uncomfortable.

    The straps kind of dig in.  They aren't as wide as one thinks would be
    optimal.  The pouch doesn't feel like that much weight on the back, 
    and it is soft and conformant.  Also, it fits in the valley formed by
    the spine.
    
    The plusses include: you don't have to reach to drink, which is an annoyance
    factor in a time-trial activity such as a triathlon, and something you
    put off too long on extended climbs (at least I do).  I once climbed Mt.
    Mitchell starting from 2000' (29 miles of climbing up to 6684') and
    purposely used one, because it allowed me to keep my hands on the
    handlebar, brake hoods, wherever.  It worked: I stayed much more hydrated.  
    
    RAAM riders use them a lot during the unsupported segments.
    They keep the drink cool and have large capacity.  I have bike friends
    who use them in place of waterbottles on the most casual-seeming
    training rides, though, and I think there's not much advantage in that.
    
>Oh wait I forgot the aero-seatpost factor. You must be able to descend hills 
>around 65mph with one on I bet.

    Their recent ads claim that their product makes you more aerodynamic! :-)
    
    -john
2391.17PIPPER::GOODTue Aug 25 1992 20:198
    
    	RE:.15
    
    		The main reason that people use them is they hold 70
    	ounces of liquid. The next is the ease of use. They are popular 
    	with MTB'rs because 7-11's are few and far between out in the
    	woods.
    		Roger
2391.18DON'T SKIRT THE REAL ISSUE...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CWed Aug 26 1992 10:055
     Okay, since people are avoiding the real question, I'll bite...
    
     Do they come in titanium?   :-)
    
       Chip
2391.19poor man's camel backYNGSTR::BROWNWed Aug 26 1992 16:5410
    On *long* trips (mtn or road bike) I bring a fanny pack with an
    ordinary 2 liter (67 oz, same as Camelback) soda bottle of water to
    supplement water bottles on the frame.  I'm sure the fanny pack isn't
    as aerodynamic as a camel back, but I sweat like a pig and can't
    stand something covering my back.  Besides, if you're on the hoods and
    not bent over, the airflow is already broken up anyhow.  When the water
    is done, I can (properly) dispose of the 2 liter bottle (or get 5 cents
    for it) and if I want, put the scrunched up fanny pack in an underseat
    wedge pack.  The only problem is that it's tricky to get at the 2 liter
    bottle while riding.  .02 kb
2391.20PIPPER::GOODWed Aug 26 1992 17:477
    
    	Nashbar has a similar thing to the Camelback except it mounts
    on the waist, holds 30 oz. and it is pressurized (comes with a pump).
    I thought maybe two of these, one for power mixes (cytomax,ultra fuel
    etc) and one for spring water. Also the tube is insulated.
    
    	Roger
2391.21LOTSA CONFIGURATIONSWMOIS::GIROUARD_CThu Aug 27 1992 10:374
     There is also a model that rides on the back of the seatpost/seat 
    tube. 
    
     Chip
2391.22The Bad NewsKAOFS::W_VIERHOUTCentral Canada SupportThu Aug 27 1992 14:276
    
    
      You know whats most depressing about water bottles?
    The fact that the weight difference between a full one and an
    empty one is close to greater the weight one can save by purchasing
    every Ti part made.
2391.23:-)NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurThu Aug 27 1992 14:527
So ya might as well go back to the 60's when they were drilling holes in
everything to save weight.  Costs about the same eventually and you get
a new bike out of the deal.  :-)

Drill holes in your water bottles and you save a cuppla pounds, too.

ed
2391.24PIPPER::GOODThu Aug 27 1992 16:5114
    
    	Since this note has latent rathole tendencies aleady I'll
    put this in.
    	In the latest Dirtrag a column called the Old Coot put out
    this challenge. It is a test to see if a lighter bike is worth the
    bucks. A hypothesis is that the cheaper way may be to simply lose
    some pounds of body weight. Go out on a circuit that you are familiar
    with and have two full water bottles. Time yourself on the circuit.
    Remove a water bottle and do the circuit again and time yourself again.
    If the time improves then you are fit and ready to start making the
    bike lighter. If the time doesn't improve then the time and effort
    should be spent working on yourself.
    
