Conference noted::bicycle

    
    You've asked very interesting questions ... I'm not the best one
    to answer, since I don't hike, but here are a few comments:
    
      - Intuitively I think they're right: on a bike, you must *balance* 
        the weight of what you carry , including on turns, and in addition
        that weight is resting on pneumatic tires and lightweight spoked
        wheels - not hiking boots and human physiognomy.
    
      - I have camped "light" on my camping tours - no cooking apparatus,
        etc., but a mummy tent (one person), down sleeping bag, and a 
        close cell foam mattress/groundcloth.  (I ended up staying with
        the close-cell foam one even after trying the kind you can squish
        up into a smaller shape, because the latter, though smaller, was
        heavier.)
    
      - Weight distribution and height above ground are important, of
        course - hence panniers (rear and front).  I don't do very well
        in that department - I use rear panniers, plus things strapped
        on top of them, and a handlebar pack.  But again, I'm camping
        "light".  (Note: the foam ground cloth - which weighs next to
        nothing - is what gets strapped on top, plus the sleeping bag.)
    
    Now let's here from some *real* experts...
    
    -john

    I don't think 10 lbs is such a big deal.  The big deal is how you
    balance it and where you put the kitchen sink.  If you can put it
    where you put a rear pannier and then balance the rest of the load,
    it won't be bad.  Put your clothing in some low riders.
    
    Oh, you weren't planning on 100 mi/day were you?
    
    ed

    Look, I think there might be a little hysteria here.  I *know* I weigh
    at least 40 pounds more than a reasonable fit cyclist my same size. 
    And I carry that 40 pounds a lot higher on the bicycle frame than
    panniers would.  Admittedly, it's live weight that I can shift around
    for balance at whim, but still, it's clear that a bicycle is able to
    carry me and my 'baggage' just fine.
    
    I concur that balance, and keeping weight low and distributed across
    the front and back of the bike is important.  I think a 'rule' that you
    need to keep weights less than half the bicycle weight are silly. 
    (Unless you plan on touring on a Varsity or something.)

I just picked up a tent for cycling about a month back.  After looking around I
decided on a 2 man Sierra Designs Clip Flashlite weighing in at 6 lbs.  I have a 
4 man Eureka backpacking tent that weighs 10 lbs that I considered too heavy for
cycling.  The more weight wasted on a tent the less weight available for other 
items.

I haven't used mine yet, but I have a few trips planned for this summer.

...Ed

I don't know about this rule of keeping the weight of your stuff less than the
weight of the bike either.  I did an extended, 5 week tour.  Pretty much self
contained, i.e. camping stuff, cooking stuff, clothes, a little food, camera, 
etc.  I'd guess I had 50 lbs of gear on my bike.  I had front panniers, rear
panniers, and a handlebar bag.  I strapped my sleeping bag and Thermarest on top
of my rear rack.  Mark carried the tent which was a 2 person Eureka! pup tent.
(Try living in one of THOSE for 5 weeks!).  He strapped that on top of his rear
rack along w/his sleeping bag and Thermarest.  He probably had more like 60 lbs
of stuff on his bike.

Once we got used to the feel of the bikes with the added cargo, the weight really
didn't seem to be an issue.  As long as the weight was reasonably balanced on 
each side of the bike we had no problems w/tippiness.  I can't imagine walking 
around several hours per day with 50 lbs on my back, so I'd think weight is MORE
of an issue for hikers.

One thing to keep in mind is what type of bike you're riding.  I was riding a 
bike designed for touring, i.e. it's handling wasn't twitchy, it had heavy duty
rims, etc.  I literally jumped off curbs onto cobblestone streets with all my
gear and never once got a flat, bent the rims, or broke a spoke.  Granted it 
wasn't the *smartest* thing to do!  

Sue

    Over 10 years ago, I bought a North Face Westwind two-person tent that
    weighs only 5.5 pounds.  It's a great tent, but I'm sure there are
    lighter ones on the market now.  
    
    I think front panniers make a lot of sense in balancing the weight.
    Also, I suggest riding a loaded bike a bit before touring with it,
    because it sure feels different.  But you get used to it very quickly!
    
    Patrick 

    There are a number of lightweight tents on the market.  Many of
    these have mosquito netting on top, then a rain fly over it.  I
    believe my Sierra Designs flashlight is under 4 lbs.  It is pretty
    inexpensive too.  It doesn't have all that much room however. 
    
