Conference noted::bicycle

>    This September, my wife and I will be travelling west from Minneapolis
>    through South Dakota and out to Montana (Yellowstone, Grand Teton). 
>    From there we plan to head north through Montana (Glacier), and up into
>    Canada (Calgary, Banff)...  
    
Oh, GO FOR IT! All these areas have relatively flat sections and are 
frequented by quite a number of bikers. They also have some truly mondo 
hills, like Going to the Sun road in Glacier (just got back from there). 
But west of Logan Pass by Lake McDonald should be nice riding 
(restricted at peak traffic hours in places). In Canada, the Icefields 
Hwy between Banff and Jasper should have a number of short ride 
opportunities and is exceedingly bike-popular. When you get west of 
Jasper I think you should find some nice riding near Mt. Robson. Also, 
some of the side roads off the Icefields will provide you with nice 
rides, and the possibility of doing just enough hills so you won't die 
of it, but get a nice sense of having 'done it'. Don't know how much 
time you have, but if limited, get to the Can. Rockies for the bulk of 
it.... Also, be aware that it can start getting CHILLY up there in Sept!
Glacier had fresh snow on the summits 3 weeks ago..... pleasantly warm 
during the daze, tho.
                                      ken

    
    Bikecentennial has some routes for that region, I believe.
    You can get their maps without joining (or with joining).
    
    It *is* indeed possible to stay on relatively level ground
    and see these sights.
    
    -john

    re .1:
    
    Sounds great.  We'll be out there about 2 weeks and we're just going to
    play it by ear.  Get as far as we get - my wife is one of the ALL-TIME
    GREAT "relaxers"...  
    
    re .2:
    
>    Bikecentennial has some routes for that region, I believe.
>    You can get their maps without joining (or with joining).
    
    Anyone got a phone number for these folks?
    
>    It *is* indeed possible to stay on relatively level ground
>    and see these sights.
    
    Now John, I've read your other notes...  exactly WHAT does "relatively"
    flat mean to you?  To me, it is the equivalent of train grade trails
    (you have those where you are?) - you know, the trail rises at a rate a
    train could climb, somewhere around 1-3%.  You wouldn't steer an old,
    fat guy wrong would you?  

    David,
    
    "Relatively flat" in this case means "from hearsay" (namely, from
    reading some route-descriptions) - so this time you're pretty safe
    with that appraisal.  :-)
    
    Bikecentennial lists its address as P.O. Box 8308-A2, Missoula MT 59807.
    Their telephone number is (406) 721-1776.  ("1776" - cute, huh?)
    
    Let us know what you find out.
    
    -john
    
    PS: I'll have to get out a protractor or something to answer your other
    note.  The bike I used in Japan was my 52cm De Rosa. "Your angles may vary."

        My wife and I lived in Montana for 3 years, and we have spent
        a lot of time in Yellowstone and Glacier.  Probably a couple
        of months cumulative.  However, we have not been back since
        1979, and I am not sure how well I can remember the details.

        We brought our bikes to Yellowstone several times.  We would
        usually camp in the Madison Campground.  The road from Madison
        Jct. to W. Yellowstone Mt. is quite flat.  It follows the
        Madison river.  There were always a lot of elk in that river
        valley.  Also, the road between Madison Jct. and Old Faithful
        area follows the Firehole river and may not be too bad.  I
        can't remember this too well though.

        One of favorite little rides was on a hiking/biking trail that
        goes to Fairy Falls and Imperial Geyser.  It is a dirt path,
        but was flat and hard enough for a road bike with 27" standard
        tires.  This might be closed to bikes now based on a recent
        report from a friend.  That would be too bad.  I still
        recommend the hike back to Fairy Falls.  It could be that with
        all the mt. bikes that they want to keep people on the roads
        to avoid impact.

        The Haden Valley area of Yellowstone is flat and open.  Avoid
        the area south of Tower Jct.  That road goes over Mt. Washburn
        and is quite alpine.  Also avoid the area south of Old
        Faithful (toward Grand Tetons) since that road crosses the
        continental divide twice.

        Glacier National park is very mountainous.  We took our bikes
        up there but did not use them too often.  Unlike Yellowstone,
        Glacier has one primary road that runs through the park.  It
        is called the "going to the sun highway" and is not much of an
        exaggeration.

        We have only been to Banff and Lake Louise area in the
        wintertime for ski trips.  I can't really help you with biking
        plans for that area.

        It sounds like you will be having a great vacation.  I wish I
        could be doing a similar trip.  Have a great time.

        /Jim Pappas
    

    The area  is  absolutely  gorgeous.  That's the good news. The bad
    news  is  that  the Rockies are Mountains. Bikecentennial's "great
    Parks  North"  route  is a good route from Missoula to Jaspar, but
    has some vicious hills.

