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Conference noted::bicycle

Title: Bicycling
Notice:Bicycling for Fun
Moderator:JAMIN::WASSER
Created:Mon Apr 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:3214
Total number of notes:31946

1050.0. "Trikes in Britain." by ODIHAM::PHILPOTT_I (Col. Philpott is back in action...) Fri Mar 17 1989 12:50

    
    I know tricycles aren't bicycles, but...
    
    A chance remark in another conference sends me here looking for
    possible help.
    
    Please note that I am in Britain.
                     
    I am looking for a source of supply for a tricycle, for adult use (me). 
                                                                     
    The reason is that I want something that I can use to carry myself
    and a fairly large amount of camera equipment on forays into the
    English countryside. I've tried an ordinary bike and a backpack,
    but it really isn't on. Right now I am forced to use a car, but
    that means I travel too fast to see the best landscapes, and anyway
    I can't take a car down a narrow bridle-path...
    
    If the price weren't too high I'd even by two, so my wife could
    come along (or use it to go shopping)...
    
    /. Ian .\
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1050.1GET A CHILD TRAILERAKOV11::FULLERFri Mar 17 1989 13:1311
    I would look into a child trailer.  In the US they are made by
    Cannondale, Equinox, and Burley.  Simple to use they attached to
    they seat stays, weigh between 19 and 30 lbs, and can be covered
    in the rain. Prices are about $300. USD.  
    
    Equinox address:
    1142 Chestnut St.
    Cottage Grove, Oregon 97424
    
    steve
    
1050.2How about a conversion ?ULTRA::BURGESSFri Mar 17 1989 15:0513
re .0	Time was that almost all serious bike shops in England carried,
or could get, trike axles.  I don't know exactly where you are, but if
Holdsworth is still around in South Norwood (south of London) that would
be a good place to start.  Alternatively look for the more serious bike
shops near tracks, i.e. Herne Hill - Brixton, Dulwich (Dulwitch ?).

	The advantage of a trike axle conversion is that you can always
take it off and revert to a normal bicycle, not everyone likes or can
handle the way trikes steer.

	Reg

{PS, will a trike fit in the back of the L/R ?}
1050.3I've got one, but...NAC::KLASMANFri Mar 17 1989 15:3011
< Note 1050.0 by ODIHAM::PHILPOTT_I "Col. Philpott is back in action..." >
                            -< Trikes in Britain. >-

    
>    I am looking for a source of supply for a tricycle, for adult use (me). 
                                                                     
I have an old Schwinn that needs A LOT of loving care (a complete rebuild?) 
that I'd love to get rid of.  Its just taking up valuable storage space.  
Unfortunately, I'm in Nashua, NH.

Kevin
1050.4HAMPS::PHILPOTT_ICol. Philpott is back in action...Mon Mar 20 1989 07:2210
1050.5Some things to look forTRUCKS::REEVENicht neues im Westen What a RemarqueTue Mar 21 1989 11:5622
Ian,

My first recommendation is to find a good bike shop relatively near you.
Then, consult them with a good idea of the price you're willing to pay.
Add a hundred pounds extra (unless you're better at bargaining than I am)
and there you are. One happy camper with a new trike.

One make that I have noticed on the roads and in shops here in the U.K. is
Pashley. I've often toyed with the idea of getting one for those days when
I'm more interested in dawdling along the quieter routes. Do let us know
what you decide on.

Also, on the subject of bike trailers. All of the ones I've come across are
American and very expensive here. The Cannondale Bugger IV, for example, 
is over 300 pounds sterling! Of course, I've been looking into child
transport, not equipment carrying. There are a few English companies who
do models suitable for non-live cargo. A copy of Bicycle or some such
magazine should give you the contact addresses.

Let me know if I can help out further.

Tim
1050.6This is how I do it.JUMBLY::VAL_KKassessinoff, now you know a foreign languageThu Apr 06 1989 09:5414
    I am also both a cyclist and a photographer. I have my byke with
    a rear carrier and a large double-sided panier made by Raleigh.
    I can pack a week's needs into the many pockets and compartments.
    On day trips, the panier will hold a camera, three lenses, a small
    tripod, filters, films etc. with no trouble at all. This panier
    was bought locally from Berkshire Cycles about two and half years
    ago.
    
    Of course if you are intent on something even larger, then I've
    seen trailers advertised regularly in "CycleTouring". If you are
    interested, send me your mailstop and I'll forward a copy.
    
