Conference noted::bicycle

                     <<< Note 1424.0 by BLKWDO::HUFFAKER >>>
                              -< Catalog shorts >-

   < A few years ago a company called Italia Velo-sport had a special on
   < bib shorts (8 panel, padded,large natural chamios and slightly heavier
   < lycra) and they have lasted and felt great.  They were $16 and I bought
   < 5 pair.  They will be reaching end of life soon so I am starting to
   < shop around.
    
   < Mike

This doesn't answer your question, but how fast do you go through your shorts? 
I have been doing about 5,000 miles a year, and I have three pair of 
shorts... two Perlzumes (I've blown the spelling but its early out here :)  ) 
and one Descente.  They're all three years old and showing almost no sign of 
wear.  They retail for $60-70, but I picked them up on sale ($40 for the 
perls, $30 for Des).  I'm wondering if its not worth a few more bucks to get a 
longer life?  

     I've tried a variety of the chamois materials. I hate the real
    stuff and would never spend that kind of money again for a
    product with such a short life span (yes I took very good care
    of them - cream/washing and drying instructions).
    
     I like the cheapo shorts. Cannondale's $25 dollar stuff has been
    really good to me. I still have and wear the first pair I bought.
    
     I have never tried any "Spenco" type padding. I do have Ultra-suede
    and Super-suede type shorts. They're okay. I really liked a pair I
    got from Performance (the one where you choose the logo), very com-
    fortable. I also have Sunbursts which are okay. I have a Bellweather
    bib (their stuff is nice too if you can get past the price).
    
     You'll have to buy and evaluate. The stuff is all pretty close now.
    I like the value of the cheaper stuff.
    
      The Randon Chip

I really like bib shorts as well.  The only reasonably priced ones I've found
are the Performance bibs.  They are my favorite pair.  Unfortunately the
material is pretty thin but they are still quite comfortable.  Performance
usually has some shorts on sale in each of their catalogs but never the bibs.

I saw a pair if Descante bibs, retail price a cool $110!  Ouch!

    It's probably too late now but you can get great shorts at many of the
    area's bike shops for 40-50% off (usually in the Fall).
    
    At regular price, one good chamois-lined short is BlackBottoms
    ($30-40), which also come in a cheaper, synthetic-lined version, as
    well as bibs, etc.
    
    I have a pair of the moderately priced Cannondales which I'm not
    impressed with - the stitching is not very good and the fit is less
    than ideal. 
    
    Stay away from heavy padding - it's like wearing a diaper!
    
    soap box time:
    I buy from catalogs occasionally - if I can't get the item at a shop or
    if it's drastically reduced in price. Generally, though, I try NOT to
    buy from catalogs. Many items - like clothing - you can really lose out
    on because you don't know what you're getting. A good shop provides the
    kind of service catalogs never can - we save in the long run when we
    patronize our local bike shops.  
    off the soap box
    
    /rw

    ref 1424.1
    
    I have had the shorts now about 6 years.  They artill in fair shape but
    I am just getting the urge to start replacing them.  Using the chamios
    cream is a bit of a hassle (also they tend to feel wierd when you first
    put them on) and they take forever to dry.
    
    ref 1424.4
    
    The bike shops in the Phoenix area tend to not carry much below $50
    with good quality unless they are some strange color that nobody wanted
    to begin with.  Most of the cheaper shorts (around $30) have what looks
    like a thin piece of felt sewn in for the chamios.

    
    I've had good luck with Giordana wool and Performance Lycra shorts.
    
    There is an advert in the March "Bicycling" showing a male rider
    wearing what amounts to a Speedo swimsuit.  Think of the weight
    savings!

re:1424.4                      
>    soap box time:
>   I buy from catalogs occasionally - if I can't get the item at a shop or
>    if it's drastically reduced in price. Generally, though, I try NOT to
>   buy from catalogs. Many items - like clothing - you can really lose out
>   on because you don't know what you're getting. A good shop provides the
>    kind of service catalogs never can - we save in the long run when we
>   patronize our local bike shops.
      
