Conference noted::bicycle

    As far as how they are made, all of the Columbus tubing you listed
    has a similar composition, but the tubing construction varies greatly
    The SL tubing (which is not the "bottom of the line" for Columbus)
    is a double butted CRO-MO.  The SLX is lighter, but perhaps not
    as stiff for strong or heavy riders as th SL.  It has a thinner
    wall construction with internal ribs which give it added strenght.
    The SPX is a heavier and beefier version of the SLX and you usually
    find it on larger frame.  I don't know much about Ishwata..
    Tange offers several grades also, Tange 1, 2 and Prestige.  Prestige
    being the lightest.
    About all I know about Reynold is the the numbers refer to the 
    composition of the tubing, each of the three numbers mean something,but
    I forget what.  One of the Bike mags did an article a couple of
    years ago and explained most of this stuff.  I will try to find
    the article.
    
    Does this help.??
    
    quinn

    Reynolds makes a Manganese-Moly tubing in their 531 series.  Their
    501 series is CRO-MO.  In both series there is a straight guage,
    single butted, and double butted as with most tubing mfg.  In the
    double butted tubings there is the regular 531, the 531c competition
    which has thinner guage tubes, and the 531p pro.  Reynolds also
    makes a 753 which I'm not sure exactly what it is.
    
    Ishwata makes a series of CRO-MO tubes they use to make and maybe
    still do, 025 single butted, 024 double butted, 022 double butted,
    019 double butted, and 015 double butted.  The lower the number
    the thinner the guage of the tubes.  Ishwata also makes carbon steel
    tubes and Mangalloy tubes.
    
    Besides the guages in the steel most companies today make the tubing
    in "Seemed" and "Seemless".  Most of the affordable bikes today
    are made out of Seemed tubing.  By affordable I mean under $500.
    
    True Temper is making frame tubes also but I don't know what it
    is, and Raleigh uses a material they call Technium.  Also there
    are Aluminum, and Carbon frames.

disagree with .1, now where are my specs?
    
    I believe the SL is pretty good for racing.  Hell, they used it for
    years.  SL is double butted.  SLX is not lighter than SL.  It's the
    same as SL plus it has the rifling.  SP is double butted and heavier
    than SL.  SPX is SP plus rifling for additional stiffness.  SP & SPX
    are used in the larger frames and in track frames.
    
    ed

	This is what I've learned so far.  Would anyone care to fill in the rest
of the blanks or provide a category I might have missed?


Cro Moly Framesets			M=Moderate E=Expensive VE=Very E
------------------
Manufacturer	Price	Characteristics		Application    		Labels
-------------   -----   ---------------         ------------           ---------
Columbus							      Italian
	SL	  M	Double Butted		Touring/Racing	      Pro Bikes
								      
	SLX	  E     Double Butted with	Racing			 " 
			Rifling for stiffness

	SP	  E	Heavy Duty 		Racing/Touring/Heavy 	 "
			Double Butted		Rider
			

	SPX	  VE    Heavy Duty 		Racing/Large Frames and  "
			Double Butted with 	Heavy Duty Riders
			Rifling for stiffness
Ishwata
	025 		Single butted

	024 		Double butted
	
	022 		Double butted
			Thin Gauge

    	019 		Double butted 
			Thin Gauge

	015 		Double butted  
			Very Thin Gauge
Reynolds 

	501
Tange
									
	No. 1							      Japan
								    
	No. 2							       " "

	Prestige						       Pro Bikes

Manganese-Moly Frame Sets
-------------------------
Reynolds 
	531		Double Butted Regular

	531c		Double Butted Competition

	531p		Double Butted Pro

	753 (?)


Carbon Steel Frame Sets
-----------------------
Ishwata

Mangalloy Frame Sets
--------------------
Ishwata

Aluminum Frame Sets
-------------------
	Who makes Trek, Cannondale, Klein, Myata and Schwinn Framesets?

Composite Frame Sets
--------------------
	Does Raleigh Manufacture Technium?

