Conference noted::bicycle

    First the bad news:
    
    I have seen a quote of $625 for doing that but it included the
    dual pivot brake levers.
    
    Now, more bad news:
    
    You need a hub that will take an 8 speed cassette and they aren't
    compatible with your 7 speed hub.
    
    BUT, not so bad news:
    
    If you get an 8 speed rear wheel built ($100, more or less, depending
    on the rim and spokes and who does it) your rear deraileur will
    probably work (recent model?)
    
    if you want the 8 spd downtube shifters, you might get them
    for $60 or less..
    
    Then you need some cogs,  maybe another $50.
    
    BUT:
    
    You rear dropouts are 126 mm and you will need 130mm.  Some guys would
    just force 'em, some whould get the rear triangle reset.  I'd recommend
    the latter ($50-100) but the cheap solution might work -- and it might
    cause early fatigue in the frame, let me know [:-)].
    
    ed

    	There is one other possibility...
    
    	If you check the latest Nashbar or Performance catalogs, such as
    	page 47 of the Performance bicycle catalog, you'll see that there
    	is such a thing as an "eight-speed" freewheel.
    
    	The company is Sachs-Maillard Aris, and I believe as of March 1992,
    	they are the only company producing an eight-speed freewheel.
    
    	These freewheels are purported to be compatible with Shimano's and
    	Campagnolo's indexed derailleur systems, road or MTB.
    
    	These puppies are made in France, but I believe the hub threading
    	is English.
    
    	If your current shifters are only seven-speed, you will have to
    	upgrade those. But I would wonder about your derailleur. Would you
    	need to replace it? I don't know. I do know that the "levers" are
    	actually controlling the indexing function, the derailleur itself
    	is merely a free-floating mechanism, no indexing involved. So...
    	A good question would be, does the original derailleur have enough
    	"throw" capability to handle the eight-speed setup.
    
    	Other more experienced users of these indexing systems would be
    	able to answer that.
    						Happy indexing...

    You still need a hub to fit the 8-spd freewheel, and it's not safe
    to just add spacers to the axle on a regular 7-spd hub.  The 
    extra leverage on the freewheel side of an 8-spd hub is too much for 
    normal diameter axles to take without the risk of snapping.  
    
    Three rear hubs that *are* built to take this stress are American
    Classic, Mavic, and Phil Wood (listed in order of strength, weakest to
    strongest).  They all have significantly wider axles than the norm, 
    "tapered" as follows to fit a rear dropout:
    
    	_______
    main       |___
    axle       ____ fits dropout (same diameter as normal axle)
    	_______|
    	       
    I am currently riding Mavic with Regina 8-spd, with Shimano STI,
    which is more finicky than downtube shifters, and I'm having no
    problems, except for more frequent adjustment.
    
    Any of these hubs you can buy rear hub only, for prices ranging
    from $65 to $90.  The least expensive 8-spd cluster I've seen
    is a Maillard for $33.  Then you need spokes, and someone to
    build the wheel.  Throw in another $50 if you want it done right.
    
    Finally, *if* the 105 rear derailleur has enough range to cover
    8 speeds (roughly 3-4mm more than 7-spd), you might be able to get away
    with using Ultegra 8-spd shift levers (another $50).
    
    I think you're going to have to go over $200.
    
    Justin

    	Justin,
    
    	   I believe that the spacing on the Sachs-Maillard freewheel
    	is equivalent to a "normal" 7-speed, not the "narrow" seven.
    
    	As in the Suntour Winner "Ultra" 7-speed freewheels are the same
    	width as a "normal" 6-speed freewheel, and so on. (I own two older
    	Suntour winner 6-speed freewheels, and they fit on any "older"
    	5-speed axle.)
    
    	I don't really know, because I've never actually seen any of
    	these new Sachs-Maillard Aris systems.
    
    	I would love to get my hands on one of those 8-speed freewheels
    	though.
    
