Conference noted::bicycle

    I would look at the Burley, about the same price and American made.
    
    steve

    I looked around to try to rent a decent tandem and couldn't find a
    place that rented them. However any store that sells them will let
    you demo one for an hour or so.

    I recommend  Belmont  Wheelworks  to  deal  with, and they carry a
    variety  of tandems, including Santanna and Cannondale, as well as
    some others.

--David

    Thanks Dave.  Can you tell me where to find Belmont Wheelworks?
    
    Earl

    Belmont Wheelworks  in on Trapelo Rd. in Belmont, MA. I don't have
    an address or phone number handy.

    Belmont Wheelworks is on Trapelo Rd a few blocks east of the
    intersection with Rt 60.  It's on the south side of the road.

    They have another branch on the Cambridge/Somerville line,
    sort of near the Porter Sq. Star Market.  The Belmont
    location is bigger though, and might have a bit more selection.

    -Jeff

    for rental try Lincoln Guide Service in Lincoln, I not positive
    but I believe they rent tandems. 

         I think the Nashbar is worth trying out too. the reason is
         that the frame design is a bit stiffer in general.
         Bicycling magazine had a great article about this recently.
         It has to do with the extra tube that runs from the headset
         to the stoker bottom bracket. The Burley does not have
         this. 

         The Burley has the name. But names aren't everything.

         JC

>>         I think the Nashbar is worth trying out too. the reason is
>>         that the frame design is a bit stiffer in general.
>>         Bicycling magazine had a great article about this recently.
>>         It has to do with the extra tube that runs from the headset
>>         to the stoker bottom bracket. The Burley does not have
>>         this. 

>>         The Burley has the name. But names aren't everything.
  
NOT TRUE. Only the Burley Samba ($900-$1000 26" wheels and designed for low end
market) has the "open frame" design. All the rest of the Burley models have the
extra frame tube like the Santana design. Franks Spoke and Wheel in Framingham
has the Burley Duet in stock ($1000-$1100). 

The Burley is a well made with REAL tandem parts on it. I took one for a ride
one day and it was a good ride for the money. A very strong bike that will last
and it handled well. I would think twice abut getting a tandem though mail
order unless you already know a bit about tandems or are in with a group that
can help you with questions. There is more to riding a tandem than meets the
eye. Find a club or a person that has a tandem to take you and you stroker out 
for a test ride. Then go out and find the bike you want to buy.

Tom

    re: .7
    I knew Santana had a name, but Burley?  
    I agree with .8, tandems require a GOOD test ride.  In addition, sizing
    becomes important and perhaps come component customization ie: stem
    length, pedals, saddles, etc.  
    
    steve

    I bought my Kuwahara tandem at Franks Spoke n' wheel on route 9 in
    Framingham MA.  I have owned it over 2 years now.  At the time of
    purchase I found it to be the best quality per dollar.  And of course he
    allowed a test ride to see if it was right, which you must do before
    buying.

         Re: .8

         I must be getting a little senile.....:-)


         But, I thought the beautiful Samba sitting in the Bicycle
         Barn (Part of the Spoke and Wheel Group) was about $2K. At
         least that is what Don said to me.

         Also the Bottom of the line Tandem offered by Burley was
         reviewed in Bicycling's yearly Buyers Guide. It was a 27"
         wheel road bike with an open frame....Must be getting old...:-)
         But, it seems to me that I remember a mention of the
         mountain version for a little more money.

         I definitely agree that the bike needs to be ridden. I
         would advocate getting to one of the Nashbar stores to see
         for yourself to make up your own mind.

         I was not giving opinions here based on my experience. I
         have none. But, I was quoting things I have read. I still
         think that frame design is more important than components.
         *If* it is true that the $999 Burley has a better
         component group than the $999 Nashbar then you have to
         wonder where the savings come from. This is the price range
         we were talking about in the base note wasn't it?

         If and when (I hope) I get enough cash to buy a tandem I
         plan on saving until I can afford a more expensive model
         that will have a lot of the features I feel I need. That is
         probably the key here. Go look and decide for yourself.

    I want to thankyou all for the information.  .8 refered to "real"
    tandem parts.  Could you explain more what that means.  I'm willing to
    spend more money if it really makes a difference.
    
