Conference noted::bicycle

>These would be for Time Trials, Tri's, Bi's and maybe a Crit. I

    That's a pretty diverse set of needs; however it seems that your
    emphasis is on the side of reduced wind resistance, rather than
    absolute strength (you only say "maybe" a Crit).  In your case,
    I'd put together some TT wheels, and use the training wheels for
    the Crits.  I don't think you really want to mess with tubulars
    yet; I use them exclusively, but I don't recommend them to most
    others for cost and convenience reasons.  (For most people, it 
    just isn't worth it.)
    
    Why do I use tubulars?  I think (expensive) tubulars are better, in
    about the same way as silk boxer shorts are better -- they don't offer
    any noticeable performance edge, but they sure feel nice. There's also
    a "religious" aspect -- they're part of the culture of cycling. If
    feeling nice is worth that much money and the time and effort of
    dealing with glue, mending, and the like, then by all means....  But
    not many people are crazy like me, just as not many people are prepared
    to lay out $30 for a pair of underwear and then spend $2 every time
    they need drycleaning.  
    
    There are also little advantages -- faster tire changes on the road,
    for example.  But these don't make or break the purchase unless
    you're a road racer.

    MATT
    
    PS-- The analogy only goes so far. No, I don't have twenty pairs
         of silk underwear....

    I had the some racing wheels built at the beginning of the season;
    they were: Araya ADX-4 aero rims, Superbe Pro hubs, Hoshi bladed
    spokes, 32 spokes front & rear, radial front, radial one side on
    rear & 2 cross other side.
    
    I also use 150g Panaracer Ultima tires (18mm) on these wheels (rims
    are 18.7mm).
    
    I used the wheels for racing only, TTs, Triathlons, Road races,
    and one Criterium. Here's my impressions (hindsight is 20-20 !):
    
    I had a problem with the Hoshi bladed spokes breaking on the radial
    side of the rear wheel. I hear this is a common problem with Hoshi;
    when they break, they always break at the bend near the hub. I believe
    you can stop the breaking spokes by filing the spoke end where it
    hits the hub - good advice if you are building them, but impossible
    if they are already built.
    
    I felt the aero rims & 32 spokes provided all the strength I needed;
    I biked over some NASTY roads & never had a problem with the wheels
    coming out of true. I weigh 165 lbs. I'm definitely in favor of
    aero rims for all types of racing.
    
    The 150g tubular tires were the lightest I could find, and also
    very narrow - a perfect match for the narrow rims. They do wear
    out fast though; I went thru 5 tires this season ($32/ea), and remember
    I only used them once per weekend!
    
    The BEST thing I have to say about the wheels is the light weight
    was fantastic!! I feel SO fast when I'm on these wheels since I
    always train on my heavier clinchers.
    
    I believe the lower rolling resistance (light narrow tires pumped
    up to 130 PSI) and aerodynamics also added to the fast feel.
    
    I retrospect I would not have gone radial on one side of the rear
    wheel - I would have done 2 cross both sides. I also would consider
    different bladed spokes, though Hoshi requires no slotting of hubs.
    
    I really think it's the best $300 I've spent on my bike.
    
    Go for it.
    Mark
    
    

    
    Unless you are willing to spend big bucks like .2, then I'd pass.
    I don't think the average entry level non-licensed guy can really
    tell the difference.  I had my bike built up with tubulars wheels
    that could be called "light trainers".  They're a waste of money.
    I'll probably replace them with real wheels this year.
    
    Aero rims can be very strong, don't be afraid of that.  My brother
    in law rides Rovals 18-front 24-back, and he's 6'5" 210.  He's got
    3 triathlon seasons (and alot of training) on them.  One rim cracked
    at the seam, but the wheel did not fail.  He lives in Florida, so
    he doesn't have potholes and climbing to deal with as much as us
    northerners.

    The bottom line is cash.  If you're the type of guy that is going
    to freak when his $30-45 tires flats, then pass on it.  If you're
    going to "skimp" on wheels and tires, you might as well go with
    clinchers, and get more for you money.
    
    JD

    There are some great notes written in the conference about this
    subject (do a DIR/TITLE="WHEELS" OR "TUBULARS",ETC.).  Note 51,in
    particular, goes into detail on TT wheels.
    