    	BTW, sell your C-record hubs yet?
    
    							Regards, Patrick

    The Aris 7's are compatible with the Dura-Ace 7's so I would
    call them "Normal".
    
    ed

    	Hmmm...
    
    	So, the $64,000 question would be, is the Aris 8-speed the same
    	width as a "normal" 7-speed (As opposed to an "Ultra" 7-speed)?
    
    	There is a new chain for these pups...
    	Following is the scoop on the new Sachs/Sedisport SL chain:
    
    	Designed to work with the new 8-speed freewheels, the SL is .4 mm
    	narrower than Sedisport, with chamfered heat-treated outer plates
    	for improved shifting on Ultra and standard spaced freewheels.
    	Color: Silver. Weight: 310 gms. $27.95
    
    	So, is the new Aris freewheel an "Ultra" 8-speed, or a standard 8?

    I may be wrong, however I highly doubt that any 8 speed shifting
    arrangement is the old "normal" spacing.  What Shimano and the others
    have done has taken the narrow 7 speed cluster and widen the rear end
    another 5 mm to accomodate for the 8th cog. 
    
    Personally, if it was me and this was not designed to be a racing bike,
    especially in Vt, I would change to a triple.
    
    What is the real purpose of going from 7 to 8, lower gears or closer
    ratio between shifts.
    
    steve

    Yes, the hubs are sold.
    
    There seems to be some confusion of a normal 6-spd with a normal 7-spd.
    A normal 6-spd has the traditional spacing and requires 126mm between
    dropouts.  A narrow 6-spd fits in dropouts spaced at 120mm.  Shimano's
    first SIS shift systems and cassette hubs were normal 6-spds.
    
    7-spds (designed to fit between dropouts that are 126mm apart) all 
    have what is referred to as "narrow" spacing (similar to spacing on 
    an Ultra-6), be they Regina, Maillard, or Suntour clusters, or Campy,
    Shimano, or Suntour cassettes, to name a few.  If you doubt this,
    try a traditional width chain (if you can find one) on a 7-spd ;-).
    
    8-spds supposedly are even more narrowly spaced than 7-spds, although
    my experience with STI suggests that for all practical purposes, this
    is not the case.  If you want to know how fat an 8-spd cluster is, just
    imagine another cog on top of your existing 7-spd.

    	Justin,
    
    	Glad to hear you've sold your hubs finally!
    
    	Guess what, I own two different types of freewheel clusters.
    	There is a difference between "Ultra" and "Standard".
    
    	I own three Suntour Winner 6-speed frewheels. Two are of the
    	"Ultra" variety, one is a "Standard" Winner freewheel.
    
    	The cog spacing on the Ultra freewheels is decidedly narrow, as
    	compared to the regular Winner freewheel. I would venture to say
    	that there IS a difference in spacing between Ultra & Standard.
    
    	Would it be safe to say:
    	-----------------------
    	Ultra 6-speed spacing = Standard 5-speed
    	Ultra 7-speed spacing = Standard 6-speed
    	Ultra 8-speed spacing = Standard 7-speed (Suntour ain't got it!)
    
    	But, I could be wrong. Do you have any older Winner freewheels
    	laying around? Check into it, I'd like to know if I'm slowly
    	losing my sanity as I get older. I mean, I'm riding a Claud Butler
    	that originally came with a 5-speed Regina on a set of Campagnolo
    	Gran Sport hubs. Archaic? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

    re. 9 I don't believe there is anything marketed as standard 7 spacing,
    7 speed only comes in the narrow version.
    
    If others know better, please let me know.
    
    steve

    re: .8
    
    > A narrow 6-spd fits in dropouts spaced at 120mm.  [...]
    > 7-spds (designed to fit between dropouts that are 126mm apart) all
    > have what is referred to as "narrow" spacing (similar to spacing on
    > an Ultra-6), be they Regina, Maillard, or Suntour clusters, or
    > Campy, Shimano, or Suntour cassettes, to name a few. 
    