    753 is a very thin guage.
    
    ed

< Note 1217.4 by GSFSWS::JSMITH "I Bike Solo II" >
                             -< Comparison Update >-

	Who makes Trek, Cannondale, Klein, Myata and Schwinn Framesets?

From what I've read, TREK, Cannondale and Klein all make their own Al frames.
And don't forget Tange Super Prestige (or something like that).  Even pricier 
than Prestige.

>	
>	022 		Double butted
>			Thin Gauge
>

	If anyone cares, I've got a bike made with Ishawata 022 and
	the sticker claims it's quad-butted.

	chris

    How about expanding the chart.  I have a bike that used to be built
    with Tange Infinity; it's now Columbus Tenax.  Neither of these
    are in the chart.

    Thought I'd add my $0.02 re: tubing. I'll limit myself to alloy steels
    as I don't know much about the "exotics".
    
    Reynolds 753 (pronounced seven-five-three, thank you) is similar in
    composition to 531 (five-three-one) but it is heat-treated as well.
    That's why Reynolds requires that frame builders be especially
    certified to build with it (lower temperatures that  silver-soldering
    affords are required so the tubing does not lose its characteristics).
    It is lighter and thinner than 531 and is not recommended for riders >
    130 lbs. The Reynolds 531 straight gauge has a 1.0 mm wall thickness,
    the db tubing comes in sets with the wall thickness varying according
    to what tube and what the set is for. The standard road set has
    1.0-0.7-1.0 mm tubes, I believe, with a single-butted seat tube. The
    lighter sets are something like 0.9-0.6-0.9 mm, I think. Reynolds used to
    claim that their 531 alloy produced more desirable riding
    characteristics than [all the other] CrMo tubings because it had more
    spring to it - not entirely a objective opinion, but an opinion none
    the less. 
    
    Columbus has similar wall thicknesses as Reynolds in their various tube
    sets but has the rifling mentioned for additional stiffness. They also
    make a straight gauge CrMo tubing which is not generally seen on bikes
    in the U.S. There are some new tubesets in the works from Columbus, I
    think, not to mention track tubesets.
    
    There is also Super-Vitus, a French made CrMo used on racing machines.
    
    Ishiwata makes more tubing thicknesses than anyone, I think. They [used
    to?] have an 011 and an 013 which were for track/pursuit/ride-once and
    throw away frames. 
    
    All GOOD steel tubing is seamless, otherwise, to be fair, it's pipe.
    All of the companies in the chart produce good seamless alloy steel
    tubing. Quality control is very expensive to maintain for the top of
    the line stuff so there's a premium price associated with it. 
    
    It is important to realize that it takes more than a good tubing to
    make a good frame. A good racing or touring frame comes from correct
    choice of materials, good design, and good workmanship. Certain tubings
    like Reynolds 753 are destined for racing frames only. SLX/SPX probably
    wouldn't be the first choice for long distance touring framesets. 
    Sometimes, an experienced frame builder will sucessfully mix tubings.
    Remember that the steel is similar for all of these, only there's more
    or less of it, and in different parts of the tube, for different
    tubesets. All this goes to say that you can't judge a frameset by the
    tubing alone. I've ridden a very nice, smooth handling *economy* racing
    frame built with Reynolds 531 straight gauge and I've ridden a rough,
    unsophisticated medium-priced one built with Ishiwata CrMo double
    butted tubing. Don't confuse the tubing with the frame.
    
    French made bikes may be built with slightly smaller diameter tubes as
    they are metric sizes (28.0 mm seat tube O.D. as opposed to 1 1/8" =
    28.6 mm for others). In the past, it gave them a reputation for being
    less stiff (which was probably due to other factors, if it really was
    true, and not the tubing).
    

    .-1 sounds like an excellent write-up - thanks.
    
    PS: My newer bike is a 52cm SLX frame, mainly because that's the way 
    it came, but I think it should make an excellent light-touring frame.
    The SLX should add the strength/stiffness to handle some loading
    with grace (without the wobblies).  As you point out, though, it's
    the frame-manship, not just the tubing, that counts. 
    