    Val.
    
1050.7HAMPS::PHILPOTT_ICol. Philpott is back in action...Wed Apr 12 1989 16:1522
    
    Thanks for all the input: faced with the suggestion of going and
    talking to the local bike shop, and reassured that what I wanted
    wasn't going to make me look a total fool, I did indeed go along.
    
    The local bike shop is also by way of being the local smithy (yes
    they even shoe horses ...) and when presented with the idea he
    scratched his head and said - "what you want isn't a trike, it's
    a sidecar".
    
    So, though no commercial sidecars appear to be available he's in
    the progress of making a lightweight sidecar for the bike. It'll
    be removable, and convertable between a cargo carrier and a
    baby-carrier (for later...). One special request is that it have
    a mounting for a camera mount, in the form of a clamp on the back
    to hold a mono-pod.
    
    Should be fun.
    
    Thanks again folks...
    
    /. Ian .\
1050.8Various, esp. lightweightsDOOZER::PENNEYRichard Penney 830 4114 @RKA 1/19Tue Jan 08 1991 17:13253
Sorry this contribution is somewhat belated - I've only recently discovered 
this conference.

In case folks are interested in knowing more about trikes...

To start with (and as stated in note 464.3), there are two distinct types
of adult trike, both of which have been made in Britain for a very long
time.  First is the utilitarian shopping/commuting type, generally sold to
people who, perhaps because of age or infirmity, feel safer coping with
three wheels than with two. 

Second, and the main subject of this note, is the serious racing or touring
type, which generally has a custom built frame (normally Reynolds 531,
occasionally 753), and quality lightweight fittings (Campag., Mavic,
whatever). This type is pretty well identical to a good handbuilt
lightweight bike from the seat tube forwards, but very different rearwards
of course - more on this below. Included in this type also are tandem
tricycles, something *really* different! 

In addition a few firms have made (and at least one still does make) trike
conversion kits. These fit any normal bike - it's simply a matter of
removing the rear wheel and bolting on the new axle + 2 wheels, plus a
couple of new widely splayed supplementary seat stays. The central part of 
the axle bolts to the rear dropouts, the extra seat stays run from the
seat pin clamp (longer bolt supplied) to the outward ends of the axle tube.

By the way, and before I go on, I am ignoring in this note the new breed of
recumbents - a temporary aberration which won't catch on...

Also by the way, if anyone who hasn't ridden a trike reckons it's easy
("can't ride a two-wheeler then??!??"), the verse at the end of this note
can be vouched for...

Here are the UK makers I am aware of.

1. Utilitarian type:

- W.R.Pashley Ltd, Stratford on Avon

	These have a "open" frame design, i.e. no top tube, so
	[dis]mounting is very easy - much like a traditional lady's frame
	except that there is only one down tube, not two, so I can't
	imagine rigidity is up to much. 
	
	They do make one touring model, with what appear to be reasonable
	lightweight fittings (eg 700c alloy rims, Suntour chainset), but
	still with the open frame design of unknown tubing type -
	certainly not 531 or equivalent - so unless disability makes easy
	[dis]mounting a must I would'nt recommend it for strenuous use. 

	Also, I think Pashley's engineering ability is questionable. They
	had a spate of potentially very dangerous axle breakages a few
	years ago, due to a childishly fundamental design fault. 

2. Genuine Racing/Touring:

- Higgins, London.

	Higgins are no longer in business, having folded in 1969, but 
	they have to be mentioned - the Higgins Ultralite pretty well 
	*was* the British lightweight trike industry (too big a word) for
	decades. There are still a fair number around (one of which I
	own), and their designs live on. 

	Standard spec. was Reynolds 531 d/b throughout, with fittings to 
	choice.  Also to choice was the drive system - either one-wheel 
	drive (OWD) to the left wheel, the other spinning freely, or 
	two-wheel drive (TWD) via a dinky little differential. OWD has 
	always been the norm for racing (less weight). An option for the 
	TWD was a hub-type brake integral with the differential.

	Frame design, as stated earlier, is similar to normal lightweight 
	bike from seat tube forwards.  At the rear there are two axle
	tubes (left and right), joined by brazing to a cradle of smaller
	curved tubes in the centre. This cradle gives clearance to the
	rear sprocket (and differential if TWD, in which case the
	cradle's a bit wider).  Chain stays are essentially as for a
	normal bike, running from bottom bracket back to aforesaid cradle
	and brazed to it.  Seat stays much more widely splayed than on a
	bike, running from seat lug to points near the outer ends of the
	axle tubes. 

