Conference noted::bicycle

    	While riding a bike with a baby in a seat on the front of
    the bike might appeal to you from the obvious advantage of
    being able to see the baby, you may be overlooking a more
    important safety advantage in that if the seat is mounted to
    the front axel it will be more difficult to turn and have the
    bike respond to things in the road like pot-holes and debris.
    Baby Carriers in general make a bike difficult to balance and 
    control even for experienced bike riders.  Concerning how precious 
    the cargo is I'm supprised that people take such chances when 
    there are alternatives such as trailers and carrages that appear to be
    so much safer.  No flame intended, just my two cents.  I'm actually
    looking forward to the day when I can get my 4 year old onto the
    back of a tandem so that we can enjoy the sport as a family.
    					Jerry
    
    						Jerry

    Jerry,
    
    	Thanks for the advice, this is my first cargo and she is very
    precious to us.  I think the seats that we saw in Europe were attached
    to the bar on a mans bike.  Not sure it was so long ago.
    
    Katherine

    
    I agree with Jerry. Riding with any extra weight on a bike makes
    riding less stable especially when that weight is over the front
    wheel. (If you've toured with a front pannier you know how this 
    feels.) Add to that the additional problem of the child moving
    around and you'll really have a tough time controling the bike.
    Get a rear seat or a trailer and you and your cargo should be 
    safer. (You may have noticed while touring in Europe that many
    people there don't like wearing helmets either.)
    
    Jonathan
    

>    I agree with Jerry. Riding with any extra weight on a bike makes
>    riding less stable especially when that weight is over the front
>    wheel. (If you've toured with a front pannier you know how this 
>    feels.)

   Oh, come on. She said it's over the top tube, not the front wheel. (and 
according to tests done by Bicycling, front panniers increase front
stability.

    If safty is of concern do NOT cary the child in a bike seat. Get a
    trailer. The trailer offers a much safer ride for the child. I use a
    Berley (SP) and you can crash the bike and the trailer will stay
    upright. Lots of trailers have roll cages around the child. 
    
    If you have any questions about the trailer send me mail at
    CSC32::t_daWSON
    

There are still seats available here in the U.K. which attach to
the crossbar. They allow you to sit the kid between you and the
handlebars. There are, however, several reservations I would like
to make about their use.

It seems inevitable that any kid worthy of the name "kid" will do
some unexpected movement at just the wrong moment. If you're lucky,
this would just throw the kid onto the road. Otherwise, both of you
could spend several hours (days? months?) as the guest of the local
medical facility. When I say lucky, I mean in relative terms.

Also, I would expect that putting a hefty kid in that position will
change the centre of gravity of the bike. This might not mean too
much if you only pop out to the shops, but could again have the
potential for serious effects.

Lastly, there is no way any child under the age of 5 or 6 could
possibly be expected to know enough to hold on tightly while you
are pedalling around. 

In case you haven't guessed, I'm not in favour of this particular
type of child seat. If only the Burley bicycle trailer was available
here! From my observations, I recommend a trailer, because they
give you much greater control over the activity of the kid while
you're in motion. I would never travel in a car with an unrestrained
child. I feel trying that on a bike is even sillier.

Cheers,
Tim

How about some info about bike seats from people who actually use them 
on a regular basis. Enough conjecture....


I have been using the rear type of seat for two years. No, my kid is not 
5 or 6 he is 2 and a half. Yes he knows how to sit and to hold on etc. 
Kids are not mental droids..... BTW, my son weighs 33 pounds. There is 
no loss of stability. 

My feeling is if you need (or prefer) to use a bike seat the rear offers 
some very important safety advantages over the front. Firts and foremost 
if you impact something head on it will be the bike, then you then the 
kid to hit something. I would hate to end up smashing my kid into some 
thing. The rear position is very stable if the seat is installed 
correctly. This means low and not too far back.

Trailer *may* (big if in my opinion) be safer, but it may also 
be less convenient. Like when rationing raisins and cookies. "Daddy pass the 
bottle", or just having the many conversations we do just to keep the 
riding fun.

Just my 2 cents....

JC

>>I have been using the rear type of seat for two years. No, my kid is not 
>>5 or 6 he is 2 and a half. Yes he knows how to sit and to hold on etc. 
>>Kids are not mental droids..... BTW, my son weighs 33 pounds. There is 
>>no loss of stability. 

    I will have to say my circumstance is similar to yours, but that
    I find that the bike is *definitely* less stable, and braking is
    of course more difficult (switching from calipers to cantilevers
    helped a lot).  That is to be expected.
    
    I looked into trailers briefly and gagged on the price tags, in
    a few cases more than my bike!!!  I know, why put a price on my
    kids' safety, etc.  One thing is for sure, the trailer will be more
    stable but a lot heavier and make cornering, eh, *interesting*.
    And try putting one onto your roof rack....
    
    I don't have much problem with dumping the bike as the seats my
    wife and I use have wide sides, the crash bars are padded, the
    restraints enough to keep the child in the seat, and they of course
    wear helmets (The L'il Bell Shell is great!).

    I just put together an Equinox trailer.  Similar in design to the
    Burley, the Equinox folds down in a few minutes.  It weighs 18 lbs
    complete.  The attachment to the bike has a ball attachment so
    the bike can lean or even fall over without tipping the trailer.
    In addition, the trailer converts to a x-country ski trailer
    for the winter.
    
