Conference noted::bicycle

    Up until this season I've always used Specialized Turbo's.  I found
    them to be the liveliest, fastest, best performing clincher tire.
    I also found them to be the most difficult to mount.  They also
    seem to cut and puncture fairly easily.
    
    This season I've switched to Michelin Comps.  After 200 miles on
    the road everything is fine.  They aren't as lively as the Turbo
    but they seem to have a softer ride, which is a definite improvement
    over the Turbo.
    
    I prefer the slicks over treaded tire.  The traction is quite good,
    and they still hold well on wet roads (well, as good as any other
    skinny tire will).
    
    

I also had used Specialized Turbos until this year.  About a month ago
I converted my sewups to clichers with the new Mavic Open 4CD rims. 
At that time I bought a pair of the Performance Kevlar bead tires with
the center rib ( I forget the name; the lightest narrowest ones).  I
went for the rib just to get a little extra wear out of them.  The slicks
are supposed to be a little better rolling resistance.  At 115 psi the
tires roll very well and I can keep up with most everyone on a downhill
except thru sharp turns; which has more to do with courage and technique.

They have performed well and worn very little in the approximately 300
miles in the last two months.  This is an early account but I am pleased
so far.  I may try the slicks next.

Steven Le Blanc in Colorado.

< Note 1140.2 by CUJO::LEBLANC "uppers are downers and downers are uppers" >
                             -< Performance ribs >-

I agree with the previous 2 replies.  I prefer the Specialized Turbo R's, tho 
they're a bit expensive and hard to get (no mailorder anymore).  I use them 
for racing and long distance (which for me is racing, anyway).  I use the 
Performance clone of the Turbo R for training, since they're a little cheaper 
and I can get them anytime.  (Both slicks, BTW).

I've tried the Michelin's, but didn't really like them, mainly because they 
quite a bit bigger in diameter and wider than the Turbos, and its a problem 
switching back and for with the turbos.  They did seem to last forever.  (Hey 
Dave, I've got one unused one left... want it for $10?)

Kevin

    .-1 brought up a point that I was going to ask.  I noticed that
    both Nashbar and Performance no longer carry Turbos.  I got 1700
    miles out of a Turbo S on the rear wheel (front wheel still OK),
    (lots of those were trainer miles!) but my favorite bike store,
    plus the 2 mail order biggies no longer carry Specialized.
    
    What gives??

    Specialized made a marketing decision to drop mail order as 
    channel.  Must have been too many complaints from home town bike
    shops.  They own such a large percentage of the tire market that
    they probably figured that loyal Specialized users will seek out
    new sources for their products.

    I have been using Specialized touring II K-4's for my touring bike and
    they have been nearly bullet proof (no flats on 3 sets ~2500
    miles/set).  Really great tires (kinda heavy).  I am now running a set
    of 700/25 on my road bike (I really hate flats and am willing to carry
    the extra weight).  I have found that the local bike shops were getting
    close on the same price as Nashbar until they (Nashbar) dropped them.
    Gee, I wonder if they will go up in price now?

    Stopped by the Boston area Nashbar outlet this past weekend.  They
    had a number of Specialized tires they were selling out.  I know
    they had Turbo R/K4's in particular.  This is probably the last
    you'll see of Specialized at Nashbar.
    

     
                     <   Avocet K20's  >
    
        I've been running Avocet K20's for several years now and have
    had exceptionally good luck with them. Their 700x20c smooth tire
    weighs in at 245gms. and are rated for 125 psi. (my shop told me
    a little more is no problem). They are kevlar lined and withstand
    punctures very well, as I get 1500 miles out of my rear tire 
    before I change it (I'd rather change a little early than flat out
    on a ride). The ride can be a little stiff, you may feel every 
    minute crack in the road, but if it's worth the performance to you,
    give it a try. These retail for around 18.95 and to the best of
    my knowledge, are quite available. BTW I'm a 200 pound rider and
    sometimes push pretty hard, and if these tires have treated me well,
    you should have no problem. d:-).
    
          Dave
    

< Note 1140.8 by FRSBEE::D_LINNUS >

                     <   Avocet K20's  >

Are these as hard to mount as Turbo R's?

          
            RE: .9
    
                I've never owned any Turbo's.....but I can tell
    you that the first time you'll mount this tire it does take some
    straining and pulling to get the bead over the edge of the rim.
    After it's mounted once the bead must stretch a little `cuz after
    that it's pretty routine should you remove it many times after for
    wheel truing etc.........
    