    I haven't measured, but my wife's bike (dating from about 1980) has
    six speeds, so I assume it has 120 mm spacing on the dropouts and
    narrow spacing on the cogs (e.g., Ultra-6).  Does this mean that I
    could buy shifters and rear derailleur intended for indexed 7-speed
    shifting and use them on this bike (using the limit screws on the
    derailleur to prevent attempts to engage the nonexistent 7th cog)?  If
    I could replace the cluster, chain, derailleur, and shifters to get
    indexed shifting for her, I might consider it.  Replacing the rear hub
    and wheel and spreading the frame is more than I want to take on (might
    be better to get a new bike at that point).
    
    Finding a six-speed cluster that liked indexed shifting might be a
    problem...
    
    Andy

    .11:  I think your assumptions are incorrect.  Measure it, read the
    labels, then you only have to go back to the bike shop
    once or twice.
    
    ed

    
    RE: .11   Ummm... just a question, but why would you want to go
    to all that trouble to get six-speed indexed and still have six 
    speeds?  Is your wife crying out for indexed?
    
    -john "mr. friction" ellis  :-) :-)

    	Regarding base note #2256
    	Well Kevin, judging from the valued input gathered from our
    	consultants here, your original 105 cogset is most likely an
    	"Ultra" 7-speed. (Standard spacing highly improbable)
    
    	Whichever path you choose, either cassette-freehub, OR threaded
    	hub ("outdated" version), you will most likely be required to
    	replace your rear hub for the 8-speed conversion. Too bad really,
    	the simplicity of merely replacing your freewheel and your levers
    	sounded too good to be true. And indeed, it most likely is...
    
    	John "Mr. Friction" Ellis, you'd like my old Raleigh Professional,
    	NO indexing, NO aero cable routing, NO clipless pedals, only hand-
    	crafted beauty, and ALL of it original equipment Campagnolo.
    
    						Regards, Patrick

    re: .11 
    There is a good chance that she has regular 6 width, which means all
    that needs to be done is to replace the freewheel with a new 7 speed
    freewheel. You may need to add one real thin spacer on the freewheel
    side to insure the smallest cog/chain doesn't rub.   If it is 120mm
    spacing, you can still save your hub.  Just buy a new axle and spacing
    to 125/126mm.  If it is a low priced bike, it is probably not worth
    cold setting the frame to the new width.  
    
    steve

    re: .13 - 
    > why would you want to go
    > to all that trouble to get six-speed indexed and still have six
    > speeds?
    
    She doesn't care how many speeds it has as long as it has a low enough
    gear to permit easy hill climbing.  But the stock setup overshifts
    badly and the shifters are on the downtube; she prefers a more upright
    position.  Otherwise, she likes the bike well enough.  I just
    bought a new (indexed) bike myself, and I'm sure she'd enjoy indexed
    shifting as much as I do, esp. if the shifters were on the handlebar.
    
    Yes, I know - it would be easier to get a hybrid...  In any case, I'll
    apply the calipers liberally before doing anything rash.
    
    Andy

    
    Last night a bike-expert friend said some things I did not know
    about cassettes, though most of our esteemed readership may:
    
      o  In his opinion, the biggest advantage of cassettes over
         freewheels is that the RH bearings can be more outboard,
         which is a more robust design (less stress).  I believe
         Ed Fisher already mentioned this.
    
      o  Another possible advantage of cassettes is the inner cog
         can be a *little* closer in (to hub flange) than with a
         freewheel, meaning you could dish the wheel a *little* less
         (again, more robust).
    
      o  You *can* replace the cassette without rebuilding the wheel.
         (I did not know this.)  Maybe not at home, but a bike shop can.
    
    On 8-speeds:
    
      o  People in his purview are reporting more spoke-breakage
         with 8-speed - probably, he thinks, because of the dishing.
    