    -john

    .-2 SP/SPX is one of the best choices for a touring frameset.  Touring
    frames need to hold higher weights due to panniers and this tubing
    can handle the load, keeping the frame stable at high speeds.
    
    My wife has a Bruce Gordon, one of the best US frame builders, that
    strongly recommends SP type tubing in his touring frames.
    
    Also note, there are some well known Japanese tubings that are seamed
    chrome moly.  This is how higher grades of tubing are getting in
    lower priced bikes. 
    
    steve
    

    re: .9
    
    > All GOOD steel tubing is seamless, otherwise, to be fair, it's pipe.
    
    I believe US made True Temper tubing is also seamed.  Ben Serotta used
    True Temper in his Colorado model (it was a custom made tubset).  The
    new Colorado II is all Columbus seamless tubing. I once heard that
    Tange Prestige is also seamed, but I'm not sure of that one.
    
    Every once in a while engineers turn a technology upside down and
    produce very good products with unusual techniques.  True Temper may be
    an example of this.  In canoes, Mohawk makes many fine boats with a
    "spray-on" kind of fiberglassing technique rather than the traditional
    lay up method.  Specs really don't tell you much.

Let's add:

Reynolds (used to?) make a straight-gauge 531 tubeset where the ends 
were the same thin-ness as the center of the tubes. This was designed 
for light riders / pursuit / TT bikes, altho the one I saw was 
successfully used in some road and criterium races by a REALLY light 
rider. The bike was a WITCOMB English machine with the straight tubing, 
and a LUGLESS frame. Probably the prettiest job of frame-building I've 
seen, except for Albert E's older machines. The WITCOMB was also (by 
several POUNDS) the lightest road bike I've ever seen. I seem to recall 
that the tubesets weren't available for larger frames (> 23"?).

Also, I have heard of a Japanese tubing brand "Day and Day" and may have 
an old Nishiki made of this. Emblem on tubes says Double Butted Chrome - 
Moly Tubing and has a sort of laurel wreath design, but no brand. Any 
clues? Anyone seen this emblem?
                                          ken

    Ishwata allows bike companies to put their genric labels on the
    frame/fork.  I believe Fuji is one company.  I believe Fuji uses
    Ishwata tubes and they call it Val-lite.
    
    OBTW Tange also makes a seamed CRO-MO 1000, and 900.

    	A little bit of a tangent, but the latest issue of Bicycle
    	guide tested 4 different frames: Cro-Mo, Carbon fiber,
    	Aluminum, and Titanium.
    
    	Scott

    re .12
    
>    Every once in a while engineers turn a technology upside down and
>    produce very good products with unusual techniques.  True Temper may be
>    an example of this.  
    
    Your point is well taken, ... I guess a little Euro-centric snobbery on
    my part was showing through there. I have three bikes with Columbus
    tubing: an SP light tourer/racer, an SLX road racer, and an old (heavy)
    straight gauge Atala touring bike  - Each one rides great (but for a
    different purpose) and I attribute a large part of the excellent rides
    to the high quality of the tubing. 
    

    re: .14
    
    Be careful reading these road tests.  It appears that the frame
    each writer likes best is one that fits him the best.  Who can 
    say that a bike doesn't steer as smoothly if he is two sizes to big for
    the frame (re: one writers opinion of the Kestrel).
    
    steve 

    	RE: 17 [RE: 15 (I believe)]
    
    	I was most impressed with the titanium frame. Won't rust.
    	Strong. Now, if they could just get the cost down a little.
    
    	Scott

    I was in a shop the other day and there was, what looked to be,
    a page from a bike mag on the wall (possibly mfg. literature though)
    that listed about 20 different kinds of Columbus Tubing, with complete
    illustrations of each of the frame labels.  Needless to say, I was 
    overwhelmed by the amount of different materials.  The differences
    must be very suttle.  Anyone know where this Columbus Frame Label
    chart came from and where I can get a copy.  It kind of reminds me 
    of a playboy centerfold for bikees :-)  
    
    						Jerry