Conference noted::bicycle

    Assuming that these are morning rides, does your wife eat breakfast, or
    does she start out with an energy deficit?  If she doesn't, have her
    try eating something along with a glass of juice instead of having a
    cup of coffee.
    
    Rich

    Re Keeping stuff cold
    
    I freeze my water bottles.  I fill the small bottle about half full
    before putting in the freezer, the large bottles about 3/4 of the
    way full.  Then I just top them of with water before I leave for
    my ride.  You'd be surprised at how fast the ice melts, but the
    bottom of my second water bottle is still relatively cool.
    
    I've never tried freezing juice, but I'm sure that it would work
    the same.
    
    	-Nancy

>    Exceed, etc.  I thought about carrying a couple 28 oz bottles of orange
>    juice along with a couple bottles of water.
>    
>    Preferably whatever we come up with will be portable!  I DON'T relish
>    the thought of dragging the bugger around for 50 miles although it does
>    do a nice job of keeping stuff cold (I HATE lukewarm water!!!!!!!!)!
    
    Hi Dave,
    	Let me share with you my experience with OJ on *long* bike rides.
    Even if you cut the mixture to 50/50 OJ and water, after the third
    bottle you may have an acid like rash around your mouth from the high
    nautural concentration present in the fruit and what some might
    consider a worse condition, the orange pulp residue will build up on
    the inside of your mouth and teeth and cause a gritty sensation.  This
    was one of the prime reasons I switched to energy drinks last year
    (Gatorade).  
    
    	Whatever food and drink you choose can (IMO) best be stored on
    a rear *trunk* type bag which you will also need a rack for.  My
    reeasons for this choice are that you can put more weight in a rear
    rack bag than a handle bar bag without adversley affecting the bikes
    handling and the real benny is that most trunk racks are lined
    with some type of plastic, so when you go out with your frozen
    water/juice bottles (As Nancy suggested in -1 ) you can stick one
    in your pack to keep your fruit, veggies or plain old sandwiches
    cold.  (And also save a frozen bottle for the 50 Mile Mark).
    Hope this helps.
    							_Jerry
    BTW - Please send my t-shirt to me at GSF :-)

< Note 1285.0 by NCPROG::PEREZ "Out Dancing with Bears!" >
               -< Need help with food and drink on longer rides >-

>    She doesn't like Gatorade or Erg or any of them.  SO, what kind of food

There are now a number of Gatorade flavors... has she tried them all?  The 
only flavor available in powder form is the original, unfortunately.  I'd stay 
away from OJ on long rides, unless the citric acid doesn't bother you.  It 
would destroy my stomach and mouth.

I like Gatorade best, especially now that you can find it, cold, in most 
convenience stores.

Kevin

    	As mentioned earlier, a glycogen shortage at the start of the
    ride could explain the need for carbos quickly.  Try a big meal
    of pasta the night before the ride - or what ever your favorite
    carbo loading selection might be.  I need that high carbo meal before
    any real long (over 70 mile) ride.  I used to need it before any
    over 40 mile ride.  I guess your body becomes more efficient as
    you get in shape, so I can see a beginning rider needing a carbo
    load for a short ride.  
       Comments from you guys that do the ultra- rides?   - Chris

    
    > Comments from you guys who do the ultra rides?
    
    The previous advice should do fine - carbo-loading (or, more simply,
    just a good healthy supper and breakfast of any reasonable type is
    better than skimping), and liquids en route, plus energy/snack food.
    
    For my day-rides (200 miles or so) I carry a couple of sandwiches
    plus granola cookies.  I do not find this necessary for 30-50 miles.
    For 50 miles, I would definitely nibble at something at 25, 35, 45
    miles.  That could be granola bars, whatever.  (Or a liquid diet
    with carbo-replenishment, but my personal view is not to get into
    that for casual cycling, that is, non-competition, non-ultra cycling.)
    
    Big influencing factors: rest & nourishment the night before; 
    relation of the ride's pace to your "cruising" comfortable pace.
    When I go out with faster people, hunger pangs grip me at the most
    inopportune times.  And faster is relative.
    