    I may relocate this reply to the Cassette note, but for now here
    it is...
    
    -john (mr. friction)

    
    RE: .16
    
    Andy, a colleague who recently got into biking started out with
    a hybrid, and loves the upright position.  So far, so good.  He
    has now graduated up to moderate-length (20-30 mile) club rides,
    and an RB-2.  As for many other cyclists, the MTB-style handlebars
    become pretty uncomfortable on the wrists, etc., as length of ride
    increases.  
    
    So going for an MTB-style bar may be "trading a headache for an upset 
    stomach."  How long at a time does she plan to spend on the bike?
    Of course *some people* might suggest the following answer to get
    handlebar shifting but keep drop-bars: STI/Ergopower!  Yes!
    
    -john :-)

Think about what you are going to get out of the 8-speed, especially when you
are talking about having enough low gears.  I had enough trouble getting a
7-speed with a 15 top, I think the 8-speed is most likely to offer either a 12(!)
or 13 top as an extra.  Is it really worth it?  You may even have to shell out
for a load of smaller chainrings to get something usable.

    (Way off the subject alert!)
    
    re .18
    
    I was beginning to have real wrist problems as I started pushing the
    mileage on my Trek 7900 hybrid up to the 50 mile range.  I found I was
    trying all sorts of unusual hand positions, and finally put a set of
    bar ends on the flat bars.  They provide a couple more hand positions,
    including one really stretched out.  The downside is that it's hard to
    reach the brake levers (although I am trying to track down a Dr. Dew)
    and the ironic part is that the brake levers are in precisely the
    location that the old 'idiot levers' were back when dropped bars on
    cheap 10 speeds were thought to put the brake levers too far out of
    reach for 'normal' upright riding.
    As it sits now, I suspect that the current configuration will be just
    fine for touring and moderate-speed rides.  We have a *lot* of
    single-track (er, dirt roads) down here in the Lone Star state.

    Thanks for all the replys!
    
    The idea of going from 7 to 8 speeds was just a meandering thought I
    had.  I don't mind the gearing on the Giant (53/39 13-23).  I felt that
    having an additional gear may help on those up hills that seem to be in
    between the gears or on those down hills where 53/13 is not good
    enough.
    
    From the sounds of everything, this modification will be a bit pricey. 
    I was wonding if I could get away with this under $100 - $150....since
    that may not be true, I will have to ponder this idea.
    
    A few back asked what kind of bike.  I have a '91 Giant 980C Cadex Racing
    Bike.  Although I have never raced (I started riding late last summer), 
    I would like to do a few causal races this summer.  I spent a good share 
    of this past winter in the gym, now all I need is the milage.....
    
    Kevin.
    

    You can probably stop even considering the idea.  You do not want
    to spread the rear-end of a carbon or aluminum frame.  I still suggest
    measuring the distance between the dropouts, perhaps it is 8 speed
    compatible.  
    
    You should consider building another wheel, putting a 12/26 7 speed on
    it.  Should cost you a lot less.
    
    steve

Speaking of spread rear-ends, I've just acquired a Raleigh frame which
announced itself as having 130mm rear width, which worried me since I have
a 126mm wheel I want to use with it. I was going to convert the wheel to 130mm
by using an 8-speed rear axle and a few washers to space the locknuts out.

Last night, just for fun, I took a ruler across the dropouts of the new frame
and guess what? The measurement was 128mm...

I wonder if this is deliberate on the part of Raleigh. 128mm will probably
accomodate 126mm or 130mm with no problem. I suspect my 8-speed axle will
not be needed.


Rod


PS The frame has TITANIUM main tubes! Move over Chip!

