Conference noted::bicycle

    There are four answers:
    
    o Use a higher cadence than you are now.  You can get the same power
      with less stress (Torque X RPM = HP ).  I race at about 105-110.
    
    o Stand up more often on the hills. (This is really an extension
      of the first suggestion.)
    
    o Build up your back muscles SLOWLY.  This means: ease up when you
      feel any pain, take progressively longer rides, and do back 
      exercises at home.
    
    o Treat your back kindly when you're not on the road.  Consider
      using a "back chair" at work, find the proper sleeping position, etc.

    
    MATT

    
    Mano,
    
    I get lower back pain every spring.  It normally clears up once
    I log enough mileage.  My problem seems to be a result of being
    off the bike all winter, but usually goes away once I've got myself
    back "in shape."  
    
    I only notice it when I push hard, like you.  If I ease up, the
    pain usually goes away.  It definitely goes away if I sit upright
    in the saddle for a while (no hands).  Also, I stretch my back once
    in a while when I'm riding.  I do trunk twists.  With your left
    hand on top of the handlebar, reach back with your right arm extended.
    This allows you to twist and stretch your lower back.  Switch hands and 
    do the other side.  Of course, do this on a flat stretch of road
    with no traffic and be careful.  I also stretch extensively before
    every ride.
    
    Another guess would be bike position, too high a saddle, too
    low for the handlebars, too long a stem.  If the lower back pain
    stays with you all season, you should try a different position.
      
    Lets see, what else?  Do you move your hands around in different
    spots on the handlebars?  Try a little while with hands on the brake
    hoods, a while in the drops, on top of the bar.  Get up out of the
    saddle once in a while too, especially when you start to bog down
    on the hills.
    
    Well, there's my 2 cents.  Good luck, I hope it clears up soon.
                                                                   
    Dave

    Strange you should mention it...  I rarely get back pain (other
    spots, yes) but did get lower back pain climbing Mt. Mitchell -
    unrelieved higher-than-normal effort.  Same when I try to keep
    up with real bikers on training rides.  I suspect a lot of it's
    due to tension (in the latter case).  Relaxation is important.
    
    -john

Do you happen to have legs that are slightly different in length? I have 
read in Bicycling and aother places that if you legs are not the same 
length lower back pain can result. This can be compensated at the pedal 
if you are not using clipless pedals.

JC

Thanx for all the help so far!

	re .1, .2,

	I have been working on sleeping on my side and did get a good
	chair at work. It may be that I am trying to push too hard too
	fast. I think I'll ease up a bit for a week or two and slowly
	increase my miles. I also do some crazy things on the bike trying
	to stretch out. 

	re .3,

	Actually it was really bad this weekend when I went our for a
	ride with some friends who were pushing me hard. I may have been
	worried about keeping up with them and got all tense and nervous
	about it. I'll have to try to make a conciencous (sp?) effort to
	notice of I'm getting tense. Very interesting though, I'll post
	later if I do notice this again.

	re .4,
		
	How does one tell if their legs are of uneven length? It may be 
	since in high school I messed up my right knee which may have
	caused some growth problems in that leg. Thus this imbalance in
	my body may have realy caused my sciatic disk. It amazing how
	your body actually ties in together. If I knew how much (if at
	all) smaller my right leg is than I can shim my cleats to make up the 
	difference. This may cause other problems though, I'll have to 
	think about it.


	I'll try the above suggestions and if they work (I hope they do)
	I'll try to figure out which was the most benificial to me and post
	a reply here.


Thanx for the help guys!!
Mano
	

    Biking strengthens your back muscles, but does very little for the
    abdominal muscles. I have read and heard that it is important to
    do situps frequently, so that the balance of strength is more equal
    between back/stomach. This balance of muscles (flexors/extensors)
    is a wellknown concept in weightlifting circles, and probably 
    applies to bikeriding.
    
    Mark
    

    
    I have had back problems for years, yet I still bicycle, run and
    do many other physically strenuous activities. My secret is doing
    back exercises religiously. I do them once EVERY day. I find that
    if I dont do them then I am in pain and i cannot ride, run, etc.
    
    Last December I had surgery for a herniated disk and due to my
    consistent exercising, I recovered faster and I am doing all of
    my normal physical activities.
    