	Drive shaft(s) are approx. 1/2 inch dia solid steel, not sure 
	what spec.  Modern replacements are SR96 I think, which may be
	better than what Higgins used [personally I'd love to have a
	titanium pair made!]. I'm not sure how much of their own
	machining work Higgins did - certainly some seems to have 
	been farmed out.  Eg their differentials were made by the Royal
	Ordinance factory, and were apparently part of some piece of
	artillery! 

	Axle bearings are standard bottom bracket fittings, combined with
	special ground steel cones keyed onto the drive shafts. They work
	well and stay in adjustment for very long periods assuming
	occasional greasing via the nipples provided. 

	I don't know what Higgins' production figures were. My current 
	one has frame no. 9366, meaning 93rd made in 1966, by which time
	Higgins, tricycling and cycling generally were well in decline. 
	
- Holdsworth, London

	Though no longer in business (apart from the name having been 
	acquired by some other firm), Holdsworth also have to be 
	mentioned because of their trike conversion kits, which I think
	sold in greater numbers than anyone else's. As far as I know all
	trike conversion kits, including Holdsworth, are OWD. I bought
	one new in 1959 (12 pounds as far as I remember) and was
	instantly hooked, i.e. became a barrow-boy to use the
	then-current term. 

- Ken Rogers, Hounslow (W.London)

	Ken and his dad seem to do everything that Higgins did and more, 
	eg have made the odd modern recumbent. He/they are actually very
	much the logical successor to Higgins, having bought Higgins up
	in '69. 

	They operate in back-garden shed mode, on the face of it working
	in extremely primitive conditions, but actually have solid 
	engineering credentials, both being ex-Fairey Aviation engineers.

	Rogers make, to order, trike frames, tandem trike frames and 
	conversion kits. Design is essentially same as Higgins (but so is 
	everybody else's), for which they do a full range of spares 
	including new differentials which they make themselves,
	including the gear-cutting.  

	As an alternative to a differential, and to OWD, they also do a
	simpler form of TWD with no differential. No, not a simple crude
	fixed axle (which would produce awful tyre slip on corners), this
	is a little unit incorporating rollers which always transmits
	drive to the slower-rotating drive shaft, i.e. the inside wheel
	on corners. The faster spinning wheel, whichever one it is, is
	always in overtaking (=spinning freely) mode, so apart from when
	you are running in a dead straight line it's really an
	alternating 2 x OWD system rather than true TWD.  I've seen and
	felt the weight of the unit and it's significantly lighter than a
	diff., but doesn't appeal to me - I'm happier with true TWD and
	resultant reduced wheel spin (to which OWD is prone). 

	Rogers are extremely friendly and helpful, and - as I found out 
	delightedly recently - they also have some key Holdsworth
	conversion kit spares, sufficient for me to get mine back into
	circulation (over the years I'd somehow lost all the bits other
	than the main axle tube). 


- George Longstaff, Newcastle-under-Lyme

	Longstaff makes bike and trike frames, including tandem.  Not
	sure about trike conversion kits but would guess so (if you can 
	make a trike frame, making a conversion set must be easy). Good
	reputation. They advertise a full range of trike spares which
	must mean Higgins, though I'm not sure how much of the mechanical
	stuff they make or get made them themselves - I suspect they may
	still get some of it from Rogers whom I believe they relied on to 
	start with. They do OWD and roller-based 2xOWD as 
	described above (probably obtained from Rogers), not sure about 
	proper diff-based TWD.

	Sample advertised starting prices are 500 pounds (stock), 550
	pounds (custom, 8 weeks). Both of these are OWD frame prices. 

	I have a feeling that the trike community regard Longstaff as a
	bit more "respectable" than Rogers. 


- Bob Jackson, Leeds

	Much the same applies as to Longstaff, except (a) I think that
	trikes are a smaller proportion of the business and (b) I seem to 
	remember hearing in the last year or so that ownership has
	changed - "the" Bob Jackson having parted company or something. 
	Anyone confirm/elaborate on this?


I don't know of any other current or recent trike builders. Before the war 
there were certainly others, including probably some of the really big 
firms like BSA who I think made utilitarian machines. Memory says a firm 
called Starley made differentials, maybe complete trikes too.