    	8*) Roger
2391.25JURA::PELAZ::MACFADYENa lean silhouetteFri Aug 28 1992 08:2016
That seems like a horribly unscientific test to me, but then the whole issue
of how weight affects speed is very messy. Everyone would accept that lighter
is faster but how much does it really affect us in the range of weights we're
actually talking about?

It seems to me that a few pounds here or there won't make any difference on
a flat course, since 80-90% of one's effort is absorbed by air resistance.

On a hill of, say, 5% or steeper, your speed is slowed down to the extent
that air resistance becomes much less significant and most of your effort
goes into acquiring potential energy (ie height). In that case, a change of
weight of 1kg in a bike/rider combination of, for example, 90kg will lead to
a change in speed up the hill of just over 1%. 


Rod
2391.26NOT SIMPLE...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CFri Aug 28 1992 10:5115
     We also know that weight (more of it) assists in decents so is
    there an optimal weight (rider and machine)? Yup, probably a million
    variations and variables (e.g. body types, etc...).
    
     I would say that weight does make a difference on flats and absolutely
    on climbing. Just to simply say it does or doesn't is erroneous.
    Distance is a critical factor on both flats and climbing. And the
    efficiency cannot be factored exponentially. Length of climb, rate of
    climb, weight of machine, angle of climb, weight of rider, V02 max
    processing, rider weight to muscle ratio, anaerobic and aerobic
    thresholds, fatigue indecies...
    
     Anyone want to take a stab at charting this stuff????? :-)
    
       Chip
2391.27What about instant water?HANNAH::SMITHMichael J. Smith: DSG1-1/K8Fri Aug 28 1992 11:228
I once heard of a product that was called something like "instant water".  I
forget how it was packaged.  All you did was put some in a container, add
water and presto!  Come to think of it you would not need much packaging at all.
Send me $5 and I'll send you a sample (via EMAIL!)...

re .-n? ago

I don't like composite cages. 
2391.28Did someone say rat-hole?VO2MAX::DELORIEAI've got better things to do.Fri Aug 28 1992 13:4320
Speaking of weight vs speed...

I was wondering. Is the pound off of the person equal to the pound off the bike?

Or is it more like a pound off the person is 1/5th a pound off the bike.

It seems like the pound off the bike feel like 5 pounds off of the person.

I do know that the effect of losing weight off the bike is not going to give you
the performance of losing, lets say ten pounds, but it does metally feel a lot
faster.

Here is one true equation...

The greater the extra weight is on the person, the more he looks to the bike
for the answer.

I for one am guilty as charged. ;-)

Tom
2391.29RATHOLE-O-MANIA!ODIXIE::RRODRIGUEZWhere's that Tour d' France thang?Fri Aug 28 1992 14:2912
2391.30ANOTHER TWIST TO .28WMOIS::GIROUARD_CFri Aug 28 1992 14:305
     Tom, a similar rule along those lines is people lack ability
    often try to compensate with equipment... I'll admit to my being
    in that category...
    
     Chip
2391.31KIRKTN::GGOODMANBorn VictimFri Aug 28 1992 14:3613
    >> go downhill faster, but  how many times have you ever tried to drop
    >> somebody on a downhill?    
    
    Chiappucci tries it all the time...  :*)
    
    Dear Mr.Moderator,
    
    	Can you please rename this note to the Rathole Topic? But no one
    has yet given me answer on why there still isn't a water bottle
    standard...
    
    Graham.
    
2391.32WHOA...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CFri Aug 28 1992 15:5211
     My, my... Graham, I'e never known you to be so critical/testy :-)
    
     If I were to do a quick logical analysis, it's probably the same
    reasons why you use metrics and we use U.S. Standard, why there are
    50 hertz/60 hertz appliances. 
    
     You simply have to modernize over there :-)
    
     Chip
    
     P.S. Okay, I've taken cover... Please shoot now.
2391.33The rathole topic deepens.DANGER::JBELLAleph naught bottles of beer on the wall...Fri Aug 28 1992 17:159
>     If I were to do a quick logical analysis, it's probably the same
>    reasons why you use metrics and we use U.S. Standard...

    But U.S. Standard is metric.  It has been since 1976 or so.
    Inches and pounds and all that are technically called U.S. Customary.

    Is there a metrologist in the house?

    -Jeff Bell
2391.34Another angle to the ratholeINTRN6::DIALFri Aug 28 1992 17:534
If we can build bicycles that weigh less than 15 pounds and put men on the moon;
why can't we make water bottles that don't taste like plastic?

