Conference noted::bicycle

    On my Shimano's, when they start shifting late, it's because the
    cable has stretched, so I take up the slack by turning that barrel
    counterclockwise 1/4 turn which has the effect of making the cable
    housing longer and therefore takes up the slack that the cable
    has acquired.  As I've said before I just hate getting of the bike
    after 200 mile sto do that. but not enough to go friction.
    
    I think overshifting is also caused by too slack a cable and so
    should have the same solution but I don't have a Superbe Pro
    derailleur, so I don't know for sure.
    
    ed

    I'm setting up a bike with Suntour Accushift indexed equipment. I feel
    confident working on friction mode equipment, but have no experience with
    the new indexed stuff.  I've looked in my bicycle maintenance books,
    but none of them seem to cover indexed equipment.
    
    (1)  Can an end-user set up this system without special tools?
    
    (2)  If so, could someone explain how to do it?
    
    (3)  Are there any good books which explain the process?
    
    /Larry

    Setting up an index system is no big deal, and goes very roughly like
    this:
    
    1. Use the set screws on the derailleur to set the limit of travel, ie
    from level with the smallest sprocket to level with the biggest.
    
    2. With the derailleur on the smallest sprocket and the shift lever
    fully forward, pull the cable tight and clamp it.
    
    3. You'll probably need to tighten up the cable a little more with the
    adjuster on the derailleur. You're aiming for a cable tension that when
    you shift, moves the derailleur up or down the block with equal
    promptness.
    
    4. And that's about it, except that there may be a set screw on the
    derailleur, bearing against the frame, that adjusts the angle of the
    derailleur as seen from the side - this allows you to set the upper
    pulley wheel so that it travels as close to the block as possible
    without rubbing and without complaining when you backpedal.
    
    
    There's no special thing to do make indexing "work", you just have to
    keep the cable tension adjusted so that when the shift lever thinks
    you're in gear, you are in gear.
    
    
    Rod

    	I'm converting the Avatar to Hyperglide/SIS. One thing I didn't
    realize is that SIS is so sensitive to cable length changes that
    Shimano gives you a different cable with the shifter kit [evidently
    standard cable housings compress enough to throw off the indexing.]
    	Both the chain and the shifters come with instructions on how to
    work with these different-than-normal items. (Like, you may need a
    different chain tool, one with ridges near the opening.)
    	They advise that you go with the complete 'set' of components to
    make the system work best - for me they were:
    	Chains (I need 2)
    	Rear Hub/freewheel
    	Rear deraillure
    	Shifters
    The biggest rear cog available now is 30. 34 will be available later
    this year (it has been announced, but is 'vaporware' right now).
    Not cheap, but my 10-year old components were starting to get a bit
    worn...  - Chris

    Also, see note 392.*
    

    re: the past several notes
    
    Many thanks for the info on adjusting indexed systems.
    
    I've tried  as was suggested, but still can't get it just right.
    All tension settings from -infinity to + infinity have been tried in
    1/4 turn increments of the adjusting barrel without success.  Since
    this is a new bike, I've also adjusted chain length to the classic
    proper length, and also varied that by +/- 2 links.  When it shifts
    properly in the higher gears, it overshifts in the lower gears.  If I
    get it so it almost works right while moving from small diameter gears
    to  large ones, then going back down in the opposite direction is a
    disaster.  The cable has been lubed, and does not appear to hang-up
    anywhere.  It is an indexed compatible cable.  A check of chain line
    via eyeballing appears to be fine.  The rear derailleur works smoothly,
    and is rated for the range of gears I'm trying to shift between.
    
    I've exhausted my technical abilities---its time to bring it to a shop.
    
    /Larry

    Sounds to me like there's some basic incompatibility in the system.
    The minimum requirement is that the shift levers, derailleur and
    freewheel are designed to work togther: are you sure yours are? Maybe
    if you listed exactly what each component was it would help.
    
    
    Rod

    re: -.1
    
    The components are:
    
    Suntour Accushift bar-end shifters (7 speed)
    Suntour XC-Comp rear derailleur
    Suntour chain
    Suntour XC-Comp cassette rear hub (130 mm spacing)
    Suntour Accushift cassette rear cog (13-30, 7 speed)
    Suntour Accushift cables
    
    I didn't hand pick the parts; they came from the frame builder as a
    package.
    
    /Larry

    When I had my componentry moved to a new frame after the old one broke,
    the indexing also didn't work properly.  The bike shop played with it
    for hours, and solved the problem by putting a spacer (washer) between
    the rear derailleur (sp) and the hanger....  It's worked fine ever
    since.

