Conference noted::bicycle

     Jim,
          I know you've been cycling for a long time. I guess if I could
         highlight the single most important element on building strength
         safely, using cycling as therapy from an injury or associated
         areas that are connected to cycling, the common denominator would
         be fit-to-cycle. It will hinder improvement, CAUSE injury or, at
         the least, a great deal of discomfort.
    
          The most common complaints are hands, neck & shoulders, back and
         knees. It is true that some of the areas pop up due to just plain
         weakness and there are exercises (separate from cycling) to bring
         them up to par. There are winter sports as well that will rein-
         force the cycling sport, e.g. cross country skiing and ice
         skating. Working with light weights, e.g. squats for quads, donkey
         presses for calves, shoulder shrugs for trapezious and sit-ups for
         for the back. I don't know if this helps, provides enough frame
         work for you or is off base. I know I didn't provide specifics,
         it would be a lot to cover it all.

    
    I get a little knee soreness. Generally on front/top of knee. 
    This could be due to riding a bike (for six months) before I realized 
    that I wasn't extending my leg enough OR this could be due to my 
    hyperextending the knee on down hills ( standing up, mountain biking) 
    OR it could be that I grind uphills to hard. I am definitely working
    on spinning, form and fit, but the soreness has persisted for some time
    
    

    	Two knee surgeries here.  One definitely caused by middle-distance
    running; 440 and 880 in spikes.  Lots of speed work on top of base
    mileage cracked cartilege.  The arthroscope wasn't perfected yet.
    The second one was caused by a combination of factors, which included
    time trials.  One surgeon recommended leg extensions with a VERY 
    restricted range of motion; maybe 4 to 6 inches.  Cycling, I still get 
    knee pain if I try to get into the big ring or climb quickly without 
    having a base (at least 500 mi) of small ring spinning on the flats.  
    Now I do squats (among other exercises) but don't go all the way
    down.  I also back off when the knee starts to twinge.  Squats are
    pretty new to me, so I can't comment first-hand on the
    benefits/injuries from doing them.  I am reading the velo-news book 
    "Weight Training for Cyclists" to get ideas for specific exercises.
    You might try to find a copy.  It has some interesting ideas from
    two authors who don't always agree with each other.  

Be sure to include appropriate stretching exercises.  Stretching did 
more for my knees than all the exercise combined.


	~Mike

re: 1336.0                
    
>I'm the Wellness Center Coordinator here in ZKO.  What I'd like to do is design
>some strength training programs for runners, cyclists and triathletes who are on 
>the off-season.  This is the best time to fully recover any injuries and start 
>to strengthen the "problem" areas.
    
Hi Jim,
    
    	It's interesting to note that the ZKO Wellness Center is open
    exclusively to ZKO residents only.  I'm wondering if the information
    you glean from this notes file will benefit any other Deccies, or will
    the programs you put together be implimented at ZK and therefore
    restricted to ZK employees only.
    
    What ever happened to "One Company........."
    
    Flame Off
    						_Jerry

	RE: .5

	I believe all of the Wellness centers in the company are open
	only to the residents of the particular facility that they are
	located in. I know SHR is. Just because ZKO is outfitted better
	than most health clubs is no reason to pick on them.

	Paul

>>        Wellness centers are only open to employees of that location.
>>        Which means that those of us in small buildings
>>        will never see one.


     The NRO2 'Wellness Center' in Northboro is open to a number of 
sites out of the immediate NRO cluster (NRO1-5).  We have people from 
the DLB buildings(4) in Marlboro, and from the West Boylston facility.  
HUO (little Hudson) people also have access I believe, but HLO, which 
is closer, does not.  

So what is the logic behind the various policies?  Darned if I 
know.....

    Look it...
    
    I'm not interested in all of your policy problems.  If you have
    a complaint, contact your personnel people.  Since that isn't me,
    I really not interested in hearing about it.  I don't make the
    rules, unfortunately I have to enforce 'em in this facility.  If
    I had my choice everyone AND their spouses could use this place.
    
    All I want to do is collect info...Everything that I work on will
    be shared.  The programs designed will not be restricted to the
    equipment in this Center. 
    
