Conference noted::bicycle

    Hi JT.  You said you were looking for a sport touring bike.  Aren't the
    bikes you listed mountain bikes?  I know the Trek 420 is.  I don't
    think you want to do touring on a mountain bike.  If you plan to ride
    on the road there are many road bikes with a tripple crank.
    
    This may be above your price range but Buchikas has a Miyata 701.  It's
    aluminum, has a tripple crank and SLR brakes.  It's very light and
    rides great, really soaks up those bumps.  It's $550.

    I guess Im looking for a touring bike, but Id like to get triple
    crank  18-21 gears, and stay near the 400 dollar range.
     So what is available with some "Pro" components? Any low end bikes
    that are best buys for this range.  INdexed gears are nice.

    According to the catalog that I have, the Trek 420 is a road bike. It
    has a CroMoly frame, triple crank, Suntour components. But it doesn't
    have cantilever brakes. If you're planning to do any touring with
    panniers, you should check out the 520. It has a CroMoly frame, triple
    crank, bar-end index shifters, Shimano components, cantilever brakes
    and it comes with a Blackburn rack. I don't know the price, however.
    

    I guess I better check my specs.  Bought my son a trek 430 less than a
    month ago, it's a mountain bike.  Thought the 420 was too.  Maybe they
    use the same numbers.
    
    Nashbar usually has good value for the money but you don't get a Brand
    name bike.  I know they have a decent bike in that price range. Usually
    a good component set.  Almost anything you buy new will be 18 to 21
    speed indexed shifting (mostly 21).  Even the lower priced ones work
    very well.
    
    The lowest prices I have found have been at Naults in Manchester and S
    and W Sports in Concord, NH.  They both carry Trek and others.  Naults
    is not known for their service.  Buchika's in Salem NH is a little
    higher but will do almost anything to a bike to make you happy and they
    guarantee the fit.  They don't carry Trek but they carry many other
    good bikes.  I have noticed that Trek tends to put a higher level of 
    components on their bike for the money but don't limit yourself.  I
    don't think there are any significant differences in bikes at any given
    price range.  Ride a few and pick the one that is most comfortable for
    you.  That's the real answer.
    
    Earl (sorry for the mistake)

    Well, this isn't EXACTLY the same question since the bikes I'm looking
    at are a bit more than $400, but...
    
    I have the urge for an EVERYTHING bike - a road bike that will be quick
    and precise for unloaded riding in the 30-100+ mile range (no racing - I
    left my aero-body behind 20 years ago).  I'd like it to have a nice
    feel and be nimble.  AT THE SAME TIME, I want to be able to load up a
    set of panniers and rack bag, put the handlebar bag on, and maybe even
    a set of front panniers and ride loaded with something between the
    "credit-card" tour and the full "carry your whole tent, stove, world"
    tour.
    
    I've rummaged everything in here with titles on "tour", "trek",
    "cannondale", "Miyata"...  and it seems that the general feeling is
    that aluminum frames are fine for "big" people like me - in the 245 lb
    range, but steel forks are preferred.
    
    So, I've looked at 3 bikes here in MPO and could use comments on how
    folks feel they compare for ride, equipment, suitability, etc.  I have
    ridden a Cannondale and the Trek, but cannot find a Miyata in my size
    anywhere in town.  The Trek and Cannondale ride "differently", but
    neither seems "BETTER".  And, of course, neither was loaded with any
    bags.
    
    I checked a few size measurements on these bikes and don't see a WHOLE
    lot of difference between them and my Trek 660.  For example, the top
    tube on any of these is only about 1 cm longer and the wheelbase is
    within an inch.  On my Trek, if I put rear panniers on (small ones) I
    have to put them far back on the rack to keep my heels from rubbing
    them when I pedal (long cranks, long feet!).  Is the additional length
    in the chainstays?
    
    Anyhow, take a look down here, crank it up, and hit me with your best
    shot!
    
    
    			Cannondale		Trek		Miyata
    			ST600			1100		721A
    
    Frame		Aluminum		Aluminum	Aluminum
    
    Fork		Mang-Moly		Chrome-moly	Chrome-moly
    
    Crank		Mountain-LX		SR Edge		500 LX
    
    Derailleurs		Deore LX		Edge GX		500 LX
    
    Hub/rim/tire	Deore LX 36		Sansin 32	500 LX
    			Mistral M17		Matrix Titan	
    			Michelin Select		Matrix CD-3
    
    Price		$589			$549		$550
    
    
    My opinion is that the Trek, although they say it is a "touring" bike
    is not.  It uses 32 spoke wheels, and has no brazeons for the 4-point
    mounting rear rack or drillings for the front panniers, although one
    place in town says they have one with the eyelets on the fork.  
    
    The Cannondale (I rode an ST400 - same frame different components)
    seemed a BIT stiffer (harsher?) on turns...  But, it has full mounts,
    braze-ons, drillings, and ATB style brakes.  It also uses 36-spoke
    wheels.
    
    A friend has a Miyata 721.  She prefers it over the Cannondale she
    tried, but has no empirical reason.  She just prefers the way it
    handles and says it feels more like a sport bike than a tourer.
    
    So, have at it...  I don't really WANT to start a holy war, just after
    the best choice for what I'm likely to be doing!
    
    Thanks,
    David Perez - not losing much weight, but getting faster!

    I agree with you that the Trek 1100 really isn't an all-out
    touring bike.  It's built on the same frame as the 1000, which 
    is intended for entry-level racing.  Yeah, it has some braze-ons
    and the low gears of a touring bike, but its frame geometry isn't 
    intended for heavy loads.  From the type of load you describe, it
    sounds like you might be in for some fishtailing with an 1100.

	Sharon (soon to be the owner of one of these beasties... :-)

>    I have the urge for an EVERYTHING bike - a road bike that will be quick
>    and precise for unloaded riding in the 30-100+ mile range (no racing - I
>    left my aero-body behind 20 years ago).  I'd like it to have a nice
>    feel and be nimble.  AT THE SAME TIME, I want to be able to load up a
>    set of panniers and rack bag, put the handlebar bag on, and maybe even
>    a set of front panniers and ride loaded with something between the
>    "credit-card" tour and the full "carry your whole tent, stove, world"
>    tour.
    