A few more general points on trikes (racing/touring type):

First, how does the speed compare with an equivalent bike?  Sadly, and
notwithstanding the occasional "bet having two wheels at the back means you
can go faster" comment, the increased drag (more bearings, extra tyre) and
weight mean that it is a bit slower in simple terms. However, the balance
is redressed a bit under some circumstances, eg slogging heavily laden up a
steep hill nearing the end of a long ride: absolutely no effort is wasted
balancing and the trike may have the edge here.  It's also worth mentioning
that for touring a trike is *much* easier to load safely with luggage than
a bike. It's also less likely to get stolen, though I hope that this
becomes less so as a result of this note! 


Here fwiw are some UK road times (mostly records achieved in 1990):

			 25		 50		 100
			miles		miles		miles

  Bike - Solo           42:37	      1:34:22         3:16:56
  Bike - Tandem 				      3:20:48
  Bike - Mixed Tandem 	46:33
 Trike - Solo		50:00         1:45:50         3:41:21
 Trike - Tandem 	45:36
 Trike - Mixed Tandem 	47:34         1:39:40


Finally, if you have a chance, try riding a trike! Based on the experience
of everyone I know that has, and assuming that you are used to normal
bike-riding, your first try will be scary - something to do with mind over
muscle going all wrong.  The problem is having to un-learn what you are 
used to.  I can do no better here than to include the following which
appeared in the Autumn '90 issue of the UK Tricycle Association Gazette. 

  The lairy young bikie
  To the trikie of old
  Why is it you need three wheels on the road?
  What is the attraction of this contraption?
  Are you insane, disabled, or both?
  Now our trikie much used to regular abuse, said,
  Is this a man or a mouse before me?
  Come prove your worth
  If my machine gives you mirth 
  Climb aboard, we'll soon see who's laughing!
  Young bikie, cocksure,
  Did indeed climb aboard,
  Swung his leg, caught a foot in the spokes!
  Tried to scoot off and nigh on fell off
  When over his ankle he rode!
  Cursing in pain he pedalled away
  With a scream in the gutter he fell.
  It threw me! The Bitch!
  It steers to the ditch!
  It's not natural and I don't feel so well!
  Our trike just smiled
  Had enough? I think so; well, so long
  It was nice meeting you.
  And whilst you lie in the dirt
  With torn knees and ribbed shirt,
  Apologise and your words will you chew?
  And realise to your cost
  That three wheels is a lot!
  There, there, there; will *elastoplast do?!

  [by Stu 'E' Lee]
						   *bandaid


- Richard

ps The approved term for the practice of trike-riding is "trundling"
1050.9my trikeDOOZER::PENNEYRichard Penney 830 4114 @RKA 1/19Tue Jan 08 1991 17:5351
1050.10Recumbent TrikesULTRA::WITTENBERGUphill, Into the WindTue Jan 08 1991 19:4411
    Both recumbent  tricycles  that I know of are made in England. The
    old  standard  was  the  "Windcheetah  SL" by Mike Burrows. It was
    quite complex, and supposed to be very fast. It was often equipped
    with  a  full fairing. A somewhat simpler, much cheaper version is
    now  made by Peter Ross. It's called the Trice and weighs about 35
    lbs.

    Both of these drive the rear wheel and have two front wheels which
    steer.

--David
1050.11RUTILE::MACFADYENCentral European TimeWed Jan 09 1991 07:0212
    Re .8 and .9:
    
    Interesting write-up. I must admit that although I was aware of
    lightweight trikes, and heard people talking about them, I've never
    actually seen one. If I was still in the Reading area I'd certainly
    take up your offer of a test ride.
    
    The times you quoted for 1990 rides were extremely fast, btw, and mst
    have been straight-through rides with the benefit of following winds.
    
    
    Rod
1050.12DOOZER::PENNEYRichard Penney 830 4114 @RKA 1/19Wed Jan 09 1991 08:5712
Re .10,  I was aware of the Trice being made in Britain - they advertise 
regularly in the magazines here - but am surprised that no trike recumbents 
are made in the US, if this is the case.

Re .11, 

>    The times you quoted for 1990 rides were extremely fast, btw, and mst
>    have been straight-through rides with the benefit of following winds.

Yes - that's my understanding.

- Richard
1050.13How wide?NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurWed Jan 09 1991 10:2410
    There were several of them in PBP.  They get an early (15-20 minutes)
    start on the pack probably to reduce the likelihood of crashes (Picture
    a pack of 2000 making sudden maneuvers around a trike).
    