    In terms of packs and racks, lowriders on the front are mandatory.
    On one tour, I packed my sleeping bag in one, the tent in the other.
    Then I used a rack pack.  Thus extra stuff hanging off the bike
    was held to a minimum.  
    
    Since most touring is in the summer, unless you are going through
    the rockies, you can also get by with a very light sleeping bag.
    My old EMS duck-down one is 19 years old now, weighs only 2.5 lbs.
    
    Have fun touring!
    
    steve

    I had a feeling the thoughts might be a bit different here...
    
    re .2:
    
    >Oh, you weren't planning on 100 mi/day were you?
    
    Perhaps half that or so.  But a day of 60 or 70 miles when you can take
    it easy and spend the day is a lot different than a day of pushing...
    
        re .4:
    
    >I decided on a 2 man Sierra Designs Clip Flashlite weighing in at 6
    >lbs.  I have a  4 man Eureka backpacking tent that weighs 10 lbs that I
    >considered too heavy for cycling.  The more weight wasted on a tent the
    >less weight available for other  items.

    This is a nice tent, but it has 2 problems for me.  I crawled into one
    and it felt really small.  I don't know how large you are but this tent
    seems like it would be too small for someone taller than 5'10" or so.
    Also, it isn't free-standing and I'd like a free-standing tent.
    
    re .5:
    
    >One thing to keep in mind is what type of bike you're riding.  I was
    >riding a  bike designed for touring, i.e. it's handling wasn't twitchy,
    >it had heavy duty rims, etc.  
    
    Not a problem.  I'm on a Cannondale ST600 which has full braze-ons for
    4-point mounted low-rider racks front-and rear, and cantilever brakes. 
    It also has the wheels I had built - Mavic MA-40 rims laced 4-cross
    using 14 ga. DT stainless spokes on Deore DX hubs.  
    
    re .6:
    
    >I think front panniers make a lot of sense in balancing the weight.
    >Also, I suggest riding a loaded bike a bit before touring with it,
    >because it sure feels different.  But you get used to it very quickly!
    
    I have front panniers but haven't used them yet.  This weekend I
    carried approximately 25 pounds of gear in the rear panniers and rack
    bag on the rear rack (camera equipment up high on the rack) for two
    days of riding and didn't notice any particular difference on uphills
    or downhills.  
    
    re .7:
    
    >There are a number of lightweight tents on the market.  Many of
    >these have mosquito netting on top, then a rain fly over it.  I
    >believe my Sierra Designs flashlight is under 4 lbs.  It is pretty
    >inexpensive too.  It doesn't have all that much room however. 
    
    I found that the Clip-3 had enough room for me alone but I wouldn't
    want anyone else in there with me!  It is light though at 4lb 14oz.  It
    also isn't self-standing but I may have to live with that!
    
    
    Elaborating on my original thoughts...  I've tried at least 20
    different tents (Eureka, SD, TNF, Moss) by crawling in and feeling the
    room.  The problem is that at 6'3" and 240-250 pounds I'm not small
    enough for most of the "2-person" tents.  They simply aren't long
    enough.  I don't think its good for me to have my feet firmly pressed
    against one end of the tent and my head wedged against the other.  Most
    hex dome tents measure distances from the widest POINTS rather than
    wall-to-wall.  A 7'6" hex dome can be under 6' where 2 sleeping bags
    actually sit side-by-side - especially since mine is 88 X 39" (I rip
    the feet out of shorter ones) people actually sleep.  In addition I am
    NOT a calm sleeper.  I once opened a new door in a tent that was too
    short (braced against both ends of the tent and something had to give)
    and never woke up until I got cold OUTSIDE the tent.  
    
    When I add in my wife it gets even more difficult.  So, I would like to
    comfortably hold 2 people, have enough room for some gear, room to sit
    up, and not go nuts in a 2-day rain!  So far the best I've been able to
    do for something that looks like it'll do is the EMS Isolation Hut at 
    8lb 4 oz.  Maybe I'll rent an S.D. Clip 3 for the weekend and see how
    comfortable a small tent is.

Hmmm... one tent you might want to try out is the Eureka Expedition.  At least
that's what I think it's called.  Mark and I bought it AFTER our Germany tour and
we use it for a week at a time on the Cape and up in Maine.  It's a dome tent
that I think is supposedly for 2.5 people (really, that's what it says).  It's
very roomy, both Mark and I can sit up easily.  Being a dome, it's comfortably
wide (unlike a pup tent), so you can spread out a little and keep extra clothes
and things in there with you.  The fly also has a really cool vestibule that you
can stash your panniers in.  The best thing is that it's also really long.  Mark
is 6'4" and stretches out no problem.  His feet and head don't touch either end.