    If you want some good humor/advice (about the tubular experience)
    check out note 170.  Matt Johnson's notes are always good for a laugh, 
    but that one is really funny!
    
    As I was reading some older notes in here I noticed they were full
    of good stuff. If you ever need advice, first do a DIR/TITLE=. 
    The answer may already be there.
    
    Dave

    I also plan on getting a new set of tubular wheels.  Racing (80%
    of use) and training (TT's) is the reason.  I plan to build them this 
    winter with a friend who's done this many times.
    
    I'm looking for recommendations on brand names and set up.  I've
    only ridden clinchers to this point, so it's all new.  At 160 lbs.
    I'm sure I can use 32 hole rims with double butted spokes.  Is it
    worthwhile to get aero rims (Matrix Iso's?) for a mostly road racing
    and crit wheel (TT's only when necessary!)?  How light can I go
    on rim weight(and how many spokes)? 
    
    Any impressions on Mavic versus Campy or Wolber?  I want something
    lightweight, but doesn't need to be trued constantly.
    
    Finally, does anyone in the area (eastern Mass.) have any old or
    unneeded tubular rims I could have (or buy) for aging and
    prestretching new tubulars?
    
    After the Hell I went through with my Nashbar high performance clincher
    wheel set, I opted to return them and go tubular instead.  I'll
    train on clinchers but race on the tubs.   
                                      
    Dave

    RE: .3
    
    Last summer when I put tubulars on my bike there was quite a difference.
    I got a pair of built wheels from Bike Trashbar. This I would not
    reccomend for anyone who does not have experience building wheels.
    After the first mile I rode them they looked like pringles.      
    After having the local bike shop straighten them out for me they
    have been great. I replaced the cheap Panaracer 280 tires that came
    with the wheel set to Wolber SP1 Pros. What a difference a tire
    can make. 
    
    I now have a new set of wheels That I'll save for racing. These 
    are Campy C-record hubs, Super Champion rims and Wolber Neo Pro 
    tires. They are lighter and roll better than the Shimano 600 araya 
    combo on the trashbar wheels. 
    
    I am sold on Tubulars and use them for training, TT's, and Tris 
    However, it makes me sick to think about replacing the SP1 Pro($40)
    on the front because of a slow leak or unsewing, patching, resewing
    and remounting the tire.
    
    Paul

    Wolber PRO SP1's are about $27 in the Nashbar catalogue.  I used
    to ride with them but I had several flats and have been told by
    a few different sources that they are lousy tires.  They feel good
    but I question their durability.  Maybe I've just had bad luck.
    
    As to repairing tubulars, it's not as bad as it first appears. 
    I tried to patch one and it came out much fatter around the patch.
    After several flats (i.e. $200 worth) this summer I decided to give 
    it another try.  It now takes me about 45 min. to patch a tubular, but 
    I think I've mastered it.
    
    By the way, I switched to clinchers for training.  For me and my
    wallet, it's much more practical for training and commuting to work.
    
    Phil

    I have a pair of tubular wheels that have about 5 miles on them.
    They are Mavic CL 330 heat treated rims, Suntour sprint Sealed hubs,
    DT spokes, I can't remember if they are 15ga spokes with 14ga on
    the freewheel side.  I'll sell the pair with 2 UST tubular tires,
    and the NW freewheel for $100.
    
    Dave

I've had tubulars on my bikes since I first rode a pair on a friend's 
Raleigh International back along about '77 or so.  Except for a used 
pair of Fiamme Red Labels on Campy Nuovo Tipos that I stole from a
friend for $30 to put on my commuting bike, I've never bought a pair of
wheels and never will - building my own is what works for me.  On my 
good bike I currently have 36-hole Super Champ Championnat du Monde rims
with DT double butted spokes on Avocet Mod II sealed hubs.  For newer
cyclists, this rig is old stuff - I built these wheels in '80, and I
finally got around to retruing them late this summer. 

For tires I went through a phase using Wolber 270s - then I found 
National (once labeled Cycle Pro, presently called Panaracer) at
Crashbar, and I've been using their nylon 230s ever since.  They're not
as nice as Continental silks, or even Vittoria cotton, but they're only
$27 a shot, and they are a great deal better than any clincher I ever 
rode.  I weigh only 141-144 pounds, depending on what I ate yesterday,
and I can get away with using light tires like this for daytripping (I'm
not a racer).  Most men shouldn't try it.  On my commuting bike I have 
Swallow 300s.  These tires are pretty lousy, but they're also only $11 
each - and they're still better than most clinchers.

