Conference noted::bicycle

    I tightened my headset down too much and had the same problem as
    you.  At least that's what the shop said.  Apparantly if you
    overtighten the headset you'll end up with a brindled headset
    (notched). 
    
    Campy is very high quality so 1400 miles of normal use is pretty
    soon to wear out the race.  I think you'll just have to replace
    the worn parts and not tighten it down as much.
    
    Dave
    

    It's also possible that it was installed incorrectly.  If the races
    were not set exactly evenly, then a flat spot could develop, as
    you describe.  
    
    The next question is: how do you tell what caused the problem, 
    overtightening or poor installation?  I'm afraid I don't know.
    
    MATT

    
    	You can rotate the races 90 degrees and get a little more use from
    it though.
    

Do you use your bike on a wind trainer? I was told by a mechanic 
that a fork mounted wind trainer can cause your headset to form a 
'groove'. It happens because you grab you handle bars and wiggle them
back and forth while riding. however, the fork is fixed and can't move.
This back and forth wiggle in the same spot over time can supposedly
cause a groove to form.

Mano

    No,  I don't have a wind trainer, but that's useful information
    and a good arguement for rollers.  The other two replies are 
    helpful too...  Thanks for your thoughts.
    
    I called International and was told that if the headset loosened
    up, pitting in the alloy could occur.  I told them that I thought
    this should be a warrenty item (1400 mi.) but got a "Ya, but"'s.
    
    Has anyone dealt with International on warranty issues?  Are they
    reasonable and fair?
    
    If they want to hit me up for the cost, I may try the 90 degree
    rotation trick.
    
    Thanks
    
    /John

    I haven't dealt with International, but I had a similar headset
    problem.  I had bought my bike about 9 months earlier from Gamache's.
    I brought the bike back to them, George was willing, with a little
    coaxing, to replace the headset.  Actually, I ended up with a much
    better headset for the $15 price difference.  Seems to me that as
    long as your bike is under warranty and you haven't done anything
    ridiculous to damage the headset, the warranty should be good.
    
    Good luck,
    Kathy

	If you can't get the shop to warrenty the headset then have
    	it overhauled and replace the bearings with free bearings.
    	This will extend the life of the headset.
    
    	It is my opinion that this is a normal problem with headsets
    	that use captive bearings.
    
    	Dave

    I'd agree with .7 that it's a normal problem.

    I've replaced two headsets this year that had flat spots (identifiable
    when the forks want to settle into the straight-ahead position when
    allowed to swing free). When I looked at the worn headsets, they both
    had dents in the bearing surfaces matching the position of the
    ball-bearings. As hinted by .3, if you take it apart and re-assemble,
    it should be ok (so I've read) because the ball-bearings and the
    bearing surfaces will be rotated to a different relative configuration.
     
    I replaced them though, with Red-S headsets. This headset has a
    plastic body, so is lighter, and uses roller-bearings between steel
    bearing surfaces. Since a roller-bearing must have a greater contact
    area than a ball-bearing, I hope it will have less propensity to
    dent the bearing surface. Only time will tell.
    
    Rod   (just back from my cycling holiday)

    	What's the average lif expectancy of a headset.
    	I just got my bike back from Wheel Works after an overhaul in
    which the Shimano 600 headset was replaced.  I was told "you got 
    almost 2 years and 4000 miles on your headset, that's about average".
    I have nothing to compare this information with.  Is that "the way
    it is"?
    
    Nick
    (love my (now smoothly running) Cannondale)

    I think headsets should last a long time, couple of years and 10000
    miles or more.  Bearings may go faster because they don't roll round,
    they wear into more of an eggshape.
    
    If a headset goes after 4000 miles, it may have been too tight in the
    first place causing pitting in the races (burnelling?).  I've had a
    few that I could never adjust right and I hate them.  I've had others
    where I did everything right and they're going on their third or fourth
    year.
    
    I do not have good luck with Campy's expensive ones.  I have one that's
    doing it's fourth or fifth year (Super record)  but I've Supers and C's
    go very quickly, also.
    
    ed
    love my, let's see which one is it this week, Serotta?

    re: .9
    
    A factor that leads to early headset failure is that when bikes
    come from a factory assembled the headset is tightened down so the
    fork doesn't turn in the box. This can damage the races and flatten
    the bearings. 
    
    	Paul

    No personal experience (my Stronglight Delta headset works like
    a champ), but I've heard more than one bicycle mechanic say that
    a headset is the most disposable part of a bike.  They take a fair
    amount of shock.  The mechanics say life expectancy is tough to
    predict (depends on how, and where you ride).
    