Well, the quickest handling bikes you'll likely see are those designed 
for criterium racing. Try a few, just to get the feel - real stiff 
geometry, short wheelbase, handling borders on squirrely.... then 
discard the idea of owning one if you wanna tour on it! Then go out and 
try something in the category of a long-distance road racing frame, 
perhaps they'd call it an 'entry-level' racing frame, as prev. reply 
indicated. It should handle a lot more stable than the crit. bike. Now, 
imagine that with a set of racks, etc. that the handling will get 
somewhat closer to the handling of the crit bike (altho much slower, due 
to the weight). The weight of touring gear tends to make the bike wander 
just a bit more and be a touch harder to control; good riding technique 
will compensate A LOT for this, tho.

Anyway, I've done a number of tours on road-racing bikes (tent, stove, 
sleeping bag) and IMHO, it's the WAY TO GO! As for components, esp. for 
touring, go for heavy duty wheels; get a lighter set for unloaded riding 
if you want. I certainly wouldn't tour with anything but 36-spoke 
wheels, but you'll be able to get them on any of the bikes you were 
looking at.
                                               ken

    I'd say that says it all.
    
    MATT

  The Cannondale has better componets and ride better loaded with gear. Too
harsh a ride for ya... Get a set of tubular wheels for it ;-)

Tom_who_loves_to_ride_on_tubulars_but_can_no_longer_afford_it_for_everyday_use

    
    I agree with .7 and .8.
    
    I've done my touring the last umpteen years (ok, since 1982)
    on bikes that were designed for Road Racing.  Not short-course 
    American racing.  All-day-on-the-bike cross-country road racing.  
    Three of the tours have been light camping (much to the horror of 
    my friends when they hear I'm subjecting the bike to this!); the
    rest have been B&B touring.  
    
    I've been pretty happy with these bikes carrying a load.  (All
    three have been Italian, by the way; just a coincidence.)  The
    one that does best is the one with the SLX tubing ... and that's
    the one I've come in for most grief using on a tour.
    
    The downsides are: (1) no braze-ons for panniers, etc. (but this
    is surmountable; (2) vague sense of guilt.
    
    I bet you can find something in this category that suits you.
    Good luck!
    -john

    AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
    
    People, people, you gotta work with me on this...  I was HOPING this
    would be SIMPLE!  Ah, well, if it was easy anybody could do it!
    
    re .6:
    
>    I agree with you that the Trek 1100 really isn't an all-out
>    touring bike.  It's built on the same frame as the 1000, which 
>    is intended for entry-level racing.  Yeah, it has some braze-ons
>    and the low gears of a touring bike, but its frame geometry isn't 
>    intended for heavy loads.  From the type of load you describe, it
>    sounds like you might be in for some fishtailing with an 1100.

    Does "all-out touring bike" mean a mile long, slow turning, only
    comfortable when loaded with 50 pounds of stuff?  Kind of the
    full-sized station wagon of bikes?  If so, I'm after something closer
    to a sport sedan...  Not a ferrari, but something in between.
    
    
    re .7:
    
>Well, the quickest handling bikes you'll likely see are those designed 
>for criterium racing. Try a few, just to get the feel - real stiff 
>geometry, short wheelbase, handling borders on squirrely.... then 
>discard the idea of owning one if you wanna tour on it! Then go out and 
>try something in the category of a long-distance road racing frame, 
>perhaps they'd call it an 'entry-level' racing frame, as prev. reply 
    
    In the spectrum from criterium frames on one end to full-blown heavily
    loaded touring frames on the other, where does my Trek 660 fall?  I
    always regarded it as a sport frame (step below an entry-level racing
    frame).  The wheelbase doesn't seem exceptionally short to me, nor the
    handling squirrelly.  And yet, it has no braze-ons or such...  Can you
    give a couple examples of normally available long-distance road racing
    frames (Findable at a Trek or Cannondale dealer) if the 660 isn't one.
    
>Anyway, I've done a number of tours on road-racing bikes (tent, stove, 
>sleeping bag) and IMHO, it's the WAY TO GO! As for components, esp. for 
    
    How do you handle the problem of carrying loads?  My 660 works with a
    rack, but the load is fairly far back.  The bike rides OK, but the
    fish-tailing mentioned above is a good way to describe the sensation.
    And, if I don't keep the panniers all the way back on the rack, my feet
    hit the pannier.  How do you avoid this problem?
    
>touring, go for heavy duty wheels; get a lighter set for unloaded riding 
>if you want. I certainly wouldn't tour with anything but 36-spoke 
>wheels, but you'll be able to get them on any of the bikes you were 
>looking at.
    
    Wheels aren't a problem...  Even to haul my overlarge carcass around
    the block I use large flange Dura-Ace hubs with Mavic MA40 rims laced
    4-cross using 14-ga stainless DT spokes mounted with Kevlar belted
    tires.  I built these last year when I weighed about 285 and they
    worked great then, they should carry the load now!
    
    re .9:
    
>  The Cannondale has better componets and ride better loaded with gear. Too
>harsh a ride for ya... Get a set of tubular wheels for it ;-)
    
    Does this mean the Cannondale is a poor choice if I spend most of my
    time doing shorter, unloaded rides?  
    
    re .10:
        
>    I've done my touring the last umpteen years (ok, since 1982)
>    on bikes that were designed for Road Racing.  Not short-course 
>    American racing.  All-day-on-the-bike cross-country road racing.  
>    Three of the tours have been light camping (much to the horror of 
>    my friends when they hear I'm subjecting the bike to this!); the
>    rest have been B&B touring.  
    
    Can you give some specification on what makes these frames the kind of
    frames they are?  tube angles, wheelbase, etc...  Where do the three
    bikes I've listed fall in comparison to what you use?  
    
>    I bet you can find something in this category that suits you.
    
    Again using the spectrum from criterium to heavy-touring, am I correct
    that the Trek 1100 is closest to a racing frame, then the Miyata more
    of a compromise sport/light-touring, then the Cannondale as a bike that
    is happier with a load?  If so
    
    The concensus seems to be that a "touring" bike such as the ST600 may
    not be the best choice.  Rather, something like the Trek 1100 with
    suitable wheels, or the Miyata, would be closer to an all-around bike,
    fast and comfortable unloaded, while still providing SOME of the
    fittings for racks and such for loaded riding? 
    