    In particular,  avoid Going to the Sun highway. I spent 4 hours in
    a  22"  gear  climbing it, and I was in decent shape. The roads in
    Canada  have nice wide clean shoulders, and you can often ride two
    abreast  safely  in  that area. There were a lot of pickups on the
    roads,  so  I  suspect  that you can hitch with your bike when the
    hills get too steep.

    Banff is  wonderful  (I  recommend  going  to  the White museum in
    town),  Take  the  glacier tour in glacier national park (Canada).
    Lake  Louise  is  pretty.  If you don't mind a monster hill, Mount
    Edith  Cavell (sp?) just south of Jaspar has some great views, but
    the  road  up  it  may  be  the toughest bicycling I've ever done.
    (Steep,  twisting, narrow, horribly paved; It's the only time I've
    ever  been  hoping  a  downhill  would end.) It's almost worth the
    climb.

    Waterton is  a  nice spot, take the boat out on the lake, and walk
    around where it lets you off.

    Sounds like  a great trip, but do ask about avoiding the hills, as
    it  is a mountanous region. (I was younger and more foolish, so we
    considerd the hills to be part of the fun.)

--David

    re all:
    
    OK - THE BIKES GO - I'LL LEAVE THE WIFE AT HOME!!!!!!!!  From all your
    information it sounds like an incredible place to see, with plenty of
    areas where we should be able to get in some nice reasonable rides. 
    And, where things aren't so reasonable, we'll do it in the car or on
    foot.
    
    thanks for all the ideas - keep it coming!  Anybody got anything around
    the South Dakota area (Rushmore, Black Hills, etc.) or the southern
    Saskatchewan province between Banff and Minneapolis?

>    the South Dakota area (Rushmore, Black Hills, etc.) or the southern
>    Saskatchewan province between Banff and Minneapolis?

So. Sask in general is pretty flat. Not even just relatively flat. A lot 
of folks ride thru there and I'd say the biking is pretty good, but not 
particularily scenic.

As for the Black Hills, there may be some riding to do there, but a lot 
of the roads I recall down there are hilly, curvy, and trafficy, esp. in 
the main part of summer. Later in the year it may calm down a bit, but 
certainly in the height of season you should be a pretty aggressive 
rider to take on the BH's. Now the Badlands (Theo. Roosevelt Nat Pk) in 
SW ND - now THERE's an nice place to ride, with a 27 (?) mile loop road, 
and just a couple of killer hills :-), and the potential opportunity to 
see what bison think of bicycles!
                                         ken

    Bison and bikers......hummmmm????  I have never thought of that.
    
    One time in CXO I was in mu small renault R10 and came across a
    VERY LARGE bull Bison.  We stopped as he was in the road.  He was
    bigger than the car! and had NO fear of us at all.  Beep! Beep!
    as best as a R10 can do, no luck.  I thought for sure he was going
    to flip us over, but he moved on.
    
    What is the REAL story with these beasties.  If you ran at one waiving
    your arms and yelled would they scram??
    
    John_who_has_no_REAL_bison_experience_one_on_one!

>    What is the REAL story with these beasties.  If you ran at one waiving
>    your arms and yelled would they scram??
    
Well, from having had a couple of these kinds of encounters, I'd say 
they'd either run, or flatten you, or ignore you completely. I've 
encountered behaviours 1 and 3 to date, thankfully. As for outrunning 
one of 'em, forget it. They can trot along all day at about 30-35 mph.

BTW, for you mtn. bikers, next time you're in Glendive, MT check out 
MakoSica State Park. Terrain includes thrilling climbs and descents, 
gullies and washouts, loose rock and generally rugged riding. Then, if 
you go *off road* it really gets ferocious! Check it out.....

                                   ken

I too just got back from there on Aug 1.  I did the Bikecentennial
Glacier - Waterton Loop.  About 10 days, 35 to 70 miles per day. 

It was a ten day high in all respects!

Yes, there are hills (and headwinds), but if you are using a car you 
can ride only the flatter areas if you wish.  That way, you still 
get to see the highlights (such as Logan Pass on the Highway to the 
Sun).  Crowsnest Pass, also a Continental Divide crossing, is much 
flatter and relatively short and easy.

Actually, I found the up to Logan Pass easier than many local (New
England) climbs.  It is a constant 5.6 percent, no "Terrible
Mountain" walls to climb.  On the other hand, it is a constant 5.6
percent with no levels on the way up -- but then you want to stop
occasionally to eat and photograph the views anyway.  If you do do
it by bike (with or without the wife), be aware that you must be to
the top by 11:00 am, so start soon after the sun comes up. 

Whatever you do, don't miss the unbelievable views and hiking 
because of biking the hills.  Glacier and Waterton -- just getting 
high writing this note.

	~Mike

        My wife and I had an harmless "encounter" with bison on our
        bikes in Yellowstone back in May '79.  We biked from Madison
        Campground to Old Faithful area and took the hiking
        trail/bikepath shortcut from the main road to the lower end of
        the geyser basin.  This saves a couple of miles if I remember
        right.