    I'm hoping to get good life out of my Stronglight.  It not only
    uses needle bearings for greater surface contact (as compared with
    ball bearings) but also has replacable races.

    I ride a Cannondale and the bike came with a 600 headset.  It lasted
    on season (3000 miles).  Cannondales are very good at eating headsets
    because that are sooooo stiff (despite claims of smoooth rides).
    I currently have a Campy headset (super record) and about 1500 miles.
    So far so good.  Many people have found that no matter what headset
    they use, the don't last well in certain bikes or conditions so
    they don't bother to but expensive ones in.  If you do it your self,
    then a 600 headset a year is pretty cheap.
    
    Quinn

    Another factor which is related to the early demise of headsets is
    the size of the headtube.  The shorter the tube, the greater the
    stresses placed upon the headset by the bouncing of the fork &
    frontwheel.  Georgena Terry explains this when seh describe the
    design of her bikes.
    
    ed

    RE: .14
    
    	Well that explains the problems I've had with my little (19")
    bike.    The headset is getting beat to death, and the front
    end has been so stiff as to vibrate my hands numb.
    
    	Last week, I fixed the vibration problems by adding an
    "Offroad flexstem".   It was kind of expensive, ($80!) but it
    works real good.   I don't know if this will extend the
    headset life though, since the shock absorbing part of the stem
    is above the headset, and the headset itself is still subjected
    to the road vibration, even if my hands are now cushioned.
    
    	At any rate, the flexstem does seem to be an effective
    way of modifying a stiff front end.   They're kind of long
    though, from 100 mm to 150 mm.
    
    						Alan.

After about 5000km the Shimano 105 headset on my Raleigh is fairly heavily
notched, which I don't like. I understand that if I remove and reassemble
the headset I'll probably get a partial cure, but I was thinking I might
move to a roller-bearing headset like a Stronglight on the assumption that
it will be more resistant to notching. However I'm worried about this thing
called stack height.

I cut the steerer tube of the front forks to fit a Shimano headset. If I
move to a different make of headset, am I liable to run into the problem
of there not being enough steerer tube for the locknut to grab? What other
makes of headset have a similar stack height to Shimano?


Rod

    The stronglights that we wanted to put on Linda's Treks had 5-7 mm
    greater stack height than the Shimano 600 that came off.  We milled the
    head tube on one and on the other we put on a Campy Chorus. I think the
    Chorus is the short one.  (This was because I thought "Nah, Linda would
    never make a short head tube shorter and elected the Campy instead of
    the milling.  If I had only known.:-)  ).
    
    ed

    
    
    	Why is it so difficult for all component manufacturers to make
    their equipment a standard size? Ever since I had to butcher my forks
    to make them fit my Shimano headset, I've not had the courage to change
    from Shimano...  Or have I just answered my own question?
    
    Graham.

    because they are all like a bunch of digital managers, can't agree on
    one way to do something -- till forced to.  :-)
    
    ed

No there isn't a standard headset stack height. I don't think you really need 
one. You can do this yourself with the correct washers. I have a SHIMANO Dura 
Ace with its moderate stack height of 36.3mm. I know that the Campy models are 
40mm so I had the steerer tube cut a bit long and added a couple washers to 
bring the stack height up to 40mm.

Tom

If you can put the Stronglight on, I doubt you'll regret it. I had to
mill the head tube a tiny bit on one of mine to replace a POS headset. 
Worked grand, even with the locknut having a pretty tenuous grip on the
fork threads.
                     ken

    
    	You don't really need one, but if it's not difficult what's the
    problem? It's the same all over not just with headsets, not even just
    with cycling. For example, when oh when will the world realise that
    Sterling is the best currency and adopt it? Then we don't have to
    bother about currency conversions. My parents are just back from
    Turkey. The exchange rate was roughly 12000 Turkish wotsits (lira I
    think) to the pound. 12000!!!???  What sort of currency is that? Mind
    you, under the current UK economic climate, it's still a lot stronger
    than sterling. Maybe I'll mention that to Norman Lamont as his new
    strategy - change the currency to the Turkish lire. It'll save him from
    creating World War 3 between us and the Germans anyway...
    
    Graham.

    "No there isn't a standard headset stack height. I don't think you really need
    ..."
    
    Difficult if the steer tube's been cut for a short head set already...
    
    ed

My 979 has a Stronglight needle roller headset.  It is fine but I was
disappointed to find that it is not very waterproof and had gone rusty.  Next
time I go to Fusberti's I'm going to ask about other offerings as the start of
my plan to change to "sealed" BB and hubs.