I can't imagine the circumstances that could convince me to go back to 
clinchers.  After having said which, I don't encourage anyone to switch 
to tubs.  You make the choice, you get the hassle.  Tubulars *are* a 
pain - as others have said, gluing and fixing are trouble in spades.  
But it's worth it to me.  I can't stress enough, though, that if you do 
take the plunge, you should learn to patch your own tires.  Pitching a 
$27 tire for one small puncture is more than I can bring myself to do.

- Dick

    
    	The other replies on this note are much more informed than the
    	rather small amount of advice that I can offer, but...
    
    	I've been riding tubulars since 1978 (I graduated high school
    	in 1979), and I've been using these little devices known as-
    	tire savers.
    
    	I've ridden in RAGBRAI four times, (only one crash in all), and
    	this year alone I'm heading towards the 3,000 mile mark. As far
    	as I can remember, I've had approximately 8 flats, which means
    	less than one flat/year. I always carry a spare tire, and some
    	glue (wrapped in a baggie) with me, so the few times that I
    	couldn't even have prayed for a ride into the next town, have
    	not fazed me one bit. The only time I got worried was when the
    	spare was mounted, and I realized that a second flat in one day
    	would have allowed me to walk the 20 miles into the next town.
    	(I hate having to ride the sag wagons!)
    
    	My point is, I just like to ride the bike, all over the place,
    	and in ten years, (using tire-savers) I've had less than ten
    	flats. Campagnolo Record road hubs, and Fiamme Red labels are
    	what I'm using, but I don't think that really matters much.
    	(Yeah, I'm riding museum-like wheels).
    	What does matter is where you ride, how you ride, how much
    	you weigh, (over 250 lbs.?), and the state of your head. I
    	just want to get out and pedal, I don't race, and using the
    	tubulars hasn't given me any problems. BUT, I wouldn't suggest
    	loading the wheels down with panniers, water bottles & handle-
    	bar packs!
    
    	OH! I'm sorry, yeah the ride is MUCH better than 27 x 1-1/4's!!
    
    
    								Face.

Re: .10

> I've been riding tubulars since 1978 (I graduated high school in
> 1979), and I've been using these little devices known as tire savers.

I've been riding tubulars that long - see .9 - and haven't used tire 
savers.  I rode a bike that had them once.  I repeat, ONCE.  They were 
noisy, with their little HUMMMMM against the tire surface.  I then 
talked to the guy at whose shop I was doing business - he was a former 
race, from italy - and he said don't bother, they don't do much good, 
and they aren't worth the annoyance. 

I'm also under the one-flat-per-year average.  What I do is instinctive
now, but I flatted four or five times very early on until I learned to
watch for glass on the road ahead.  When I sense that I might have hit
something ugly, I reach down and use the palm of my glove to wipe the
tire surface.  (Do this in front of the fork on the front, and between
the seatstays and the chainstays on the rear.)  Using 230-gram tires, I
have not had a flat since '82, unless I count the 8-year-old valve stem
that just last month gave up overnight and was flat in the morning. 
(Usually I don't leave my tires inflated overnight - this one must have
decided to teach me a lesson!) 

I also carry a spare.  In fact, I carry two on road rides - only one 
when I'm commuting.  But I don't carry glue.  It's a waste of time on a 
roadside repair, given that it takes 15 minutes to get tacky, and it can
be very dangerous.  It takes hours to set completely.  If you take a
corner a little hard on unset glue, the glue can act as a lubricant and
slip-slide, actually helping the tire to roll off the rim.  Better to
rely on the stickiness of the previous layer of glue, and glue the fresh
tire on after you get home.  Trust me - I've never had a replacement 
tire roll off unglued.

- Dick

    
    	That's interesting, learn something every day, as they say...
    
    	One question comes to mind, what about the environment in which
    	the spare is mounted? Such as, I ride year round, and have had
    	to install spares in all temperatures, from almost near zero,
    	fahrenheit, (February in Maynard) to almost 100 degrees (in -
    	late July out in the boonies of Iowa). The cold mount was several
    	years ago, but I don't seem to remember the tackiness that is
    	usually associated with rim cement. In fact my fingers were
    	almost dead numb, and the old glue still on the rim was as good
    	as ice. Also, I guess since I don't race, I've always taken
    	advantage of the flat tire. By just goofing off and taking my
    	time, I seem to be able to give the cement at least a half-hour
    	before even standing the bike back up.
    