        The trail was not in great shape.  As we got deeper into the
        woods, we started hitting snow patches.  Eventually we needed
        to walk our bikes as the snow became constant and deep (waist
        high).  Finally we approached the geyser basin and the trail
        was once again rideable.  We went about 100 yards and came
        across two bison very close to the trail.  One was about 10
        feet from the trail, the other about 30 feet.  Both were
        laying down.

        If it wasn't for the snow we just crossed, we would have
        turned around and taken the longer route.  Instead, we got off
        our bikes and walked slowly past the bison.   Debbie stayed
        behind me by a large distance (she let me be the guinea pig). 
        I passed them OK, but just as she was passing the closer of
        the two he decided to stand up and stare her down.  Nothing
        happended, but she sure was scared.

        Debbie just read this over my shoulder and is shaking just
        thinking about it.
        
        /Jim Pappas 

	re .11:

>Yes, there are hills (and headwinds), but if you are using a car you 
>can ride only the flatter areas if you wish.  That way, you still 
>get to see the highlights (such as Logan Pass on the Highway to the Sun).  

    Sounds like a good setup.  Ride some areas.  Tour others on foot or by
    car.  
    
>Whatever you do, don't miss the unbelievable views and hiking 
>because of biking the hills.  Glacier and Waterton -- just getting 
>high writing this note.

    NO PROBLEM.  My wife is one of the GREAT relaxers of all time.  I, on
    the other hand, will have at least three camera-bodies and a full
    complement of lenses with me (only one body and two lenses in the bike
    bag though).  I plan to do PLENTY of viewing, wandering, camping,
    goofing off, and get in some riding too. 
    

    Mountains ARE!
    
    We've made it back from the wild (and hilly) West.  And, as usual, y'all
    were right.  There are some excellent places to ride in the parks.  You
    get a whole different perspective of the world from the back of a bike
    than you do inside a car.  As a photographer I concluded that the
    bicycle is an excellent way to go.  You can cover more territory than
    walking, but still get the same detailed view.
    
    In Yellowstone we drove both loops and it looked like both could be
    easily and comfortably ridden, but the lower loop is 90 miles and the
    upper is 74, so you'd have to be in good enough shape to do a bit of
    climbing and go those distances.
    
    I did some riding in the lower loop on the Yellowstone Lake side
    because I'm a wimp and didn't want to climb Craig Pass.  Being late in
    the year there was VERY little traffic and the roads are excellent.  
    
    In Glacier, the areas on either side of Going-to-the-Sun Road have lots
    of flat areas for riding.  All around Lake McDonald is great.  I even
    tried going up Logan Pass from the East side but I started too late in
    the afternoon and only made it up about 7 of the 11 miles before it
    started getting dark and I headed back down.  Next time!
    
    Waterton, just north of Glacier is also nice.  Its a small park and had
    a couple nice areas for riding.  
    
    Banff is an excellent place to ride.  The whole town is full of
    bicycles and you can go for miles out past the Vermillion Lakes,
    through the Fenland, along the Bow River, and all through the area.
    
    I met a number of people that were bicycling through the area.  The
    roads from Yellowstone north through Glacier and the Canadian rockies
    to Banff and into the Columbia icefields all had nice shoulders (many
    were marked frequently stating that they were bike lanes) and lots of
    good places to stop and rest.
    
    Next time I'll have to do fewer parks and more riding.
    

    RE: .14
    
    Spending a couple of years in Banff, I agree that you can find some
    real challenges when riding is concerned.  Although you can go for long
    scenic and relatively flat rides, there are some good short a steep
    rides.  A few suggestions:
    
    Banff to Johnston Canyon - 30 km: Short and moderate hills, nice if you
    have but  a few hours.  Make sure to bring some hiking boots to walk up
    along side the canyon to the "Ink Pots"  A MUST.
    
    Banff to Lake Louise (past Johnston Canyon) - Relatively flat until you
    turn off to ge to the lake.  Watch out for the Pepsis (Tourist that are
    empty from the neck up...).  Continue to the Valley of the Ten Peaks
    (Moraine Lake).
    
    Quick ride up to Norquay will get the ticker pumping.  Norquay is a ski
    hill only a couple of miles away from Banff but what a climb...
    
    A good loop for an evening ride would be from Banff to Lake Minnewanka
    via the Buffalo Paddock and return through tunnel mountain.  Moderate
    climb.
    
    For a full day ride, try Banff to Radium Hot Springs (about a century). 
    Godd variety and the hot springs are a welcome for those muscles. .
    Return the next day (if you can...)
    
    Eric_who_obviously_misses_the_place...
    
    P.S. Yes Banff to Jasper is always a nice ride, passing by the Columbia
    Icefields.