    Jim

Re: -3
    
>>	I believe all of the Wellness centers in the company are open
>>	only to the residents of the particular facility that they are
>>	located in. I know SHR is. Just because ZKO is outfitted better
>>	than most health clubs is no reason to pick on them.

    	Wrong!  The LIFE center at MKO (15 miles up the road) is 
    open to *ALL* Digital Employees and they offer aerobics, treadmills,
    stat bikes and weight training equipment.  More importantly, they
    have a trained staff ready and able to get you into a program for
    whatever it is that you want to do to improve your physical condition.
    Since I work in Hudson, N.H. (close to ZKO) I can still use the MKO
    facility, but lunch hours are prohibitive since it takes to long to
    drive there.  I can appreciate that a lot of bikies in this conference
    don't *feel* for me since they (as expressed in the last few notes) aren't
    as fortunate to have *any* facilities at all.  What I would like to
    see is that all the facilities that we do have become available to
    all Digital employees, so that when we are traveling, or meeting
    off site we have an opportunity to use the facility we are visiting.
    
    	I didn't mean to pick on Jim personally, but I did mean to protest
    the 2nd class citizens feeling for *all* Decies that would like to
    use a facility that is next door, but off limits.  
    
    	Actually, we'll probably see sheltered bike racks in all facilities
    before we see any progress on this one :-(
    
    					_Jerry

    This won't satisfy many readers, but the ZKO Center is open to TTB
    folks as well. 'Course if this ain't so, ol' Jim-bo ain't gonna
    let me in n'more.
    
    Ken

	Hasn't this got off the original topic. The current discussion
	is more suited for the SOAPBOX conference. Jim Pammer started out
	trying to do something to help us and ended up getting abused 
	for a policy he probably has little, if anything, to do with.

	Paul

re: Note 1336.13               
    
>>	Hasn't this got off the original topic. The current discussion
>>	is more suited for the SOAPBOX conference. Jim Pammer started out
    
    	Right.  And it's sentiment like your's that will keep
    the policies exactly as they are today.  So lets just move
    this discussion to the status-quo soap box conference and
    be done with it.
    					_Jerry
    

    So, Jerry, what do you think of plyometrics for cyclists?  Are these
    exercises worth the risk of injury to the casual racer?   Using
    what I have, the equipment in my garage and at a local junior
    college, I've been trying it out.  A triathlete who is also a strength 
    training coach recently told me that he didn't think it was worthwhile
    unless cycling really was substantially more than a hobby.
    
    This topic could really help me out if other people with experience
    with weights and cycling care to share it.   Did anyone notice power
    increases or faster sprints?  How many months with which exercises?
    Do you continue during the season?
                                      

	What are plyometrics for cyclists? 

                     <<< Note 1336.15 by WLDWST::POLLARD >>>
            -< Since you ARE interested in the training itself... >-

>    So, Jerry, what do you think of plyometrics for cyclists?  Are these
>    exercises worth the risk of injury to the casual racer?   Using

As I'm sure Jim will agree, plyometrics, tho productive, are rather risky, 
unless you have a good background in weight-training.  The explosive nature of 
plyos' is tough on connective tissue, unless they've been strengthened by a 
lot of weight-training.  I'd avoid them if I was a 'casual racer'.  Or at 
least until I've had several months of weight work.  

Kevin

    Ok, 
    	Here's my two cents on cross training.  Actually, the only
    reason I started biking (about seasons ago) was due to a knee
    injury sustained by jogging 4 to 5 miles almost daily.  Rather
    than undergo arithroscopic (sp) surgery I turned to bicycling
    and weight training.  Weight training seemed to contribute to
    my knee problem rather than help it even though I did feel 
    like it helped to make my legs more powerfull.  The bicycle on
    the other hand really did the trick, very little knee pain, even
    on some of Ed's killer hill rides, but the inconvenience of not
    being able to train when traveling (I know this doesn't apply
    to you John) and the boredome of spending the winter on a wind
    trainer has got me trying to get back into running.  After several
    weeks of 5k's every three days, I noticed my hill climbing ability
    improve *dramatically*, however, I'm currently evaluating whether
    my body can tolerate the running impact, even though I have increased
    my recovery interval to two days between runs.  This combined with
    upper body weight training on the off days and a moderate distance
    club ride on Saturday mornings is my current winter training plan
    to help maintain my stamina until spring.  
    	Bottom line is that I advocate running and biking for y legs,
    as opposed to weight which could place too much stress on the precious
    knee joints and knock your self out on the upper body during the winter
    months to keep your system in balance.  Swimming would actually be
    ideal but then who wants to be a tri-athelete :-)
    	Ok....let the criticism rip.....I'm open to suggestions.
    