As an aside to my previous note, there are two things I would advise people
NEVER to do to a pair of forks -

1.  Don't cut off excess thread, use washers.
2.  Don't reduce the diameter where the crown race fits.

I think these two actions lead ultimately to disaster.......

    
    	I have a 1.25" headset on my Cannondale with an A-TAC stem that
    is about 1.5" dia. sitting on it. It looks very impressive.
    
    	Roger

Re .25:  I cut the steerer tube on the new bike to fit a Shimano headset.
Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't. Felt like vandalism even while I was
doing it... 


Rod

In the club I used to belong to, a guy had a problem getting the headset out of
a frame.  For some reason, he thought it would help if he sawed through the down
tube and the top tube.........

Another suggestion, seeing you seem to be on good terms with Raleigh, perhaps
the forks could be doctored to come unstuck so you can get a new pair.  Failing
that perhaps you could buy a new pair, with the pound at 8,60........

>In the club I used to belong to, a guy had a problem getting the headset out of
>a frame.  For some reason, he thought it would help if he sawed through the down
>tube and the top tube.........

Well? Did it help???
                            ken

Raleigh should have marked the package free replacement and then there would have
been no problem. (well that's my opinion, and I know nuthin).

They did...

I'd like to re-build the headset on my beater bike (12 year old Univega) but I can't
seem to get the stacking washers off. They have 3 equally spaced nothches on the sides
similar to a BB lockring so it seems that a smaller version of the BB tool would be used
to loosen them. I went to Gamache's on Sat expecting to get such a tool but they had never
heard of one. I have tried channel locks and a Park pin tool but can't budge them.

Have also sprayed on massive quantities of Wd-40 to no avail. The only thing I haven't 
tried is the ultimate loosener of rused-on nuts/bolts: Coca-Cola.

Anybody have any suggestions/comments/tool they want to lend ?

-tom

    Can you attempt to tighten the upper race, using a piece of wood in the
    upper part of the fork, thereby breaking the seal?  A good pair of
    channel locks with a piece of wood for leverage in the forks usually
    works.  
    
    good luck
    steve

I got them loose last night by using a BB lockring tool. The problem was the diameter
of the washer was too small for the tool all by itself so I just put a pencil next to
the washer to give the BB tool something close to the diameter it wanted to work with,
applied the appropriate muscle and off it came.

-tom
 

Re my own .16 and following replies:  I've just replaced the Shimano 105
headset with a Campag Veloce headset - no stack height problems. 

Mind you, if I was Campag I would have made damn sure that anything Veloce
could go anywhere that anything 105 could. Seeing that they're such obvious
competitors.


Rod

I have a 4 year old Trek 1400 (Al frame) and I can't seem to get the stem out
no matter how much I tap (not-so-gently) on the expander bolt with my trusty
hammer and block of wood.

I don't believe the stem has ever been removed before so I'm wondering if I'm
seeing the phenomena where 2 dissimilar metals "weld" themselves together if
not periodically separated.

Any suggestions before I take the bike down to Chelmsford Cyclery ?

-tom

    That happened to one of Linda's a month ago, so I duplicated her
    efforts, then a light bulb went off:
    
    I unscrewed the bolt and pulled out the stem leaving the expander
    bolt behind.  it was one of the wedge shaped expanders not one of
    conical ones.  THen with the stem out I rescrewed the bolt into the
    wedge, now I had a lot more leeway to push the bolt every which way
    the break the bind the wedge had on the steer tube.
    
    Good Luck.
    
    ed

I recently borrowed my secretary's (Penny) tandem so that my wife & I could give it
a test drive before we possibly buy one.  It's a few year old Satana Sovereign with
a Deore XT headset.

After a few hundred miles the headset began clanking with a sound similar to what
you might get if something were hitting every other spoke.  Penny's husband said
that sometime he reverses the front wheel & the noise goes away.  I did this & the
noise stopped temporarily.  He also said that the last time the tandem was in the
shop the mechanic said the headset has a tendency to tighten-up (???) on it's own.

I've tried adjusting the headset by loosening the lock-nut & turning the ring (?)
in both directions & then riding it.  It's still making the noise.

Any ideas?  I obviously don't want to continue riding if I'm doing any damage.

Thanks!
Ray

    
    Has anyone cleaned the bearings recently?
    
    Graham.

>>>Has anyone cleaned the bearings recently?

They (the owners) had the tandem in for other repairs early in the season.  The headset
was making noise then so I suspect that the bearings were cleaned.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that we took the bike out this weekend & had a
front flat.  When we put the tire back on the owner, who was riding with us, didn't
tighten the skewer as much as I normally do & the noise stopped.  The front hub has
sealed bearings.  Would any of this make a difference in the headset clanking?

