Conference noted::bicycle

A dir/title=spoke will find you a number of other notes on the subject of spoke 
breakage, might be a good place to start....
                  ken

	Hi Al

	I had the same problem two years ago, when I bought a new bike with
	new rims of course. It was a Mavic profile rim. Allmost every 500 km
	a spoke has broken. Once, on a holiday trip, I broke three spokes in 
	one go. 

	I was so angry that I bouth a brand new rim "MIXER" with new spokes.
	Since I rode over 12000 km and the wheel did not alter at all. There 
	was probably a tension in the rim, I never really knew. 

	Suggestion: ask your bike seller to check the tension of each spoke!

	Norbert
  

    This happens a lot if you ride a tandem.  I find that when that first
    spoke goes, others will soon follow...  That's when I get the wheel
    rebuild (with a new rim if necessary).
    
    Your problem may also be that the combined weight of you and the bike
    as well as the stress that you put on the wheels (aggressive climbing)
    may be too much for a 32-hole wheel.
    
    Eric

    You didn't drop the chain into the spokes did you?  If not, have you
    spoken with the dealer?  Ask him if he thinks it's reasonable for this
    to happen.  Of course it's not, but see if he'll offer some advice.  He
    sold you the bike, he might fix up the wheel for free till you get a
    1000 miles on it.  He might not either but you should see whether
    he'll offer some relief.
    
    If he says you're too heavy for 32 spokes, then he should have said
    that when he sold you the bike.
    
    ed

	All Right I'll ask...

	What's the recommended weight for a 32 spoke wheel?

    The recommended weight also depends on the spoke gauge, quality
    of the spokes and if the wheels were hand built. If it is a factory
    laced-built 32 spoke wheel, some rider at about 180-200 pound might
    have some trouble especially if they are power riders. There is a
    theory out that the 32 spokes wheels are even stronger then the higher
    spokes wheels because they have even number of spokes (8) pulling and
    pushing on per side, which balences tension.
    
    But if you are having trouble breaking spokes, then you might have to
    have your hand built with 14 gauge stainless steel spoke. This should 
    cost about $35.00 per wheel. If you only had the bike a short while,
    they might even do for free.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Dave

230 pound rider, 32 14-gauge 3-cross build wheels and no spoke breaks in two
years.  They were built tight and as even tension as possible without a tension
gauge.  Total mileage around 8000 miles.

Matrix Iso-C rims with Hoshi blades caused problems in the rear wheel due to rim
holding spoke nipple straight --- spoke nipple not able to align with tension 
in spoke that started fatiguing spokes at the nipple end.  After a
year and a half and somewhere around 6000 miles a spoke a month started popping.
After 4, the wheel was rebuilt with Wheelsmith stainless round, 14 gauge, and
no broken spokes since.

I have found that at my weight spokes breaking at the elbow at the hub means the
wheel was not built tight enough, enough tension is lost as the wheel turns to 
allow the elbow to
work and fatigue.  Factory delivered wheels are not tight enough --- I have not
bought any Wheelsmith wheels that are supposed to be well built.

A fellow rider swears by rims with grommets because you can run the tension high
in them with less pull-out troubles.

We run rims over usual road trash on road bikes and really beat mountain bike
wheels down hills --- they are 32 spoke too and in two years off-road riding
have not resulted in any broken spokes.  I have only had to touch-up the 
mountain bike wheels twice, both times the rear.

And then there are titanium spokes . . . .
 

    	I brought the wheel back and had them replace the broken spoke.  I
    have not dropped the chain off the cassette and can rule out damaged
    spokes.  He will be speaking with the Nishiki dealer to see whether he 
    will replace the wheel but recommends that at a minimum to rebuild 
    the wheel with DT spokes if the problem continues. 
    	Thanks for your help.
    
    Al

    I just got a set of Wheelsmith 40 spoke tandem wheels with ??? tims (I
    forget the name but are American made anodized rims).  These wheels
    were bought through Santana.
    
    Q: Should I have the spokes tighten even before riding them?  -.2
    mentioned that they may not be tight enough...
    