    Dave
    

    I've got a question for both Tubular and clincher riders.  What
    pressure can you safely exceed the manufacturer's guidelines by?
    If my Michelins say 110 lbs. max, can I safely put 120, 125Lbs.
    in?  
    
    I ask this because I always fill to the recommended 110 lbs., but
    when I ride, the tire seems to be a less full than it should be.
    So, if I put in an extra 10 or 15 lbs. in, There should be lower
    rolling resistance.  I know the ride is probably harsher, but I
    hate to look down and see the tire warping under my weight!  Do
    any of you folks ride above the limits?  I understand that with
    Tubulars you can ride them at 130 lbs. or more.  Is this true?
    
    Dave

    RE: .8, .9
    
    The "VAR" tool works pretty good on the Turbo's.  I have had a tough
    time with the Turbo and a "Quick-Stic" (tool is too thick).
    
    Mike

re. .8  You weigh 200 lb and use a 700x20?  I would assume you would use a
        700x28 at least on the back.  I weigh about 180 - 185 and use the 28's
        on the back.  It's easier on the rim, they last longer, give better 
        traction and prevent most "compression flats" without sacrificing too 
        much performance.  I would suggest it to anyone over about 170 lbs.

It is simply a fact that less weight on a tire will give better performance. 
But can anyone think that they can feel a real difference between a kevlar bead
tire and a wire bead tire?  I've been using the kevlar bead tires for a few
years but lately I've decided to save about $6 a pop and get the wire bead
version.  To tell the truth I don't think you can feel a difference.

    I thought the main difference between wire and kevlar bead tires
    was that the kevlar folded better (for sticking under your seat).
    There's also some miniscule difference in weight, but nothing to
    "feel".  But what do I know?  I ride tubulars!
    
    MATT

    Whether you can exceed the manufacturer's recommendations for pressure
    depends on a lot of things -- your rims, your weight, and the kind of
    riding you're doing.  If you're a fairly light guy riding a TT on a
    smooth road with hook bead rims that happen to match your tires, you
    can exceed the pressure.  You're still taking a risk; probably the
    greatest cause of DNFs in TTs are flats that arise from overinflation.
    
    Good tubulars handle compression (bumps and potholes) better, and they
    react differently to overinflation.  Usually, unless the tire's old,
    the stitching won't start to pull apart, so you're safe overinflating
    it (within reason). Most of the high-end Vittorias can be run at
    130-150psi. (Being heavy, I use 120 for races). As somebody pointed out
    earlier, though, the life of the tire will be greatly reduced by riding
    it like this. 
    
    MATT

    
            RE: .13
    
                I guess I've had pretty good luck as tires and rims
    go....I do weigh a solid 200 and have ridden 700x20's front and
    rear for 4 years now. I had a stock Mavic rim (I don't even know
    the model) on my Peugeot which treated me very well. Like I said
    `tho, I change tires before they look like their worn to nothing,
    and with 2K plus miles each year, I'll bet I can count the flats
    on one hand I've had. I do keep my wheels very true at all times,
    `tho I have snapped a spoke or two before......
             I just took off two 700x25 120 psi tires off of the new
    bike I bought (which came on the Mavic MA40's) and I put on two
    Avocet K20's....I don't think its' the Kevlar lining, but the 
    higher pressure, thinner width, and less rolling resistance
    make one heck of a difference ! I'll never go with a heavier,
    wider tire again.....I'm sold on those Avocet baloney skins....
    BTW, I do have 36 spoke front and rear....I need them...d:-)
    
        Dave
    

    Specialized Turbo S                            
    
    	I used a set of clincher wheels for a tour (unloaded with sag
    support) last week. I hadn't use this set of wheels for about a
    year (Turbo S, Mavic G40, 36 hole hi-flange). Compared to tubulars, 
    these things were extremely rude over even a slightly bumpy surface.
    The extra weight was noticeable, but not nearly as noticeable as
    the difference in ride.  My headset will get me for this...
    
    Tubular Overinflation - 
    
    	Don't do it to a cheap tubular.  The casing of a Vittoria Special
    Pro or a Wolber Neo-Pro will develop a bubble when a Criterium Seta,
    a CX, or a CG wouldn't. 
    
    	Something else to consider is that expensive tires will be rideable
    after a flat repair while the cheap ones will get lumpy.  Purchase
    price (on tubulars) is inversely proportional to cost of ownership.