Let me borrow your soap box for a moment:
    
    	Not necessarily true.  I purchsed a pair of tights from
    on of the best shops in the area (Goodales, Nashua, N.H.)
    while they were on sale in the early fall (several yrs ago).  
    After wearing the tights possible twice, I noticed a flaw in the 
    material similar to a run in nylon stockings, so I went to return 
    them to Goodales where I was informed that since the flaw was the 
    fault of the mfg (Bellweather) they would have to be returned to the 
    mfg for repair of replacement (They didn't have any more of these in 
    stock in my size, but there were a lot of other brands that would have
    fit me in store stock that I would have been satisfied with ....but 
    there's more).  I was asked to wait a week for a reply from Bellweather 
    which I did.  After waiting over a month (and missing some cold weather 
    rides because at that time I didn't have another pair) they finally said 
    that Bellweather couldn't repair them and they too no longer had any in 
    stock in my size so they were going to refund my money.  This is the best
    part.  Since I had purchased the tights using my credit card, Ron
    was able to locate the transaction on his P.C. (Must have been IBM)
    and reimbursed me for the *sale* price.  Since the sale price
    was considerably less than the price on the tights he did have in stock, 
    (I think they were Nike)I was forced to pay the additional amount
    to get a pair of tights that were of equal quality to the ones I had
    returned with the defect over a month ago.  Had I know that it would turn 
    out this way I would have kept the tights and worn them with the run and 
    at least been able to ride a few more weekends.  I didn't want my money 
    back or the hassle...just some tights.  If this is how good bike shops
    take care of their customers I can see why Trashbar and Performance
    do such a great business.  I'm certain that either mail order house
    would have replaced my tights with the same or better quality within
    a week...tops!  
    
    	Anyone else have an experience like this that they would like
    to share, or care to write an essay on "Why I shop by mail" :-)
    						
    							_Jerry

    How's this for fence sitting?

    I've had an experience where I bought a pair of Bellweather shorts at
    one of the mad house "Super Sales".  I wear XL, tried them on at the
    store and they were plenty big.  However when I wore them the first
    time I realized that the chamois was much too small for size XL, like
    they only have 1 size for XS - XL.  The seam of the chamois ran right
    over the saddle area.  I figured that it was my fault since I tried
    them on and the sales were supposed to be final.  So rather than bother
    the shop I called Bellweather directly.  They were very rude, told me
    that they only deal with dealers, not directly with customers and if
    there was anything wrong with the shorts take it up with the shop.  

    So I tried it.  Took them back to the shop, told them what Bellweather
    said, showed them that the chamois was too small (the guy in the shop
    must have been all of about 5'4" but he seemed to understand).  Anyway
    he said that since I was obviously not satisified he would take them
    back and either give me a refund or exchange them towards a new pair AT
    THE PRICE THEY WERE DURING THE SALE.

    Now on the other hand I think that we can take this "be kind to your
    local bike shop" thing too far.  You should expect to pay a shop for
    its service, the better the shop the more expensive usually.  However
    some things are just commodities, buy them were it's cheapest.  And I'm
    talking about big price differences.  If it's a buck or two well no big
    deal.    For example Perfomance sells a 600 cassette set for about $17
    while local shops sell them for $25 to $40.  This is too big a
    difference to ignore.

    And how should we feel when a chain like performance opens a local
    retail shop?  The Perfomance store in this area not only is a catelog
    outlet but also has a full service department and sells pro bikes
    (Serotta, Tesh etc).

    	RE: 1424.8
    
    	Bat,
    
    	Excuse my ignorance, but what does the fella's height have
    	to do with whether or not he understood the problem you were
    	having with the shorts?
    
    	Scott

     Gotta disagree with the TRASHBAR/PERFORMANCE shopping woes. If you
    know what you're buying, that's what you'll get.  And their no
    questions asked return policy is great. 
    
     What it really gets down to is understanding (through experience)
    what you want and what's being offered. The linings and materials
    used are pretty universal. Workmanship is defintely a variable. The
    only other one is material quality/price ratio. I used to do my
    majority of buying from bike shops and still do aome. I do not
    feel obligated shelling out extra dough just to put a smile on some
    proprietor's face, however. The stuff is expensive enough as it is!
    
     JUST MY $.02
    
         Chip

in support of catalogs, you can often get more straight facts from a
catalog.  for instance, perhaps you want to compare features of 
cyclometers, or maybe are interested in the makeup of different tires.
In a shop they have some cyclometers or tires on a rack, you wait and ask 
some questions of the salesperson; i won't go into the wide range of 
responses i've gotten to the same questions.

on the other hand, i'm going to buy a mountain bike for my wife from a 
shop (unless i find a good used one).  the tables seemed turned.  there is
more to choose from and more info available at the shops, and the prices
seem comparable. 

btw, i wear the cheapest nashbar shorts and they seem fine to me.  maybe i 
just don't know any better.

craig

    The main reason I shop from catalogs (like Performance) is that I
    have better things to do than make time to drive down to Needham
    or to a bike shop to get some trivial thing or other - I can just
    phone Performance and they send it UPS and that's it.

    For anything where there is a risk of it not fitting (clothing or
    some odd part for my bike) then I go to a dealer.

