Conference noted::bicycle

    
    	How much do you think I get paid?
    
    Graham :*)
    
    

	I've been a Campy fan for years and built a bike this summer with	
	7 speed Croce (identical to C Record). The shifting is not great
	but once you get used to it, it's ok. The thing that is 
	unbelievably bad is the Delta brakes. You have to be Swartzenager
	to stop the bike. The brake levers are incredibly hard to work.

	I had an opportunity to ride the same exact frame equipped with
	Dura Ace STI. It was awesome! I had to look down at the freewheel
	to make sure it was actually shifting; it's so smooth and quiet
	you almost can't discern the shift. The brakes work as well as the
	shifters.

	If I were going to buy a new group it would be Dura Ace (at least
	the brakes and derailluers; you can't beat a C Record crank and
	bottom bracket)

	Steve

     Thanks Steve. I've heard the very same thing about the 7spd CAMPY
    stuff. The 8spd is supposed to blow it away. I know the Dura Ace
    stuff is great. I have it on one of my bikes. The STI system (8spd)
    has too many restrictions for me right now, e.g. no friction alter-
    native, limited to a 23 tooth cog in the rear, heavy and the price
    is absoultely ridiculous (I think Shimano is trying to get their R&D
    investment back in one year).
    
     Surprising to hear about your Delta's. I love mine. I don't think
    mine are hard to work and I have no problem with stops. Not to insult
    you, but are they set up the way they should be? Maybe there is some-
    thing wrong with the cam mechanism or levers... I wouldn't trade mine
    in for anything...
    
     Chip 

    
     I bought a new bike in June with the 8 speed chorus cassette.
     I love it!! The shifting is wonderful. I've never used Dura
     Ace so can't really make any comparisons. 
    
     I have no problem with the brakes. They stop the bike... what
     else is there?
    
     Jean

    My Deltas are harder to pull than most brakes.  When they're not
    well-maintained, they become especially hard.  I think the mechanical
    path that all those little lever arms make is not very efficient.
    However, I have never been able to lock up the Deltas, even in
    a panic stop.  I consider this to be a feature; it's definitely
    saved me more than once.

>    However, I have never been able to lock up the Deltas, even in
>    a panic stop.  I consider this to be a feature; it's definitely
>    saved me more than once.

    I would consider it to be a major bug.

    If you don't get enough braking force to lock them up when it's
    wet out, then you're getting less than full brakes when it's dry.

    If they lock up when on wet roads, but don't when on dry, then
    the rare lock up will be a big surprise.

    Trade them in for some diacompe side pulls.

    -Jeff
    

     I can lock mine up... NO PROBLEM. I think the point being made is
    once you lock them up YOU LOSE ALL of your stopping power and control.
    
     The thing I like best (which is the point - I think - was trying to be
    made) is that you have a vast (adjustable) spectrum of "feel" and
    control of braking power and application intensity.
    
     You really can't get that from DiaComp (had 'em), Weinnman (had 'em),
    Suntour (had 'em), CAMPY Chorus (still got 'em)...
    
     I'll keep mine until they come out with a 200g disk set-up!
    
        Chip

	As hard as mine are to apply, I can lock them up if I wanted to,
	but I can't think of a good reason to. I agree with Chip, you
	lose control when your brakes are locked. 

	Trade in Campy Deltas for DiaComp - No way, I'd rather ride without
	brakes. Besides, it's always better to look good than stop good.

	Steve

	

    
    For the Colorado segment of RAAM, I chose my SL De Rosa.  (Is this a
    digression??)  I thought it might climb a little better than the
    Kestrel, but the other reason was: I'd put Athena brakes on the Kestrel
    and Ultegras on the De Rosa.  The Ultegra levers were easier to reach
    and control, especially on long descents.  (Note, it was the brake
    levers, not the brake calipers that were at issue in this case.)
    
    I'm a Campy fan, but sometimes simple, good engineering-that-works
    counts for a lot more in a pinch.
    
    -john

I've heard a lot of bad press regarding the Delta brakes.  I rode Nuevo Record 
brakes for 15 years until I got the Merlin this year.  I found that both work 
very well but the Deltas were a little more responsive.  Thought that it may be 
due to a lighter bike...