    Harry
    
    

Well,

I have tried to experiement slowly with some of the suggestions
mentioned. I initially cut back on my intensity and am working on
building my mileage slowly. If I feel a little stiff or sore the
day I want to ride, I stay home and ride the wind trainer. I have
started doing situps and back stretching exercises every night.
I also stretch out my back before and after a ride. I have made
some adjustments on my bike also. I have lowered my seat slightly
and moved it back about a 1/3". I also tilted the tip up a notch.
These adjustments have helped me to get my back flater on the bike
which helps a lot. Note: I have made these changes gradually and one
at a time. I initially lowered the tip of my seat and experienced much 
more pain. I am concentrating on not pushing myself too hard while riding.
I am standing on hills much more and straighten up and stretch every now
and then. John Ellis mentioned that I may be getting less relaxed while
riding with other people and thus tightening up. I have not noticed this 
problem (in my case). I have tried riding alone and with people who ride
a lot less harder (my fiance); I still get the pain which leads me to 
believe Its not because I'm tensing up (in my opinion). 

I am SLOWLY getting better. I did a 40+ miler on Sat. and was only a little
stiff. I also did 20 last night with a little more pain but still not
as bad as before. I hope the improvement continues. Thanx for all your help!!

Mano

(by the way Mineral Ice works great on sore muscles)

    		Random question:
    			
    		Do aero handlebars (Profiles-For_Speed, Scott, etc.)
    put more or less stress on the back?
		Any thoughts?
    
    /Nick

< Note 1178.9 by ASIC::NBLIAMPTIS "multiprocessing as a way of life" >
                   -< aero bars => more or less back stress >-

I'd say less, tho they do take some getting used to, and you need to be very 
flexible.  Since they make it easier to get your back flat, and easier to stay 
there (if you're flexible enough), they take a lot of weight off of your 
spine, back and stomach muscles.  However, they put more stress on your neck 
muscles, since you need to lift your head up higher to be able to see.  I have 
to be constantly stretching my neck muscles during a long ride to keep from 
developing neck problems.

Kevin...who DOES spend half of my waking hours on aero bars (thanks MATT)

I've just been reading all this correspondence on back pain
and I'm most interested in it all.

I've had lower back pain for years now. I'm pretty sure it
started when I began fairly hefty weight training workouts.
What is confusing to me about back pain is the polarised
opinions on how it should be tackled.

One body of opinion suggests that the back is exercised very
thoroughly simply by daily routine, and therefor it is
inadvisable to give it any specific exercise. I've tried
this approach - and I still get trouble.

Another body suggest that; if you've got back pain, exercise
the back. I'm not too sure if this make sense or not. I've
tried everything else though, so I might try back exercises.

What exactly are the back exercises that people are doing?
I've heard Noters referring to back exercises, but not
elaborating on them. I'd be very interested in some
suggestions.

The thing I find very frustrating is that I have extreme
lower back pain if I try to do abdominal work; i.e. Sit ups,
crunchies, hip flexors etc... I have had a coach look at my
style, and he can't see anything wrong. (keep lower back on
floor at all times, don't wrench back of head etc.) I would
have thought that using the Hip Flexor machine in a wieghts
studio would isolate the abdominals, but my back still
hurts.

I am fairly conscience of my sitting position during the
day, and have a good riding style, and I give up.

Back exercises? Yeah, I'll try that then. suggestions?

Dougie Nisbet

    Re .11  Stretches for the lower back
    
    This is from CALLANETICS and is reprinted here w/o permission...
    All start with the familiar abdominal work (sit-up) position; "Lie
    on the floor, knees bent, a hip width apart, 1 to 1.5 feet from
    buttocks, arms straight and resting next to body". 
    
     	1. press small of back into floor by tightening buttock muscles,
    gently curl up pelvis (pelvic tilt) hold for count of 5, release for 
    count of 5, repeat 5 times.                      
    
    	2. raise right knee toward chest. place hands in front of leg
    below knee or in back of thigh and *gently* hug knee to chest. hold
    for count of 5. lower leg very slowly, repeat motion for left leg,
    do 5 sets.
    