    Eric_8_days_away_from_Duet_Classic

    .9: Eric, I think Wheelworks tightened the wheels on my Santana
    before I got it. Half the gromets broke before the bike had 800 miles
    on it.  You should see what that does to spoke tension!!!  However,
    Wheelworks nor Santana had ever seen this before and got me a new
    wheel -- which wheelworks also tightened.  No problems since.
    
    I suggest you feel all the spokes and decide for yourself.  I don't
    think you'll have bed results if you don't but a little tighter?
    dunno, depends, a lot of it is personal preference.
    
    ed

    Be careful about over tightening. I used to think that a little more
    wouldn't hurt until I over tightened and turned my new rim into a
    pretzel.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

>    Be careful about over tightening. I used to think that a little more
>    wouldn't hurt until I over tightened and turned my new rim into a
>    pretzel.
>    
>    	Marty Sasaki

You might enjoy reading _The_Bicycle_Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt.

According to him, the weakest part in a wheel is the rim, and you
should tighten the spokes unitl just short of rim pretzelation.

In his rec.bicycles postings, Jobst blames spoke hole failures
on anodized rims.  He says that the anodization leads to microcracks
around the spokes.

-Jeff

    Right, tighten until the rim turns into a pretzel and then back off
    one.  Just like coding in BLISS, add dots until you accvio and ...
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    Are your spokes stainless steel? If they are, you can expect to get
    spoke breakages. The problem is that the spoke is bent after it is
    formed. This means that hairline fractures are produced in the spoke,
    at a very critical point, when it is made. You can opt for very
    expensive double butted spokes, 50p each spoke, or go for chrome plated
    or standard zinc plated spokes.
    Simon Bedford-Roberts

    I bet that I break more spokes than almost anyone.  In the past 5 years
    I'll bet I've broken at least 25.  Many people have NEVER broken one.
    I'm pretty big at 6' and 175-180 lbs but there are bigger riders who
    don't seem to have nearly as much trouble.

    I really don't know how I do it or how to stop it so I just replace the
    first 2 or 3 breaks and then rebuild the wheel.  If the wheel is hand
    built, which yours probably isn't, the builder will most likely replace
    it and retrue it for free but that's kind of a pain in the neck unless
    you live very close to the shop.  Replacing a spoke is pretty easy *IF*
    you can get the freewheel/cassette cogs off.  After 2 to 3 breaks I
    loose confidence and just rebuild the wheel.

IOSG::ROBERTSS writes:
>    Are your spokes stainless steel? If they are, you can expect to get
>    spoke breakages. The problem is that the spoke is bent after it is
>    formed. This means that hairline fractures are produced in the spoke,
>    at a very critical point, when it is made. You can opt for very
>    expensive double butted spokes, 50p each spoke, or go for chrome plated
>    or standard zinc plated spokes.

Are you sure?

The double butted spokes are stainless too.

I'd never heard anyone else say that stainless steel spokes
were more prone to breakage.

Is this from your personal experience?
I've had many more plated spokes break, and never a stainless
one except where it had suffered other damage first.

-Jeff Bell

    	After breaking about 5 spokes, about one every 75 miles, the shop 
    called Nashiki and was authorized to rebuild my wheel with DT spokes.  
    They thought that maybe some of the original spokes were defective.  The 
    week following, we rode from Motreal back to Worcester with no spoke 
    breakage.  Now my only problem is figuring out how to true my wheel - it 
    seemed to go out of true during the ride.
    	Thanks for all the inputs.
    
    Al
    

    take it back if they built it and it went out of true right away they
    should fix it.
    
    ed

>    I was recommended to upgrade to handbuilt wheels, and did so. Mavic
>    Hubs, Open 4CD rims, DB ss spokes. Spoke tension relatively modest.
>    Two years solid racing no probs.
>
>    Having had another wheel build (different source), same components, I had
>    initial problems, never really cured, and never the blind belief I had
>    in the in the other set.
>
>    I subsequently had a further set built, and one lot rebuilt (crash
>    damage !!) by the original source. The diference I believe to be
>    an adhesive - Locktite  - on the screw end. It doesnt maybe allow for
>    self adjustment etc, but with care, the wheels havent gone out of true,
>    and no broken spokes.