    Earl

    re: .12:  What .8 means by Real Tandem (tm) parts is that the
    components were selected with an eye toward greater durability and
    heavy duty use.  Often this means something closer to an ATB type
    of part than a light touring/racing part.
    
    ed

RE: Real Tandem parts:

I believe Campy now makes a tandem group (for you folks that like the high-
priced spread).  Tne only part that I know of that I'm interested in is the rear
hub, which has an internal roller bearing, in addition to the usual bearings at
the outboard ends of the axle.

Kevin

Thought I'd add in inquiry to this note:

My tandem partner bought a Cannondale tandem this spring. Since then it's gone
through 2 headsets and is on it's third.  We did a douible century in June and 
the head set had to get replaced after that. We were only getting 250-300 miles
on it before it had to be replaced.

When it was taken to a shop they discovered that (bear with me I don't know
all the part names) the piece of the frame that the head set fits into,
it's ends were not parrallel. Given it's an aluminum frame and all, there were
phone calls made to Cannondale and such and the shop got the got the go ahead to
try and make a fix.  While making the fix, some of the grinding went down very
close to a weld (it weld is the term).

Question: Any other Cannondale tandem owner out there with the same problem?
          Like to know if this is a problem with this frame or the Cannondale
	tandem frame in general.

Question: Another theory was that the head set was tightening with use. Does
	this just happen?  Does it ever happen to single bikes?

We're hoping for $$ from Cannondale and perhaps a new frame if the problem
persists.

My tandem partner is away on business for the rest of the month and is allowing
me to have the machine to practice captaining and riding with others.  I hope
to bail it out of bike shop prison this weekend and will be doing the testing
of the "fix".

Any comments?

    Forget Burley!  Forget Santana!  Look at Marinoni!!
    
    My partner and I bought a custom-made Marinoni tandem - fully equiped -
    for less than $2500.  The tandem was built with Columbus Tandem tubing
    and equiped as follows:
    
    Crank, excentric, BB: 	Gipiemme
    Derailleurs, brakes: 	Shimano Deore XT
    Stems and handle bars: 	Cinelli
    Hubs (40 spokes),		
    Brake levers, seat posts:   Campy
    Saddles:			Turbo (and Turbo L)
    Freewheel:			Mallard
    
    We wanted the bike extra stiff so Marinoni put in an extra lateral tube
    from the captain's seat tube to the seat stays which allows the
    possibility of putting in a 3rd brake (for the stoker).
    
    Marinoni does some of the best paint jobs that you can find.  Although
    he wanted us to choose a conservative color (usual for a tandem), we
    went for a neon yellow with chromed forks, seat and chain stays as well
    as the extra BIG tube between the bottom brackets.
    
    One reason for the great price is that Marinoni buys parts in bulf
    directly from the mfg so if you're not fussy about having the older
    style Campy brake levels or seat post or whatever, you can save big $$.
    I don't think that anybody else can beat him on price.  A racing
    Santana retails for $5000.
    
    For more info, contact me or Chelmsford Cyclery can place an order for
    you (508) 256-1528.

    You might  want  to  look  in  rec.bicycles There was a discussion
    there  recently in which there was a lot of praise for the Burley,
    saying  that  at  one  point  they  were  better  and cheaper than
    Santanna.  Personally, I really like my Counterpoint Opus III, and
    my wife won't ride anything else.

    The Tandem  Club  of  America puts out a magazine with lots of ads
    for  used  bikes  (and  a few for new ones). There's also a lot of
    information  on  making tandems work (which parts are good, and so
    forth.)  They have about 1900 memebers, where a member seems to be
    one  or  more tandems and two people. They hold occasional rallies
    (once  per  year  on the east coast, there may be more on the west
    coast,  with  several  very active clubs in the midwest), and have
    get togethers at other bike rallies as well.

    It's a   good   place  to  hear  what's  going  on  with  tandems.
    Unfortunately  I  don't have the address with me, but may remember
    to bring it in tommorow.

--David

The address for Tandem Club of America

Tandem Club of America
c/o Malcolm Boyd and Judy Allison
19 Lakeside Drive
Medford, NJ  08055
USA

Dues are $10/year in the US, US$13/year in Canada, and US$16/year
everywhere else.  I find the magazine (DoubleTalk) to be quite
useful.