Thanks again,
Ray

>>>When we put the tire back on the owner, who was riding with us, didn't
tighten the skewer as much as I normally do & the noise stopped.

Penny was kind enough to point out to me that we didn't really put the tire back on
the owner!  Here's the corrected sentence. 

When we put the tire back on, the owner, who was riding with us, didn't
tighten the skewer as much as I normally do & the noise stopped.

    
    Is the noise coming from the top or the bottom of the headset. If it's
    the bottom you may find that the noise isn't actually coming from the
    headset, but the fork crown. If so, then I'd very quickly check that
    the forks don'thave any cracks starting.
    
    If not, then it's probably coincidence. maybe... :-)
    
    Graham.

    Could it possibly be a rim/spoke problem?  Perhaps something rattling
    between the two layers of rim?
    
    Does it make noise all the time, or just when you hit a bump?
    
    Generally speaking, worn headsets don't make noises if the headset is
    tight.  However if the headset is loose, this could be the problem.
    
    steve

    >When we put the tire back on, the owner, who was riding with us, didn't
    >tighten the skewer as much as I normally do & the noise stopped.
    
    
    Possibly a broken axle? I know someone who rode a couple hundred 
    miles on a bike making a banging noise with a similar story. It 
    turned out that the axle was broken in such a way that it was held
    together by the tightness of the skewer. When he pulled the wheel
    and took of the skewer, it became quite evident when half the axle 
    fell out into his hand 
    
    
    doug
     

After overhauling the Shimano RX100 headset on my road bike, I've noticed
that it requires just a tad more effort to steer the bike now than it did
before.  I don't know if I'm being too picky or what, but I expected the
bike to steer the same as it did before my overhaul.

The bike is 3 years old and has about 6500 miles on it.  This is the first time
the headset's been overhauled and the steering was fine before I did it.
I replaced the old bearings with new ones, cleaned the races, and packed it all
back together with new grease.

I tightened it so that it turned without excessive force and did not bind, but
also didn't allow any play in the fork.

Is it normal to feel a little stickier after a fresh overhaul or do you
think it's too tight?  I did try it a little looser, but detected play in the
fork, so I tightened it back the way it was.

-Buddy

Better to run them with a *little* slack in them.  Too tight leads to pitting 
 and indenting of the balls in the races, you then get the dreaded notchy 
effect.  I would guess you have them too tight.  BTW, always test with the 
bare frame, you cannot tell very well with the bars and stem (and maybe front 
wheel) fitted.

    Something doesn't sound right.  Either adjustment is off, headset is
    not in a symetrical plane, you replaced with wrong size bearings,
    inferior bearings, or you had something wrong inside that the old
    bearing adjusted to.  I recently worked on a bottom bracket where we
    put it together and it didn't work well (original parts).  Owner didn't
    want to replace anything.  We swapped the bearing races on either side
    and it now works great.  
    
    If you haven't done a headset before, find someone who can provide some
    advise.  If you are in the central ma area, contact me directly, I am
    currently running a bike workshop on the last week and we are doing
    headsets tonight.  I can take a quick look at it.
    
    steve

    you should replace headset bearings when you overhaul your headset.
    The bearings wear such that they become egg shaped because they only
    roll in one plane wearing only in one circle on their formerly
    spherical surface.  When you clean and regrease them and then
    reassemble you put all of the 'eggs' into the races with different
    orientations and they all make contact with the race surfaces
    differently depending on which ones are contacting their old
    equators to the races, etc.
    
    having said that, which I didn't make up by the way :-), I think
    the egg shapedness of the bearings is too small for most of
    us to ever detect and you should ignore this and do as the
    earlier note said, loosen the headset a little and get out and ride.
    
    ed

    Which all goes to prove the old adage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix
    it" :-)    I used to get paranoid about the slightest little lumpiness
    in headraces, but unless it's really pitted or too tight, it really 
    doesn't matter that much does it? Hope yours is better soon, Buddy.
    
    Chris

Thanks for the replies, folks.

I did replace the bearings with new ones, so I think I'll just loosen it up a
bit and ride it.  The concensus I'm getting is that "too tight" is a common
mistake with headsets which can lead to premature wear or damage.

I'll see if I can loosen it up a bit without introducing too much play.

Thanks again,

-Buddy

Buddy,

As I recall (haven't done a headset in awhile) the headset bearings had a
bearing holder. Did you put new loose bearings in the head set? I don't think
this should make much of a difference but it made explain why it feel a little
tight in the beginning. You might want to ride it for a day and see if it
will work in. As long as you did not bind the bearings, it should be OK. 