Before we bought this tent we bought a Sierra Designs tent at LL Beans.  Mark
seam sealed it and we took it up to Acadia National Park.  One night it poured 
and the tent leaked like a sieve.  What a miserable night!  The next day we took
the tent down (losing one of the poles for the vestibule), and brought the thing
back to LL Beans, still dripping wet.  We returned it with no receipt and got our
money back.  The next week Mark bought the Eureka Expedition and we've been very
happy with it.  It's made it through some major thunder storms without any leaks.

Sue

When I rode across the country about 10 years ago, I carried a semi-dome which
weighed about 7 pounds. It was roomy enough, I could sit up, and it fit two
average height people well, or one person with all the gear. Sounds like you
need one a little bigger, probably a full dome weighing about 10 pounds.

My point is that it would be worth carrying some extra weight to give you
the comfort you need in a tent. When you spend weeks upon months on the
road and you ride better than 50 miles a day with fully loaded panniers
it is worth carrying a little extra weight for the added comfort. When
you hit many days in a row with rain you appreciate the room. And after
a couple of weeks of riding fully loaded you won't even notice the extra
couple of pounds.

Harry

I have a Sierra Designs Meteor Light that I've used for
about five years now.  It is definitely a three-season
tent, with netting over most of the inside roof.  It is
great for those warm, cloudless nights when you can
leave the rainfly off.

It has 40 sq ft (5x8) of space, fairly vertical walls,
and stands about 4' at center.  It is free-standing (a
big plus), and weighs in just under 6 pounds.  I
have weathered some reasonably large rainstorms with no
leakage (with a ground cloth and sealed seams).

There is a small vestibule which makes a great place to
keep muiddy boots and smelly socks.

I really only have two minor complaints:

The ventilation could be slightly better (it saw a lot
of use during Texas summers), but it is still better
than a lot of tents.

It only has one side door, so crawling out in the middle
of the night can be tough for the inside (and outside)
person.

Kelty makes a very similar tent which addresses these
problems, but costs about $150 more.

FWIW,

Bill

When I did my bike tour I tried to be really good about NOT bringing 
non-essential items.  I really pared things down to the minimum.  But if I had it
all to do over again, there is one non-essential that I would *definitely* bring:


			a pillow.


I tell ya, night after night of plopping your head down on a rolled-up pair of 
dirty jeans (yuck!) or bunched up, semi-damp towel is no fun!  Especially after 
a tiring day on the bike.  

I saw a bin of small camping pillows at LL Beans once.  They were nice and soft
and looked like they could be smooshed into a small ball.  If I go bike touring
again I will most definitely pick one of those up.

Sue

re .9:
    
    >Hmmm... one tent you might want to try out is the Eureka Expedition. 
    >At least that's what I think it's called.   
    
    Could be.  There are a couple different Eureka Expedition tents.  One
    is a rectangular, three-person dome about 6X9 but it weighs in at 10lb
    7 oz.  The smaller one is lighter but is the size of many of the small
    2-person domes.  From the Campmor book, it looks like for their size,
    all the Expedition tents are pretty heavy.
    
    re .10:
    
    >I carried a semi-dome which weighed about 7 pounds. It was roomy
    >enough, I could sit up, and it fit two average height people well, or
    >one person with all the gear. Sounds like you need one a little bigger,
    >probably a full dome weighing about 10 pounds.

    >My point is that it would be worth carrying some extra weight to give
    >you the comfort you need in a tent. 
    
    Yeah, I think so too...  Fortunately I can get one of several that
    weight in at around 8 pounds and have lots of room.
    
    re .11:
    
    >I have a Sierra Designs Meteor Light that I've used for about five
    >years now.  It is definitely a three-season tent, with netting over
    >most of the inside roof.  It is great for those warm, cloudless nights
    >when you can leave the rainfly off.

    Nice tent.  Very light at under 6 lb.  Good for me alone, but too small
    for more than one person.

    re .12:
    
    >there is one non-essential that I would *definitely* bring:
    >
    >			a pillow.

    Amen.  I once spent a weekend resting my head on rolled up junk...  It
    was slightly more comfortable than using a rock - BUT NOT MUCH!

    I'll remember a pillow of some kind.  And a pad of some kind too.