    Jeez, I think I'm more confused now than I was before!  

    Just to let ya' know, I ender up buying a Specialized crossroads
    for 399 at goodales   Im pretty happy with it.

>    Does "all-out touring bike" mean a mile long, slow turning, only
>    comfortable when loaded with 50 pounds of stuff?  Kind of the
>    full-sized station wagon of bikes?  If so, I'm after something closer
>    to a sport sedan...  Not a ferrari, but something in between.


         I own one of the three, maybe four real touring bikes sold
         in the last few years. It is a Fuji Saratoga. I love it! I
         know most of the macho roadster types out there won't
         understand why, but who cares. The bike cost about $550 in
         early '89. I got it for about $440.

         This bike is "really" made for touring. The frame is fairly
         stretched out and likes to go in a straight line. Since I
         bought this bike to haul my son (and now a trailer) this is
         an important feature. No it is not a ferrari, but I doubt
         you will find as bid a difference between bikes as people
         will tell you. Clearly there is a bigger difference in
         handling between a ferrari and a station wagon :-).

         My bike has three water bottle braze-ons, front and rear
         rack braze-ons, extra spokes mounted to the chain stay, a
         40 spoke rear wheel, triple crank with 13-30 rear cluster,
         indexed shifting etc etc. I haven't tried panniers on the
         bike but it handled well with my som in a seat.

         Just my view......

         JC

>>Anyway, I've done a number of tours on road-racing bikes (tent, stove, 
>>sleeping bag) and IMHO, it's the WAY TO GO! As for components, esp. for 
>    How do you handle the problem of carrying loads?  My 660 works with a
>    rack, but the load is fairly far back.  The bike rides OK, but the
>    fish-tailing mentioned above is a good way to describe the sensation.
>    And, if I don't keep the panniers all the way back on the rack, my feet
>    hit the pannier.  How do you avoid this problem?
    
My solution was to: get the smallest set of panniers available (those of 
you who've toured will recognize this as an important concept), which 
also have a slanted front edge so your feet don't collide. If you have 
more stuff than will fit in the smallest panniers, leave it at home. If 
you absolutely gotta have more, a smallish handlebar bag works OK, esp. 
for small junk you might want in a hurry, and mine has a map pocket, 
which I've found useful when following route maps. For B&B tours w/sag 
like a Vermont Bike Touring trip I took years ago, the HB bag is plenty.
Keeping the weight down and shifting some of it forward are excellent 
ways to retain decent handling.

As for what's a currently avail. road-racing bike of the type we been 
talking about, ya got me there! I seem to have enough bikes that I never 
go around test-riding them in the stores...
                                                    ken

    
    		    Head     Seat	
    		    Angle    Angle	Wheelbase	Feel	Intended Use
    		    --------------------------------------------------------
    Criterium	    74-75    74-75	Very Short	Stiff	0-100km rides
    							Squirelly
    
    Road Racing	    73.5-75  73-73.5	Fairly Short	Light	100km+ rides
    							Precise
    							Firm(SL)
    							Stiff(SLX)
    
    Sport/Touring   73-73.5   73	Average		Pliant	Casual use
    
    Full Touring    72-73    72-73	Long		Heavy	150km+ w/load
    							Stable
    
    Criterium bikes make bad touring machines because 1) their stiffness
    makes for a punishing ride, and 2) their more upright seat tube
    transmits all this shock to the rider's back.  Road racing bikes, 
    on the other hand, have a more comfortable ride, with the quick
    turning one would expect out of a racer.  SLX or similar
    tubing (somewhat stiff for normal riding conditions) makes the handling 
    work better under a load.  

    I recent  bought the ST600.  I rode the miyata and liked the ride and
    handling unloaded but when pushed it seems a little loose in the back. 
    I'm about 200lbs.  I was concerned that when I loaded it up it would
    get much worse.  The 721 is not intended for heavy touring, no braze
    ons on the front, smaller tires, non-cantilever brakes (although they
    are nice).  If you put larger tires on it there is no quick release for
    the brakes to make them easy to get off.
    
    I don't know if the bike you want exists.  Personaly I find the
    cannondale responsive for a touring bike.  I do a lot of unloaded
    riding and like it.  It has the longest wheelbase of the bikes you
    mentioned (longer chainstays) and should give the most room for your
    paniers.  If you can get one for that price it's a great deal.  I paid
    $700 for mine and the factory list is $750. 

    I happen to have the 1990 Cannondale cat. in my office.  The ST1000
    looks like it is a nice "touring" bike @28.5 pounds.  This includes
    a Brooks Team Pro saddle, front racks, rear rack, 3 bottle cages,
    Esge fenders, and has cantilever brakes, a triple sealed headset,
    Suntour Grease Guard BB, and sealed hubs.  Looks as if they thought
    it may get ridden in the rain :-).
    
    I think the 28.5lbs is with out water in the bottles!  But is still
    a light bike. And it has ROUND chain rings unlike the ST600.
    
    My big beef with cannondale is WHY don't they make a touring/tandem
    frame set in 24", 23 to 25 is a big jump.  60-61 is ok but 63.5
    is TOOO big.

     re .13:

>         I own one of the three, maybe four real touring bikes sold
>         in the last few years. It is a Fuji Saratoga. I love it! I
    
    Is this an aluminum or steel frame?  One of the local stores mentioned
    the Fuji Saratoga, but admitted they have NOT had one in a LONG time.  
    They indicated they could probably get one for me, but had little
    interest in talking about it.
    
    re .14:
        
>My solution was to: get the smallest set of panniers available (those of 
>you who've toured will recognize this as an important concept), which 
>also have a slanted front edge so your feet don't collide. If you have 
    
    Good grief, it looks like it I did something right.  I bought a set of
    Madden panniers that are small and have just the slanted edge you
    mentioned.  Not because I knew anything, but because they were on sale
    for $25/set!  
    