But the wheels came from two different builders.

One of them might make smaller adjustments while trueing the wheel
and get the tension more even.  One might do a better job at stress
relieving.

If the spokes are loose enough for the loctite to keep the
nipples from unthreading, then it's a very loose wheel.

-Jeff Bell

    What's the consensus out there on using Locktite to keep wheels in
    true?  I've wondered about doing this myself but I was sure if it 
    would make it impossible to true them if and when they went out of
    alignment.
    
    Phil

    
    One of the big wheel builders says to use violet Locktite.  The builder
    may have been Wheelsmith.  I don't remember.  The violet is the weakest
    locktite.  Do not use the red, blue or green, they are too strong.
    
      I have had good luck using "Never Seez" compound.
    
    						Norm
    
    
       

I would have thought that if spokes go loose, the tension is too low (as a
previous reply suggests). I've had a problem-free summer with my open 4cd
wheels with highly-tensioned spokes, so Loctite obviously isn't necessary
for wheels. Still, if it makes you feel good, do it.


Rod

    
    The latest wheels I built were under the advise of the local
    shop -- they gave me some green liquid (that Wheelsmith supposedly
    uses) for the nipple-threads, in which you dip and let dry.
    
    It builds a wheel that "stays put" in terms of the spokes, but
    which you can true, etc., by hand.  I think that's the ideal.
    
    Not being scientific (:-)), I suspect that vibrations and tortions,
    etc., can cause nipples to work their way loose in some circumstances
    (say, if they're at the cusp or other technical term of some standing
    wave effect).
    
    -john

    I thought I read somewhere that you should apply a bit of grease to the
    threads of a spoke. This is to ensure that the spoke isn't twisted.
    Seems like the friction of the nipple in the rim should be adequate to
    keep things from loosening...
    
    	Marty

The following is from Mike "Bat" Buchanan, who incidentally beat me up
Moody Road last night...(ugh!)
                           ------------

My thoughts on wheel building, from my own experience and from experienced 
builders:

Job Brandts book "The Bicycle Wheel" is much too complex for any normal person
to understand.  It reads more like a PhD thesis.  Originally he was going
to write it with the Haertberg brothers of Wheelsmith but they objected to the
technical detail that he went into, they just wanted to write a "how to build
wheels" book.  However while 90% of the book is incomprehensible it does have a
section on how to lace up a wheel and how to start the trueing process.  I
would suggest that you just xerox these few pages and forget the rest of the
book.

Earlier someone suggested that your hand built wheels will be better than a
machine built wheel.  In most cases I don't think this is true.  The machines
can make a wheel better most novice wheel builders.  Most shops which use
machines will let the machine build the wheel 95% of the way, then an
experienced human will check it and take it the final 5%.

All experienced builders who I've spoken to have advised to use some sort of
spoke thread prep.  I've used the light (purple) lock-tight and the stuff from
Performance - which appears to be purple lock-tight.  I've also been told to
use linseed oil, the idea being that when wet it is a lubricant, but when it
drys it become gummy and acts like lock-tight.  Wheelsmith sells it's own brand
of spoke prep which costs about as much as French perfume, I asked them once if
it was similar to lock-tight and they admitted that it was.

The lock-tight will dry in about 2 hours.  After it dries it takes a bit more
force to turn the nipple on the spoke.  Therefore you want to tension the wheel
in one sitting if possible. I usually lace the wheel up with no spoke prep
first, but just turn the nipples as little as possible, just enough to catch. 
Then when I have time - usually I give myself 2 hours for a back wheel - put
the spoke prep on the exposed threads and finish the job.

At this point in time put a drop of oil on the outside of each nipple so it
runs down into the spoke hole in the rim.

Make sure you get the right size spokes for each side of a back wheel.  Start
by tightening the nipples until the nipple just covers the threads.  At
this point the wheel will still be loose but is should also be symmetrical.  In
theory you should be able the make the same adjustment on each spoke on a side
and the wheel should come very nearly into true.  I'm told that the most
important thing is for all the spokes to have the same tension.  That sounds
logical but you can actually get a wheel quite true with some very uneven
tension throughout the wheel.  This is particularly true with very strong rims
like mountain bike rims or some aero rims.