    Also, I bought the two bikes I own from a local dealer (Gamaches) -
    that's something not to mickey mouse around with.  Shoes and helmets
    probably have to be tried on at a dealer.

    - Jim

    "Support your local bike shop?"  Sounds good to me.  I believe in it.
    So why do I get 90% of my gear from Performance and Nashbar (and one
    or two other mail-order places)?
    
      - The returns policy is great, no hassles, no travel, no questions
        asked.
    
      - Bike stores (around here at least) are inconvenient to get to
        by car and a danger to life to bike to.
    
      - Bike store personnel sometimes try - and I have good relations
        with several people - but they often fall way short in knowing
        the merchandise and in human relations (caring for the customer).
    	Many of them could use a course.  This surprises me, but so be it.
        A lot of times they just don't deserve my extra time, energy, and bucks.
    
      - Performance clothing and much of Nashbar's has held up better and
        been better designed than some of the name brand stuff.
    
      - Some quality brands (Kirtland bags) aren't carried in stores here -
    	but you can get them easily from mail order (Cycle Goods for Kirtland).
    
      - Mail order, over the long haul, really does save time.  Over the
        past couple years, I've ordered things (parts and service) from
        the local shop I patronize.  They won't let you know when the part
    	is in, or the job is done - you have to poll (even though they could
        call and leave a message).  And then you get there and ... "Oh,
    	yeah, Joe knows about that, I think - he's out to lunch."
    
    I sympathize with bike-shop owners - running a small business in a
    society like ours - but I go where the service and the products are.
    
    -john

>    I sympathize with bike-shop owners - running a small business in a
>    society like ours - but I go where the service and the products are.
    
Gosh. When *I* was in the biz, we gave out lots of friendly, competent 
service, had really decent prices, would special order stuff, even 
loaned out tools if someone just had to tune up a wheel outside. Our 
shop made our own line of bike gear, and you could talk to the designers 
and get yer own made up if you wanted. I thought it worked pretty 
nicely....

And *that's* why I get most of my gear now thru Performance and friends; 
most of the shops I've visited recently just don't give me anything I'd 
consider adequate service. I'd fire most of the sales 'help' I've talked 
to recently.
                                          ken

re: 1424.9

    Sorry Scott, didn't mean to offend any short or skinny people.  It just
    struck me funny at the time that I had to explain why the XL chamois
    wasn't big enough to cover my butt to a guy who would be swimming in a
    pair of size small.

    	The more I thought about it, I decided, "Hey, it
    	would be difficult."
    
    	Anyway, I wasn't offended, I just didn't make the
    	connection.
    
    	I shoulda understood, being one of the largest people in
    	this conference.
    
    	Well, I am losing weight,
    	Scott

    
     I buy some things from my fav shop but most of the items I get mail
    order because of the expense. Most shops here (Atlanta) will give a 10%
    discount with proof of club membership which helps when one has to buy
    something from a shop. 
    
    

    For shorts, my fave's still Giordana.  I still have a pair that I
    bought some 5 years ago and all I've had to do is change the chamois
    and get in them.....Two years ago, I bought another pair of Giordana
    shorts at O'Neill's when they were closing their shop in Westborough
    and got 'em for $20.  Cheaper than Smashedbar, fer sher....
    
    As for catalogs, I look at all catalogs and take Performance up on
    their offer of matching the lowest price offered.  I save the sales tax
    that Mass. applies to the Crashbar and order from my bike cellular
    phone...
    
    Alfonso

    Speaking of Cashbar, have you seen their new catalog.  Looks like
    they are going into the glitz biz at warp factor 7.  I guess the
    big competative techno item this year is shaping up to be the
    rotational or fixed pedal systems that allow the user to choose
    between the two modes.  Sampson's even has a stand-by mode that
    allows you to unlock the cleat but still remain on the pedal while
    waiting at a traffic light.  Anybody tried these yet?.....oh yeah..
    back to the original topic....they have a lot of shorts on sale, even
    Decente for ~$20, unfortunately they are the type without liners
    but what the hey...real men don't need liners anyway...right :-)
    						_Jerry

    I knew I'd start a religious discussion with the soap box. Oh, well,
    c'est la vie!
    
    re: .7 - Maybe the problem is that there aren't that many good bike
    shops out there. Maybe the problem is there's too much gimickery and
    glitz in the bike biz these days. Maybe the mail order places put the
    crunch on the small shop owner so he can't afford to pay good people
    enough to keep them. 
    
    re .13 
    >>I sympathize with bike-shop owners - running a small business in a
    >>society like ours - but I go where the service and the products are.
    