Reply .8 seems accurate and I can add that I recently read somewhere that 
cassette cog spacing on Shimano systems was indeed reduced from something like
3.2 mm (7 spd) to 3.0 mm (8 spd) but that the intentional lateral
tolerance (slop) incorporated into the top jockey pulley of Shimano rear
derailleurs can accomodate that amount of inaccuracy in the indexing of 
the shifters.  If you center the shifting adjustment on the middle cog, then 
the amount of slop in the jockey  pulley is at least [7 x (0.2)]/2 = +/- 0.7 mm 
to each side.....hm.   Should be easy to measure.

Along those same lines I upgraded a modern cheap bike with no-name 
friction shifting to indexing after noticing that the bike came with a Shimano 
5-speed freewheel with the twisty cogs just like Dura-Ace.   
I installed a Shimano 105 7-sp derailleur and shifters and found that
they indexed just fine.   I fully expected that I would have to install 
the shifter 6-speed converter doohickey that changes the amount of 
shifter-cable-pull-per-click from stock (7-speed spacing) to 
that of Shimano 6-speed, assuming that Shimano 5-speed was spaced the 
same as Shimano 6-speed.   Finding that it wasn't necessary
is once again evidence that the jockey pulley slop 
obviates the need for complete shifter accuracy in some cases.   

As for the range of 7-speed rear derailleurs, a friend of mine notes that
a 7-spd Ultegra rear derailleur handles an 8-speed Shimano cassette in 
dandy fashion after changing to 8-speed Ultegra shifters.

    I believe, although not sure, that Dura-Ace 8 speed configurations have
    a spacing of 2.9mm.  Ultegra, XT, and XTR have 3.0mm, both 7 speed and
    8 speed.  This is according to Hugi manual I just received.
    
    steve
    

    Well, it's been a while since there's been any activity in this note,
    but I just wanted to share my successful experience in upgrading my
    road bike's 7 spd drivetrain to 8 spd.

    I bought a Schwinn Paramount Series 3 road bike back in 1990.  It has
    an oversized chromoly tubeset outfitted with the Shimano RX100 7 speed
    index shifting group (downtube shifters).  Last spring, I trashed my el
    cheapo rear rim on a good-sized, New England pothole and ordered a
    better wheelset from my local shop.  I wanted Ultegra hubs with Mavic
    Open4CD rims and DT doubled-butted spokes.  When I picked them up, I
    found out that the hub was 8 speed, and not 7 speed.  Not really the
    shop's fault - I forgot to mention that I had a 7 speed setup.  "No
    problem" says the owner - "I'll just give you this washer to slide over
    the cassette body before you put the cogs on and you'll be fine."

    At first, I was a little worried about getting the wheel to fit between
    the 126 mm dropouts, but I just spread them out a bit, gave the
    rear wheel an extra nudge, and it slid right into place.  I also
    replaced the Shimano chain with a Sedis Sport ATB and the drivetrain
    performed flawlessly all year (2500 miles).

    Naturally, when spring rolled around this year, I decided to replace my
    7 speed cogset with an 8 speed, since I had an 8 speed hub.  So, I
    bought a used set of Ultegra 8 spd down-tube shifters from a fellow
    noter and installed them with a new 8 spd cluster (13-23).  I was able
    to keep my RX100 rear derailler in place and it's been working fine.

    Next spring, I plan to upgrade even further to the Ultegra STI levers.

    Just an FYI for others who might be considering converting their steel
    road bike from 7 to 8 spd.

    PS - I wouldn't want to try this on an AL or carbon fiber frame.

    re: al and carbon fiber.
    
    It works on them too.  :-)
    
    ed

    ... and Ti! (i know).
    
        Chip

>    re: al and carbon fiber.
>    
>    It works on them too.  :-)
    
Oh yea, I'm sure 8 spd works on these materials as well, my point is that
I've heard that spreading the dropouts from 126mm to the required 130mm isn't
recommended for AL and carbon fiber because these materials have different
properties than steel.  Other extremists also recommend cold-setting the steel
before making the conversion from 7 to 8 spd.