Before the spokes get any serious tension take a Magic Marker and mark the
outside of each spoke at the nipple.  As you tension the wheel make sure that
mark stays put.  As the spoke get under tension turning the nipple will cause
the spoke to twist or "wind up".  The spokes will slowly try to unwind
themselves, so if you get the wheel true but the spokes are twisted then the
wheel will quickly come out of true.  Most people will overtwist the spoke a
bit and then turn it back in hopes of getting the spoke straight (kind of like
trying to shift a Campy rear derailluer).  One builder I spoke to said that
this little twisting and untwisting will fatigue the spoke and rob it of some
of its elasticity.  He uses small, 4 inch, pair of vice grips to hold the spoke
with one hand while he turns the nipple with the other.

It is important that the spokes lay flat against the hub flange.  Most outbound
spokes (the spoke head is on the inside) will leave a gap.  The Brandt book
says to try and get the spokes to lay flat by pressing them with your thumb.
No way!  Instead take some sort of punch and wack it with a hammer.  It will
take a pretty good wack but if not the spoke will eventually work its way flat
and will come out of true.

There are three aspects of getting the wheel true:
        1) radial - that is the wheel has to be round, no high and low spots
        2) lateral - no left to right movement.
        3) center - must be centered between the dropouts.

You have to try and work on all three at the same time.  That's easier said
than done.  Usually I just pick the one that seems the worst and work that one
which trying not to let the other two get any worse.  Just work it a little
then check the whole wheel again, that little bit may not completely fix that
problem but it may be enough that one of the others are now worse.  If you work
slowly and carefully you will keep zeroing in and they will all come together
at the end.

Most people don't have a spoke tension meter, so you just have to guess at the
tension.  The best way is to compare it will a good wheel.  But the best thing
to do is get to be buddies with a good bike shop near you and take the wheel in
and ask them to check it.  It only takes them a minute or two.  Obviously you
have gotten the wheel true so that's not a problem, they just have to check the
tension and tell you whether it's OK or to add a bit.  And of course the best
way to be buddies with your favorite bike shop is to spend a lot of money
there, but the next best way to print out all the good stuff from the
CYCLE_RACING conference and take it into them.

    
    	Got to agree about the book. I bought it mail order thinking it was
    the answer to all my prayers. Instead it's put me off wheel builfding
    for life.
    
    Graham.

    
    Well, I loved the book.  It is so technical!  And the drawings
    are great.  Best of all, at least my edition has the right heft
    (plus which, it is a hardback) to really give those bowed spokes
    a good whack (as Bat suggests)!  :-)
    
    Seriously, I've only built very standard wheels, and the Brandt
    book, plus an experienced wheelbuilders help for the finishing
    touches, did fine.
    
    -john

    Well, I"ve been through the notes I found by DIR/TITLE=SPOKE and found
    some interesting information but no case quite like this...
    
    In the past year I've broken three spokes on the rear wheel - most
    recently today.  The wheel is a MAVIC MA-40 rim, Deore DX hub, laced
    4-cross with 14-gauge DT stainless spokes.  
    
    All 3 spokes have been on the NON-freewheel side - the one with the
    LOWER tension.  In each case the spoke has broken from 1/8 to 1/4"
    above the bend.  NONE have broken at the bend, in the middle, or near
    the nipple.
    
    I built this wheel about 18 months ago, and aside from when a spoke
    breaks it runs absolutely true mile after mile...  So far I've just
    been replacing the broken spokes with spares from the original build,
    but if necessary I'll rebuild the wheel.  I'm just curious why I'm
    having this problem...
    
    Ideas?

    
    
    	Is it the same spoke that breaks every time? If so, check the hub
    and make sure that there isn't any excess metal sticking out causing
    extra stress to the spoke.
    
    Graham.
    

    The loose spokes are the ones that break.
    They are the ones the flex and fatigue.

    -Jeff

    re .30:
    
    I don't THINK its the same one.  In the case last year I broke two
    adjacent spokes, this time only one.  But my recollection is that it
    was a different one.  
    