--David

    David,
    
    I just called NJ information and they do not have a listing for any
    Allisons on Lakeside Dr.
    
    I have been trying to join TCA for some time so I can get the news
    letter.  I wrote a letter to the area reps in the SPO area and got
    zero response.  Before I send of a check for $10 I want to call 
    SOMEONE to make sure I am sending it to the correct place, and made out
    correctly.
    
    If any one can send me a copy of the news letter I would be one happy
    camper!!
    
    John Sise
    11 Lawler St.
    Holyoke, Ma 01040
    
    Or info leading to a live phone #
    
    WFOOFF::SISE

    
    Call 413/527-4877.  Ask for Sally or Bob.  They are the ride
    coordinators for the Franklin/Hampshire Freewheelers.  
    
    For some strange reason they just bought a second tandem.
    
    					Norm
    
    

John,   	(in re: .19)

    I sent  them  a $10 check this August, and my subscription started
    reasonably  promptly  (I  think  within a month.) The Check was to
    "Tandem  Club  of  America" I don't have a phone number for anyone
    involved  in  the  club here, but I might be able to dig one up at
    home.

--David

    Linda Harvey, 16 Clinton St, Salem, NH, 03079-2052 is the GSW's
    rep to the TCA.
    
    ed

    Well, Just a quick update....
    
    I have been in contact with Sally Peters and Bob Kowaleski in
    Easthampton Ma, and talked with them about the TCA...
    
    I have read the copies of the news letters they had. 
    
    I called about used ones....... no luck except a santana in fla.
    
    Sally and Bob just got a new noventa (sp) a Santana nivechrome (sp)
    framed bike!! man is that nice!
    
    Well to make a long story short it looks as if I will buy her/his old
    sovereign.  it is a 1987, a  Columbus tubed and brazed frame.
    
    Sally and Bob are the same size as Cathy and I so it's a perfect fit.
    
    John_soon_to_be_two_up!

Speakin' o' tandems, was that any of you-folk that I saw twice yesterday 
on the tandem with neon-lime TT bars? First seen near Jaffrey NH, and 
later on near Greenfield NH.... looked like fun! I was the guy that 
passed you with a car and later on a bike (powered-style yesterday, MKO 
pedal-bike season starts for me at lunch :-) ).

                                      ken

    Well we did it!  We went to Sally and Bob's place to go for a test
    ride.  
    
    We went for a short 15 mile spin.  Cathy my stoker was VERY up tight. 
    Every time I went to avoid a bump etc. she would try to shift the balance 
    to keep the bike going straight.
    
    OR every time she saw somthing of intrest she would stop pedaling.
    "Hey, look a muskrat, OOPS sorry".  And since she does not have brakes
    she thinks that by not letting me pedal it is like using the brakes.  
    
    I thought somthing was funny when it got HARDER to pedal down hill!!
    
    I have to admit that I did it to her a few times when I would stop
    pedaling to shift my butt on the seat.
    
    All in all we liked the bike.  Is was STIFF I was pleased at just how
    tight the bike felt.  The bar cons shifted better than my duraace on my
    road bike, and the six speed had more of a jump between gears than I
    was used to.
    
    We agreed to buy it, and went to pick her up the next morning.  We went
    on an organized ride of 29 miles of which we did 26.3 as we followed 
    some people that went the "short" way home in error.
    
    It was nice being together for the ride, and we enjoyed the workout. 
    We did well as a team, but need to work on out starts and stops!
    
    I did feel that it was more demanding on me than my road bike.
    I could not move around as much as I do on the single.  We sat and
    spun a lot.  My shoulders, hands, and back took more of a beating due
    to the extra effort required.
    
    We had the pedals set up out of phase, and I liked it.  I liked the
    smooth power transfer to the rear wheel.  We tried some out of the
    saddle climbing. We need some work on that.  I feel ok, but Cathy
    fights the movement of the bike.  She needs to trust, and let go a bit.
    
    The only other problem is that I can't get it into any of the rooms in
    our house!!  So she sits in all her splendor in the hallway just inside
    the front door.  Just one more reason to sell the house!
    
    I would like some suggestions on high pressure 27" tires.  
    
    John_who_needs_to_get_back_into_shape!

    Did the neon-lime TT bars match the color of the rest of the bike??
    
