Conference noted::bicycle

    You already know the answer. If a combination of stem length and
    seat adjustment don't make it the only other alternative is a
    correct frame. Mixtes are a no-no. I haven't read one positive
    thing about them anywhere. They're sloppy, low quality, made of
    pig iron and are a generally weaker frame. The reasons, the major
    manufacturers recognize the fact that the design stinks and no
    one would use one in competition. In the "olden" days when women
    wore skirts they served a purpose, now they continue to be made
    for the same reason that England still has a king and queen (I
    guess - I can't think of any other reason).
    
    There are a great many szes and configurations of stems and seat
    post set-ups (also pedal/cleat/cage adjustments). I would go to
    a GOOD shop and explain the situation. Bring the bike and the wife.
    
    The soreness could be a number things, but my guess is poor position
    due to poor fit. Especially the neck. Elbows might be cured by gloves
    (road shock) but are probably fit caused as well. 
    
    Don't break open the piggy bank yet. You may get out of it cheaper
    than you think. GOOD LUCK.
    
    Chip

    If soreness still develops after a "proper fit" massage works many
    wonders. :-)
    
    ed

    To give you a variance in frame geometries, my wife's bike when
    I met her was a 19 1/2" frame with about 21 1/2" top tube.  The
    shortened the stem to 60mm but it was still too much stretch. 
    She now rides a 19 1/2" frame with a 19 3/4" top tube and a 70mm
    stem.
    
    Besides going to shops, go to some club rides and get to know other
    riders and try her on some other bikes.
    
    Women riders:  Don't just go to a bike shop and ask for a women's
    bike.  Because something is marketed as such, it may not be any
    different than a man's bike.  Many taller women I know fit better
    on a men's frame with a short top tube.  TOP TUBES LENGTH VARIES
    BETWEEN MANUFACTURERS. Get the proper fit via assistance
    of a knowledgable person and/or fit kit, then find a bike that matches.
    Ask the shop to change the saddle to womens and if need be, shorten
    the stem.
    
    steve               

    
    I can relate directly to your wife's problem; I had the same one.  I 
    went through the whole "fit business" and got a nice bike.
    (I'm 5'8", with a 34" inseam.)  
    
    I enjoyed riding except for the pain in my shoulder and neck.  I
    just resolved myself to it, and the few times I went out, I just took
    along some Advil. 
    
    When I bought my fiance a new bike this year, I rode it a few times,
    and discovered that there was no pain at all. I got him a Miyata
    Triple cross (see earlier note) and there was no discomfort at all.
    The Triple cross is discribed as 
    
    	"...Finally somebody put ...ATB comfort into a lightweight bike.
         The heavy-dudy cranks, midweight tires and lightweight frame
         are going to redefine cycling enjoyment.  Throught it all, you'll
         be sitting pretty with your control panel of thumb shifters and
         and brake levers on a compact 52cm highbar."
    
    It's a cross between ATB and touring bike, put the point is that the 
    handle bars are up very high, and I can ride all day with no discomfort
    at all.  The frame is the exact size of my old racing-style bike, but
    the handlebars seemed to make the difference. 
    
    Several of my women friends have also tried the bike, with the same 
    reaction.  Perhaps you can put that style handlebars on her bike.  
    
    Kelly
    
    
    
    

>    I got him a Miyata Triple cross (see earlier note) and there was no 
>    discomfort at all. The Triple cross is discribed as 
    
>    	"...Finally somebody put ...ATB comfort into a lightweight bike.
>         The heavy-dudy cranks, midweight tires and lightweight frame
>         are going to redefine cycling enjoyment.  Throught it all, you'll
>         be sitting pretty with your control panel of thumb shifters and
>         and brake levers on a compact 52cm highbar."
    
>    It's a cross between ATB and touring bike, put the point is that the 
>    handle bars are up very high, and I can ride all day with no discomfort
>    at all.  The frame is the exact size of my old racing-style bike, but
>    the handlebars seemed to make the difference. 
    
    I bought a Bianchi Advantage which is the same style as the above with
    700x3? wheels (I think there on sale now for $319)   
    
    She loves it!!!
    