    	    But I do remember mounting the spare in Iowa, and the glue
    	was almost soupy. So much so that no glue was needed for the
    	spare. I was even worried about the tire rolling off the rim,
    	even without using more glue!
    
    	    I've read several sources about using one's riding gloves
    	for cleaning tires en route, and the only problem I've found
    	is, that I don't always wear gloves! In fact I don't always
    	wear riding shorts either! I rode across Iowa in 1986 wearing
    	cut-off jean shorts, and alot of people told me I was crazy!
    	But I guess I'm just a little weird, which is why I like to
    	use tire-savers, even with the slight whining sound created
    	by the metal to tire contact. I guess I'm just too spacy on
    	the bike, and can't always watch the road for that inevitable
    	pile of glass that WILL torture my Wolber's without mercy.
    
    	    But I did say that I couldn't offer the same level of
    	knowledge and/or data that the other respondees to this note
    	can offer! I'm just another idiot having a good time, using
    	whatever means I can to get some excercise, and some fresh air!
    
    	    And I do like those tubulars, they DO roll so much nicer!
        

>    	    I've read several sources about using one's riding gloves
>    	for cleaning tires en route, and the only problem I've found
>    	is, that I don't always wear gloves! In fact I don't always

That's easy, use your fingers! (You always have THEM with ya, I hope!).
I prefer fingers even when I'm wearing gloves - then it's real easy to 
tell when the offending piece of whatever is gone; often it may take a 
couple of revs of the wheel to be brushed off. This helps on both 
tubular and clincher wheels, BTW.

                                  ken

  RE: .-1  

> That's easy, always use your fingers!

  That's my method.  Of course, last summer I got a nice (minor)
  glass-cut on my index-finger that way... but the tire was spared
  a flat.  I'd always suspected that this method might someday
  give you a finger-cut... sure enough.

  -john

    
    	RE .13
    
    	    You guys are great! Geez, here I am riding around in jean
    	shorts, with no gloves on, and not even able to think about
    	using my fingers! Boy what a dummy I am! I guess I'm not that
    	weird though, since I was too afraid to slice my fingers off!
    	Or even worse, wipe out while reaching down for the tire!
            
    	(I wiped out in Iowa this year on RAGBRAI. I was only 13 miles
    	 outside of Carroll, IA, and was blown down by a pace-line that
    	 made no attempt to announce themselves, while I was of course
    	 getting a natural high on all the scenery)
    
    	    One question, I've read that an individual should wrap
    	their thumb around the seat-stay for bracing purposes while
    	gently lowering their palm to the tire. Do you use any sort
    	of bracing for cleaning the front tire? (Since I'm a scenery
    	buff, and a space cadet on the bike, I'll stick with the old
    	tire-savers) Is this an obvious no-no while riding in a pace-
    	line? (For you race officianados) Any other instances when
    	logical caution should requisite preparatory actions prior
    	to the ol' reach-n-scrape?
    
    	    This is rather interesting discussion, I thought I was
    	the only nut on wheels! (Tubulars, as usual)
    
    							Face.
    						Now you know why they
    			   			call me face, it's all
    						scraped up!

>    	    One question, I've read that an individual should wrap
>    	their thumb around the seat-stay for bracing purposes while
>    	gently lowering their palm to the tire. Do you use any sort
>    	of bracing for cleaning the front tire? (Since I'm a scenery

I guess when i do a back tire, i sorta start by snaking my hand behind
the seat stay with the back of my hand touching the stay for a
reference, then slowly (relatively) slide down til the fingers touch the
tyre. Palms? Not for me, they're much more sensitive than my fingertips.
On the front, just lower the fingers gently onto the tire. I can
maintain pretty much the same cadence whilst cleaning either tire, and
watching the road, altho I sure wouldn't recommend doing it in a real
tight pack until you've practiced it a LOT!!!!! In my racing days I
never had to ride with a pack much, since I was often off the back
(common) or off the front (after a false start :-) ). 
                                                       ken

    I ended up getting a used tubular wheel set. Dura Ace Cassette hub
    32 hole  with Freewheel, Mavic Aero rims and DT spokes, radial front
    with two cross on back. They were used only five times and showed
    no signs of wear on the anodization or grit on the hubs. They looked
    like he never even used them five times. So I bought them for $150
    and he sold me two new tires for $25 a piece and glued them on.
    This was just what I was going to get, only with a cheaper hub set. I
    couldn't afford Dura Ace. I think I lucked out.
    
