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Conference noted::bicycle

Title:	Bicycling
Notice:	Bicycling for Fun
Moderator:	JAMIN::WASSER

Created:	Mon Apr 14 1986
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	3214
Total number of notes:	31946

1227.0. "Does it matter who builds the frame?" by IAMOK::WESTER () Tue Jun 27 1989 18:50

    This question relates to note 1217 (frame composition) but has to
    do with a different subject, the frame builder.  Does it really
    matter who builds the frame?  If you find two frames with identical
    tubing and very similar angles, does it matter if it's built by
    Pinnarello versus Performance?
    
    If you know your frame size, I would guess that you can shop around
    for the best deal regardless of whose name is on the frame.  I see
    some great deals on frames like Stowe, Tomassini, Zeus (?), and
    others for a fraction of the price of a "name" frame.
                                                            
    The best way, of course, is to test ride bikes you're interested
    in, but you can't do that with mail order.
    
    Obviously attention to detail and overall quality of the finish
    work adds to the price, but if the core tubing and angles are what
    I like, won't it ride the same no matter if it's Schwinn or Serrotta?
    
    In asking this question to bike shops and friends you get a variety
    of opinions.  What do you think?  I'm still just kicking tires,
    but if I'm right, I could save some big bucks without sacrificing
    anything but a little prestige at the weekly club ride.
    
    Dave

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1227.1	Random mumbles of questionable veracity :-)	SUSHI::KMACDONALD	Is there life after drywall?	`Tue Jun 27 1989 19:18`	19
	probably not TOO much, assuming (!) reasonable competence on the part of all the frame builders. The joinery is modestly important - the less solder used (properly) and the more attention to mitering the tubes the stronger the frame will be, and more resilient at the joints. That's either important, or not, as you please :-). the lugwork can have an effect on the ride, too. Often custom builders will agonize over the choice of short or long-point fork crowns, etc, depending on how they want the bike to ride. Important to you? Beats me! The volume frame builder may just say "Hey, we gotta great deal on 40,000 Frogmoid seat lugs, let's use these on all our bikes for the next 4 years!". Don't forget, even a custom bike built for you can go wrong. A friend of mine agonized for 2 years getting a Serotta (spent as much $ for phone bill to Saratoga as for the bike) and hated it when it came. Sold it for a big loss, went to Ned 'n' Fred's and bought a bike he loved..... oh well! ken
1227.2	Good question	VERVE::BUCHANAN	Bat	`Thu Jun 29 1989 18:16`	27
	I've often wondered the same thing. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that there really CAN'T be too much difference. For instance I used to have a 1984 version of the Specialized Allez SE. That frame was Japanese, made with a good deal of automation, but it was strong and straight as an arrow. I always thought that if I wanted a "better" bike all I had to do was get it repainted in a fancy two color fade. Now I know that that sounds stupid but think if this line of "reasoning" applies to anyone of you or anyone you know. I have a neighbor who has a Palo Alto bike. Palo Alto bike shop is a shop with a mail order business much like Performance/Nashbar and they sell frames with their name on them built in Italy with Columbus SL/SP/SLX/SPX and sells for about $400. Since he's the same size as me I've been able to ride it and really get a feel for it. I would say that it's a fine bike, handles real well. It just seems logical to me that if two frames are built with the same tubing and with the same angles, the only diference is one is built by hand (by some old guy in Italy) and the other is a production frame built partly, or even mostly by machine that you would be very hard-pressed to tell the difference. In fact I might even assume that the frame built using modern automation would be of better (or at least more consistant) quality than a true hand built frame. People have asked me this type of question before, for instance is there really a difference between a $1000 Eddy Merckx frame and a good production frame like a Trek or a Miyata or a ...? That's a hard one to answer. I don't know, Anyone else care to comment?
1227.3	Cat-scan the frame to find out	AKOV11::FULLER		`Thu Jun 29 1989 19:04`	9
	The only way you know for sure is if you can x-ray the frames and see if the tubes are perfectly mitred and butted. This is essential, as is proper heating of tubes, and alignment, and proper frame design. After building a few frames myself using silver solder, I get nervous just watching a brass brazed frame heat up to red hot. Some damage must happen with thin tubing such as SL. Steve