    					_Jerry

    re: .18
    "even on some of Ed's killer hill rides, ..."
    
    Is that anybody I know?
    
    You always picked the wrong days.  On the weeks you didn't show, we did
    my 100 mile downhill rides with tailwind.  :-)
    
    ed

    
    RE: .-2  (no biking when travelling, not a problem...)
    
    ... it's true - nothing makes a motel room more homey to me than
    my good old bike, complete with local dirt on it.  :-)
    
    -john

    Hopefully I can get a word in here without getting ripped apart for
    my inability to implement Wellness Center policies.  Man...talk
    about feeling INADAQUATE!!
                 
    I've been pretty busy lately, so I'd like to clean some things up.
    First off, plyometrics are a mode of strength training which focuses
    on explosive, dynamic strength.  You can do in reps. as well as
    for a certain amount of time (15-20 secs or so).  An example of
    a plyo is from a "downhill-skiers tuck" position.  From here you
    would jump up with an explosive muscle contraction, and land again.
    Having a real deep strength fitness base is a good way to prevent
    any injuries to joints, muscles and connective tissue.  These to
    work!!  But heed warning to injuries.  I went to school on a
    cross-country ski scholarship (Div 1) and one of our coaches was
    a former US Team ski jumper.  He was a real big adovate of these.
    These did do the trick for my speed, bt many who never did them
    before were always nursing joint problems.  Now that I'm not as
    competitive, I don't do 'em.
    
    As far as cross training....real good things have evolved from this
    way of training.  One thing is lessing your chance of
    "Overuse-Injuries."  Another excellent thing  is the fact that
    you are using many different muscle groups.  Because of this, you
    are making yourself more aerobically efficient.  Findings have been
    made that cyclists who augment running into their training regime
    have raised the maximal oxygen intake level (VO2 max).  One other
    positive note is that it will lessen your chance of muscle imbalances.
    One muscle group which will be a classic example of this is the
    the hamstring and the front quads.  Keeping these muscles in balance
    should be a consideration when doing your strength training.
    
    I started a strength program for myself in May of this past summer.
    By late June my speed and power had improved greatly.  In fact,
    I'd venture to say that my sprints and attacks on the hills were
    much more effective this summer racing as citizen then when I was
    a Cat III  three years ago!!  
    
    Strength training works.  The goals of a program should be injury
    prevention, improvement and maintenance of strength and power
    (depending on what time of year it is on your training cycle).
    
    
    
    ps......glad we're finally getting to the issue, thank you :-)

    I'd like to hear more about specific weight training excercises for the
    quads and hamstrings without stressing my knees.  
    
    I currently do a combo of nautilus and free weights but definitely have
    problems with my left knee (the little tendon on the inside of my
    kneecap).  I now do very light weight for leg extensions, leg presses,
    and avoid squats.  As a result of stressing my knee through lifting, I
    also have problems riding.  I can only spin the easiest gears, and
    then, for just a short while.  Hopefully this will clear up soon!  
    
    I'm a big advocate of stretching, but that doesn't really help to build
    muscle mass.  Can anyone give some muscle building excersises that work
    well for cyclists?  Also, how far should you drop down when doing
    squats (thighs parallel to ground or below parallel or above parallel)?
    
    Dave 
    

    
    
    > well for cyclists?  Also, how far should you drop down when doing
    > squats (thighs parallel to ground or below parallel or above parallel)?
    
    I was always told that the back of your thighs were to touch your
    calves.
    
    	-Nancy
    
        

    <<< Note 1336.23 by WITNES::HANNULA "What will the Neighbors Think?" >>>
                             -< thighs to calves >-

>    I was always told that the back of your thighs were to touch your
>    calves.
    