>If you absolutely gotta have more, a smallish handlebar bag works OK, esp. 
>for small junk you might want in a hurry, and mine has a map pocket, 
>which I've found useful when following route maps. For B&B tours w/sag 
    
    I think I'm gettin' it...  I got the small handlebar bag - small enough
    so I CAN'T put enough junk into it to screw up the steering, but big
    enough to hold the odd hanky and other little goodies!
    
    re .15:
    
>    Criterium bikes make bad touring machines because 1) their stiffness
>    makes for a punishing ride, and 2) their more upright seat tube
>    transmits all this shock to the rider's back.  Road racing bikes, 
>    on the other hand, have a more comfortable ride, with the quick
>    turning one would expect out of a racer.  SLX or similar
>    tubing (somewhat stiff for normal riding conditions) makes the handling 
>    work better under a load.  
    
    Well, it isn't SLX, but my 660 is double-butted True Temper chromo. 
    What I don't know is the angles.  I was bored yesterday, so I took my
    tape measure and got myself to some dealers...
    
    Found that the Trek 1100 and Miyata 721 are the same dimension in top
    tube, chainstay, and wheelbase as my 660, and they both showed the same
    seattube and head angles.  I don't know what the angles on the 660 are,
    so I don't know if it is the same as the other two.  BUT, unfortunately, 
    the Miyata 721A does not come in a size larger than 60 cm (about
    23.5"), so it is out since I would like at least a 62 cm and would be
    happy with a 63 cm (about 25").  
    
    I rode another 1100 (took the time to have them set the seat and stem
    heights better) and liked the way the frame felt.  Also, the brakes
    were excellent.  BUT (and please no flames from 1100 owners) - the rest
    of the bike did NOT feel good at all.  The shifting was not very
    positive and precise - one of the things I like about my Ultegra/Dura
    Ace setup is that when I move the shift level there is NO doubt where
    its going - the shift is always VERY positive.  In comparison, the 1100
    just didn't have anywhere close to the same nice feel or action.  And
    those wheels - does a 32-spoke, 15-ga, 3-cross wheel on a 62cm frame
    (which I assume is for a fairly large person) sound like a combination
    sport/touring wheel?  
    
    re .16:
    
>    I don't know if the bike you want exists.  Personaly I find the
>    cannondale responsive for a touring bike.  I do a lot of unloaded
>    riding and like it.  It has the longest wheelbase of the bikes you
>    mentioned (longer chainstays) and should give the most room for your
>    paniers.  If you can get one for that price it's a great deal.  I paid
>    $700 for mine and the factory list is $750. 
    
    You're exactly what I have been looking for.  In comparison to everything
    else I looked at, the ST600 is almost 4" longer - 2.75 of it in the
    chainstays.  How is it unloaded.  I assume I'll do probably 80% or more
    of my riding unloaded, so good performance and comfort unloaded are
    very important.  Of all the choices, if I decide I want something more
    suited to touring it sounds like the Cannondale is the way to go.  I
    even have a local dealer that will get me one for $590, although I have
    to give them a $50 downpayment for them to order it.  I WISH I could
    find one to try out locally!
    
    I have to apologize for confusing things worse, but I have a
    question...  There is a local custom shop that advertises that they
    can/will braze on the eyelets and other desired mounts and stuff for
    rear and/or front racks and such.  Then a nice IMRON paint job.  Is
    this a reasonable alternative?  I'm leery of letting anyone fiddle
    around with heat and brazing and such on my frame...  has anyone had
    any experience with having this done?

    
    I've had a braze-on replaced, and then the bike repainted (Imron).
    Seems fine.  But it's a shame to do this to a new bike.  The whole
    process is disruptive and not cheap.
    
    -john

I had a bike that needed some braze-ons etc. so I took it to the shop 
and they told me the whole thing would run about 150$ (~~ 6 yrs ago) 
incl. the paint job. Coincidentally the owner had just repainted his own 
531 DB frame (he had built it and raced it a couple years) and was 
selling it for (surprise!) 150$. So I skipped upgrading the old frame 
and made it into a track bike. Later I had occasion to have another 
frame re-painted and braze-ons applied, and it came out beautiful. 
However, I'd already cannabalized the parts to build up the other frame 
I got from them, sigh....

Anywhee, I'd suggest NOT munging with a new frame as it can be a 
significant part of the cost of another frame. Wait til you ride it for 
a while, if you really like it and the paint's getting beat, then fork 
over to get it re-painted and brazed.....
                                               ken

         The Saratoga is Cromoly Ishiwata triple butted (?).

         The bike weighs about 25 pounds. That is about standard or
         perhaps a bit above standard for tourers.

         It seems to me that the more recent models come with
         barcon shifters.

         I noticed a little reluctance from dealers in talking about
         the saratoga when I bought it in Jan 89. I felt that it was
         because touring bikes are not "cool" anymore. They couldn't
         be bothered with the old news kinds of bikes. New and
         exciting only. Frankly, I found it sort of frustrating...
         Seems fitting that the only guy who didn't give me a load
         of baloney about touring bikes was the one who got the
         sale. I actually hadn't realized that until now.

         If you can't find one to ride, then I wouldn't recommend
         having the shop order it unless you can have them do it
         with no obligation to you. It doesn't seem likely that it
         will work out that way. I like the bike, but who says that
         you will....

         Good Luck,

         JC

    Most of my riding is unloaded, like you.  My ST600 is a little stiff,
    all Cannondales are, but is still comfortable.  It's Very stable yet
    easy to dodge surprize potholes, etc.  No mistake, it's not a racing
    bike, but I feel it is an excellent compromise if you need to do some
    loaded touring too.  It's light for a touring bike, 24 Lbs.  For me
    that only means it's easier to lift onto the bike rack.
    
    I live in Bedford NH. and work in Nashua I'm more than willing to let
    you ride mine.  It's a 23" frame but I put a higher stem on it, I'm
    6'1".
    
    I had a very difficult locating a 23" frame.  Ended up going way up
    north for it.
    
    The ST600 has all the braze ons you could want.  Three water bottles,
    front and rear racks.  Personnaly, I would not have baze ons attached
    to an aluminum frame like the c-dale by anyone other than the factory. 
    Re-tempering of the aluminum is too critical.
    
    Give me a call of you want more information or to set up a ride.
    