    Citrus drinks have drawbacks, as noted earlier.  I would stay on the
    bike as much as possible.  Pausing any sizable time (over 3-5 minutes,
    your time may vary) causes muscles to seize up, metabolism to plummet,
    and the feeling of hunger/weakness can be really enhanced.  So try
    to nibble and drink mainly while you ride.  At least *try* cycling
    more continuously a couple of times.
    
    Finally, how do people feel about high-cellulose food such as apples?
    I like apples, but wouldn't recommend them as a great food/energy
    source while biking.  For one thing, lots of digestion needed.
    
    	-john

    re: .4
     
        > There are now a number of Gatorade flavors... has she tried them all?
        > The only flavor available in powder form is the original,
        > unfortunately.
     
        The Super Stop & Shop in Westboro (MA) has powdered Gatorade in 2 or 3
        flavors.  Sounds like they heard your complaint.

    My rule is to be sure that I eat something every 20 miles if the ride
    is more than 50 miles.  I can usually tough out 50 miles unless the day
    before was particularly stressful in which case I go back to "eat
    something every 20 miles."  As for what to eat, I'm not all that fast
    so I don't bother with the high tech stuff (Of course, I will concede
    that not bothering with the high tech stuff might be why I'm not all
    that fast), I just eat.
    
    On BMB '89, I bought a ham and cheese grinder in Putney (after 110
    miles) and ate it along the way to Ludlow (over Terrible and numerous
    lesser mounds).  I was trailing everyone until Putney because I had
    done 70 of the first 80 miles with a broken Look cleat.
    
    For my next 24 hr event, I intend to knock off a few gatorades at various
    points as well as a dozen each of sandwiches, bananas, granola bars,
    maybe some pop tarts as well as the usual road dirt and bugs.
    
    ed

    Oh, and wht to have the night before:  A good pasta dinner is fine but
    almost anything that's high in carbos will do well (even I get tired of
    spaghetti): beans and rice is a good combination, might even provide a
    turbo boost :-); something including potatos and anothyer vegetable is
    good.
    
    This is not carbo loading, carbo loading is a much more involved
    process which is often debated among nutritionists and "can only be
    effected if done a few times a year."  I am not a nutritionist so I
    will only nod at that fact and whenever someone says "Carboloading?"
    I simply agree.
    
    The morning before the event, I try to get something bready into my
    stomach: pancakes or waffles usually.  I don't make a special point to
    either include or exclude meat unless the ride is going to be really
    challenging in which case I avoid the sausages or whatever.
    
    ed

I dunno but my impression of the base note was that they are 
doing smaller distance riding (i.e. not 75 or 100 mile rides....200?).

In light of this I feel that I can understand their problem since 
I almost never ride more than 20 miles at a time, sometimes 30 or 
40. One observation that I can make is thatwhen I used to do 
centuries I needed to eat about every 20 to 25 miles. Now I 
nibble once every 30-45 mimnutes. There is, IMHO, a strong 
correlation to the relative strength of the rider to how often 
he/she will bonk. A rider who is in great shape will be able to 
ride 50 mile without food. Since for me this is a 3 or 4 our ride 
I *will* have to eat. I can't even sit at my desk without eating 
for that long.

I have a very simple approach to these rides. I use 50% dilluted 
cranberry juice. Lots of carbo. Granted not the nuclear reactor 
level in the high energy stuff but *much* more palletable. I also 
eat 3 or 4 ritz crackers or something similar while riding. I'm 
getting better at getting the crackers out of the liitle baggie 
in my jersy pocket....

It works for me. I have never bonked with this method. 

JC

    	RE: 1285.8
    
    	Ed,
    
    	No matter what I eat, I can't finish a ride unless I
    	get my share of road dirt and bugs. 8-)>
    
    	Scott

    JC birngs up a good point in .10 regarding the relative strength
    of the rider.  My long rides are usually in the 40-50 mile range.
    I have been able to do the 40 miles without eating, but believe
    me, those last 10 miles were not fun.  I definitely felt tired and
    I lacked energy.  
    