    	Besides going to a frame with a shorter top tube, like a Terry,
    temporary relief can be attained by bringing the bars back and UP
    to get away from the stretched out, painful, position.
    	There are stems with much longer necks called swan stems or
    goosenecks that will raise the bars a couple of inches and have
    almost no extension (forward displacement of bars). These, used
    in conjunction with the randanaur (sp?) style bars which come out
    from the stem and RISE before curving into the drops, can help.
    These alter the steering geometry of the bike and are bandaids compared
    to a properly designed short top tube bike like Georgena's beauties.
    	- a Terry fan,     Chris

    	What is she wearing on her head?  After several seasons
    of wearing a heavy touring style helmet (Bell Tourlite ?) I
    suffered thru intense pain at the base of the back of my
    neck and shoulders.  Last season my wife bought me a Bell
    Ovation, one of the new light weight foam models and the 
    pain has virtually disappeared on short rides and is only
    somewhat mild on the longer ones.  The point is that if your
    neck muscles are acustomed to carrying a lot of weight its
    going to take some time to get accustomed to it and all the
    frame fitting adjustments aren't going to help that problem.
    It worked for me and might be just what she needs to try before
    investing in a new bike.
    
    						Jerry
    

	Try this:-

A	=	Pubis bone to floor (standing erect, barefoot)

B	=	Shoulder (Acromion (sp ?) the outer edge of the upper 
		arm bone) to wrist fold.

C	=	Pubis bone to upper edge of sternum (clavicle is NOT a 
		musical instrument)

	NOTE:  If you can't find these places on your body get help 
from someone (a friend ?) who can, read your owner's manual, see 
Gray's anatomy, a first aid CPR book, or just forget it.  

	A	Seat Tube	B+C	Top tube

	80	51		100	53
	81	51.7		101	53.4
	82	52.4		102	53.8
	83	53.1		103	54.1
	84	53.7		104	54.4
	85	54.3		105	54.7
	86	54.9		106	55
	87	55.5		107	55.3
	88	56.1		108	55.6
	89	56.7		109	55.9
	90	57.5		110	56.2
	91	57.9		111	56.5
	92	58.5		112	56.8
	93	59		113	57.1
	94	59.5		114	57.4
	95	60		115	57.7
	96	60.5		116	58
	97	60.9		117	58.3
	98	61.3		118	58.6
	99	61.7		119	58.8
	100	62.1		120	59
				121	59.2
				122	59.4
				123	59.6
				124	59.8
				125	60

	Yes Veronica, all measurements ARE in centimeters.  If you 
only have an inches tape measure either buy a metric tape or multiply 
your inch measurements by 2.54 (approx).

	Have a fun week-end measuring each other/getting measured BY 
each other - and remember, its B + C that matters more than A !

	R

Oh, extrapolate/interpolate as required - and don't believe that TOO 
much precision is required.

    Ain't he the Dickens?!
    

    Thanks for all the info, folks.  It's certainly given us a few things
    to try.  Now if only the rain would stop.
    
    Her helmet is a Scott Aspen Atom which weighs in at 440 gm.  I thought
    that this was reasonably light, after all, I'm still using a Bell
    TourLite.  After looking at a few helmet ads in the local magazines,
    I guess that's not the case.
    
    One point: from where to where is the top tube measurement?  From
    centre line on the seat tube to centre line on the head? tube?
    
    By the way, they (somebody) changed the definition of an inch. 
    Under the old definition the conversion factor between inches and
    centimetres was approx 2.54.  An inch is now defined as 25.4
    millimetres.  Add that to your trivia bank.

    Richard

    
<    Her helmet is a Scott Aspen Atom which weighs in at 440 gm.  I thought

very heavy by today's standards.
    
<    One point: from where to where is the top tube measurement?  From
<    centre line on the seat tube to centre line on the head? tube?
 
Yes

re  < Note 1091.10 by MEO78B::SHERRATT >
>                           -< Top Tube Delimiters? >-
    
>    One point: from where to where is the top tube measurement?  From
>    centre line on the seat tube to centre line on the head? tube?

	All engineering dimensions are normally centre to centre.  I 
don't understand where you are getting confused, there is only one 
centre line at the head tube, its concentric with the stem.

	R

	This is from the female perspective.  I'm 5'2" tall with a
	27" inseam.  I put over 3,000 on a 19" Univega and every ride
	ended with stiff and painful shoulders, sore neck and stiff arms.      
	It didn't dampen my enthusiasm for cycling but I didn't think
	anything that was so much fun should be so uncomfortable and
	painful!  I originally thought it was just due to "tenseness" while
	riding until I observed other riders who were able to vary positions 
	while riding (especially their arms) and seemed so much more flexible.
	