    	I pumped them up to 125 psi and took them for a ride yesterday.
    WOW!!! What a difference, I thought I was riding an aluminum frame.  
    Alot of road shock is gone, they are faster and lighter. I'll still
    use my clicher set for bombing back and forth to work, but I'm hooked.
                                                  
    	Yes, they are worth it.
            
    Tom
    P.S. Is there anyone in the MRO area that wants to show me how to
    	change a tubular? I might need to know:-) I'll do the work,
    	I'd just like someone there to give me a couple of hints as
   	I do it.  

Re. 17

>  P.S. Is there anyone in the MRO area that wants to show me how to
>    	change a tubular? I might need to know:-) I'll do the work,
>    	I'd just like someone there to give me a couple of hints as
>   	I do it.  

Changing tubs is easy.  Take the tire from your hand and change it to
your bike shop mechanic's.  :-)

Actually, it *is* reasonably easy.  Assuming a tire-less wheel and a 
fresh tire, do this:

			*** CAUTION ***

    Do not mount tubular tires in a room with a rug on the floor.  Do
    it in the kitchen, the garage, or the workshop.

1.  Apply a thin coat of glue to the rim, and another to the tire.  The
    standard tube of glue is good for two wheels, so judge amounts
    accordingly.  Applying the glue to a wheel is easiest if you put
    the wheel in a truing stand.  Applying it to a tire is easiest if
    you turn the tire inside out and hang it from one hand while you
    apply the glue with the other.  Pause every few inches (on both
    surfaces) to spread the glue out with a finger.

2.  Hang the tire over a chair back, and let things sit 15 minutes.  The
    glue will get *very* tacky. 

3.  With the tire still inside out, drape it from your hand.  Make it be
    a figure-8, and catch the bottom with your knee.  Slide the top onto
    your shoulder, and give the tire a *good* stretch.  If you don't do 
    this, you'll never get it on the wheel.

    As an aside note, you should track down a couple of old rims for use
    as tire stretchers.  Buy tires ahead, and keep some mounted on the
    stretchers - without glue!

4.  Turn the tire right side out and start mounting at the valve stem. 
    Place the tire on the rim as evenly as you can, moving toward the
    opposite side.  When you get to the far side, roll the tire slightly
    inside-out again, clamp the mounted parts as firmly as you can with
    your knees, and lever the rest up over the edge of the rim, pushing 
    with your thumbs.  This is *not* easy - the best possible tool to
    use is a friend who can clamp while you lever.  

    I guarantee that the tire will slip free the first time you do this.
    Start back where it slipped from, and put it on again.  Repeat until
    you get it all the way on.  With experience, you will learn how to
    minimize the pain. 

5.  Once the tire is all the way on the rim, inflate it enough that it 
    will hold its proper shape - not all the way hard.  Now work all the
    way around, sliding parts of the tire sideways on the rim so that
    the same amount of rim tape shows on both sides.  Make it as even as
    you possibly can within the bounds of reasonable time. 

6.  Use a solvent to clean the excess glue off the braking surfaces of 
    the wheel.  There are commercial rim-cleaning solvents that won't eat 
    your tires.  Be careful not to let the solvent get between the tire
    and rim, or you'll blow your gluing job. 

    Do not strive for absolute pristine cleanliness - it is enough that
    the brake shoes won't drag through glue.  Those gorgeous advertising
    photos you see of pretty new racing bikes have got the tires mounted 
    without glue.

7.  Use some more of the solvent to clean your hands.

8.  Inflate the tire a little more and let the assembly sit overnight.

Good luck.  This is an art that you will learn with practice - just hope 
you don't get too much practice!

- Dick

    re .18	You left out the 0. step, which is
    
    
    
    			First, shave your forearms !

    

Re: .19

> First, shave your forearms !

Nah.  After you've mounted the first tire, you won't have to...