    RE: .10 I concur.
    
    A few non-related points:
    
    Weight of gear should not exceed weight of bike.  Hogwash.  I toured
    7 weeks on a 24 lb bike with 35 lbs of gear.  1 1/8" rims, 15 gauge
    spokes - no problems.
    
    Remember this about gear:  The more you carry the slower you go and
    the shorter your mileage.  If centuries are a breeze for you, and then
    you throw 30 lbs of gear on your bike don't expect to go 100 miles.
    You have to down shift a couple of gears and just accept the time hit.
    
    Weight disribution: side to side is critical - not much more to say
    here.  Front to back:  put 1/4 - 1/3 of the weight up front.  It slows
    down your turning but after a while you get used to it.  Also, with
    35 lbs on your bike you should be making quick turns.
    One last fact, water weighs 8 lbs/gallon.  The difference between
    a 6 lb tent and a 8 lb tent is a quart of water.
    
    
    				-David
    

    
       I have a North Face Tadpole that sounds similar to the tent in .11.  
    The Tadpole weighs in at 4lb, and would be a little tight for 2 (I'm
    6'), however North Face make a larger version of the same design, which
    I believe is called the Bullfrog.
       The Tadpole is a freestanding tent with mesh sides and ceiling.  The 
    flysheet needs an extra 2 pegs at the front to form a small vestibule.
    The upper tent is very waterproof, however the bottom of my mat is
    usually damp when I pack it away in the morning.  I plan to 'proof the
    bottom when I have time, but it hasn't been a great concern yet.  There
    are warnings on the tent that it is made of lightweight materials, and
    as a consequence should not be used as a "basecamp".   Dirt and grit
    should be wiped out after every use.  The Bullfrog may be made of
    sturdier stuff. 
    
     Mike
    

    Since I just received the latest CAMPMOR catalog, heres some specs on
    tents under 10lbs or so...
    
    Tent Model				 W  x  L  x  H		Weight
    ---------------------------------	---------------	       ----------	
    Eureka Timberline Deluxe 2 person	5'0 x 8'0 x 3'6		7lbs 12oz
    Eureka Timberline Deluxe 4 person	7'2 x 8'9 x 4'10       10lbs  2oz
    Eureka Alpine Meadows 2 person	5'3 x 8'9 x 4'0      	7lbs 11oz
    Eureka Alpine Meadows 4 person	7'2 x 8'9 x 5'0        10lbs  5oz
    Eureka Prism 2 person		5'0 x 7'6 x 3'9		6lbs  3oz
    Eureka Tetragon 3 person		7'0 x 7'0 x 4'4		8lbs  3oz
    Eureka Stony Brook 4 person		7'6 x 7'6 x 4'10       	9lbs  9oz
    Eureka Clip Cirrus 2 person		4'9 x 7'4 x 3'9		4lbs  0oz
    Eureka Clip Cirrus 3 person		6'5 x 8'6 x 4'6		6lbs  3oz
    Eureka Rising Sun 2 person		4'2 x 7'0 x 3'3		4lbs  2oz
    Eureka Clip Timberlite 2 person 	4'6 x 7'8 x 3'2		4lbs 11oz
    Eureka Gossamer 1 person		21 sq ft  x 2'2		2lbs 14oz
    Eureka Clip Dome 2 person		7'0 x 8'0 x 4'4		7lbs  9oz
    Eureka Clip Domalum 2 person        7'0 x 8'0 x 4'4      	6lbs  8oz
    Eureka Clip Dome 4 person		8'6 x 9'4 x 5'0	       10lbs  0oz
    Eureka Geoalum 2 person 		6'8 x 8'2 x 4'0	   	7lbs  4oz
    Eureka Traverse 2 person		5'0 x 7'6 x 3'5		7lbs 11oz
    Eureka Traverse 3 person   		6'4 x 8'10x 4'2        10lbs  7oz
    Eureka Denli 2 person		6'8 x 8'0 x 3'11      	9lbs 13oz
    Eureka Sentinel 2 person		6'0 x 8'0 x 3'10	9lbs  0oz
    Eureka Sentinel 4 person		8'0 x 8'10x 4'2        11lbs  7oz
    Eureka Geom EX-3 3 person		7'6 x 9'0 x 4'0		9lbs  3oz
    
