Conference noted::bicycle

    
    Part of perceived comfort/discomfort is just what you get used to.
    
    However ... can you describe in which ways you are less comfortable
    with the lower saddle height?  Knee soreness?  Lower back?  Other?
    
    The problems you'd get with too high a saddle would be things like
    pelvic-area (sit-bone) soreness, ankles perhaps.  If you did not
    experience these with the higher saddle *and* did not rock side-to-side
    when pedalling, it's probably not too high.
    
    How long (hours, miles) were your rides during the season?
    What speed, roughly?  (I'm trying to assess how much you were pushing,
    and how long you were in the saddle at one time.)  
    
    -john

>>can you describe in which ways you are less comfortable
    with the lower saddle height?  Knee soreness?  Lower back?  Other?

It wasn't really pain, I just didn't feel as strong.  If anything, my knee
hurt some and my lower inside quad (just above the knee) felt cramped-up.

>>How long (hours, miles) were your rides during the season?
    
Typically 3 nights per week 25-30 miles.  Anywhere between 50-100 total
on weekends.

>>What speed, roughly? 

I averaged around 17-18MPH with some traffic light stops.

>>pelvic-area (sit-bone) soreness, ankles perhaps

I didn't have any of this.

>>*and* did not rock side-to-side when pedalling

I didn't think I did, but my initial experience on the rollers may lead 
me to believe otherwise (I think it was swerving more than rocking).

Thanks for the ideas & interest.

Ray

I'm not sure how these measurements are taken, but not knowing something never
stopped me expressing an opinion before....

I measured BB axle to top of saddle, along the seat tube.
I then measured inside leg, to ground, in bare feet.
The result was 85%

I've ridden just over 8000 km to date this season, with the longest ride 245 km
in a day.  I don't get saddle-sore, but then I'm still faithful to a Brooks Pro
- I tried a Turbo and it nearly killed me!!

PS I read Hinault's book on position and decided I needed a Cray to work it all
out...      ;>)

    If you have access to a video camera ...
    
    Videotape yourself from the front, rear, & side.  It's easy
    to analyze a videotape (can play it in slo mo, etc). In an issue
    of Bicycling about a year ago there was a good article that
    described what to look for on the videotape (angles, measurements,
    plumb lines, rocking, position, etc).  Beats looking at yourself
    in a mirror, or just trying to "feel" the position.
    
    If you want to try videotaping, I can make a copy of the article
    and send it to you.
    
    Regards,
    Mark

    I second Mark's suggestion.  
    
    Still shots can also be a help.  Several years ago I received some
    1 x 1s from a professional who photographed me in the Burlington 
    Criterium.  I couldn't believe how bad my position was.  Cramped
    back, cramped shoulders, legs not extended enough, not horizontal 
    even when I was way down in the drops.
    
    I went through five years' worth of WINNING (good source for positions
    the pros are using), comparing those pics with my position.  As a
    result I did the following:
    
    o Traded an 11cm stem for a 13cm (and my next frame will be a 55cm,
      after riding a 54cm for 15 years).
    
    o Dropped the stem as far as the headset would allow.
    
    o Raised my saddle half an inch (gradually, over two years).
    
    o Went from 40cm bars to 44cm (much easier to breath).
    
    Last year the same photographer caught me in a solo at the Pawtuckett
    Criterium, and the improvement was obvious:
    
    o Back straight and horizontal
    
    o Arms more extended (room for more, though) 
    
    o Legs more extended (generating more power) 
    
    People with cramps and sore backs often blame these on being too
    extended, but sometimes they're not extended enough.  The same 
    principals for stretching after a workout apply to position on a 
    bike -- you want to extend as far as you can to relieve stress 
    (but without inducing stress). 
    
    The pros do not use the positions they do simply because they're
    racing and want to be aerodynamic.  They often ride for eight
    hours straight on challenging terrain, so they need to be comfortable.
    I've been asked twice this year, "How can you ride like that?" and
    the answer both times has been comfort, with aerodynamics an added
    dividend.
    
    Old school wisdom is stem raised and saddle not too high.  Sean
    Kelly still abides by this (and still uses toe clips and straps), 
    but look at Lemond, Fignot, Anderson, Breukink, Mottet, and Indurain.  
    Their saddles are all way up, and their stems way down, even in the 
    mountains.  Also, there is a trend toward longer top tubes by some
    of the frame builders.
    
    My point in mentioning Kelly is that position is not the key to riding
    well, at least for a rider of his caliber.  But it definitely helped
    me.
    
    By the way, my saddle position is roughly .883 of inseam (center of
    bottom bracket to top of saddle).  This is the position riders 
    coached at one time or another by Cyrille Gimard (Lemond, Fignot,
    Hinault) all seem to swear by.  This is quite extended, so my
    question on the basenoter is:  Where is the .95 applied?  Bottom
    bracket axle to saddle top?  
    