Eric

     We haven't even touched on one of the more important aspects of
    this element... Being physically equipped! Now, I'm not saying
    that you have to pursue Popeye-type forearms, but sparrow-bodies
    need not apply... :-) Just kidding. Please, no threats... :-)
    
       Chip

    
    	Thanks to Chip's advice, my Deltas are working beautifully.
    	It's amazing what a little well place grease will do. Now
    	not only do they look great, but they work great too. My
    	faith in Campy has been restored. 
    
    	Go Delta
    
    	

    
    	Since this note's digressed into a brake issue as well, I'll stick
    in my tuppence.
    
    	Never been a great Campy fan. I think that Shimano is by far the
    more advanced equipment and that Campy, for so long the only equipment
    to be seen with, is being pressurised into following technology, never
    effectively breaking new ground (Index gears, SLR breaking, etc). I
    also feel that Campy prices itself out of the market over here. Shimano
    is generally 50 pounds cheaper than the equivelant Campy range.
    	That said, the one area that I feel that Shimano have never come
    close to Campy is in brake blocks. They are just too soft and have
    absolutely no effect in the wet. My way round this was to fit
    Specialised Anodised blocks. The improvement was staggering.
    
    Graham.
    

      Just a little "retort" from a CAMPY-moonie... While I would agree
    CAMPY is pricey (okay, it's astro-costly), there are two big areas
    that Shimano has yet to prove or broach. I do like Shimano, don't 
    get me wrong. BTW, these two areas are also agreed to by every bike
    shop I've ever walked into...
    
     1) (Shallow I know, but...) APPEARANCE. No one has a finish like
        CAMPY! The only other gruppo that comes close (IMHO) is MAVIC.
        The CAMPY stuff is much better looking and the finish is not
        even comparable.
    
     2) CAMPY's reputation for durability. The reputation for long lasting
        quality is unquestionable. I see soooooo much Nuovo/Super Record
        stuff around it's incredible. The CAMPY stuff is also VERY repair-
        able. You can get any part you need for anything...
    
        I'm sticking with CAMPY until it let's me down... One point, they
        have perfected indexing... It is not anywhere near as flexible
        as Shimano's (parts interchangeability), but then again, you can't
        claim ownership of "frivilous-exotica"...
    
          Chip

    >>    able. You can get any part you need for anything...
    
    Maybe, but I've tried Belgium, Holland, France, England and Italy!
    for a replacement crank I broke. I admit it is a 180 and p'haps a
    bit rare, but still if they make 'em they should replace 'em.
    
    I do agree that most Campy stuff is beautiful ... except for their
    delta brakes which are an aesthetic disaster (IMO).

    
    "...except for their Delta brakes, which are aesthetically a disaster."
    
    But what other brake calipers have room for a smiley-face sticker?  :-)
    
    More on Campy aesthetics: I was soooo sorrowful to replace the
    work-of-modern-art C-Record shifters with Playskool-looking Simplex
    shifters (and, on my newest bike, with, gasp, Shimano 105's!), but
    "automatic shifting" was an extra feature I felt I could do without.
    
    Still, I've kept the Campy's around, for static display off the bike.
    
    -john

    re: Brakes  
    
    If you have braze on's, the Scott Peterson Self engergizing are GREAT!
    American technology has finally succeeded.  I put a set on the back
    end of the tandem, they feel like a front campy brake.  
    
    steve

    
    
    Any experience out there with the MAVIC Group?  I'm going mad trying to
    decide between Campy 7 speed and MAVIC for my new frame....I've got
    Record and Super Record on the ole steed...and it's been great.  
    
    What's the story on Campy's non-casette indexed stuff?  Have they
    improved that system as well?
    
    -Steve

     Stay away from CAMPY's 7spd stuff (Gawd, I don't believe I said that).
    If you want indexing and aren't will to to do the suicide dive into
    the wallet, you'd be much better going with MAVIC. I know a who's
    a CAT III and that's all he ver uses and swears by. He's got the 
    new stuff right now and loves it.
    
     Everything ever written supports the stuff much in the same way the
    CAMPY stuff is. It's nice looking, it performs, it's reliable, durable,
    and repairable...
    