    I had an unsatisfactory experience with one mail order place -
    involving shorts - but, on the whole, I can't really knock 'em for
    service. Neither of my two favorite bike shops seem to have a
    consistent supply of good tubulars (they get small order in from time
    to time and they sell out quickly). So, I'm ordering them mail order,
    for roughly the same price. 
    
    Roger

    	My experience hasn't been that consistent.  In shops that cater
    to enthusiasts the only drawback for me has been price, but there
    are ways to get around that.  At the time I got my Peter Mooney,
    it cost less than an italian mail-order frame, I got a few measurements
    changed to suit me, the paint I wanted, and a mail-order price on
    a full component group.  It came aligned, faced, and had the fixed
    cup and press-on headset parts already on.  This was without the BRC 
    discount.  I've found similar deals at some shops in California,
    though I haven't bought a whole bike here (yet).

    re .16:
    
    >	I shoulda understood, being one of the largest people in
    >	this conference.
    >
    >	Well, I am losing weight,
    >	Scott

    Yeah, I was also particularly glad to see that Nashbar had shorts in
    the XXL sizes!  Unfortunately, I'm NOT losing weight right now!  Too
    much snow to ride, to many chocolate chip cookies to lose weight!!!
    
    But on the subject of shorts...
    
    Does a 6 panel short have the seams in a different location so they
    don't get between you and the saddle?  I don't want to go with chamois
    because of the upkeep, but what is the next best pad and why - moisture
    wicking, chafing, whatever?  
    
    I've tried a couple different shorts and the ones I've liked best are a
    Paramount (I think Schwinn) that I got on sale for $15.  These are 4
    panel (at least I only see 4 panels and the seam intersects where my
    person meets the saddle), 85% nylon, 15% lycra, and have a 100%
    polypropylene pad.  
    
    I've looked in the Nashbar catalog and I can't tell one pair from
    another.  Can anybody tell me which shorts in the Nashbar or
    Performance catalogs are similar to the above?
    
    thanks,
    David Perez

>    don't get between you and the saddle?  I don't want to go with chamois
>    because of the upkeep, but what is the next best pad and why - moisture
>    wicking, chafing, whatever?  
    
Gee Dave, maybe you should go ski out to get those CC cookies??? :-)

Actually, I much prefer the polypro pads to the chamois that I rode for 
years. Wears a lot longer, washes easier, and sits more comfortable. No 
more chamois pads for me.... I got a couple sets of P.pro shorts from 
Performance or Palo Alto catalog a while back 9far enough back I don't 
remember model or even which cat.) and they're still great....
                                   ken

>Gee Dave, maybe you should go ski out to get those CC cookies??? :-)

    You know, its not NICE to make FAT jokes!!!!!!!!!  :-)  Besides, I have
    been skiing - what with riding the bike and all, and losing 65 pounds
    (SO FAR), I have so much energy I had to take up skiing for something
    to do this winter.  I've been skiing for about 6 weeks - been out
    around 18-20 times, and have the SORE knees to show for it!  The only
    thing that scares me is the idea that I'll get them sore enough that I
    won't be able to ride when spring comes!!!!!!!
    
>Actually, I much prefer the polypro pads to the chamois that I rode for 
>years. Wears a lot longer, washes easier, and sits more comfortable. No 
    
    OK.  Sounds like I should check out some decent 6-panel shorts with
    polypro pad.  In a LARGE size of course.  Maybe this weekend - especially
    if the temps actually get up into the high 50s like the forecast thinks
    they might.  I'll put the skis down, take the bike off the trainer, and
    get out for a spin around the block!
    
    D

    Just as a follow-on to this oldie-but-goodie...
    
    I ordered two pair of shorts from Nashbar.  the first is the anatomic
    lycra short with the 8-panel and the synthetic ultra-suede liner.  The
    liner is a 4-layer with polypro on the outside, then polyurethane foam,
    then terrycloth, and the synthetic chamois in the inner.  They go for
    26.95 in the #67 catalog, and I've had great luck with them.  They are
    very comfortable, and the elastic leg grips at the bottom of the legs
    are wide and don't pinch.  Also, the XL comfortably fits my rotund
    body...  the only very tiny nit I'm not REAL happy about, and I have NO
    idea how to do this delicately - the chamois doesn't extend ALL the way
    to the front which leaves a small vertical area on the front that is
    terrycloth which comes in contact with a particularly sensitive
    protrusion on the male anatomy...  it isn't quite as soft as it could
    be...  :^( maybe a few more washings?
    