You can always upgrade to a set of 600 headset:-) I don't think you will have
the stack height for Campy or Dura Ace. The cost will be putting on and taking
off racers though (Special tools).


Good Luck,

Dave

On the loose bearing issue, you can also get too many balls in the races - 
this will make it appear too tight as well.  Rule of thumb no 997: Always 
leave space for 1 more.  With a caged set of balls, you will not see this 
problem assuming you use the correct one (for example - some Campag track 
sets used a different sized ball, only 1/64" but that's a lot in this 
industry).

    just a nit... there should be no "break-in" period for this type
    work. the steering action should be very smooth and should be able
    to swing one way or the other when tilted.
    
    Chip

>As I recall (haven't done a headset in awhile) the headset bearings had a
>bearing holder. Did you put new loose bearings in the head set? I don't think
>this should make much of a difference but it made explain why it feel a little
>tight in the beginning. You might want to ride it for a day and see if it
>will work in. As long as you did not bind the bearings, it should be OK. 

Thanks for the reply, Dave.  Yes, I did use the same bearing holder, but
now I'm second guessing myself about the orientation of the bearing holder
in the races.  The manual I used says to leave the open ended portion of the
C shaped holder towards the races.  I'm pretty sure I did it right, but since
it doesn't turn as easily as before, I'm having second thoughts.

I do want to ride it a while and see if it loosens up a bit, but some people
believe there should be no "break-in" period required (of course, there's
always the possibility that this person is still suffering from Ti fever ;-)
Sorry, Chip - couldn't resist!)

>You can always upgrade to a set of 600 headset:-) I don't think you will have
>the stack height for Campy or Dura Ace. The cost will be putting on and taking
>off racers though (Special tools).

Yeah.  I was thinking of this.  If it doesn't work out, I'll just bring it to
a shop and have them throw on a 600.  After all, it has been 3.5 years and
about 6500 miles (New England pothole-type miles).

BTW, Dave, I'll be at Buchika's tomorrow for a bike fit analysis with John
Maurice.  I might mention it while I'm there and have them take a look.

-Buddy

    there is no break in period -- unless you want 'indexed steering'  :-)
    
    ed

    -1 hey, i've had that a couple times!  :-)
    
       Chip

    
    
    		Although there is no "breakin" required.  The bearings
    should be allowed to "seat"  themselves propery.  Basically, you
    should adjust it so there is no play.  Then, take it on a vigorous
    ride and re-adjust.

An update on my headset overhaul:
    
>    		Although there is no "breakin" required.  The bearings
>    should be allowed to "seat"  themselves propery.  Basically, you
>    should adjust it so there is no play.  Then, take it on a vigorous
>    ride and re-adjust.

This is what I eventually had to do.  At first, after repacking with new
bearings and new grease, it seemed tight.  After a few rides it loosened up
and I noticed grease collecting at the top bearing race on the steerer tube.
I tightened it up again and now it feels fine.  No play, but it steers freely.
I even notice smoother braking with the front wheel, now.  Not as jerky as
before.

BTW - I've always had some jerky braking in the front.  Even with a new set
of Mavic Open4CD rims.  It seems like the brakes catch a bump on the rim
(probably the weld where the seams join) and it jerks the fork.  Does this
happen with all road rim/brake pad combinations?  Maybe my fork is too flexible?

Ideas?

    i run mavics (4cd's) and it is the weld you feel. btw, it won't wear 
    down...
    
    you'd have to explain (quantitatively - somehow) what the "fork jerk"
    is like. mine is very noticeable in the front, but shouldn't be cause
    for alarm.
    
    Chip

   I've had that rim bump while braking on some Arya rims (the same kind of
   narrow rims as the Mavic O4CD.

   This never occurs on *any* of the MA2 (uncoated) or MA40 (hard anodized)
   rims I have, which are exactly the same except the MA40 have this hard
   anodizing coating (that reduces braking in the wet untill it wears
   off the side of the rims) and the coated rims are more expensive.

   I don't think I'd put up with this defect again - does it really happen
   with the O4CD rims in general?  The Arya rims were real bad, especially
   the front rim, unfortunately they were super rugged and lasted for
   a long time, through many winters as a set of winter wheels.

   Since this is really a note about headests, I'll put in a plug for
   the Mavic roller bearing headset (for road bikes.)  It's a super
   smooth and rugged design with no sign of notching after over a year
   of use in all kinds of weather (well over 10K miles.)

   - Jim