    I have a front handlebar bag that I sometimes carry.  Makes for
    a great tray to put those sandwiches down on when I have to shift
    and brake at the same time.
    
    As a start, Mrs. Perez might want to start trying to snack while
    riding, as well as taking a good luck at what types of food she
    is eating prior to riding.  
    
    In my house for get Wednesday, Friday and Saturday are Prince 
    Spaghetti Days.

    	-Nancy

    
    
re: 1285.9       
>    This is not carbo loading, carbo loading is a much more involved
>    process which is often debated among nutritionists and "can only be
>    effected if done a few times a year."  I am not a nutritionist so I
>    will only nod at that fact and whenever someone says "Carboloading?"
    
    	I once read an article on carbo loading that suggested that its
    ok to feel a little bloated and lathogic (sp) after several *days*
    of carbo loading for a big event, since this was from all the glycogen
    bursting at the seams that you might expend during the ride.  What it
    should have said, and I believe the truth really is, is that carbo
    loading just makes you *fat*.  Anyone else have simialr personal
    findings?
    						_Jerry

    I think this adds a twist to the recent research that said that carbo
    loaders who deplete first get no glycogen advantage on race day.  The
    research doesn't consider the long-term effects of this practice. 
    Since carbo loading is just a specialized variety of overeating, it's
    probably true that the main advantage for those who deplete is that
    they don't eventually gain weight!
    
    
    MATT

Pet theory time; please don't believe any of this unless you want to....

I used to ride with the pedal-coast-pedal-coast style of riding, and the 
eating habits I had to use resembled a certain recent kentucky Fried 
Chicken commercial ("Man in St. Paul eats 47 pieces and asks for 
MORE!"). Nowadays, I try to pedal rather continuously, stopping only for 
stop signs and end-of-ride. Down hills and up, just keep turning the 
cranks. This seems to better utilize my built-in food supply (read: fat 
and whatever else), so that on rides of 70-80 miles or less, I usually 
don't even bother to bring food, just my erg and water bottles.

As for the water bottles, I really can't drink it for the first 20 miles 
or so, 'til it warms up: I can't STAND cold water! (Betcha lots of you 
wish you had that problem! :-) )
                                        ken

    
    I often go out for 40-60 mile rides without food. (about a bottle of
    water for every 15 miles tho) and haven't experienced any bonking. I've
    bonked on many rides over 3 hours and no food tho..that wasn't fun.
    
    I generally have a decent amount of carbo's the night before, and for
    an early ride, I have a very small amount of fruit. It seems pretty
    unlikely to me that for rides less than 4-5 hours you'd be able to
    absorb very much energy from food you ate while riding.
    
    Warm water, while it doesn't taste as nice absorbes faster into your
    system, thus better for you on long days
    
    Robb

    Thanks for all the input...  Now, let me see if I have this right! BTW: 
    We are very early in this...  I've been increasing my distance and am
    up to 35-40 miles at 11-12 mph.  But, at this point, 20 miles at 10 mph
    is a LOT for my wife.   From her description, I suspect she is bonking. 
    We'd both like to get up to around 50 miles. 
    
    re .1:
>    Assuming that these are morning rides, does your wife eat breakfast, or
>    does she start out with an energy deficit?  
    
    She doesn't normally eat any kind of real breakfast.  MAYBE a banana. 
    So, if that isn't enough to get things started, then yes, she is
    starting off with an energy deficit.  
    
    So,  then night before:
    
    A good meal with lots of high carbohydrate foods.  Pasta, rice, beans,
    potatoes, things like that.  
    
    On the morning of:
    
    A good breakfast with things like pancakes, waffles, french toast?,
    etc.  Perhaps stay away from breakfast meats.  Don't skip breakfast.
    
    During the ride:
    
    Try some different flavors of Gatorade to see if something tastes
    acceptable.  Try the orange juice but if the acid is a problem switch
    to something else.
    
    For (in our case where 30 miles is a SEVERAL hour ride) carry some kind
    of food - sandwiches, granola cookies, raisins, etc, and nibble at some
    kind of interval (maybe every 30-40 minutes) during the ride.  Don't
    get off the bike for too long to prevent having the muscles seize up
    (I've had this one happen - its no fun having to ride for 20 minutes
    while you wait for your legs to loosen back up!).
    