      Chip

    I agree with Chip, stay away from the Campy 7sp stuff unless you are
    going friction. But if you are doing index and want Campy, you will
    have to dig deep into you pocket for the 8sp cassette. We just setup a
    complete 8sp Chorus grouppo on a TSX Guerciotti (sp) and the shifting
    actually works. But the bike is about $2.9K. 
    
    We had a complete set of Mavic but somebody brought the whole grouppo
    so I never had a chance to set a bike up with it.
    
    As you know, The Shmano shifting is great. STI will be coming to the
    600 grouppo next year. I have my eyes on a C-Dale SR 900 already.
    Anybody want a 58 cm special edition C-dale with 600 Ultegra stuff?
    give me a call at the end of this year.
    
    Dave 
                                  

    
    
    That's good...you folks confirmed my suspicions...I'm going with Mavic.
    I got a pretty good deal on an SL Bianchi (always liked that Celleste
    Green)...bought a set of wheels for the old steed from Nashbar on sale
    for $175 (Mavic hubs/Omega rims) and a Maillard freewheel.  The wheels
    are great (of course I did have to re-true them)...now I have to pour
    over the mailorder catalogs...unless someone has a Mavic groupo laying
    around - 8^)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    There is a WARNING in the last few issues of Winning, Bicycling and
    other cycling magazine to indicate that the mail order companies are
    not authorize Mavic dealers. Mavic will not replace any defective parts
    from them either. I think this is the same for Campy. 
    
    Do anybody know more about defective components from a Catalog order.
    This could go to a new note.
    
    dave_who supports his local bike shop by working a one :^)

I bought my Mavic crankset and BB in person from Colorado Cyclist, while I was
out there for training.  I later learned that a special tool is required for
installing the BB.  As it happened, my local shop had the tooling, and installed
the BB (and crank) for me.  I suspect the primary issue behind that warning ad
is the special tool required for the BB.  If you go with a Dura-Ace BB you will
avoid that issue entirely.  I've read in various places that the Dura-Ace BB is
fully compatable with Mavic's crank.  As for defective parts replacement, it
hasn't been an issue for me.  I'm not sure how Mavic or Campy could get away
with not honoring their warranties, although they certainly could make it a
horrendous hassle.  I'm all for supporting local shops, but CC's price compared
to my local shop's price was too much to pass up.  I don't feel guilty either,
over time we've purchased a bike, numerous accessories, and service from that
dealer.  Unfortunatly, they are no longer local, if someone needs a pointer for
a good bike shop in Tampa, FL; let me know.  BTW, I don't have the groupo, just
the BB and crank.

Barry

     I have nnever had a problem with the catalogs. I have "stupidly"
    ordered wrong CAMPY stuff from them and they graciously (and quickly)
    replaced it. In fact, it's against the law for them to NOT take back
    defective parts. It's your right right, as a consumer, under the
    protection acts. Being a distributor does not make their liability
    or responsibility go away. They may have a beef with CAMPY or MAVIC
    on a policy like that. But THEY own and may have to live with it,
    not you... 
    
     MAVIC stuff is not easy to get. I understand they only allow so
    many gruppos (to be sold as gruppos) to distributors each year.
    We're getting late in this year. There are probably some out there
    somewhere. If not, you may have to wait for the next batch...
    
     Good luck and good choice...
    
    
              Chip

    
    	I must admitt that I've found problems getting hold of spare parts
    for ALL manufacturers (Campy are probably easiest to get simply because
    their equipment is the most readily available). I'm not talking about
    replacing a part that I've found defective when opening the box, but
    after crashing (often) when only one small part is broken. But to avoid
    a year wait you need to replace the entire unit:*(
    	I've put it down to the fact that there's more money involved in
    groupsets than in nuts and bolts. But then maybe I'm looking in the
    wrong shops...
    
    Graham.
    

    
    	Isn't Campagnolo Italian for 2nd mortgage?
    
    Graham.
    

    
    I have had to replace parts of Campy components, and, yes, the
    parts are in the catalogue, but it is an expensive experience...
    I guess for one thing because there's no volume at all in those
    little pieces.
    
    My C-Record (1986-model?) rear derailleur needed a tiny pin.
    Alas, today's Record is a different model entirely, and the
    old parts are hard to find.
    