    That was me and my trusted stoker, Nancy.  We showed up in Nashua for
    an organized century and found out that we were it. Nashua-Townsend-
    Ashby-Peterborough-Jaffrey-Greenfield-...-Nashua.  Can't say I remember
    seeing you, Ken, but wasn't paying too much attention...  You can't
    believe the attention that we get with a neon lime tandem.  Add a
    neon-lime Giro helmet and people start looking for antennas sticking
    out of our heads...
    
    Next weekend: Lowell to Simsbury Ct on Sat.  Return on Monday (God
    willing).   Any other tandems ready to join us?
    
    Eric

re:

    We had the pedals set up out of phase, and I liked it.  I liked the
    smooth power transfer to the rear wheel.  We tried some out of the
    saddle climbing. We need some work on that.  

I can't imagine that you'll have much luck standing to climb with your pedals 
out of phase...you won't be able to rock the bike together; you'll be twisting 
it.  Seems like that can't be too good for the frame.  In less than one season 
my wife and I became quite adept and climbing together out of the saddle.  Its
very powerful.

Enjoy!

Kevin

ps.  Don't worry too much about it being harder on you than your single.  Until
you work out the teamwork aspects, you'll probably not be very efficient, and
a tandem is a lot of bike to haul around, esp up hills.  It is a very selfless 
endeavor.

>    Did the neon-lime TT bars match the color of the rest of the bike??
    
>    Ashby-Peterborough-Jaffrey-Greenfield-...-Nashua.  Can't say I remember
>    seeing you, Ken, but wasn't paying too much attention...  You can't

Can't say as I was paying that much, either, as the powered-sickle and 
me have had only a BRIEF acquaintance; but yeah, sounds like you, so it 
mustard ben ewe :-). Gotta pile on powered-miles for the next couple 
weeks to practice for a license (powered-cycle sounds easy compared to 
riding a tandem with a new partner, 'least my power-bike doesn't fight 
back!), and THEN we can start working more on real pedal-miles for the 
year....
                              ken

    You think  you  get  attention  just  because  the bike is a wierd
    color? That's almost normal. Try riding on our Counterpoint tandem
    if  you  want  attention.  Everyone  we pass seems to swivel their
    heads  around  for  a  better view. It's particularly fun to watch
    someone pass us. It looks almost normal from the back, but as they
    pass they realize that something's a bit odd. The recumbent stoker
    in front of the captain just looks wierd.

--David

    ps. It's  also  a  great  bike  for  people  with different riding
    styles.  My wife coasts when she gets tired, and it doesn't affect
    my cadence. The ability to ride at different cadences is also very
    handy.

    I took the tandem out for a short "blast" last night with my step
    daughter.  WHAT A DEAL!  No seat post change needed, and Cathy's shoes
    fit her(look cleats).
    
    The Tandem sprung to life with the high output "2 stroke" motor in the
    back!  She is a 14 year old 80 pound tom boy.  Oh would it be nice to
    be young again.
    
    She was laughing the whole time we were out.  "how fast are we going
    now?"  We were climbing some small hills @16mph, and on the flat
    @27-31mph!
    
    She was in charge of the "bell" and was dinging everyone in sight.
    
    I WAS going to take the race bike on the ride this Sunday, but now I think
    I will go with her on the tandem.  What a deal, a house with two
    stokers.  My wife works most Saturdays, and I thought the tandem was
    just going to sit..... not now.  :-)
    
    
    
    John_with_interchangable_stokers

    re -1
    		I have a six year old daughter with long legs.  Would
    anyone having any experience with a young child stoker care to
    comment on the pro's and con's of tandeming with children?  Thanks
    in advance....I've been wanting to do this for years and now I'm
    looking for justification :)
    
    						_Jerry

    I'm told riding with kids is a lot of fun. There was an article on
    this  in  a  recent  Bicycle  USA,  where  the  author rode with a
    kindergarten aged child.

    For most  tandems you have to get a "child back" conversion, which
    consisits  of a crankset halfway up the rear seat tube (the height
    is  adjustable)  and  a  chain  from  that  down  to  the standard
    crankset.  This  can grow with the child. You will have to work on
    all  the  standard  tandem coordination, and the toughest might be
    getting her to keep your cadence.