    The components are:
    
    Suntour Accushift bar-end shifters (7 speed)
    Suntour XC-Comp rear derailleur
    Suntour chain
    Suntour XC-Comp cassette rear hub (130 mm spacing)
    Suntour Accushift cassette rear cog (13-30, 7 speed)
    Suntour Accushift cables


Try Shimano 8^)

    Got the Avatar (see .4) on the road last night for the first time since
    the conversion. The new driveline is heaven! No more unintentional
    double shifts, no more tiny adjustments trying to get it to not rub one
    way and not try to shift the other, less noise, etc.  And being able to
    confidently down shift without easing off on a hill is Great!
    	Only problem: the engine is really down on power...:-(    - Chris

    re: past notes
    
    I've pretty much solved the problem.  In my efforts to get the bike
    ready to bring to a shop, I installed the Bruce Gordon QS2s (little
    ferrules so you can quickly break the derailleur cable lines to
    facilitate switching handlebars on a hybrid) which the final set-up was
    going to have.  The QS2s require the use of a second set of cables. 
    After installing the second set of cables, I tried adjusting the rear
    derailleur for the fun of it, and it seemed to snap in just fine
    (although the adjustment is very touchy- moving the barrel just 1/8 of
    a turn will throw the whole thing out).  Maybe the original cable had
    some subtle problem or wasn't set up quite right.
    
    I was so ecstatic that I immediately went out for a ride before it got
    too dark (and it gave me an opportunity to field test my work). 
    Everything worked as expected, except the rear derailleur would try to
    shift itself in situations where I was standing on the pedals, and
    pushing real hard.  I assume this is probably a symptom of a chain
    which is too long.  Can someone confirm this?  Based on the method
    outlined below, it seems like the chain could be shortened by 2 links,
    and still sit within spec.
    
    On the subject of chain length, I received a mail message from a fellow
    noter which I'll excerpt below (it contains useful information which
    can help others).
    
    Abstract of a message sent to me by John (WLDWST::) Pollard
    
    The 1st problem is that the "classic" chain length as you call it doesn't
    work with this indexing stuff. there is a dot on the jockey wheel
    hanger thingummy that should be in between two lines of the derailleur
    body when you are on the large front ring and one up from the smallest
    on the rear cluster - 52 x14 for me.  I had two other problems - a
    subtle derailleur hanger alignment problem, and the big surprise. The
    Superbe hubset came brand new with incorrect spacing between the body
    of the hub and the screw things on the axle that touch the dropouts. 
    It needed a spacer.  The derailleur thought that the freewheel was in a
    different place than it really was.   

    In summary,

    1.) first try the chain length.

    2.) The rest of it is pretty much a bike shop thing unless you're
    REALLY good.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    re: previous note suggesting a switch to Shimano components
    
    (please excuse my flaming and editorializing)
    
    I know this was said in jest, however I believe that Shimano's approach
    to design is too similar to the fashion design worlds of Milan and
    Paris for my comfort.  Obsolete your designs (fashions) on a yearly
    basis so customers will have to buy more.  Look at the past five years:
    Indexed shifters & derailleurs (6-7-8 speed: usually little backward
    compatibility), cassette-based hubs, hyperglide (not available on
    thread-on hubs), superglide (new chain rings), 126-130-135 mm rear hub
    spacing (probably can't get some of the new wiz-bang stuff if you have
    an older bike with narrower spacing- must buy a new bike to take
    advantage of these options), specialized chains, quick release hubs on
    mt bikes, roller cam brakes (chain stay mounted-a classic bike
    fashion), push button shifters with no friction mode option (I predict
    these will go the way of chain stay mounted roller cam brakes),...  
    
    Improvements must happen, but its an insult to consumers and bike shops
    to change basic design centers so quickly for relatively minor advances
    without a greater effort towards backwards compatibility.  Take our own
    industry as an example; any computer company which treated customers as
    Shimano does wouldn't last long in the marketplace.  If industry
    standards have come to computing, why can't that happen with something
    as simple as a bicycle.  Suntour is far from perfect, however there is
    some chance that next years equipment will be compatible with this
    years.
              

I agree with you 100% about Shimano's lack of backward compatibility.  I bugs me 
to no end that I can't put Hyperglide cogs on my perfectly good, and almost new, 
Ultegra cassette hubs.  But Shimano's products work SOOO WELL that I'm just not 
happy with anything else.

I just spent over 2k on a Santana tandem that came with Suntour Accushift 
shifters and mountain rear derailleur.  The thing doesn't shift worth a damn, 
and I can't seem to get it adjusted properly.  In any 1 position of the levers I
can be in 2 different gears, so I get lots of delayed, unintended shifts, lots
of playing with the lever, etc.  Sometimes this "automatic transmission" shifts 
at a convenient time, but mostly it doesn't.  I've never had these problems in
the 15k+ miles I've put on Ultegra SIS components in the last 2 years!