    Expensive, but we'll sure get the use out of it and will keep the
    family riding together.
    
    steve

    As I mentioned in the beginning of my quest for a bike seat, my
    Rachel is only 8 months old, weighing in at 18 lbs.  I think everyones
    answers seem to point to a rear seat or cart of some sort.  I tend
    to agree with all of you, however in Europe their were no rear seats,
    only seats on the cross bar.  I would enjoy hearing more about this
    concept. 
    
    Also what prices are we talking about for any of the above seats?
    
    Thanks
    
    Katherine

    I gave this subject a great deal of thought a few years ago.  I
    decided to go with the rear carrier over the trailer for the following
    reasons:
    		
                * Trailers are much wider then a bike with a child carrier,
    		  which makes them use up more road. With the way people
    		  drive these days, I'm just not comfortable taking
    		  up that much space.                                     
    
    		* Reaching back to hand my child something, like a water
                  bottle or some munchies,  is much easier with a carrier.
    
    		* Pulling a trailer on level, paved road is great; that
    		  is, until one of the trailer's wheels goes off the
                  shoulder...
    
    		* Pulling a trailer up hill is not my idea of a good
    		  time.                                                   
    	
    		* The price is ridiculous!
    
    I must admit that there is some instability with a child carrier.
    However, unless my 4 year old son throws himself from side to side,
    I have never found this to be a problem.  Also, my wife and I always
    make sure the kids wear helmets.
    
    Regards,
    Denis
    		

    My wife and I have used rear seat carriers for several years now,
    and have decided to switch to a trailer for several reasons.
    
    o Both kids want to see everything in every direction and are
      _allways_ throwing themselves in every direction.  This affected
      my wife more than me, but on an uphill, it could be a real
      danger at times.
    
    o Daniel fell asleep in the rear seat and fell forward, resting
      against my wife's back.
    
    o My wife does not ride as much as myself, so she had less fun
      with the weight.
    
    o Tipping over.  Even with the helmet, my older child, Eileen,
      had a bad scare with falling over.
    
    o I only pass water bottles when were stopped, and I saw a note
      that one person had the bottles tied inside their trailer.
    
    o Eileen is getting to big for the rear carrier, but is still
      all over the road with her bike.  She is safe on the bike
      paths and like, but not for on-road longer riding.
    
    o Price, Bike nashbar now has a trailer for $160.00 that I ordered,
      UPS mushed the box on getting it to me, but it looked fairly
      nice (you put it together yourself).  Nashbar is sending a second
      one and we will be using it.  It won't do X-country, but is good
      for the couple of rides a month we are likly to take.
    
    Dave

    
    Another thought about trailers I was told, but haven't tried is that it
    will take a infant car seat if the child is too small for the trailer
    inself.  
    
    I, too, had a rear carrier, but decide to look for a Bugger when we
    found out number two was on the way.  Also, the tought of my son
    hitting-the-pavement didn't thrill me.  I felt very comfortable riding
    with him in the rear carrier, but feel much better pulling the
    trailer.  I just try to stay off the main roads.
    
    Tim B
       
    
    

    More on the trailer:

    o When I am pulling the trailer I find that the car traffic slows down
    and gives me much more space.

    o As far a weight is concerned, the trailer is only 19lb.

    o It is very stable in cornering. (The type of trailer that attaches to
    the rear triangle)

    o The kids can have toys, blankets, food, and any other items they
    might want to carry.

    o On cold days the children can be in an enclosed compartment.

    o One person can haul two kids, I pull both my two year old and 10
    month old in the same trailer.

    o You are much stabler at all speeds.

    All in all I feel that my children's safety is worth the extra expense. 

    If you do use a trailer still have the child wear a helmet

    For the last 3 years we used a bike seat for my son.  It cost about
    $30, we bought some extra straps to make sure he was secure and didn't
    tip over.  These were just your standard cross shoulder straps.  
    
    We were able to ride this way from age 1 through 4.  While we don't
    ride a lot we were able to do a 100 mile in three day trip with him on
    the bike and had a great time.  He was able to see and we prefected the
    art of passing the water bottle and drinking while riding. 
    
    At age 4 and 1/2 he was big enough that when he looked left to see a
    cow the bike went left.  When he looked right to see what his mother
    was doing the bike went right.  
    
    So we bought a Bugger 4 (since we are expecting another one in the
    fall).  This cost $320 including a rain cover.  Our son Steven loves
    it, there is room for books and toys.  It is much stablier.  I have
    been suprised at how little of the road it actually takes up.  If you
    measure the width of the bike from the outter tips of the peddles it
    only addes about 1/2 a foot. Also cars move a lot further out of your
    way.  
    
    The major problem with the Bugger is the weight.  I go up hills in
    about 3 gears lower then I used to.  Now when I ride with my 15 year
    old dauther she has to wait for me rather then me waiting for her. 
    Actually that is a benefit because it makes for less complaints on
    family rides.
    
    So based on my experience I would go with a bike seat for a young
    child for as long as you feel stable riding it.  Then a trailer is the
    next thing to go to.  Of course the best thing is when they get big
    enough to ride themselves.
    
    One last point on the bugger and young children, it is very hard to see
    what the child is doing in the Bugger while you are riding.  This can
    be a problem with a young child where you never know what they have
    found to put in their mouth.  With the bike seat it is easy to see what
    they are doing.    

    re:.4:  I believe the part of study which indicated that front panniers
    stabilized a bike, was for when the pannier's weight is centered on the
    front axle.  When the front loaded weight is much higher than then axle
    as in a heavy handle bar bag or in the case of a youngster on the
    top tube or handlebars, steering is shaky.
    
    ed