    Earl
    264-4579

    re: last several:

    As far as the Fuji Saratoga - I talked to the only local place that
    would even talk about the bike and they are seriously disinterested in
    getting one unless I want to give them 100% of list UP FRONT!  I get
    the distinct impression that they are not interested.  At least the
    Cannondale dealer only wants $50.  

    As far as add-on braze-ons - I definitely won't buy anything new that
    I'm going to have to modify.  If I do anything, I'll have my 660 (which
    I've put about 2500 miles on) modified.  But, as more information comes
    in I"m leaning more and more toward keeping the 660 as it is and either
    selling it or having 2 bikes, and looking further afield for a
    Cannondale to try.  I spoke to a shop within a couple hour drive that
    has a 23" that I can try.  

    re -.1:

    >I live in Bedford NH. and work in Nashua I'm more than willing to let
    >you ride mine.  It's a 23" frame but I put a higher stem on it, I'm
    >6'1".

    I appreciate the offer, but being in Minneapolis, it would make for a
    fairly long day!  Fortunately, as I said above, I found one in the
    direction I'll be heading this weekend, so I'll give it a try.  
        
    >The ST600 has all the braze ons you could want.  Three water bottles,
    >front and rear racks.  Personnaly, I would not have baze ons attached
    >to an aluminum frame like the c-dale by anyone other than the factory. 
    >Re-tempering of the aluminum is too critical.

    Yeah, common sense is starting to prevail - I think I'll just order
    something with the right fittings and not have someone fiddling around!
    

    FANFARE PLEASE...
    
    After much deliberation, testing, research, advice from folks in here,
    wandering, and just plain guessing...
    
    There is now parked in the garage, a brand new, shiny, sparkling,
    bright red
    
    			Cannondale ST600
    
    OK, silliness aside, after 5 days and about 100 miles, I have concluded
    that this is far and away the best thing I've ever ridden.
    
    I don't want to start a holy war, and I love my Trek 660, but this
    Cannondale is incredible.  It is more comfortable, faster, and an
    absolute joy to ride.  It feels like it has very nearly the quickness
    of my 660, but is much more stable and smooth.  The frame feels rock
    steady but still very quick - not a station wagon at all.  The
    cantilever brakes stop this thing absolutely even with soaking wet
    rims, and the SLR brakes were always VERY controllable.  The Deore
    derailleurs make shifting very quick and precise, and the shifting
    under load (hyperglide?) is extremely easy. The 21-speed close-ratio
    shifting with half-step + granny chainrings makes finding just the
    right gear a joy.  The Michelin Select tires seem sturdy and roll very
    easily.  Even the saddle is quite comfortable, although I haven't the
    foggiest idea what "VETTASKIN" is.
    
    It may appear a little harsh to a lighter rider, but with my 240 lb
    carcass on the saddle (I think I'm the equivalent of a normal rider
    plus loaded panniers) it feels just great.
    
    Anyhow, once I rode one of these there was NO comparison with either
    the Miyata 721A or the Trek 1100.  
    
    I only made one change, and that was to put a set of the Spenco grips
    on the bars.
    
    HOWEVER, on the downside: the Mistral M17 rims SUCK - BIG TIME!!!!!!!
    The dealer hand-trued the rear before I took delivery.  In 100 miles
    over 4 days, I've had to retrue it 4 times.  I mean OUT-OF-TRUE a LOT.  
    Tomorrow I'll give Now Sports a shot at fixing it, but I think I'll
    wind up having to talk to Cannondale.  This is exactly the same problem
    I used to have on the Trek until I installed a set of Mavic MA-40 rims. 
    I built the wheels myself, trued them once at about 200 miles, and
    haven't had to retrue in the last 1200.  If I have to I'll put Mavics
    on the Cannondale too, but somebody is gonna listen to some screaming
    first!  I would think it was just a bad rim, but even the FRONT one has
    had to be trued 3 times!  I would figure I'm just too heavy for the
    Mistral rims, but considering that a lighter rider could carry enough
    additional gear to equal my weight this doesn't fit.  Suggestions?
    
    Do any of you other Cannondale owners know if Rhode Gear Flick Stands
    come in a size for the Cannondale.  I haven't seen one and I'd like to
    put one on.

    About your wheel problems, I'd blame the spokes before blaming the
    rims, and I'd guess that they weren't stressed when the wheel was
    built. Since you sound prepared to tackle wheels, I'd recommend that
    you do the following:
    
    1. Standing with the wheel vertical on the ground between your legs,
    take an old screwdriver and jam the handle down all the spoke
    crossings. Don't use *all* your weight, but lean hard enough that the
    spokes look quite bent and go really tight.
    
    This process takes up the initial give in the spokes and stretches them
    slightly, so after you do this they'll be noticeably slacker.
    
    2. Retighten and true the spokes. Aim for a fairly high spoke tension,
    so that turning the spoke nipple becomes difficult.
    
    
    Don't bother doing this yourself if you're not confident! However if
    you do, I bet your wheels will settle down.
    
    
    Rod

    Congratulations.  Glad to see you bought the ST600.  I love mine. 
    Guess I've been lucky but I haven't had any wheel problems as yet,
    (about 600 miles).  I did notice recently there is no fine adjustment
    for the rear brake.  I'm planning on trying my own add on to solve that
    problem.  Does someone make one?  It seems like an easy thing to fix.
    
    Earl

Hi PEREZ,

I've got a couple piercing questions,

PIERCING QUESTION #1: I can believe that the CANNONDALE has less
flex than the TREK 660, that should be because the Cdale is 
aluminum and big tube vs cromoly/little tube however I have
a TREK 1100 and it doesn't appear to have any flex in it. Did
you not like the 1100 for that reason or was it some other reason?

PIERCING QUESTION #2: Is the best way to buy a new set of wheels 
to get them made by hand? I've bought a couple sets from cashbaaaa
and specialized and had to have them tightened and trued, in the 
future I think I'll get them handmade by a local craftsman type.
It looks like the machine -made wheels get finished.

Fred Mudgett

>PIERCING QUESTION #2: Is the best way to buy a new set of wheels 
>to get them made by hand? I've bought a couple sets from cashbaaaa

Hmmm. How's a Piercing, Resounding "maybe?" go over?