      I have been running specailized turbo slicks for the past couple
    of years and have loved them.  The fastest clincher I have used.
    I have also used Avocet, Michelin and Panasonic but was dissatisfied
    with wear, rolling resistance, performance or quality.  
      Well this winter when I visited Branford Bike in Conn. they had
    Vittoria clincher tires 2 for $35.00 ( they are now about $40.00
    apiece).  I thought I would give them a try.  I wish I had bought
    more of them.  They have to be (in my opinion) the best clincher
    on the market.  Vittoria says that the Oscar X (the model I bought)
    is made with the same casing that it's tubular tires are made of.
    These tires with 120 psi and one 150 pound passenger are the most 
    comfortable I have ridden while still being extremely fast. The
    cornering performance is exceptional as well. Now I only need to
    find out how long they will last.  Not long I imagine since they
    are so fun to ride.  
      My only problem.  Has anyone seen these tires for under $40.00
    each?
    
    						Norm

    re: .17
    
>   Tubular Overinflation -
    
>   Don't do it to a cheap tubular.  The casing of a Vittoria Special
>   Pro or a Wolber Neo-Pro will develop a bubble when a Criterium Seta,
>   a CX, or a CG wouldn't.
    

    I wouldn't call Wolber Neo-Pros a cheap tubular. I've been riding
    Neo-pros for races and SP-1's for training for about a year with
    out any problems at 120 psi. 
    
    I did flat one of the SP-1's which turned out to be from a sharp
    edge on the rivet that wore through the casing and tube. I patched
    it and have been riding it for a month now. 

    I use Vittoria Oscar X clinchers. I have tried Specialized Turbo
    R, Michelin Hi Lite, and Avocets, and the Oscar X's seem much nicer.
    
    Howabout these stats for the Oscar X: 195g, 150 PSI, 19mm with a
    casing (tread) the same as on their tubular tires.
    
    I raced on them last weekend in the rain, had them pumped up to 130psi,
    and they were great in the turns, and had the feel of a tubular.
                   
    I found them for $35/ea at Frank's Spoke 'N Wheel in Framingham,MA.
    $35 is a lot for a clincher ... but the ride is sooo smoooth!
    
    Mark
    

    
     Just a quick update/note of interest. There is an excellent article
    in this month's cycling rag about tires. All the major manufacturers
    are interviewed. They all agreed on the following:
    
     - Tubulars still are the fastest rolling things on a rim, but the
       clinchers I right behind. With all the new advancements it is
       believed that clinchers will either become as good or the difference
       between them and tubulars will not be negligable. 
       MY OPINION: I believe, due to the current growth of the sport
                   in the U.S. more serious research is going into the
                   clincher, hence the major advancements.
    
     - The traction issue was another unanimous point of agreement.
       "Bologna skins" provide just as much traction as treaded tires.
       The reason is that there just isn't enough "tire surface to road"
       contact for treads to make any difference. This is true of wet
       or dry conditions. The only exception noted was contact with
       manhole covers or painted highway lines under wet conditions.
       There might be a slight advantage to treads, but no one was betting
       the farm. Major reason for treaded tire volumes: The consumer
       thinks there is an advantage and feels safer (auto-tire reasoning).
       They went on to say that smooth tires are probably a little better
       on wet roads because there is better road to tire contact. After
       all, they agreed that the real reason for traction/friction lies
       in the raod surface itself.
    
     - And lastly, Kevlar. Unanimous again. It's lousy "rolling" material.
       More friction. And they said that "flat protection" is increased
       all that much. It's more of a fad than anything playing on the
       consumers "geez, they use it in bullet-proof vests, it must be
       great in a bicycle tire" theme. 
    
    So, that's what they said. I believe it. Seemed to be straight poop.
    They all make the tires that had the features they both endorsed
    and put down. Consumer driven market, or what???!!!!????
    
    Chip

Last night on the commute home, I hit a small rock (or something) at about
25 mph.  About 30 yards after that, I heard the dreaded hissing.  When I
removed the tube, I found two "snakebite" marks on the inside center of the
tube, indicating the impact with the rock had caused the rim to bite into the
tube.  I stuck on a new tube, and patched the flat one when I got home.  I
checked the wheel and the rim strip, and everything looked fine.

On the commute this morning, I flatted twice (really blows the commuting
schedule).  The first was after a small bump, so I thought maybe my wheel was
weakened a little or something.  After the second flat, I was out of tubes and
on my last patch, so I spent several minutes examining the wheel.