    It took a long time searching, and eventually I think the dealer
    got the pin from a non-Campy distributor who had one lying around
    in a back room somewhere.
    
    The C-Record BB also needed a new spindle at one point.  But neither
    of the two varieties of new Record spindles fit, so in the end the
    whole BB got replaced.  Piecemeal, that would have cost a much bigger
    fortune than just purchasing a new BB straight out.
    
    Still, it's nice that these components are serviceable and can be
    rehabilitated with new subcomponents.

     I agree with John. Having rebuilt a couple of CAMPY things, it is
    an expensive experience.
    
     I have found myself buying a pair of some things. That way I only
    wince once... :-)
    
       Chip

    
    
    ...yea, I have had to fix a few components in my day...but having a
    father who owns a machine shop has taken some of the pressure off on
    the oddball bits and pieces!  8^)  Some day I'll convince him to start
    making hubs or something...
    
    -Steve

	I love Campagnolo. I love Mavic, Shimano, Suntour and all the rest. I
  can't find any bad in the world at all. Everything's painted in red and gold.

  Graham.

 (We apologise for this interruption. It is due to reasons outwith our control
  and are doing all we can to resume normal cynicism. It appears to be a good
  mood sparked off by Scotland getting a draw against Switzerland last night.
  Just goes to show, miracles do happen).

    Graham, from your last posting, I wouldn't recognize you!
    
    MATT 

I was there, y'know, at the Sco-Swi game. With the Scottish supporters, too.
Madness.


Rod

>>         -< I shudder to think what would happen had Scotland won >-
    
	Stunned silence...
    
    	Rod. Have the Swiss been getting nasty with their threats yet? I've
    never bawled at a TV screen so much in my life. Well, except when
    Fignon attacked Lemond in '89...
    
    Graham.
    

     Well, my baby goes in for surgery today (8spd implant). Given the
    crappy forecast it probably won't be until late Friday or Saturday
    before I can test pilot the thing.
    
     I definitely will let you know how I made out and my personal opinion
    on CAMPY 8sp vs. Dura Ace (indexing).
    
     Chip

    
    Chip,
    
    Did you have to have the rear stays fiddled to go to the Campy 8 speed?
    As I recall the spacing is 130 mm rather than the more common 126/127
    spacing.  Just in case I have a 'windfall' - 8^)
    
    Steve

     I did nothing. The frame is set-up for 8spd. It took a 7spd f/w
    with no problem... You'll find the older frames (and probably the
    cheaper ones) will have the narrow spacing. Most of the newer mod.'s
    are designed for 7-9spd spacing...
    
     I went down and looked at my new stuff when I dropped the bike off.
    Looks delicious. Even the head mechanic told me that he was very
    impressed with the new CAMPY 8spd. stuff. He also said the Rollof
    should go a whole season (I usually go through at least 2 chains a
    season. It is narrow, but looks beefy at the same time. Nice stuff.
    
     The only difference I could see in the derailleur is that the pulley
    wheels are black... The hub spins exceptionally well and, naturally,
    it's very pretty...
    
       Chip 

    
     Well, the verdict is in... I LOVE IT! They did get it right. I'm
    running a pretty bizarre set-up right now (11x23) and even that 
    works fine. It is as good as my Dura Ace stuff (prettier though).
    
     I did have one mine problem and I think (hope) I've fixed it. When
    tourquing up a hill, the pulley wheel bolt would nick some spokes.
    It didn't do it just pedalling easily or spinning the wheel. I've
    adjusted the derailleur and find out tonight.
    
     The differences between D/A and CAMPY are very subtle. The shifting
    levers do not work as stiff (tight might be a better word) with the
    CAMPY set-up. The shifts are very responsive with the CAMPY set-up.
    Almost to a fault. If you go beyond the click, it will try and shift
    up, but returns immediately (as long as you don't pull the 2nd click).
    I think (my opinion) it down shifts much more sharply/crisply that the
    D/A set-up.
    
     I guess you can tell I'm happy with it. 
    
        Chip

    
    Chip,
    
    Did you go with the Chorus or Record components?  I'm seriously
    considering just saving a couple hundred more for the Chorus 8-speed
    cassette stuff instead of Mavic...'specially with your 'good news'!!
    