That's a full or 'deep' squat.  If you have bad knees, you risk destroying 
them.  If you have good knees, and poor form, you'll end up with bad knees.    
        
I've read that thighs parallel to the floor is as low as you should go if 
you're worried about your knees.  Full squats are best left to the power 
builders and body builders.

I've found that leg presses generally work the same muscles as squats, but are 
much easier to perform properly and control.  Thus they are much safer for the 
knees.  Of course you need something more than just a bar bell to do them.  My 
Marcy unit works fine, and I'd guess most home gyms are set up to do this.

Kevin

>    I was always told that the back of your thighs were to touch your
>    calves.
    
    	Jim will probably cover this in a lot of detail, but I can
    tell you unprofessionally that going this far back will ultimately
    destroy your knees.  I've watched body builders at the club, some
    of them using relatively light weights, actually tape up their
    knees before doing squats.  This is probably a good idea for anyone
    wanting to develop their upper legs without putting any strain on
    their knees.
    						_Jerry

    Re .24 and .25
    
    I'm sitting here in my office doing these squats - and when the back of
    my thign touches my calf, my thighs are about parallell to the floor,
    and I really don't feel that there is much stress on my knees.  I feel
    more stress on my knees doing the grand plie's in ballet class.
    
    	-Nancy

    
>>    and I really don't feel that there is much stress on my knees.  I feel
>>    more stress on my knees doing the grand plie's in ballet class.
    
  	Nancy,
    
    		I have never seen any of the guys/girls at the club
    tape up their knees to do grand plie's, but then again I haven't
    seen many guys/girls at the club even do a grand plie :-)
    				
    					_Jerry_who_is_no_Barishnikov

    Nancy,
    
    Are your heels still touching the floor when you are at the bottom
    of the squat?  Going down that is usually a massive no-no.
    
    Using full range of motion (ROM) is important in strength training.
    However squats can be alittle dangerous for most people if full
    ROM is used.  The action of squatting places a lot of stress on
    the main joint (in this case the knee) than most actions.  When
    I do squats with free-weights, I use a very, very shorten ROM.
    In my opinion....famous last words.....you don't to use full ROM
    in a squat.  Why?  Too much joint involved.  Just strengthen the
    muscle.  And the muscles in this action have a very short ROM.

    Re .27 and .28
    
    When I do the squats, my heels come off the floor, I'm balancing on the
    ball of my foot, abs tight, back straight, knees and feet straight
    forward and shoulder width apart.  This is what I had been taught as
    proper form.
    
    In ballet the grand plies put more stress on your knees since first
    your tush almost touches your heels in a grand plie and second during
    any plie your knees are pointing out and away from your body as opposed
    to straight forward and third ballet exercises are designed to
    strengthen you outer and inner thigh muscles as opposed to your
    hamstrings and quads meaning in a plie you are using weaker muscle groups
    which I'm guessing is what leads to the greater joint stress.
    
    In neither case do I tape my knees.
    
    And yes, Jerry, grand plies are sport specific - specific to ballet!
    
    	-Nancy

    	I'm guessing that you don't have a barbell full of 45lb plates
    when you do ballet moves.  This may have some small affect on why
    you can use a greater range of motion without injury.  My knees
    throb if I use a lot (for me) of weight going down to just above
    thighs parallel.  I hate to think of going any further down.  I would 
    expect to be in the hospital for knee surgery #3 within a couple of 
    months of starting a program of full squats. 

    Evidently, the hiccup knocked out my original reply that stated that
    I have a winter conditioning routine based on an article in 
    "Exercise for Men" that features Jim Pollack's (Team Lycra)
    winter weight training routine.  In additon to the article 
    there are a lot of full color illustrations/photos showing
    correct form.  I'll be gald to send anyone a copy if they 
    can't get the magazine on the newstand, but if you reply 
    after tomorrow you'll have to wait till after DECUS.
    
    					_Jerry
    BTW - I was at a "get ready for skiing" seminar and they really
    stressed doing squats without any heal elevation devices (boards,etc.)
    since doing squats on your toes contributes toward knee stress and
    the posability of shoveling the weight with your back and shoulders
    which can really screw up your lower back.