I finally found one tiny spur on each edge of the rim, right where I was
getting the puncture.  What it looked like was that the impact of the rock had
mashed a small divet on each side, resulting in some metal being forced toward
the tube.  The spurs were not very sharp at all, just tiny bumps.
I folded up a dollar and placed it between the new tube and the 
wheel, and managed to make it all the way into work.

My question is this:  can I just take a file to the rim (a Mavic, by the way)
and remove the spurs, or will the rim be weakened so that any bump will cause it 
to pinch the tube?  Since the spurs were small and not very sharp, I suspect 
there had to be at least some flexing going on to cause the flats this morning.

Any thoughts?

Bill

P.S. To top it off, after I fixed the flat last night, and got moving again, I
ran into a bee or wasp, which managed to sting me right in the corner of my
mouth (guess this probably belongs in another topic).  Anyway, I'm a little
scared to climb into the saddle after work tonight.   :-(

    That's what I've done... use a small circular file to smooth things
    out... for both "divots" and not-so-smooth valve stem drill holes.
    
    I got nailed by a wasp on the commute a couple of weeks ago.  Little
    bastard managed somehow to get inside my T shirt and had a field day.
    And one day last week was my tire nightmare: big sidewall puncture,
    followed by 3 flats nursing a duct taped hack the rest of the way in.
    
    Kratz

    re .22:
    
    Is the rim actually deformed?  Bent in or out?  If so, I suspect it may
    be weakened enough to be a problem.  Otherwise, I'd just file off the
    spurs on both sides and forget about it.  
    
    I don't think the fact that you had additional flats necessarily means
    the rim was flexing.  The tire and tube flex with every rotation. 
    Under the high inflation pressure it wouldn't take much to wear a hole
    in a tube from rubbing against any kind of metal protrusion.  That's
    one reason you have to use rim tape - to prevent holes from the tube
    rubbing against the heads of the spoke nipples.
    
    On the bee subject...  I thought I was the only one!  Saturday at about
    the 65 mile mark I had a bee run into my thigh, get stuck on my shorts
    and nail me twice before I could reach down and swat it away!  Good
    thing I wasn't passing anyone at the time as I swerved all over the
    road, screaming and swearing!  Stung like crazy for about 5 miles. 
    Actually, I'm glad I was riding - the stings swelled up, caused a
    2-inch rash and lump on my thigh, and went back down and faded away!

    re:.24, and since your circulation was working so well, you pumped all
    the bee's venom through your circ system quickly.  You should have
    stopped to remove the stinger (which pumps long after being severed
    from the insect).
    
    re:.22, sounds like you should file it, oh, and, be careful on the way
    home [and don't bother buying any lottery tickets this week either
    :-)].
    
    ed

    
    	Where is the excess metal? If it's on the spoke hole, have a look
    at the type of rim tape you use. I had a problem using the elastic type
    that stays in place just by tension. I was finding that the tape
    slightly moved exposing the corner of spoke hole, and puncture after
    puncture after...
    	Anyway, I've moved back to the old cloth style that is glued onto
    the rim. It's also slightly wider and a lot stronger so you don't get
    anything poking through the tape. I've been warned about the cloth
    rotting from the rain, but I've yet to see that happen.
    
    Graham.
    

Finally got some time to enter an update on the rim damage (note 1140.22).

I used a small round file and a small triangular file to smooth up the metal as
much as possible.  It also seemed that the ridge that is cupped over to form the
edge of the wheel had separated from the side a little. I used some needlenose
pliers to flatten it back against the side.  I finished up with a litle emory
cloth to smooth things out.

I've ridden ~130 miles on it since, with no flats.

Another question, though.  It seems that all of the damage I smoothed up should
be covered by the tire edge, and should never contact the tube.  Can anyone
explain what happens on a "tube-pinch" flat?   What exactly causes the two
parallel cuts on the tube.  Is it the rim or the tire?


Thanks for the input.

Bill

    My pinch flats are usually caused by hitting a pot hole or rock that
    completely depresses the tire so that the tube is pinched against the
    rim.  One time I had a cuppla hunnerd of 'em in the same tube; I was
    riding a steel grate bridge when the flat occurred.
    
    ed

    I am searching for tires to replace the Specialized II-K4's that were
    shredded in my bike-car encounter.  They are 27" x 1 1/8".  
    
    A local bike shop says that the metric 700 size will work.  My calculations 
    (25.4mm = 1") show that works out to 27.559".  Will this slight diameter 
    increase work or am I playing with instant death ?
    