    Justin

    Justin's experience is mine, to a limited extent.  (That is,
    I've not gone nearly as far as he has.)  In the last year,
    I have lowered the stem, lengthed the stem extension, and
    straightened my back some.  I now feel comfortable riding in
    what amounts to a fairly aerodynamic position.  (Note: my
    saddle positioning was already roughly correst, and the
    handlebars were already wide.)
    
    It took some time for this to be comfortable.  The back muscles
    have to stretch out and strengthen themselves, for example.  So
    if you do this, be patient, and also enlist the help of a knowledgeable
    bike-fit person, e.g., at your bike shop.
    
    There are drawbacks - for example, more neck and eyestrain, because
    your head and neck are not "resting" on your spine as much - i.e.,
    they are suspended more horizontally.
    
    But it is now odd to be talking to someone biking next to me -
    someone who's roughly my height (standing), and crane my neck
    to look up to him/her, because he/she is towering over me in
    a more vertical position.  :-)
    
    -john (with apologies for the further digression from .0)

    
    
      I agree with what Justin and John have already said.
    
      I would like to add a little bit about saddle height as compared to
    crank arm length.
    
      When I bought my new bike I made a lot of small changes to the fit
    based on what I felt were shortcomings on the my old bike.
    
    	I bought the same size frame (56cm) center to center.
        The Top tube is 1/2 cm longer (56.5cm).
    	The cranks are each 2.5mm longer (172.5mm).
     	I went from a 115mm stem 125mm.
     	I went from 40cm bars to 44cm bars.
    	I also used a deeper drop in the bars.  
    
      When I set the bike up I was very carefull to use the same saddle
    height. (from center of bottom bracket to top of saddle) I only had to 
    ride about 50 yards to know that the saddle was to high.  I have since
    lowered it a 1/2 inch or so in small increments(I'm not quite there)
    You have to take the crank length into consideration when you set saddle
    postion. If .883 of you inseam fits for 172.5mm cranks it won't fit for
    170 or 175mm cranks.
    
      I really like the Idea of video taping and then analyzing your position
    from that.  Also, I really like the wider bars, they are much more
    comfortable.  My position is also stretched forward another 15mm and I
    like this more.
    
      John C.
    

    re: .0

    Did you lower the saddle to get more stability? Or, are you trying the
    .883 figure? I thought the .883 would be higher than the 95% method.

    From your description, I would imagine that if you are stretched out
    properly, have the seat at 95%-.883 of your inseam, stem about 7 cm
    lower and the saddle setback correct, you should have enough weight on
    the front end for stability.   I remember the Waldon article specifying
    48% weight on the front, 52% rear.  I have my bike set up as LeMond and
    Hinault suggest.  Seat height .883, setback about 8 cm with a 73.5
    degree seat tube (works with the plumb line as well), stem 8 cm lower
    and the weight came out to just a tad more weight in the rear (55%).  I
    feel this may be because I need a 13 cm stem (12 now).  Even so, I have
    no problems with front end maneuvering and momentum; but, I can't even
    begin to ride the rollers with no hands! 

    My first ride on the bike was with the saddle higher.  I didn't realize
    that the guy fitting my cleats had forgot to lower it after the session
    (even though we both carefully marked it).  After a nice hilly 50
    miles, I felt a soreness in my ankles/calves, which seemed to be from
    the heel being too high throughout the motion. Once lowered, no
    problems there.
                                
    Do you need to be more forward - saddle, longer stem or top tube? 
    Is your headset working properly? Has the instability gone away?

    john

    
    ....about the headset :-).

    
    Does anybody lower their seat in winter due to additional clothing?
    
    john

    
    Ok, John, I can't resist that one... I think in some cyclists' case
    (Greg Lemond comes to mind), you *also* have to take into account
    the extra physiological padding acquired in winter.  :-)
    
    -john

     I generally do, but alas, my vernier caliper is out for repair :-)
    
       Chip

>    Does anybody lower their seat in winter due to additional clothing?

    Or should it be raised due to thicker boots?

    
    
       Yes I do lower my saddle in winter about a centimeter maybe a little
    less. I would'nt worry about it if I was only wearing one layer and
    some days two layers of clothes on my butt. However; sometimes I wear
    3 layers and most winter days 2 layers. Also I believe a slighly lower
    saddle relieves pressure on the knee and with -4C tempertures and 20,30
    and maybe 40km/hour winds I feel my knees need all the help they can
    get. Up here we have a saying called "Easter knee". They tell me it is
    a sore knee condition due to too much hammering in cold wind and
    cold weather. Anyone else heard of Easter knee by that name? or is this
    just local Toronto B.S.
    
                                                                Wayne V

    I also lower my seat a little, but it's not really due
    to the extra layers.  The thickness of the heavy army
    surplus wool pants is 3mm at most.

    The reason I lower the seat is so that I can get my foot down
    quicker if I slip on an icy spot.

    -Jeff Bell

	"Easter knees" was a very common description in the UK, in the 1960's -
it was a painful condition reckoned to have been brought on by wearing shorts
before Easter....  Mind you, in those days, we had the real loonies who rode all
the year round in shorts, they were really crazy because they would wear jackets
hats, scarves etc, but still keep to shorts - a bit like not eating quiche....