    For more  radical  types, the Counterpoint Opus has a short stoker
    pedal  boom  as  an  option,  which  lets you ride with almost any
    height  stoker.  You  do  have to add or remove chain links it the
    stoker's  height  changes  drastically, but that's easier than any
    other  alternative. It also has a freewheel between the stoker and
    the captain, so the stoker can coast.

--David

               o_       --o     --- 
                /-------/-------/o_______
           ----/\      /\      /\----    \  o-    ---
         /    / \ \   /   \   // \    \   ---|-----/
         |   o  |   \O      \O----o   |        \  /\-
         \      /              \      /         \O--o |
           ----                  ----              ---
                                  ^___________________^

Another possibility may be a RANN (sp?) trailer.  It's a sort of half-bike 
which you attach to the rear of a normal bike or tandem, and is sized for
children.  The form of attachment is a pivot allowing rotation in a
horizontal plane (for going round corners), but in such a way that it can't
lean independently of the bike it's fitted to. It has its own saddle,
handlebar, cranks, chain and wheel, so the stoker - if termed as such - can
either make a real contribution to progress or simply freewheel.  I haven't
seen one for a few years, so can't remember if its own wheel is smaller
than normal size (as I've tried to illustrate), or if it's full size. I
think the former. 

I don't know who made them originally, but in recent years the manufacture 
was taken over (exclusively?) by Bill Hannington - the last surviving
lightweight frame builder in Reading. He now calls them HAN trailers and I 
think still builds them to order.  Want me to check prices etc?

- Richard

    I have a cut in my rear tire on my tandem.  it is a spec. K4 27X1 1/8.
    
    I have a Spec. turbo 27X1 1/8 in the front.
    
    I would like to run Kevlar belted tires in front and back.  I would
    like input on size  27X1 1/8 vs 27X1 1/4 for "sport" riding.  I am 200
    lbs, and my stoker weighs in at 137 for a total of 337 lbs.
    
    So far I have not had any problems with the tires that are on the bike
    now, other than the rear has a side wall cut. (only 68 miles so far)
    
    I looked at the Conti tires and like the slick.  (in 700X23 it is rated
    at 125 psi.)  It is said to have a VERY tough sidewall.  The shop in
    Amherst is checking into availability of the 27x1 1/8 and 1 1/4 slicks.
    
    ALL of my tires have had to be replaced due to sidewall cuts. Three
    on my road bike last year.  I don't just get a puncture that is fixed 
    by replacing the tube.  I have to get a cut from the center of the tire
    to the rim!
    
    The tires I use on the road bike are Avocet K20 700X25 pumped up to
    115 psi.  I love the way they handle!
    
    Before I shell out the bucks I thought I would ask in this file of
    "experts"  :-)
    
    john

    I've run 1 1/8's on my tandem for 1000's of miles.
    
    ed

    I ride 700x28.  I had Spec but I'm moving over to Matrix kevlars. 
    Although the Specs rode ok, they were a real b*tch to put back on the
    rim - especially when you're on a roadside.
    
    We could ride 700x25 but our total body weight is ~300 lbs and I would
    be worried about flats.  Whatever you use, keep the pressure no less
    than 105 psi.
    
    Eric

    Here's an  interesting  anecdote  about  the need for hub (disk or
    drum  brakes)  on  tandems. It came over the usenet today. This is
    the  second description I've heard that said that the drum was hot
    enough  to  boil water. It also mentions that he was worried about
    the  brake  pads  on  the  rim brakes melting. I've heard reliable
    reports  that  that  can  happen  from  people  who  have seen the
    resulting melted pad.

    Note that  the  weight  of the bike and riders was 360 lbs. and if
    you  tow a trailer with a tandem, the combined weight could easily
    be significantly higher.