    As far as looseness - I don't think any of them could be considered
    loose.  I haven't tensioned them QUITE to the point of pretzelling the
    wheel then backing off, but none are loose...  

>   As far as looseness - I don't think any of them could be considered
>   loose.  I haven't tensioned them QUITE to the point of pretzelling the
>   wheel then backing off, but none are loose...

    Then how do you know that they're tight?

    -Jeff

 What type of milage and weight are these wheels dealing with?

I suspect the wheel was built a bit too loose for the weight it is carrying.

The spokes breaking on the loose side of the wheel is a hint that it was built 
too loose. 

Most of the spokes are now reaching the end of life for the duty they were put 
through, so a rebuild is a must. That is unless you want to keep replacing the 
spokes when they break. 


Has anyone ever noticed the difference between heavy gage or light gage spokes.
The heavier gage spokes are hard to tell when they are tight. They
don't have the same feedback like thinner gage spokes have when you tighten 
them. I've also noticed that the amount of fine adjustment for heavy gage spokes
is decreased when compared to thinner gage.

Tom

    re .32:
    
    You're probably right - I'm being too gentle but I thought once the
    spoke rang with E above middle C when plucked it was probably tight
    enough!  I keep my special spoke tuning fork handy for adjustments :^)
    
> What type of milage and weight are these wheels dealing with?

    Too much weight, too few miles...  Too many potholes here in MPO!
    
>I suspect the wheel was built a bit too loose for the weight it is carrying.
>
>The spokes breaking on the loose side of the wheel is a hint that it was built 
>too loose. 

    Could be.  Although compared with the rear wheels I"ve looked at on new
    bikes, the spokes on both sides are tighter as empirically measured by
    flexing a pair of spokes...
    
>Most of the spokes are now reaching the end of life for the duty they were put 
>through, so a rebuild is a must. That is unless you want to keep replacing the 
>spokes when they break. 

   I suspect you're correct and I'll just have to pick up a set of spokes
    and do a rebuild some evening...  No big deal.  After reading the other
    notes in here about breaking spokes I figured it was time for a
    rebuild.

>    You're probably right - I'm being too gentle but I thought once the
>    spoke rang with E above middle C when plucked it was probably tight
>    enough!

Hmmmm.  I've been told that it should be at least a G,
But there are other problem with going by pitch.

The first is that due to the lacing, you can't get just one spoke
to vibrate.  Lots of times it will sound like one atonal "plunk",
with no discernable fundamental.

Another problem is that the tone depends on the length and the mass
of the spoke.  A thicker spoke would give a lower tone at the same
tension, except that it also a bit stiffer, so it's not clear what to do.
The free length of the spoke is different for radial, 2X, 3X and 4X lacings
so that will change the sound.

One more reason to avoid truing by tuning, is that the spoke tension is
not really limited by the spoke strength, but by the rim strength.
Tightening until the rim starts to pretzel, is one way to maximize
spoke tension.


-Jeff Bell

One more thing.  It's important to stress relieve the spokes.
This stress the spokes so that the elbow sets to the shape of the flange,
and is no longer flexing on edge of its yeild strength while riding.

(At least this is what Jobst says.)

-Jeff

    Well, I fooled around long enough!  Last night I drove over to one of
    my local places for an after-work ride, and found I'd broken ANOTHER
    (*&^%$#@ SPOKE!  End of ride before ride even started!  This one was
    broken right in the curve.
    
    It had to have broken Sunday when riding on a flat, paved, smooth,
    bump-free bike trail.  Why didn't it break the previous weekend while
    riding on a bumpier, hilly, trail while carrying at least 25 lbs of
    stuff in panniers?
    
    In any case, enough's enough!  I went straight to my local bike shop,
    picked up a new set of spokes - DT 14 ga stainless - and rebuilt the
    damn thing!  And yes, I made sure I put the spoke curve on the
    countersunk side!  
    
    Methinks perhaps I should carry the odd spare spoke along when far from
    home!  Especially as long as I only have to replace spokes on the
    non-freewheel side...