Hand-built wheels vary all over the map in quality. I got a set of HB's 
on my Eisentraut, guy was very proud of them. Pride's one thing, but 
these are terrible wheels. They need frequent attention, but I don't 
feel like re-building them right now, as that's a project for when I 
have more spare wheels around! The BEST wheel you're ever likely to see 
WILL be a hand-made one, but builders aren't all created equal. As far 
as commercial wheels go, most of them will at least have final truing, 
etc. done by hand, but I suspect ordering from a big M.O. place they 
have a small army of people building their "stock" wheel combos and 
their maestro comes out to bat when you order a real fancy or unusual 
combination of things. Also, in some cases, you may be able to specify 
if you are a heavier rider or want the wheels built "extra-tight" and 
you'll probably get something closer to what you want.

I once had the mis-fortune to deal with wheels from an (in)famous frame 
builder in Winnipeg. They had gone a bit out-of true, but the wheels 
were laced SO tight that I broke several spokes trying to LOOSEN them! 
Fortunately, this guy's rep. spread around our area and we didn't ever 
see too many more of his frames or wheels....
                                  ken

    re .25:
    
>    About your wheel problems, I'd blame the spokes before blaming the
>    rims, and I'd guess that they weren't stressed when the wheel was
>    built. Since you sound prepared to tackle wheels, I'd recommend that
>    you do the following:
>    
>    1. Standing with the wheel vertical on the ground between your legs,
>    take an old screwdriver and jam the handle down all the spoke
>    crossings. Don't use *all* your weight, but lean hard enough that the
>    spokes look quite bent and go really tight.
    
    This was EXACTLY the second thing I did (the first night I just
    retrued)...  It helped reduce the amount of warpage.
    
>    Don't bother doing this yourself if you're not confident! However if
>    you do, I bet your wheels will settle down.
    
    Too late - THE SAGA CONTINUES (sorry guys, its long-winded but I'm
    still a trifle peeved)!!!!!!!  Last night I psent a little time on the
    truing stand and carefully stressed the wheel from each side after each
    round of truing.  Was somewhat better.  Finally got it to the point
    where it was "OK".
    
    Tonight I went out for my after-work ride.  Put on the shorts and
    shirt, shoes and all...  then took the bike off the rack...  AND SAT IT
    ON THE REAR RIM...  TOTAL BLOWOUT!  Tire blown off the rim.  I took the
    tube out (complete with 4 inch rip), and started looking at the rim. 
    About a fourth of the spokes were THROUGH THE NIPPLES AND STICKING
    THROUGH THE RIM TAPE!  All the freewheel side were significantly too
    long.  And, the rim had assumed the shape of a strung bow!  I mean
    we're talking about at least a 2" warp.  After speaking loudly and
    eloquently about parentage, sexual preference, bodily functions, and
    other such profundities, with appropriate gestures and histrionics, I
    got in the car and headed for Now Sports where I'd bought the bike.  
    
    After some soft but emphatic discussion the wheel builder (not the
    mechanic, this guy JUST builds SOME wheels) decided he would replace
    the rim and argue with Cannondale later (he admitted there was
    something SIGNIFICANTLY wrong with the rim.  I requested that since he
    was rebuilding anyway, please build the wheel 4-cross.  No sweat, we
    all parted friends.  
    
    An hour later I got a phone call from him.  He had called his boss (the
    overall service manager) to see if they had the longer spokes at
    another store, and was told - have me bring in THE WHOLE BIKE so they
    could look at it, and then they'd talk to Cannondale, and the bike
    could sit there while they went through the steps, and HOPEFULLY they
    COULD GET IT FIXED THIS WEEK!!!!!  
    
    So, I called the boss directly and - as it turns out they WON'T need
    the whole bike, the new wheel will be ready at 5:00 tomorrow, and it
    WILL be laced 4-cross.  We'll see how it turns out.  
    
re .26:    
    
>    Congratulations.  Glad to see you bought the ST600.  I love mine. 
>    Guess I've been lucky but I haven't had any wheel problems as yet,
    
    Thanks.  I agree with the folks at the store that the wheel problem is
    a fluke.  Something is wrong with this rim.  Either they screwed up
    building it, it was warped, or something.  I can't imagine that it is
    typical of all Mistral rims.
    
>    (about 600 miles).  I did notice recently there is no fine adjustment
>    for the rear brake.  I'm planning on trying my own add on to solve that
>    problem.  Does someone make one?  It seems like an easy thing to fix.
    
    Mine has a fine adjustment screw for the rear brake.  What it doesn't
    have is a cam for releasing the brake.  On the back you pull the cable
    that straddles the cantilevers out of one side to release the brake. 
    I'd like to get a quick release cam, but it isn't a big problem.  Does
    yours not have the screw adjustment?
    
    re .27:
    
    Now, Fred, be NICE!
    
>PIERCING QUESTION #1: I can believe that the CANNONDALE has less
>flex than the TREK 660, that should be because the Cdale is 
>aluminum and big tube vs cromoly/little tube however I have
>a TREK 1100 and it doesn't appear to have any flex in it. Did
>you not like the 1100 for that reason or was it some other reason?

    It was NOT the frame on the Trek.  The bike rode fine as far as the
    frame went, and the brakes were excellent.  What I DIDN'T like was the
    shifting.  It was soft and mushy and didn't smack into gears with the
    kind of authority I'm used to with my Ultegra/600EX/Dura-Ace
    components.  To top it off, they used 32-spoke wheels laced 3-cross
    which I feel are too light for my weight.  But, the frame felt fine and
    smooth, and if I wasn't after something with lots of mounts and
    fittings and such...  
    
    
>PIERCING QUESTION #2: Is the best way to buy a new set of wheels 
>to get them made by hand? I've bought a couple sets from cashbaaaa
>and specialized and had to have them tightened and trued, in the 
>future I think I'll get them handmade by a local craftsman type.
>It looks like the machine -made wheels get finished.