    Steve

Chip,

I can't answer your question about going from 7 spd to 8 spd.  I put the 8 spd 
directly on the new Merlin.

BTW, Just came back from Interbike'91 - big trade show...  Say the new Campy 
shifters on the brake levers (TSC, Total Shifting Control) Ergopower.  Similar 
to D/A with the smaller lever inside the brake lever for downshifting but the 
upshift lever is a button that sticks out from the inside of the hood.  Feels 
good from the 2 common hand positions (over the hoods and on the bars).  I was
uncertain about the feel from the bar position but it's great!!  Chip, looks
like we may have been a little early in our purchases.  TSC is not presently
available but soon.  First impression:  It will outplace Shimano since the brake
lever will not feel loose.

Eric

     Steve & Eric: I have the C RECORD stuff (8spd). I can't speak
                   for the Chorus... I did love my stuff though.
    
                   The new Campy stuff sounds very interesting. 
    
                   Eric, do you know if they'll offer a  conversion
                   kit for owners of the new 8spd stuff?
    
       Chip

Chip,

I don't know.  I hope that the brake levers are available separately.

Eric

     We'll have to mortgage the house to get those (probably). I don't
    know... Campy has a lousy track record (no pun here) with the intro
    of new technology... Maybe I'll give 'em a season for the usual shake-
    down...
    
       Chip

It's in the November issue of Bicycling.

Eric

>It's in the November issue of Bicycling.
    November already? I still have tomatoes on the vine!

    
    
    Geeeez, that's getting to be one of my pet peeves these days...you know
    here it is....September 24th...and if somebody says "Oh that's in the
    September issue of blah-de-blah magazine"...my goose is cooked 'cause
    they've already been replaced with November issues by September 15th!!!
    
    Soon they'll be announcing 1993 cars...in 1991!!
    
    

      I agree with Steve... Is BICYCLING magazine caught in some kind
     of space/time warp continuum (or something)? I do like the magazine,
    but there distribution schedule is bizarre.
    
      Steve, the best thing to do is subscribe. You save a little money
    and you're months ahead of the Julian Calender... a time pioneer of
    cycling (kinda)... On the cutting edge of information and technology!
    
        :-) Okay, okay. I'm alright now...
    
             Chip

    I'll trade November's Bicycling for tomorrow's Globe anyday...
    
    John

     One thing I was remiss in mentioning... The new derailleur is less
    pretty than the friction style, but it's still attractive...
    
      Chip

     Well, CAMPY's doing it to me again! A new derailleur this year, nifty
    new down-tube shift levers with an adjustment screw to make "while-
    riding" index adjustments and a design change to help shifts (and 
    according to BICYCLING's Tim Blumentahl they work great) with a slight
    upswing of the level.
    
     Then it's their TSC system that has me vibrating. While no performance
    reports are available (unbiased), a friend of mine went to a show. They
    were mounted on a bicycle in a stand. He said they seemed to work per-
    fectly.
    
     Colorado Cyclist already has the items listed... $50 clams for the
    shifters and $470 for the TSC kit. 
    
     Eric, what do think... I think I just might wait for some news on the
    TSC system and how it performs, then carve out a chunk of my income tax
    return and shoot the moon...
    
     I wish they'd stop doing this... The good news is it appears the index
    stuff (8 spd) will work in a mix of '91 & '92 components. At least
    they're getting better. 
    
     Still pricey, but still beautiful...
    
       Chip

    
    
    Gee whiz, and I haven't bought the derailleurs for my new frameset yet!
    
    8^)

Hey Chip,

I may wait for the '93 model where the shifters would actually be sensors in 
your helmet that picks up commands via brain waves and transmits it via low 
intensity lasers to the derailleurs.  Obviously the whole system would be
encoded to accept only your personal brain wave pattern.  Campy is almost there;
they have a prototype that understands the Italian language (a first).  They
have another version that they abandoned due to it's reponse characteristics of
shifting only when you start your command with "Simon says...".  

The pricing will only be about 10% above the highly inflated '92 prices (which
is equal to the current GNP of Yemen...)

Eric

P.S.  Does that answer your question?

    Mmmmmm... Yup, I guess you're gonna stick with ya got...
    