    LOTS of water.  Approximately a bottle (are these large or small
    bottles?) every 15 miles or so.
    
    re .2:
        
>    I freeze my water bottles.  I fill the small bottle about half full
>    before putting in the freezer, the large bottles about 3/4 of the
>    way full.  Then I just top them of with water before I leave for
>    my ride.  
    
    I thought about this, but I was afraid the bottles would break.  If
    they can take the expansion then I"ll give this a try.
    
    re .3:
    
>    BTW - Please send my t-shirt to me at GSF :-)
    
    T-shirt?  People in Minnesota don't wear t-shirts!  Only long-johns!
    

 re. -1   
>    T-shirt?  People in Minnesota don't wear t-shirts!  Only long-johns!
    
    	Send my *Long-Johns* to me at GSF :-)
    
    BTW:  Maybe Schnabelt can design us some that would match 
    	  the Digital Jerseys.....it only takes *two* weeks :-) :-) :-)

    	RE: 1285.17
    
    	Mr. Perez,
    
    	Your water bottle won't break if you fill it half full. The ice
    	will simply move up the bottle to gain the extra space. Now, if
    	you fill it full and freeze it, you could have a problem.
    
    	One thing's for sure, the ice in those bottles melts real fast
    	on a warm day.
    
    	Scott

>>    	One thing's for sure, the ice in those bottles melts real fast
>>    	on a warm day.
  
	Nothing worse than drinking all the water before the ice melts.
 
	Well maybe riding in the winter and having your water freeze in the
	bottle.   

    'nother thing I just 'membered about freezin' my h20 bottles.
    
    Don't put the cap on the bottle in the freezer.  Since the cap is
    a little wet, and kinda freezes to the bottle, making removal of
    the cap difficult.  I've ruined a couple water bottle by breaking
    the caps when trying to add some water to the ice.
    
    	-Nancy

    I had the exact opposite experience: I had the cap OFF the bottle
    and when it chilled down, the cap got stiff enough that it cracked
    when I popped it onto the bottle.
    
    Can't win for losin', I guess
    
    	-Bill

    re .18:
    
>    	Send my *Long-Johns* to me at GSF :-)
    
    Where the heck is GSF?  And why do people there need long-johns?
    Oh, by the way, the only pair I can spare right now is my uncle
    Herberts.  Will they be all right?  They're his SUMMER pair and he's
    only been wearing them since around April...  but he'll be changing
    around October!
    
>    BTW:  Maybe Schnabelt can design us some that would match 
>    	  the Digital Jerseys.....it only takes *two* weeks :-) :-) :-)
    
    Folks, NO mere company can make a REAL pair of Minnesota long-johns in
    just two weeks!  But, how did this discussion move from fruit and nuts
    down to underwear?
    
    cheers

>    just two weeks!  But, how did this discussion move from fruit and nuts
>    down to underwear?
 
    	Must be the fruit and nuts out on the East Coast.  Hmmmmmm
    I thouhght that was California :-) :-)
    
    RE. - a couple
    
    	I attended a cold weather ride preparation class and they
    said that you can avoid having your water bottles turn to ice
    if you just add one ounce of Gin or Vodka to each 12 ounces of
    water.  The reason they recommended Gin or Vodka is because these
    won't discolor your water bottles :^)  Of course if your riding
    in Minn. or north of the Canadian border, I guess it would be
    ok to add Yukon Jack instead.
    						_Jerry
    BTW:  Wasn't there a bikie DWI note in here somewhere :-)

    Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. and Matsushita Refrigeration
    Co. have jointly developed a household refrigerator that can offer
    a peek at what's inside before you open its doors.
 
    The prototype has six compartments, two of which have doors made
    with a liquid crystal that are normally black but become
    transparent when a flip of a switch sends an electric current
    through them.
 
    Officials said the model helps to cut down energy consumption
    because snackers can find what they're looking for without opening
    the refrigerator's doors. They said the 70-inch by 35-inch by
    17-inch refrigerator will hit the market soon.