    Like the previous replies said, I don't think there's anything magical
    about hand-made versus machine-made/hand-finished wheels.  Properly
    done, machine-built wheels are consistent and can be every bit as good
    as a hand-made.  Either can work just fine.  Personally, I think the
    best way to handle your own needs is to learn to build your own.  That
    way you can set the wheel up the way you want - spoke gauge, tightness,
    cross, etc.  And you learn to "feel the wheel" which makes it easier to
    adjust and true when you have a problem.  Its also cheaper - last year
    they wanted $30 and 2 weeks to build my wheels.  I bought the truing
    stand for $29, dishing tool for $7, and went to the library for a book
    on wheel building.  It took me an evening while watching tv to build my
    first wheel (about 3 hours) - trued it, adjusted again about 200 miles
    later, and haven't had to true either of them in over 1000 miles.
    
    And, if these Mistrals don't provide the SAME kind of reliability, I'll
    pick up another set of Mavic MA-40s and lace them up!

    re: .1653
    
    >Do any of you other Cannondale owners know if Rhode Gear Flick Stands
    >come in a size for the Cannondale.  I haven't seen one and I'd like to
    >put one on.
    
    I have a flick stand for my Cannondale SR600.  It is made for big tubes
    and it works great.  I have not seen it in any catalogs, I bought mine
    at a local bike store.  A Rhode Gear dealer should be able to order one
    for you.
    
    /Jim Pappas

    Re. Cannondale ST600
    
    	GOOD Choice!
    
    Re. Wheels
    
    	Yep - Build another set of MA40's - those puppies just
    aren't going to last.
    
    Re. Flick Stand
    
    	Had one on my pre fat C-Dale but haven't found one for
    the 3.0 yet....shouldn't be long before they catch on though.
    

    
    By the way, I rode with a friend today who just got back from
    a shake-down tour around the Outer Banks with his new ST-1000.
    
    He has nothing but praise for it.  Rock steady, great breaks,
    good for loaded touring (camping).
    
    -john

    regarding wheels,
    
    I am a somewhat large person at 6'7" and about 240+ pounds.  When I
    bought my Cannondale SR600 from Gamache's in Fitchburg, George Gamache
    said he wanted to upgrade me from 32 to 36 spoke wheels.  I decided to
    get Mavic MA-40 rims at the same time.  The bike ended up coming in
    with 36 spoke wheels (they must do this automatically with the larger
    frames) but I already decided I wanted the Mavics so George had the
    wheels built up anyway.  He charged me an extra $50 to get the Mavics.
    
    The wheels have been flawless.
    
    /Jim Pappas
                    
    

    Well, I probably shouldn't turn this into a Cannondale note, but...
    
    This weekend (between drenching downpours and flash floods) I had a
    chance to try the ST600 loaded.  Absolutely, WONDERFUL.  I hung the
    panniers on the back with fruit and snacks, sweatshirts in case the
    temp dropped, rain gear in case it poured, bike locks and cables, and
    other assorted crap.  I added my rack bag with camera, lenses, film,
    and (also) assorted junk, and went out for a few dozen miles of rolling
    hills with a group of other sedate folks.  
    
    I ran the gamut (for me) from climbing short, sharp hills in the 28-30
    to running down a mile+ hill at 48-50 mph in the 50-13 gear.  At all
    times, especially at high speeds, the bike was VERY solid and stable. 
    I wouldn't have ever let it get close to 40 mph if it hadn't been. 
    And, even in a downpour, the brakes are astonishing compared to the
    600EX sidepulls I'm used to.  These cantilevers hauled me down from 45
    to 0 in nothing flat (no, it wasn't raining at the time - clear and
    dry) for the STOP sign that was RIGHT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STINKING
    HILL!  Even soaking wet I had MORE than enough braking to lock up a
    wheel if I wanted.
    
    It also gave me a chance to try the new wheel they built me.  So far,
    so good.  They rebuilt with 14 ga spokes, 4-cross, on a new Mistral M17
    rim.  So far, after the inital retruing at 15 miles, I am happy to say
    the wheel has been dead on for the last 100 or so.  Time will tell.
    
    The only problem I've had so far is the chip I took out of the paint 
    on the downtube when the pump came off the top tube on a bump.  I now
    have a velcro strap to hold things together, but I'm still THOROUGHLY
    ANNOYED at the chip!

>>    The only problem I've had so far is the chip I took out of the paint 
>>    on the downtube when the pump came off the top tube on a bump.  I now
>>    have a velcro strap to hold things together, but I'm still THOROUGHLY
>>    ANNOYED at the chip!
    
    	If it makes you feel any better, the chip would have turned
    into a *rust* spot in the rain if you had purchased a steel 
    framed machine.  Just look at it as if your bike just lost
    it's virginity and now you won't be afraid to use it.  That 
    could be male/female not ment to be degrading to either, I 
    know I'm gonna catch it but I just couldn't resist :)
    
    						_Jerry

>    If it makes you feel any better, the chip would have turned
>    into a *rust* spot in the rain if you had purchased a steel 
>    framed machine.  
    
    Good point...  I'll still feel better once I get some touch-up paint
    and fix it though!  
    
    D

It's time to consider getting a new bicycle.  Not for me, but my
father's third bike.  

Remember the note about how to verify a bike-aholic, one who
schedules life around TOSRV?  Well, that's Dad.  He's biked 19 of
those rides in twenty years.  Dad is now 67 years old and a
Christmas tree farmer, so he spends very little time "exercising"
and a lot of time "working".  He preps about 200 miles solo in
March and April, then a warmup trip of 60 to 80 miles, then the
210 of TOSRV.  He then hangs the bike up for the summer, having
earned bragging rights for another year.  As for the other
bike-aholic criteria, Dad wouldn't understand the questions OR
the answers. 

Dad's first bike is the 1939 Roadmaster, black, racing tires,
single speed, coaster brakes, upright handles.  The bike was
Grandpa's answer to "Can I have a driver's license?"  He biked
his first 11 TOSRVs on that Roadmaster, until he got a hole in
the front tire.  Dad was having trouble finding a new tire with 
the right bead, etc, about the same time as my sister wanted to
upgrade her bike.  So ... 

Dad's second bike is the 1977 Schwinn Varsity, yellow, ten speed,
caliper brakes, upright handles.  Dad accepted the hand-me-down
bike graciously, but still complains that it's heavier than the
Roadmaster.  He's ridden the last eight TOSRVs with it.  