--David

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    

   A while back there was a thread on the heat generated during braking
on steep hills (one netter even pedalled down a hill with his brakes on
to see how high the pressure in his tires rose).  Having taken our tandem
up Mt. Diablo yesterday, I figured I'd add one more data point to the 
collection.
   The last 4.5 miles to the Diablo summit (and hence, the first 4.5 miles
of the descent) are an average 7% grade, with steeper sections in some
places.  The weather was gorgeous at the bottom of the mountain, and after
all the climbing, my jersey and jacket were completely soaked through by
the time we reached the top.  Unfortunately, the top of the mountain was
in the clouds: humid and only 50 deg F.  To keep from freezing on the way
down, I decided to take the descent slowly.  So, we averaged about 18 mph
down the first 4.5 miles.  (Without braking, we can easily break 45 mph on
7% grades if the switchbacks aren't too severe).
   The bike + the two of us weighs about 360 lbs, and I didn't really want
to test how long the cantilevers (and my wrists) would hold up to braking that
load, so we jammed our Arai drum brake on full, and I just used the cantilevers
to modulate the speed on some of the steeper switchbacks.  We stopped at the
bottom of the 4.5 mile stretch to see if we were heating things up.  The rims
felt perfectly fine, but I got a heat blister from touching the drum!  Not
only was the drum (1.5 lbs of solid metal) hot enough to boil water, but it
took over half a small water bottle to cool it to the point where the water
didn't sizzle when it hit the brake.  We could actually feel the heat from the
drum several inches away (great for warming cold hands!).  If all that energy
had been put into the cantilevers/rims, it wouldn't surprise me at all to have
blown the tires off or melted the rubber on the pads.  
   Needless to say, we stopped much more frequently on the rest of the
descent, and made it to the bottom without incident.

                                                  Ben

-- 
Benjamin J. Schwartz                          ben@iodine.cchem.berkeley.edu
Dept. of Chemistry  U C Berkeley      or      benjamin@garnet.berkeley.edu

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -- Salvor Hardin

usenet headers:


In article <1991Apr22.171112.6624@agate.berkeley.edu>,
ben@iodine.cchem.berkeley.edu (Benjamin Schwartz) writes:
Path:
sousa.ltn.dec.com!shlump.nac.dec.com!decuk.uvo.dec.com!hollie.rdg.dec.co
om!pa.dec.com!decwrl!wuarchive!uwm.edu!bionet!agate!iodine.cchem.berkele
ey.edu!ben
From: ben@iodine.cchem.berkeley.edu (Benjamin Schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles
Subject: heat generated during braking
Message-ID: <1991Apr22.171112.6624@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 22 Apr 91 17:11:12 GMT
Sender: root@agate.berkeley.edu (Charlie Root)
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 37
Originator: ben@iodine.cchem.berkeley.edu

re: .36

We ride Spec. Turbo/S 700x28 on our Santana.  I always pump them up to 120lbs to
avoid flats and reduce rolling resistance.  Haven't had any problems over-
inflating these tires.  Total rider weight is low: about 260 lbs.

Kevin

    re.-1
    
    David,
    
    This is an excellent example of how NOT to use a drum brake.
    
    Just jam it on and not use the other brakes for over four miles, and
    expect it to do ALL the work. 
    
    WTF would you expect to happen to the drum.... in 4+ miles!
    
    I wonder how the bearings stood up to that heat!!
    
    I do believe that it is a good idea to use a drum brake in the hills,
    and when I do, I will.
    
    Interesting story. Thanks for posting it!
    
    John
    

    Kevin,
    
    Thanks for the reply.  I also am running 120 psi in my tires on the
    Tandem.   I will stay with 27x1 1/8, the 1 1/4 seems a bit much.
    
    The Turbo/S that I have is defective, it has a "wiggle" in it.  The rim
    is right on, but the tire has a S in it.  At first I thought it was a
    bent rim, then after closer inspection I found it was the tire.
    
    Right now the motor needs the MOST work!!!
    
    John
    
    Note: my last reply should have said    "re: .37"

    
    Just to add my .02 cents worth.  On my tandem I run continental 700x23
    slicks.  I weigh 150# and the heaviest stoker has been 180#.  No flats 
    as of yet.  I run the pressure at about 130psi.  FAST and SMOOTH.  
    I did have a pair of Specialized 700x28 turbo R's on the tandem but
    switched to the Continentals and like the Conties much better.  An
    interesting thing I discovered is the Specialized tires actually
    measured 700x24.  I measured the outside cross section (inflated) with 
    a pair of vernier calipers.  
    
    
    						Norm
    
    

    Saturday (7 September, 1991), the New York Times had an article on
    tandem bicycles on the front page of the business section. It said
    that  Trek  and Specialized were getting into the tandem business,
    and that Cannondale would start selling complete tandems (now they
    just sell tandem frames, and shops can build them into bikes.)