    	3. raise both knees, one at a time, toward chest at shoulder
    width. place hands in front of legs below knees or hold back of
    thighs and gently hug knees to chest, hold for count of 5. pull
    just enough to feel that lower back is stretching and tailbone is
    coming off floor. hold for count of 5. slowly lower legs, one at
    a time to starting position.
    
        
    	4. Arms are now above head, elbows bent, backs of hands resting
    on floor. bring legs up to chest one at a time. gently roll legs,
    one at a time, over to left side. keep shoulders on floor if you
    can. rest in this position for count of 5 to 10. bring legs back,
    one at a time to center, repeat to left side.
    
    	5. raise right knee to chest and clasp both hands just under
    back of thigh. with elbows out to side, gently bring forehead toward
    knee, hold for count of 5. gently lower head, then leg, keeping
    knee bent. do 5 sets, repeat on other side.
    
    	6. rest left foot on right thigh. place hands behind head, elbows
    out. slowly raise upper body bringing right elbow and left knee
    toward each other, hold for count of 5, then slowly lower upper
    body. repeat on other side work up to 5 sets.
    
    	7. place hands behind head. bring right leg up, straightening
    it toward ceiling, as much as you can, until you feel a stretch
    in the back of the legs. hold while point and flexing foot 5 times
    rotate foot in small circles to a count of 5. gently bend knee and
    return leg to starting position, repeat on other side.
    
    	8. bring both knees, one at a time up to chest and spread to
    shoulder width, place palms on inside of legs. with hands, gently
    move knees outward to sides of body as far as you can without forcing.
    hold for count of 5 to 60. still holding legs, return ot starting
    position, gently ease legs back to center and down, one at a time.
    
    	9. stretch right arm straight back over head and rest on floor.
    tighten buttocks, curl up pelvis, slide right leg out straight on
    floor in front. stretch arm and leg at same time, keep body relaxed,
    hold for 5 to 10 count.
           
       	10. Arms are at shoulder level, elbows bent at right angles,
    backs of hands resting on floor. lift right knee up toward chest,
    straighten left leg on floor and bring bent right leg over left
    leg, relaxing right foot. Allow gravity to bring knee as close to
    floor as possible touching toes to floor if possible. goal is to
    eventually have entire bent leg resting on floor. make sure your
    right shoulder and elbow remain on floor; it's more important for
    stretch in lower back to favor shoulders on floor vs leg. hold for
    count of 10 to 60. keeping knee bent, bring right knee back to center
    rest right foot on floor, slide left leg up so that both knees are
    bent. straighten right leg, repeat on other side.
    
    
    Good luck.
    
    	-Nancy

I have followed many of the stretches/exercises that Nancy mentioned.
However, I have Sciata of the lower back. I was advised by my doctor
NOT to do exercises #4 and #10, they only make the problem get worse.

A note about back pain that my doctor gave me. Back pain which is caused
by swolen or ruptured disks heal VERY slowly. It seams that a swolen disk
causes the muscles of the lower back to tighten up and spasm. This causes
more pressure on the disk which makes it swell even more. Thus you end
up trying to break a cycle of swolen disk/tight muscles. I had to treat my
back in the following ways: 1. do the previous stretching every morning
and night. 2. take medication to keep the muscles loose. 3. Take medication
to reduce the swelling of the disk. 4. Take it easy for a while. The 
back is very sensitive at this time and over doing it will bring you back
to square one. If your back hurts while exercising then DON'T DO IT. 
Sometimes you have to get physical therapy in the beginning to loosen up.

See an Orthopedist adn explain your problem. I wouldn't try exercising
your back unless your sure your not going to do more damage. 

I have a sheet of paper with some of the exercises mentioned with usefull
diagrams. Send me your mail stop and I'll get you a copy.

Good Luck
Mano

    
    Since this note already discusses back problems I'd like to add
    a question to it.
    
    Just the other day my back started bothering me again (last time 
    it felt this bad was a year and a half ago). When this happened 
    the first time, I went to an Orthopedic surgeon and he discovered
    that my back *should* hurt because my right leg was almost 1/2"
    shorter than my left (good when walking down the left side of a
    crowned road!). After a lot of physical therapy and a few trips 
    to the chiropractor I started to feel better. I also started using
    a small wedge in my right shoe (street shoes). However, I never 
    made any adjustments for riding, and after this last episode, and 
    reading an article in Bicycle Guide that specifically addressed this
    problem, I've decided that it's time to try something. The article I 
    read (and the Orthopedic surgeon I saw) said that this shorter leg 
    syndrome is not uncommon, but differences of more than 1/4" deserve 
    attention.
       