    The other shorts are the touring short that look just like the old
    Cannondale shorts - complete with flap pockets and all.  These have a
    fleece lining and are pretty comfortable.  But, on these the bottom of
    the shorts leg rubs my legs when pedaling which is something I'm not
    used to.  Its not a big problem, but it can be a distraction.  I
    haven't ridden these a whole lot (actually its been raining for 7 weeks
    now, so I haven't ridden ANYTHING a whole lot!) but they feel pretty
    good so far.  
    
    Depending on what kind of riding you do, one or the other of these may
    fit your needs, and they were a whole lot cheaper than anything in the
    local bike shops.
    
    D

    Does anyone know where you can get a size larger than the xl that
    Nash/Perf. catalogs sell. I brought a couple of the xl from Nashbar.
    They fit but just a little to snug..I would like to get a xxl..any
    ideas without losing weight and regaining it...
    mike..
    

    This year Nashbar seems to be carrying XXL.

    It also seems that their XL isn't as big as it used to be.
    I have an old pair of XL that fit, but the new pair doesn't.

    -Jeff Bell

    	Contact any of the custom cycle-wear outfits and have them made to
    your measurments. Jones Cyclewear in Lunenberg is convenient to Mass.
    riders and does mailorder for folks further away. - Chris

RE: .28:  Jones Cycle Wear...

They have been out of business for about a year.  They tried to sell the
business, but no luck.  Cycle clothing was getting too commercialized
to be competitive, as well as other reasons.  I hear they're back doing
draperies, though!!

All my cycling shorts are from them, and several pairs are still going strong.
I'll have to sew some new chamois into two of them pretty soon, though.

I've tried mail-order and bike-shop shorts, but I can't find anything I like.
The Jones' shorts are made of nylon, which is comfortable, wears well, and
fits well.  All the non-custom shorts I've found are either Lycra or
"touring" shorts.  The Lycra shorts are too tight on me-- if I get a size
big enough, they're baggy.  Maybe Lycra is supposed to be tight, but I can't
stand the way that feels.  The touring shorts are all light colored
(where do you wipe your hands?) and usually don't have legs that are long
enough to keep my thighs off the saddle.

I think my problem with the Lycra shorts might just be my big thighs, since
I see so many happy Lycra riders.  I *do* have a pair of Jones' "experimental"
Lycra shorts which fit well, but the rubber bands that make up that heavy
Lycra are showing through.  These were a freebee, so I can't complain.

Does anyone know of a place that still makes custom cycle shorts?  I've tried
a couple of places (Good Stuff Sportswear and somewhere else, I recall) but
they only do group orders.  Any ideas?

I sure miss Jones Cycle Wear!!
                --tom

    re: .26:
    
    Nashbar is indeed carrying several shorts in XXL.  I have the
    anatomical lycra shorts (expounded on in another note) that run about
    $27 and they are GREAT!  Easily handle 40-42 inch waist and have the
    synthetic chamoisliner for comfort!  I also have the Nashbar touring
    shorts in XXL (also plenty large) and I'm getting used to them - they
    are "short" (short legs and short waisted) compared to the other
    shorts, but they work well - and they are NAVY just so you can wipe
    your hands on 'em!
    
    D

    re. .29:   Aw RATS!   Why is it that the best things disappear so soon?
    				- Chris

>  re. .29:   Aw RATS!   Why is it that the best things disappear so soon?

Because people will pay for quality drapes, and not many will pay for quality 
cycling clothes.

    	But Grace's clothing was priced = or < comparable stuff in the
    mail order catalogs!  Maybe she should have charged more - then people
    would have assigned a higher value to her stuff...
    	Gaaaaaahh!  The (irrational) way people think!  - Chris

    Have any of you silver-tongued devils tried contacting this person to
    see if he/she/they would be willing to perhaps go into limited
    production...  explain how sad your tousche/tushy/toucas [sp] is
    without this product...  hm?  Perhaps an appeal on behalf of "odd"
    shaped riders everywhere!!!!!!!  :^)

    I've been getting my cycling bibs from a woman here in Minneapolis for
    the last couple years.  Unfortunately, this year she doesn't have time
    to make me a couple pair...
    
    Does anyone out there have a name/address/phone of a place that makes
    cycling bibs in XXL?  I got the name of a place called Toga Wear or
    Toga Bicycling Wear in or around San Diego but haven't been able to
    find a phone number for them...
    
    I've found that I prefer the bibs to regular shorts and need a couple
    new pair.  Nashbar and Performance don't seem to have any.

	I've had some jersies made by Flye Custom Clothes.

	Martha Hess can be reached @ 413-268-7882  (Last I knew)

	I believe she is located in Hadley, MA


		- Tim