    The article  also  said  that  this  would  probably  not hurt the
    specialty  tandem  builders  (Santanna and Burley) much, but would
    instead  build  the  market  for all tandems the way Specialized's
    mountain  bikes greatly increased the mountain bike market without
    driving the originators out of business.

    Other interesting  note  from  the article: Burley makes over half
    the tandems built or sold (I'm not sure which) in the US.

    Apparently a  similar  article  appeared  in an Oakland paper this
    weekend as well.

--David

    re:.42 
    I actually built a tandem up from scratch, a Cannondale, for a friend's
    bike shop (O'neil's in Worcester).  It took me 6 hours non-stop...
    and it still needed some fine tuning.  Perhaps fully built up good
    tandems will help shops push these fun machines.  Perhaps more vendors
    in the market will help supply of tandem parts
    
    Steve
    Who is very much enjoying the used Santana we puchased

    Ok, Burley makes [or sells] more than half the tandems in the US.
    
    Did it say where the Trek and Specialized tandems were going to be
    made?
    
    ed

I was talking to a friend that works at Burley and she told me about Trek 
getting into the tandem business.  I don't know where but I would assume it to 
be in the U.S. (Wisconsin).  The word (unofficial) was that Trek and Santana 
where talking but it looks like the talks broke off.

Clarification: Burley does not make tandems.  It is subcontracted to a local 
company (ATP).  The painting is done down the road from Burley and Burley does
the assembly.  The owner of ATP (I think that's the name) was with Burley (I 
think he owned Burley), sold it to the few employees as a cooperative and
started ATP.  ATP markets other bikes and a few tandems but are very
dependent on Burley's business.

    Sorry if this has been asked, but who makes Nashbar's tandem?
    Anyone have experience with one (or with the same one under a
    different badge?)
    
    John

    I was  talking  to the folks at Lincoln Guide Service (who will be
    carrying the Trek tandem), and learned a bit more about it.

    There will  be  two  models which share a frame. The frame has the
    same  wheelbase  as the Santanna, but a longer stoker top tube and
    shorter  chainstays. (A lot of people have told me that Santanna's
    stoker  position  is  cramped. This should help that.) The shorter
    chainstays may make the stoker's ride a bit rougher. They use 700C
    wheels, and Shimano components (don't remember what level).

    Prices are  at  the Burley level, around $1200.

--David

    re:.47  $1,200 seems a bit low.  We'll see.  I think BICYLING
    mentioned to have 2 models, $1,500 and $2,000.   If you want a
    long stoker top tube, try the Cannondale.  It is 29" on the 18" stoker
    frame size!  
    
    PS Why don ANY of the new Tandems come with disk/drum brakes?  Also
    some are coming with 36 spoke wheels.  Distruction seems likely.
    
    Steve (who's used Santana with a few upgraded components is doing fine)

    The low price did strike me as odd. Maybe they figure that they'll
    have  enough volume to justify it. I was told of two models, but I
    thought they were $1200 and $1400 or something like that.

    Drum brakes  are  out of style as people ride with less equipment.
    They  are  a  bit  less important for credit card touring than for
    loaded  touring. Also, they cost about $100. That's a big cost for
    a $1300 bike.

--David

The Trek T200 (Fast Track) and T100 (Double Cross) suggested retailed prices are 
$2,200 and $1,500 respectively.  The T200 is mostly equiped with XT while the 
T100 is DX components.  As suggested by their names, the T200 is a road tandem
and the T100 is a hybrid.  The T200 has end shifters and the T100 has DX Rapid
Fire (both 7 spd).  The respective chain ring sizes are 54/42/32 and 50/40/30.


They come in 3 frame sizes 54/50, 58/53 and 62/56 (4/3 cm increments).  The 
captain and stoker top  tube lengths are for each of the above frame sizes: 
54.5/69, 56.5/71 and 58.5/713 respectively (2 cm increments).  Both frames and
stays are made with Trek designed True Temper tandem Cro-moly.  The forks are
Tange Durango double butted Cro-moly with cast fork ends.

...but that's all I know ;-)

Does anybody out there have the address and/or phone number of Ibis?

Thanks,

Eric