Barry 
2391.35STILL IN ORBIT... :-)WMOIS::GIROUARD_CFri Aug 28 1992 18:048
     No kiddin' (on the U.S. on the metric system)... I must be caught
    in a parallel universe (maybe a little less than parallel). I still
    buy veggies and fruits by the lb., "petrol" by the gallon, lumber
    by the inch, etc...
    
     :-)..........
    
     Chip  
2391.36Calamity in a ratholeNQOPS::CLELANDCenterline violation...Fri Aug 28 1992 20:129
    	And what about the irony?
    
    	That we North Americans actually measure the weight of a titanium
    	frame in * P-O-U-N-D-S * !?!?!?!?!?
    
    	What a friggin' calamity!!!
    
    	Sure, measure the seat tube in centimeters, and then weigh the
    	entire frame in pounds!  Absolutely disgusting...
2391.37But Chip hit me first, Mum... :*)44247::GGOODMANBorn VictimTue Sep 01 1992 15:3413
    
    
    	Ah! But do you want how backward you Americans are? You may weigh
    your expensive Ti frame in pounds, but you don't buy them in pounds, do
    you? DOLLARS! Pah! Monopoly money! Get yourself out of the rut that
    you'vr dug yourself into and move into the age of technology...
    
    	By God! What a surprise, I've managed to turn this into an
    Anti-American battle. Now, how do I fit Lemond into this...
    
    	Anti flak jacket at the ready...  :*)
    
    Graham.
2391.38Thinking of you, Graham.... :-)ABSISG::KMACDONALDTue Sep 01 1992 15:587
For the afterlife, perhaps we could design an ultimate personal hell for 
Graham - I'd imagine someplace where Graham had (for all eternity) Greg 
as his personal butler, serving up endless (non-metric) quantities of
tea (or perhaps coffee?) in Ti tea-cups, along with limitless quantities 
of TacoBell tacos, all the while Greg complaining to him about his 
early-season form.... :-)
                                ken
2391.39FLIP IT AND I LIKE IT!WMOIS::GIROUARD_CTue Sep 01 1992 16:054
     I like the conept Ken... But wouldn't it be better if Graham was
    Greg's personal servant?     :-)
    
      Chip
2391.40Sheer Bliss!PAKORA::GGOODMANBorn VictimTue Sep 01 1992 16:078
    
    
    	You guys still don't understand my country's character, do you?
    That would be my own personal heaven! A Scotsman's personal hell would
    be somewhere where he couldn't complain about anything! S'pose we can
    always complain about having nothing to complain about...  :*)
    
    Graham.
2391.41NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurTue Sep 01 1992 19:255
    OR IF Graham were Greg's domestique...
    
    ach,
    
    ed
2391.42MASALA::GGOODMANBorn VictimWed Sep 02 1992 09:195
    
    
    Get serious! Since when did domestiques get domestiques...  :*)
    
    Graham.
2391.43RUN FOR COVER...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CWed Sep 02 1992 10:093
     Nice groin shot Graham... Ouch!
    
         Chip
2391.44NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurWed Sep 02 1992 10:183
    ba-dum bum
    
    :-)
2391.45The Multiple Dimensions of the InfernoNOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurWed Sep 02 1992 10:194
    Well, in Graham's version of Hell, he is Greg's domestique.
    In Greg's version, Greg is Larry Fignon's domestique.  :-)
    
    ed
2391.46Wasnt there someone called greg in the kellogs ?GEM::BROWNLIEjimb....Q-bus and low-end StorageThu Sep 03 1992 13:176

	Who is this greg person ? Is he anything to do with the French
	newspaper ?

	jimb...
2391.47Greg who?NQOPS::CLELANDCenterline violation...Thu Sep 03 1992 13:357
    	Ummm,
    
    	You're joking, yes?
    
    	Actually, judging from his performance in the TdF, you ARE right.
    
    	Who is this Greg dude? (guy)
2391.48VICIOUS & RABID...WMOIS::GIROUARD_CFri Sep 04 1992 10:166
     Awww, come on you guys. You're hurting my feelings. I wouldn't
    toss Fignon a dime for a restroom if he was peeing in his pants
    on mainstreet at noon, but... I know I'm not worthy to hold the
    guy's food bag when it comes to cycling :-)
    
     Chip_who_can_appreciate_an_American_hero (and a French one)
2391.49another vote for old style narrow valvesSTAR::ZIELONKOFri Sep 04 1992 16:2622
and now, back to the program...