    Richard, you didn't give overall dimensions of a trike, how wide are
    they?  My recollection was 20 to 24" but I didn't stop to take any
    measurements.  Are the custom trikes generally the same length as
    bikes?
    
    ed
1050.14recumbents are 30-36" wideULTRA::WITTENBERGUphill, Into the WindWed Jan 09 1991 13:076
    The Trice  comes in two widths, 36" for normal use and 30" for use
    on  the  Dutch  bike  paths where there is a maximum width. That's
    pretty  close  to the minimum possible width for a recumbent trike
    with two front wheels as the wheels have to go outside the rider.

--David
1050.15Mine's this bigDOOZER::PENNEYRichard Penney 830 4114 @RKA 1/19Wed Jan 09 1991 13:3111
1050.16Ah those were the days...IDEFIX::HEMMINGSLanterne RougeThu Jan 10 1991 07:0017
	Just before I left for France I had to sell my beloved Holdsworth trike.
It was about 1948, an all-welded 23" frame originally built for 26" wheels.  It
also had the original squared drives to the hubs and real bearings (6 of them)
in the rear axle.
	I got a braze-on Mafac for the forks and fixed a second to comply with
the law, and then managed to adapt an unfinished pair of Rogers axles to use his
"new" style hubs with the hexagon drive.  I then rebuilt all the wheels into
sprints and raced it for a few years (not with a great deal of success).
	I would have loved to bring it over here to keep to the image of the
eccentric Englishman but the thought of (a) narrow roads (b) steep hills and (c)
badly cambered roads with the one-wheel drive on the wrong side finally put me
off and I sold it to a clubmate.

	Nevertheless I do still have a Paris tandem about 1946 which I hope to
use, but I am currently looking at getting at least a hub brake for the rear.  I
spoke to a couple from Nice last week who recommended Maxi-car for both power and
quality.  Just a few Valiums for the engine department and we shall be OK......
1050.17Got any more on that Holdsworth?DOOZER::PENNEYRichard Penney 830 4114 @RKA 1/19Fri Jan 11 1991 10:4215
    Glad I'm not the only barrow-boy in this conference!
    
    Re Rogers axle, my impression is that their hexagon design is exactly
    the same as Higgins, so not exactly 'new'. Certainly their new hubs
    would appear to fit my original Higgins axles, and their new axles look
    much the same as my originals, apart from being better finished -
    Rogers buy in ground steel bar and start from that. 
    
    I've never seen a Holdsworth trike (as opposed to conversion kit), but
    wuld very much like to. I'd heard that on a Holdsworth there is just
    one tube running rearwards from the b/b to the axle, unlike Higgins and
    others which have two, much like normal chainstays. What did yours
    have?
    
    Richard 
1050.18Holdsworth trikesIDEFIX::HEMMINGSLanterne RougeFri Jan 11 1991 11:0924
	Quite so, but the Holdsworth I had was built with two tubes from the BB
but close together, curving out at their ends to be welded to the axle housing.
It did seem to be quite stiff, but it also had an eccentric bracket with plenty
of meat to weld to.
	I didn't mean the Rogers axles were new, they are as you say, copies of
the original Higgins with the very crafty use of BB cups for bearings.  I was
told by the man himself that they use "aircraft quality" steel but that may be
a sales plug.  The ones I had were unfinished, not having the fixings for the
inner cups but were the right diameter to go through the S5's.  The whole
assembly was held in axial tension with Locktite on the nuts to avoid the
necessity of over-tightening.  Crude, but when dealing with other nonstandard
engineering features like one-wheel drive and both brakes on the front wheel -
why worry??
	There used to be a shop in Laindon, Essex - just down from the Ford
R&D Centre who specialised in odd things like tandems, tandem trikes and trikes.
They had a lot of things like disc brakes as well as oversize spokes (with
standard diameter nipples so you could use solo rims), and heavy duty tandem
bits.  I think it was Swallow's - I didn't like it much as a shop (not as good
as Buck's at Ipswich) but they did have some useful things.
	I miss the trike out here in France....
	I don't miss the rain, the frost, the cold, the idiot motorists....
	I love the sunshine, the warmth, the number of bikies out every weekend,
the relatively considerate motorists, the cyclosportif events, the scenery, the
vino, the food, jumping in the pool after going out training..........