    Serria Trios 2 person		4'10x 7'7 x 3'5		6lbs 15oz
    Serria Stretch Dome 3 person	6'8 x 7'8 x 4'3		7lbs 11oz
    Serria Stretch Prelude 4 person	8'5 x 7'10x 4'2		9lbs 15oz
    Serria Clear Light 2 person		5'0 x 8'0 x 3'10	5lbs  5oz
    Serria Meteor Light 2 person	5'0 x 8'0 x 3'10	5lbs 12oz
    Serria Half Moon 2 person		4'4 x 7'5 x 3'7		4lbs  6oz
    Serria Comet 3 person		6'2 x 8'0 x 4'5		6lbs 15oz
    Serria Sphinx 2 person		7'4 x 3'9 x 3'6		4lbs 14oz
    Serria Sphinx 3 person 		8'0 x 6'3 x 3'6		6lbs  8oz
    Serria Flashlite 2 person		4'11x 7'5 x 3'7		3lbs 13oz
    Serria Flashlite 3 person		6'8 x 7'6 x 3'11	4lbs 14oz
    Serria Flash Magic 2 person		4'11x 7'5 x 3'7		2lbs 15oz
    Serria Super Flash 2 person		4'10x 8'0 x 3'9		5lbs  5oz
    Serria Night Watch 2 person 	5'6 x 7'9 x 3'7		5lbs 12oz
    Serria Look Out 3 person		6'3 x 8'0 x 4'2		6lbs 10oz
    
    North Face Firefly 2 person		8'4 x 4'10x 3'9		5lbs 10oz
    North Face Tadpole 2 person		7'3 x 4'3 x ?		4lbs  0oz
    North Face Bigfrog 3 person		8'4 x 6'3 x ?		6lbs  9oz
    North Face Mayfly 1 person		8'5 x 3'4 x 2'6		3lbs  4oz
    North Face Aerohead 2 person	5'0 x 8'4 x 3'7		6lbs 13oz
    North Face VE25 3 person		8'8 x 7'0 x 4'1	       10lbs  0oz
    North Face Oval-25 2 person		9'7 x 5'7 x 3'4		7lbs 10oz
    
    Enjoy,
    
    ...Ed
    

    re .15:
    
    >One last fact, water weighs 8 lbs/gallon.  The difference between
    >a 6 lb tent and a 8 lb tent is a quart of water.
    
    Excellent point.  I hadn't looked at it that way.  
    
    re .16:
    
>    I have a North Face Tadpole that sounds similar to the tent in .11.  
>    The Tadpole weighs in at 4lb, and would be a little tight for 2 (I'm
>    6'), however North Face make a larger version of the same design, which
>    I believe is called the Bullfrog.
    
    I have only seen the Bullfrog in North Face literature.  I haven't been
    able to find one in any of the local places or even the Campmor
    catalog.  Does anyone have any experience with one?
    
    re .17:
    
    >Since I just received the latest CAMPMOR catalog, heres some specs on
    >tents under 10lbs or so...
    
    I'm going to have to look at my new Campmor catalog.  Some of the
    numbers you have here differ quite a bit from what I got from EMS or
    REI.  Did Eureka change some of their tent dimensions for this year?
    For example the Alpine Meadows numbers I have are 7'2"L X 5'3"W X
    3'6"H...  and weighed in at 8lb 2oz.  
    
    Tent Model				 W  x  L  x  H		Weight
    ---------------------------------	---------------	       ----------	
    Eureka Alpine Meadows 2 person	5'3 x 8'9 x 4'0      	7lbs 11oz
    
    I spent some time last evening at the library going through back issues
    of Backpacker magazine to see whast they had to say about tents... 
    They naturally like Moss, North Face, Sierra Designs.  Very little
    about Eureka but they did try a Cirrus 3 and liked it even though it
    required staking.  
    
    I'm hoping to rent something and try it Memorial Day weekend 'cause I
    definitely don't want to be trying something totally unknown for the
    3 day ride the following weekend.

    Well, I took the advice in here and opted for lightness rather than
    size for the ride in note 2262.  I tried both the EMS tent and a Meteor
    Light clone from Quest (5 X 8 rectangular with only 2 poles).  It
    doesn't have the vertical walls of the Meteor Light but actual weight
    is slightly less.  And it uses a nifty center plate/clip design for
    assemby.
    
    Once I carried both around and set them up it was easy to pick the
    Quest at 6 lb 4 oz in a very small package rather than the EMS tent at
    8lb 4 oz in a much larger package.
    
    I used the tent for 3 days and found it to have plenty of room for me
    and my gear.  Thanks for the advice...  good as always!