    So, my question is, has anyone else had this problem? I am thinking
    of building up my right cleat (Look style) to try and alleviate
    this but wanted to hear any pro's and con's that anyone might have.
    (The article I read did talk about building up the cleat to compensate
    for the difference.) I also thought about getting different length
    cranks but that would be expensive and may not be the right way to go 
    about this. 
    
    Thanks,
    Jonathan

                      <<< Note 1178.14 by CSCMA::J_BUSH >>>
                              -< my achin' back >-

I'd definitely build up the cleat... its easier, cheaper, and more adjustable 
than going to a different crank arm length.  Also, building up the cleat seems 
like it would only affect your leg extension and the amount of hip flexion 
thruout the stroke, which is what you want to accomplish (one side of you just 
thinks its shorter than the other... raise the floor on that side and you fool 
your body... like walking on the crowned road that you mentioned).  Using
different crank arm lengths on each side will affect the amount of leverage
you have on the pedals, which seems like it would have all kinds of negative
side effects and throw your body all out of whack! 

Kevin

    
    This seems as good a note as any...
    
    I don't how many people in here read EURO_RANDONNEUR, but goin gby the
    US replies, not many, so I'll pose this question to the bigger audience
    (and annoy EURO_RANDONNEUR readers who will be bored of it by now...).
    
    I have had back trouble for years, but only recently bothered seeking
    medical advice. In the spine, the bottom 4 vertebrae are fused
    together. My problem is that the 5th one is also fused. I was given 2-3
    months physiotherapy, where the problem was put down to cycling making
    a bad situation worse. I had little strength and no flexibility in my
    back, and the hope was that physio would give me this and hopefully
    relieve the back pain. Physio now believes that they have done all that
    they can and that my cycling is exagerating the problem.
    
    In the past, my back would be exceptionally painful every 2-3 weeks.
    After all the physio, it now just feels constantly sore, but not so
    painful. However, I have been warned that if the problem persists then
    I will need to seek a proper fix rather than make my body work around
    it and *may* have to consider giving up cycling. They way that the last
    bit was said, implied that that was likely to happen.
    
    I'm currently doing stretches and sit ups, but I asked about the
    possibilty of riding with a back support. I was told that it was worth
    a try although I would probably ride worse at first as it would effect
    my pedalling style. Has anyone in here had any experience with these?
    My fear is that I become too dependant on it and that I start needing
    to use it even off the bike, which, in my mind, is worse than I am just
    now. I would prefer an actual fix, which I've been told is unlikely,
    rather than trying to work with the defect, but if I could guarantee
    being able to ride without problems, then I'll give it a go...
    
    Any comments welcome...
    
    Graham.
           

     How old are you Graham? (if you don't mind my asking...)
    
        Chip

IN EURO_... he said he was 22.

ed

Have you considered riding a recumbent? The riding position is more relaxed
and your back is supported.

I'm planning on taking my Kingcycle up to Edinburgh for the (English) August
Bank Holiday weekend, so if you want to give it a try I'm sure we could come to
some arrangement. Or you've got Neatwork down in the Borders who have a whole
host of recumbents to try.

One word of warning though -- they're not cheap! 

-Les.

Oh no, not ANOTHER note about Graham's back!...

































...only joking. He needs your advice, cycling noters of the world!


Rod

    
    All EURO_RANDONNEUR noters of the world, hit next unseen...  :*)
    
    Yes, I am indeed 22. I have been told that it will feel better as I get
    older. Not because it will get better, but because the rest of my body
    will deteriorate to the same level. At 22, this is some way away and
    seems a very defeatist attitude, anyway...
    
    Re. Recumbents
    
    For my style of riding, they wouldn't be of much use, but, if it was
    the only way to ride a bike without being crippled, then I might be
    interested...
    
    Graham.

     Graham, did you wait for Note .22 until you responded?? :-) My, my...
    A young strapping fellow like yourself shouldn't be saddle with ail-
    ments, aches, and pains already!
    
     You've got the long mile to go yet... Hope it feels better!
    
         Chip