>    I seem to be the only one I know that completely despises bottles with
>    the large valve.

well, now there are two of us. i can't stand the big nozzles (they're too big
to call a valve.) for all the same reasons you stated. 

and anotha thing. i have a specialzed bottle with the large nozzle and after a
month of use the tab at the front that you use to open the cap has broken off
and the piece of plastic that holds the cap to the bottle has broken too.  these
bottles stink. i have another bottle (novara brand?) that leaks around the joint
between the cap and the bottle. what's going on? why did they have to change
something so simple that didn't need any changing? what's so hard about making a
simple water bottle i wonder? especially since the ones you used to get a while
back (REG brand?) worked fine. it's like a big step backward.

boy, could you ever imagine someone could get worked up over a water bottle?

flame off... to be fair i do like the tall bottles. i carry two. talk about
weight though. i don't know how i manage to turn the pedals with all that weight
on my bike. ;^)
2391.50I thought dribbling was normalNQOPS::THIBODEAUFri Sep 04 1992 17:264
    Its funny but I alway thought to be a "Cool" bike rider you had to
    dribble water all over the place when you took a drink.  :-)
    
    Alan
2391.51The Rathole noteKIRKTN::GGOODMANBorn VictimSun Sep 06 1992 03:0113
>>    Its funny but I alway thought to be a "Cool" bike rider you had to
>>    dribble water all over the place when you took a drink.  :-)
    
    Or your a 3 year old...  :*)
    
    Now my children! Lead me not into temptation! Do not try to lead me
    astray by making me denounce Brother Lemond! OK, just a little bit
    then...  I hate him, I hate him, I hate him, I hate him! There, at
    least I managed to do it constructively and with dignity...  :*)
    
    Graham.
    
    P.S Where do water bottles come into this note?  :*)
2391.52MOVIES::WIDDOWSONIts (IO$_ACCESS|IO$M_ACCESS) VMSTue Sep 08 1992 08:093
    Well I thought I'd sign back into BICYCLE with a big thankyou to
    the previous 51 notes for bringing some light into my second morning 
    back at work.
2391.53wide nozzles for nutritionSHALOT::ELLISJohn Lee Ellis - assembly requiredWed Sep 09 1992 14:2219
    
    Well, now, about those wide nozzles...  It's true the Specialized
    moderately wide spouts are not too sturdy, but while they hold up,
    they work (squirt) pretty well.  Another type I like is the Cannondale
    spout.  I've also gotten other bottles with even wider spouts but some
    sort of aerating design that just doesn't work at all.
    
    -> For normal use, wide or narrow spouts is a matter of, umm, taste.
       But for nutritional liquids, let me assure you, a wide spout is
       almost essential, especially those you mix up from powder.  I'm
       not talking about electrolyte replacement drinks; I'm talking about
       Ultra Energy, Exceed Nutritional Drink, Unipro Pro-Optimizer, etc.
    
       These drinks are thick - maybe not milk-shake viscosity - but thick
       enough to be troublesome for tiny nozzles in the best of circumstances
       (when well mixed).  When not quite fully mixed, they can clog the
       nozzle in a pedal stroke.
    
    -john
2391.54oh yuck.NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurWed Sep 09 1992 15:4912
    Here's a water bottle story.
    
    A freind finished a tough ride on a hot day and not being a
    "nutritional drink" type of person grabbed an unused water
    bottle and squirted it over his head.
    
    Well, I suppose you can use your imagination for the rest
    of the story.
    
    :-)
    
    ed
2391.55You wanted to know this...MOVIES::PAXTONMind my harp!Wed Sep 09 1992 16:0512
    Well, here's how I learned to make do with 1 water bottle...
    Whilst descending the Col du Soulor last week, I hit a well-concealed
    pothole at speed. My natural first reaction was "Oh ****, time to
    rebuild the wheels. Then I noticed that the rear bottle had made a
    bid for freedom by hopping from its cage and rolling off into the
    roadside vegetation. Where it probably still is to this day. The wheels
    were fine.
       So if anyone should find a Specialized Yosemite Walkbottle, which
    appears to be identical to any Specialized cycle bottle, half way up
    the eastern side of the Soulor, it's mine.
    
    ---Alan