I'm considering a new bike for Dad, because I want us both to
move faster, perhaps up to 14-15 mph.  Yeah, I realize that I
could speed up with practice, so I'm scheduling more cycling time
for me, but I can only change Dad's equipment, not the man
himself!  He'll still pedal in white sneakers, walking shorts,
boxer shorts underwear, tank-top undershirt, and a loose
long-sleeved cotton plaid shirt.  I'm hoping that he might
increase his cranking to 45 rpm to keep up with me, but I'm
fearing that I'll be slowed down to his speed.  Since I live in
Massachusetts and he lives in Ohio, the actual TOSRV is our only
cycling together.  Just imagine, my spending Mother's Day with
Dad! 

My siblings have agreed to pitch in for a Christmas bike.  I was
aiming for the $400 - 500 range, something similar to my Fuji. 
Dad does change flat tires, but takes his bike to the shop for
its spring cleaning, so I wanted to buy him a bike sold and
serviced by his trusted local shop in Canton, Ohio.   My plan is
to take Dad to the shop and to buy the bike together when I'm
visiting for the holidays.  So I called his shop, Dell's Bicycle
Store ... the owner recommended a Univega.   I'm underwhelmed! 

Dell recommended a cross bike, 21" frame, 27" wheels, aluminum
rims, upright handles, cantilever brakes from the outside like a
mountain bike, clutch shifting on the right/rear derailleur, 
$250 for a 12-speed or $300 for an 18-speed.  I think he said 
that this might be a Univega Action, Activa Country, or Activa
200.  Other brands he carries in that store are Giant (who makes
Schwinn, right?) and Ross. 

Am I right to be underwhelmed by the choices?  Can someone 
recommend another store in or near Canton?  (He lives in Zoar, 
near Bolivar, I77, Dover, New Philly, etc.)  What would you do 
next?

Sally

    
    First off, Sally, thanks for the great story!  Your dad certainly
    deserves whatever kind of bike suits him!  
    
    A few brief comments only, for now.  You are probably right to be
    underwhelmed.  My biggest recommendation is to *forget* MTB-style
    straight bars.  Get drops or (yes) those "moustache" bars.  TOSRV
    isn't a ride around the block, after all.  You need something more
    comfortable than MTB handlebars.
    
    As to the moustache bars, this leads me to say, "Look at the
    Bridgestone XO-2" (which I haven't done, but you ought to check
    it out).  
    
    And consider weight - remember, your Dad complained about the
    Varsity's being too heavy (which it is).  So you might think of
    opting for something like a low- or mid-end Trek.  Or maybe a Bianchi.
    
    BTW, Schwinn doesn't make or own Giant - it's another company.
    What other shops-and-brands are available in the area?  The shop
    you describe sounds like a fairly low-end shop, judging from the brands
    you mention.
    
    Good luck!
    -john

    
    Sally,
        From your note it's not clear exactly what type of bike
    you want. If your dad only rides on the road, then (I have 
    to agree with John) go for a light road bike. Before I 
    bought my Cannondale, I pondered a Trek (800/1000/1200???)
    and a Schwinn 354. Both are light, aluminum road bikes at around
    $400.                               
    
    doug
    

Sally,

Here is a list of things to be sure you get on his next bike;

1) Wheels that are strong. Size 700c or 27".Whats the difference?  700c
   tires tend to be aimed at higher pressure low drag riding, they are making
   them in fatter sizes for cross use. If you're looking for high quality
   fast tires 700c has more of a selection. The 27" tires are easier to find in 
   every bike store from K-Mart on up. They won't be able to handle the high 
   psi like a the ones found at good bike stores though.

   Make sure the rims are strong. A hard-anodized box section rim with spoke 
   eyelets tend to be the strongest/lightest rim available, it's also the most
   money. 

2) Index Shifting. Index shifting is here to stay. The old friction shifting is 
   not easiest shifting to work with. Most new bikes come with index shifting,
   but you want to be sure.

3) FIT. Make sure you get a bike that fits. It is very easy to buy a bike that 
   to big or small when the store drops the price. Handle bar style is up to 
   the rider. Im sure your father will like the MT-bike style bars and levers.
   While this isn't the best position, some people like the stablility of a
   wide mt-bike handle bar. I knoe my wife rides faster on a mt-bike style 
   bar than she did on a drop handle bar. She was more comfortable.

Tom

     Second hand "showroom" condition TREK 1000 for sale in this note
     for $400.00...
    
       Chip

>   Make sure the rims are strong. A hard-anodized box section rim with spoke 
>   eyelets tend to be the strongest/lightest rim available, it's also the most
>   money. 

A NON-anodized box section rim (with eyelets) is stronger.  The
anodizing is a surface effect only, but tends to initiate cracks
around spoke holes.

The price of anodized rims is higher because people think they are stronger.

Anodizing is produces a hard surface, but not as hard as
road grit.  The anodizing on the side of the rim will wear
off after using the brakes a bit.

-Jeff Bell

          <<< Note 1653.42 by DANGER::JBELL "Zeno was almost here" >>>
                                 -< bare rims >-

>   Make sure the rims are strong. A hard-anodized box section rim with spoke 
>   eyelets tend to be the strongest/lightest rim available, it's also the most
>   money. 

!A NON-anodized box section rim (with eyelets) is stronger.  The
!anodizing is a surface effect only, but tends to initiate cracks
!around spoke holes.

I've heard this too.

However, I ride year round and pretty much trash my rims as a result from
the elements.  What has happened more than once now is the spoke nipples
freeze up so I can't retrue the wheel and then I see spoke breakage
at the nipple.  It's true that the anodizing wears off from braking,
and in fact I would worry a little about the rim thinning out on the sides.

I actually think the anodizing is of some benefit in my case because
a pair of Super Champion "Gentlemen" rims I once had got really corroded
looking overall after a couple of winters.  The Mavic rims MA 40 rims
I've been using since can be washed off and don't get that way.  But there's
still that problem around the eyelets and I more or less consider rims
expendable after a few years "abuse".

!The price of anodized rims is higher because people think they are stronger.

They probably get what the market will bear.  The anodized rims look
nice and "hi tech" too - always a factor with this stuff.

- Jim