    What tire can you recommend for fast 1-2 hour riding, something that
    feels light & fast, yet *safe* !  The idea of going super skinny sounds
    exciting but I don't need too much excitement (of the gravitational
    kind).
    
    What happens when I go to narrower tire, < 1 1/8" ?  A harsher ride is
    obvious, but will the weight savings, narrower profile, and less
    rolling resistance be noticeable ?

Going from that kind of tire to, say, a 700x20 high pressure tire
like the Continental Grand Prix will certainly be noticeable.

This would represent a major transition for you.

Chip

I found that the ideal road wheels for me are the 700c (or 27" X 1") tires
combined with a 4-cross, one-interweave spoke pattern (vs the standard 3-cross,
one-interweave).  The smaller tires give less rolling resistance and the longer
spokes give more shock absorption.  You hardly feel the small imperfections on
the road like you do with a 3-cross.  You can use either low-flange or
high-flange hubs, but the low-flange obviously gives you an even smoother ride. 

Jim 

    As far as I know, 700c and 27" are not interchangable. Something sounds
    funny here.  
    
    In terms of tires, Continental Grand Prix (available in 18, 20, 23mm
    widths) are real nice, but expensive.  
    
    On a cheaper end which I am now using so far with good success on our
    tandem are Victoria Techno.  They funny looking, black/orange/white,
    but have kevlar casing. They are available in many widths up to 28mm.
    
    If the roads you are riding on are in good shape, go with the narrower
    tires, if they have a lot of pot holes, bumps, etc, I suggest going
    with 23mm.  They will be less harsh and less likely to snake bite. 
    
    Whatever you choose, use the correct pressure, especially with the
    narrower tires.
    
    steve

>>    As far as I know, 700c and 27" are not interchangable. Something sounds
>>    funny here.  

That's correct.  I have one bike that uses 27 X 1 and another that uses 700C.
When installed on the correct rims for the tire size, the ride is essentially
the same.  You need to pick the correct tire for the rims you have.

Jim

    Yes, 27" and 700c tires are not interchangeable.  If you are replacing
    the rims, you can go with 700c, but check to make sure your brake pads
    will reach - the 700c rims are about 3/16" smaller diameter.  If you
    have access to the web, check out:
    
    http://www.tiac.net/users/captbike/Tire_Sizing.html
    
    And since when is 23mm a 'wide' tire?  :-)  
    
    Specialized makes their 'Transistion' clinchers in 27x1 and 27x1 1/8. 
    At least Nashbar had them last I looked.  Ask at your shop, there are
    still some decent 27" tires being made.
    
    Karl

    A long time ago when I did not know better I was sold 700c tires for my
    27" rims.  I was on a long bike tour when I needed my "backup" tire ...
    guess what.  I'm still cursing that bike shop.
    -Larry

Since we're on this topic, are the 27 X 1 inch tires on the way out?  I seem to
have a harder time finding them than I had 4 years ago.  What's the story? Am
I going to have to change rims eventually?

Jim

re -.1

Yes

and it's worse than that, because as has already been pointed out - if your 
bike was made for 27's and you fit 700's, you will undoubtedly find the 
blocks don't reach the rims.  Resign yourself to an expensive change or find 
some 27's and keep your own stock. 700's and sprints are about the same on 
overall diameter, I was fortunate that some of my frames were built for 
"sprints and mudguards" which meant you could just get lightweight 27's in 
with the blocks at the top and 700's in with the blocks at the bottom.

I leave you to guess just who was behind the suggestion we should all go over 
to 650's .....

re .32 (spokes and hubs)

I didnt realize anyone still made high flange hubs anymore (except for track
bikes, and thats $$$ and harder to find.)  I had a pair on my first crit
wheels, and cant say I noticed/remember a difference.


--roger

>>I didnt realize anyone still made high flange hubs anymore (except for track
>>bikes, and thats $$$ and harder to find.)  I had a pair on my first crit
>>wheels, and cant say I noticed/remember a difference.

They may not.  My high flange Campy Record hubs are over 20 years old.

Jim

    The local bike shops did not have much in 27", so I finally ordered
    some nice IRC 27"x1" (Triathlon/Kevlar, 115 psi) and 27"x1 1/8" 
    (Road Winner II, 105 psi) tires from Nashbar.  They are relatively light 
    weight (280g) and have a real nice rubber surface.  Riding on the 
    Road Winner II's, the difference (compared to my old Specialized Touring 
    tires) is very noticeable.