	At the end of the '87 season I purchased a Terry Despatch.  Yes,
	it is one of those funny looking bikes with the 24" front wheel.
	Since I've been riding my Terry I haven't had a sore neck, stiff arms
	or shoulder pain.

	The overall smaller sizing of the Terry "fit" me better but 
	the big difference for me was in top tube length and distance from
	top tube to ground.  

				Terry		Univega
	top tube		19.3" (49cm)	20.5" (52cm)
	ground to top tube 	28.7" (73cm)	30" (76cm)


	As previous notes have stated, proper fit is crucial so don't
	compromise on the fit.


				Laura

	
		

    re .10
    
>       By the way, they (somebody) changed the definition of an inch. 
>    Under the old definition the conversion factor between inches and
>    centimetres was approx 2.54.  An inch is now defined as 25.4
>    millimetres.  Add that to your trivia bank.
 

    Im confused, these conversion factors seem consistant to me...
    
    Rob

    re.13
    
    	Can a man ride a bike with a woman's frame ?  Why don't
    they make Terry's for men with legs as long as womens?  They
    could call them Jerry's :-)  That way us guys with long legs 
    in proportion to our torso length could be more comfortable
    too.  Let me know what Georgina thinks of this.
    
    					Jerry 

    I have seen many men on Terrys.
    
    Most of them were nowhere near 6 ft tall though.
    
    ed

    Re .12
>	All engineering dimensions are normally centre to centre.  I 
>    don't understand where you are getting confused, there is only one 
>    centre line at the head tube, its concentric with the stem.
    
    Understood.  But you could measure the tube itself, inside to inside.
    After all, all engineering disciplines have their eccentricities.

    
    Richard

    re .14    
    
    
>    re .10
    
>       By the way, they (somebody) changed the definition of an inch. 
>    Under the old definition the conversion factor between inches and
>    centimetres was approx 2.54.  An inch is now defined as 25.4
>    millimetres.  Add that to your trivia bank.
 

>    Im confused, these conversion factors seem consistant to me...
    

    Under the previous definition an inch was defined along the lines
    of "1/12 of the length of King Henry VIII left FOOT" or some such
    nonsense like that.  I can't remember the exact definition.  It
    just happened to be *almost* exactly 2.54 centimetres.  The new
    definition makes is *exactly* equal to 25.4 millimetres.  No "almost".
    As I said, trivia.
    
    Richard

I'm still confused.  In school I learned that 1 cm is exactly 10mm, 
by definition.  So how can something be exactly 25.4mm and almost 2.54cm?
Kind of like "exactly 100 cents and almost a dollar."  (I'm speaking
of US currency here.  If I didn't say this, someone would say "But
the Galumphic dollar has 34 cents, because that's how many fingers
King Poo-Bah of Galumphic has.")

Anyone else care to beat this horse?

	Used to be that inches and centimeters were defined on completely
	different bases.  Back then, an inch was ALMOST equal to 2.54
	centimeters (or 25.4 mm).  Some years ago some International
	Bureau of People Who Worry About Such Things redefined the inch
	to be EXACTLY equal to 2.54cm (or 25.4 mm).

	chris

        (8-( !
    

    Thanks for all the help.  The bike was basically badly set up. 
    After raising the seat post to the correct height and moving the
    saddle forward, the set up is just OK.  That probably means I'll
    be buying her a Terry, or clone, if she decides that she likes the
    sport.
    
    We have been out for the last few weekends and the pain has gone.
    The padded gloves and the light weight helmet probably helped too.
    
    Richard.

I bought a Terry a little over a year ago. Since then I have about 5,000 miles
on it.  I bought the Precision model and absolutely love it!  Mine has two
regular sized wheels as the 20 inch frame fit me well. Even then the handle
bar stem in very short. (I'm 5'6")

A just bought my second Terry this week.  :-)   I'd been looking for a mountain
bike but was have a tremendous time with length in the top tube, so I decided
to try and locate a Mt Marcy - Goergena's mountain bike.  The first time a took
it out I whipped out, but had a great time.

I located this bike at Bicycle Alley in Worcester. It was worth the drive from 
southern N.H. as I had to call Georgena to locate 18 inch frame size.  THe 
reason I mention Bicycle  Alley, is that I feel I got a great deal on his bike 
and I noticed a bunch of other Terry's there.  I also think they are running a
sale in the next week.  Might be a good time to call and check it out.

Danielle