Until someone can match Shimano's dependability, I'm sure I'll keep buying their 
products, which is just what they intended.

Kevin

ps.  BTW, one of the problems in the computer industry is that the hardware is
changing so fast that customers don't know what to buy, and some keep waiting 
since they KNOW something better will be released in a couple of days. 

>    Everything worked as expected, except the rear derailleur would try to
>    shift itself in situations where I was standing on the pedals, and
>    pushing real hard.  I assume this is probably a symptom of a chain
>    which is too long.  

	This could be due to frame flex.  If this setup is so sensitive that
	1/8 turn of the adjuster makes a big difference, it's not going to
	take too much flex to screw it up.  

	I've never ridden Suntour, so I can't really make a comparison, but
	I agree with Kevin that Shimano SIS is REAL good.  It's simple to
	adjust, the adjustment isn't all that critical, and you almost 
	never have to readjust it (like maybe every 2000 miles).

	chris

    I'm sorry to hear that a pure Suntour set-up gives problems, both for
    the owner and myself since I was considering trying Suntour. In the
    case of the setup discussed in this note, it can hardly help that
    bar-end shifters are being used because of the longer cable length
    giving more friction and play in the system.
    
    It's amazing the effect that simple things like cables can have. When I
    reassembled my "racing" bike (it would be if I did any) a couple of
    months ago, I couldn't find the proper gear inner wire initially and
    just used an old one that was lying around. On a six-speed Shimano 105
    system, shifts just weren't as snappy and precise as I remembered from
    last summer, so after a while, I found the correct inner cable and
    tried that. There was a marked improvement.
    
    As for Shimano's policies towards its customers, I share the disquiet.
    Some of the stuff they've come up with in the last few years is
    genuinely useful: I'm thinking specifically of six-speed indexed
    shifiting with cassette hubs. If they could just settle down and supply
    that stuff for a while, or license someone else to do it, then you
    could use it happily for years. Instead of which they've moved onto
    seven-speed Hyperglide, the spockets for which come in matched sets (as
    I understand it) and so begin to move away from the complete
    flexibility in gear selection promised by cassette systems generally.
    But of course it all *works* so well, at least when it's new...
    
    
    Rod
       

    re: .14
    
    > This could be due to frame flex.
    
    If I take the system out of indexed mode, it does not jump gears while
    standing on the pedals.  It doesn't even make any sounds like its
    trying to shift gears.  Would this eliminate frame flex from this list
    of possible problems?  Also, last night I shortened the chain by two
    links to get it in spec as described in previous notes, and it made no
    difference.
    
    Despite the problems, I'm still getting much enjoyment out of the bike. 
    Last night I took this hybrid out for an off-road ride with a friend
    who had a mt bike, and found it handled wonderfully.
    

<Suntour_Bash_Alarm>    

I have had the Suntour 4050 21 speed system on my Panasonic MC4500 for 
a year (550 miles).  (I realize that's hardly a year's riding for most of you
folks).  During this year, I have sunken the derailleur under water and mud, 
run sticks and logs through the jockey wheels, and generally abused the chain 
with mud, etc.  I have also bashed the derailleur against rocks and trees in
various mtn. bike manuvers.  I don't spare the whip when out in the woods!

I have only adjusted the cable once (1/4 turn on the barrel adjuster) and
that's it!  The click-action is still very tight (after _many_ shifts)  There
is no `automatic' shifting or other problems.  It still works like the day
I bought it.  I, for one, am very impressed with the action and quality of 
these Suntour components.  (These are not the best available, either.)
The Suntour chain is just about history, but I expected that.

Because these components came with the bike, this may not be a perfect 
comparison to the saga of the upgraded bikes in this note, but my experience 
has all been great.



Steve

    RE: Last few notes on Suntour derailleurs
    
    My Centurion MtB came with Suntour derailleurs & cogs. Everything
    has been absolutely faultless from the start. I'm actually quite
    impressed -- mind you, my previous bike was a Peugeot w/ Simplex
    gear, and that seems now *awful* in comparison -- perhaps you have
    some installation problem...
    
    /Ben

    I brought it to a bike shop, and they did some checking.  The hanger
    was out of alignment a hair, and was fixed (not enough to make a
    difference they said), and the chain length and derailleur angle were
    adjusted precisely to spec.  The result- it doesn't automatic shift as
    often, but given enough pedal pressure, I can still make it happen.
    
    I'm at a loss, the bike shop is at a loss, and the frame builder is
    also mystified.  I now have the technical support number for Suntour,
    and will give that a try.
    
    /Larry