-Buddy

    yes, I cold set 2 of my steel bikes when I converted them, didn't cold
    set the other one.  The Al and CF bikes that were converted have each
    logged 1000's of miles since the "conversion."  I also know of 1 dealer
    who has converted these bikes and is not worried about them.
    
    ed

I just upgraded a ~1991 TREK2100 (carbon-fiber) from 7 speed 105 to 8 speed STI Dura-Ace. 
Actually I had the work done by a local independent repair guy.

Anyway, although he adjusted all components of the drivetrain according to Shimano's specs,
it's a little sloppy shifting.  It seems like when shifting from a smaller rear cog to
larger ones that I have to engage the shifter to the first click PLUS some extra movement. 
It's almost like having to trim each shift.  If we adjust the barrel adjustment to improve
it, then upshifts become sloppy.  I have yet to find a happy medium where all shifts are
clean.

He mentioned that because the frame & chain line were built for 7 speed, maybe the broader
spread of 8 speed is creating the problem.  Another point you should know is that I'm
running 53-39 & 13-26.  I also don't cross-chain (53-26, or 39-13).

He's willing to help try to help adjust it but he lives 30 miles away & I should be able to
handle it.

Any ideas?  Thanks!

Ray

If you had to spread the rear triangle to get the new hub to fit, then it's
possible that the derailleur hanger isn't parallel to the plane of the cogs.

I have a frame that is spaced for 8 speed, but I'm running a 7 speed wheel in
it.  Originally the wheel was spaced at 126, and the quick release pulled it all
together tight.  Shifting was a bit sloppy though.  When I got some spacers and
set the wheel up such that I no longer had to compress the rear triangle
shifting improved.

I have an old mountain bike that I spread from 122 to 126, but didn't re-align
the derailleur hanger - shifting is sloppy.

Rich

>>>If you had to spread the rear triangle to get the new hub to fit, then it's
possible that the derailleur hanger isn't parallel to the plane of the cogs.

Is there a way to fix this?

    i vote with the previous noter on the spacers. that should solve the
    problem. imho, any derrailleur to frame alignment problems would not
    be the rule, but an exception.
    
    Chip

re .34

Take it to a good shop and ask for them to check the alignment.  Of course they
may not want to touch the thing since "cold-setting" carbon fiber (most likely
with aluminum dropouts) isn't recommended.

Rich

    I have a circa 1989 Kestrel, and put a 8 speed width wheel in last year
    with no problem.   
    
    steve

What year is your 2100?  I believe that they were all spaced for 8 speed.

We recently had this problem on my wife's Bridgestone RB1-8 with Ultegra.
I had just put on a new chain, cogset and sti shifters.  When done I could
only get it to shift cleanly in one direction.  The problem would happen on 
the smallest cogs for the most part.  As I have a dropout alignment guage and 
a derailleur alignment guage I knew that those items were OK.

I did find out that there was some play in the freehub but swaping that out 
with a new wheel made no difference.  Likewise using my spare rear derailleur 
and swaping shifters had no effect.

What I finally ended up doing was having her ride it for awhile and then 
everything was fine.  Just needed a little break in period.

Now as I recall for DuraAce the spacing is different than other 8 speeds.  So
you should be using an DuraAce casette and a narrow chain as well.

Scott

    I hate to admit it, but I have a Dura Ace spacer on my Campy set-up.
    Eeeeeyuk!
    
     Chip

    1990 & 1991 2100's, 2300's were 7 speed.
    
    ed

The question is were they spaced for 8 speed even though they came with
7 speed?

Even though the whole rear triangle on those bikes is AL and should have no
problems being widened to accept an 8 speed hub.

Scott

The 8 spd. hub fits relatively easy (minor coaxing required).

I'll look at the derailler hanger position this weekend.

Thanks for all of the input.
Ray

    the 7 spd treks had 126 mm spacing (7 spd).
    
    ed