    I'll do the stupid thing, I'm sure, and dive into it... I will wait
    until spring...
    
      Chip

Wait until spring??  No way, they're already on my Merlin... (in my dreams)

Re: TRANSCENDENTAL SHIFTING.

Imagine setting it up on a tandem...the derailleurs would feel like Cybill...

Eric_yes_no_yes_no_yes...

    
    
    
       I would assume that TSC levers would work with Cobalto calipers. Am
    I right?
    
                                                Yours in possessionism
                                                   Wayne V

    I' like to take this moment to express my gratitude to the likes of
    Chip, Eric, and Wayne, who so graciously underwrite Bicycle
    manufacturers' R&D for the benefit of the rest of us (who'll be buying
    a TSC-equivalent for $50 three years from now, when Chip and co. are
    toying with their laser-triggered transmissions).  I only wish I had
    your disposable income (or credit line, as the case may be) so I could
    help this worthy cause.
    
    
    MATT

     We really didn't want to tell you guys, but we really get this stuff
    for free. See, we're front men for a number of component and frame
    manufacturers.
    
     We work off "credits". We are credited for correspondence and verified
    sales. 
    
     It's informatin we really don't like sharing becuase, well basically,
    we're just a greedy cut-throat lot with the need to exceed (as was put
    earlier).
    
     So please, don't hate us because we pursue the techno-envelope, but
    cherish the value of our input and used parts inventory...
    
       Chip

     I forgot to mention... If the performance comes in positive on the
    TSC system, I'm gonna put it on Santa's list. That means a hardly
    used set of CAMPY 8spd index shifters will hit the market (post-
    XMAS)...
    
     I just can't help myself... Thank God for the art of armed robbery,
    drug smuggling, and contract hits!
    
      Chip "the finger" Girouard

That's right, Chip, give them the finger!!

I forgot to mention that my mother's maiden name is Campagnolo.

Ciao,

Erico

     Anyone catch the article on the DeRosa in BICYCLING magazine?
    
     They absolutely LOVED the new ergonomic CAMPY shifting system.
    
     OH NO..... ! This spring I'll shifting from the hoods/drops!
    
     Help me, Help me... Is there an B-A (Bicycling Anonymous) group?
    
        Chip 
    
     P.S. I believe the words used was "shifted like an ARIA"
    
       Chip

    
    They liked it but said it was less easy to shift from the
    brake hoods (easier than STI from the drops, however).
    
    -john
    
    PS: The De Rosa write-up was nice to read, especially for
    a confirmed De Rosa fan.  :-)  The photo with the Lago di Como
    below as backdrop looked classic Italian.  The two-toned paint
    job reminds one of a 1955 Chevy, for better or worse. ;-)

      Yup, John. I remember him saying that. He was also very honest in
    saying that he was basically a traditionist (and no racer requirements)
    and likes down-tube shifters the best... Hey, maybe he'll by my 8spd
    shifters??? :-)
    
     He also made a point of CAMPY's ability to up-shift 2 cogs at a time
    vs. Shimano's 1 and to be able to sweep the entire cassette (CAMPY)
    during a down-shift vs. 3 at a time with the STI system.
    
     Ehhhh, okay... I'll bite (did I surprise anyone?)
    
        Always in pursuit of the frivilous and exotic!
    
              Chip

    I'll be restarting the local chapter of BBA after I take delivery of my
    Trek 5500.
    
    ed

     Well, I ordered my CAMPY ERGOS! I've been told April or May. I knew
    that'd happen. I'll bet June will be more realistic. I found out there
    are no more CAMPY distributors in the U.S. which means a direct order
    from pasta-land...
    
     Chip

Well, Chip, now the only question is who will get'em first...

Eric_who_is_at_least_getting_them_for_nothing...

Well Colorado Cyclist called me last night to say they
are shipping my STI levers Express. Should have them
Friday.

I'll be building the bike up this weekend :-)


Tom_who_is_now_hoping_for_warm_weather

     Go ahead Eric, rub it in... 
    
     Hey Tom, please refer to the NOTE title. We're talking high quality
    Italian componentry here... Not the Far Eastern stuff  :-) :-)...
    
     
    
        Chip