Conference noted::bicycle

    
    Hi Pat. Hope you're still monitoring this becuase I really need
    some help. Actually, I reaaly need to get comfortable. I will
    try and call you later, but I will outline my concerns so that 
    anyone else with inputs can plug them in.
    
    I just recently purchased the Chorus Gruppo and have the Synchro
    II set up. If what you said about "late shifting" is true, it
    makes me feel better about one of my concerns. That being it's
    the way it's supposed to act. I expected much more precision out
    of it and no jockying the level to eliminate the noise. 
    
    I hope the gruppo is compatible with Synchro II. The next issue
    is my shifting is very inconsistent. I have adjusted it and it
    works well for a mile or two. Then I begin to get chain drag
    (no shift) sometimes and then it will shift the next. At times
    it wont downshift (more chain drag) then it will. Sometimes I have
    to shift two clicks to get one sprocket shift, other times I don't.
    Pretty weird, huh? By the way, I've got approx. 65 miles on the
    this cycle on a trainer. You know it's going back to the shop today.
    
    Any ideas on this one? I'm having another problem that may be connected
    to this whole mess. On the bottom chain ring I pick up rough peddling
    action. It's like I feel every connection between the teeth and
    the the chain when pedlling. I don't get this on the top chain ring.
    If I turn the crank and watch the chain move through the chain guide
    I can see it move/jerk as it leaves/lands on the bottom chain ring.
    Back peddling produces the same thing. The chain is not too tight
    and the rear wheel is centered and straight. Also, I'm picking up
    noise from the rear (either derraillier sp? or freewheel/hub). It's
    a clicking noise that occurs every second pedel revolution. It also
    transfers to the crank as I'm peddiling in the form of a very subtle
    bump (synchronized with the click/chinking noise).
    
    Naturally, I'm a little bummed. I sank a great deal of money into
    this set up (for me anyway) and I'm concerned. I'm pretty comfortable
    that the dealer will treat me right, but any experience/ideas that
    the "real world" can provide will be GREATLY APPRECIATED!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Chip

    > The next issue
    > is my shifting is very inconsistent. I have adjusted it and it
    > works well for a mile or two. Then I begin to get chain drag
    > (no shift) sometimes and then it will shift the next. At times
    > it wont downshift (more chain drag) then it will. Sometimes I have
    > to shift two clicks to get one sprocket shift, other times I don't.
    > Pretty weird, huh? By the way, I've got approx. 65 miles on the
    >this cycle on a trainer. You know it's going back to the shop today.
    
    
    Hi Chip.  I had a similar problem last spring.  I bought a new Trek,
    and put on the Suntour Index shifting system.  Very quickly, I became
    one miserable girl.  I should have known something would be wrong
    when it took the bike shop 3 days to get the system work in the
    beginning.  What seems to have helped the most was replacing the
    cable - switching to a really thick cable - I don't recall what
    diameter or anything.  And the first few rides, I needed to stop
    every 5 miles or so to tighten  the cable.  The index shifting makes
    the cable stretch more than friction shifting, and I had to work
    the initial stretch out of the cable.  My second problem was that
    my chainrings were somehow warped, or not mounted properly since
    they did not fall parallell to the frame.  A new set fixed the problem
    of sometimes having to double click to change 1 gear.
    
    Lastly, I had to "learn" how to shift properly.  i.e. learned to
    plan my shifting ahead of time, make sure I have a proper cadence
    while shifting, become more aware of what gear I was riding in.
    I had always been more of a recreational cyclists - proper shifting
    took a second seat to "enjoying the scenery".  But, having the index
    shifting now,  if you don't shift properly, it really makes a
    difference, and can ruin your whole ride.
    
    Maybe other people have other suggestions at what you could look
    at.  When I was having my problem, afew other noters gave me some
    suggestions, which is how I noticed the warped/misaligned chainrings.
    
    	-Nancy

    I purchased the Chorus gruppo last year.  It came with Synchro shifters
    and I was disappointed with the indexed shifting.  I found the perfect
    solution...   I switched to C-Record friction shifters.
    
    If you really want indexed shifting, I recommend the Dura Ace set
    up.  It's excellent.
    
    Phil

    Thanks for the responses. The dealer has the bike now. If I don't
    get any satisfaction out of the Synchro's I will abandon the in-
    dex system. Indexing (in theory is my experience only) sounds
    fantastic but if the rubber doesn't meet the road what the heck
    good is it. I'll go to friction because it wasn't that important
    to begin with. How much did the C RECORD set go for?
    
    I'll definitely make the dealer eat the Synchro's and put the
    credit into something that works - like C RECORD.
    
    Chip

    I'm not sure, but I don't think you need to bite-the-bullet for
    the entire C-Record conversion.  I think the Chorus rear is 
    compatable with the C-Record levers and if your happy with
    friction shifting this would only cost you about $30, and 
    provide you with a much smoother shifting set-up, plus
    the dealer would probably swap you even for the Synchro II's
    since they technically are worth more to him in inventory.

    I was considering a Colnago/Chorus combination with the Synchro
    II's but after actually comparing the feel of the Synchro II's
    (w/Athena Gruppo) with a bottom of the line Shimano 105 set up
    on a similar frame I backed out of the deal.  Right now I'm
    torn between manufacturers.  I like Campy for Brakes (Chorus),
    Cranks (C-Record), Seat Posts (all grouppos) and Shimano 600 or Dura
    Ace for everything else.  Hmmmmmmm wonder what this hybrid grouppo
    would be called Sham-cam-no-go ?  
    							Jerry
    everything else

    An update: I picked up the bike after work. I had a long and honest
    talk with the mechanic. He said they're junk too. He thinks that
    Campy just rushed in to jump on the band wagon and screwed up.
    They adjusted the indexing (he told me it was as good as it was
    going to get) and replaced the freewheel to a more "index com-
    patible" one. 
    
    I brought it home, immediately set it back on the trainer and ripped
    off approx. 27 miles. Guess what, I am now completely disenchanted
    with the Campy's Synchro II! On top of that, the noise I was picking
    up from the freewheel/derrailleuer is worse and the thing wants
    to shift on me! I know that shouldn't be a big deal. Either it's
    something that needs adjusting or it's a combination of the index
    junk and adjusting.
    
    Well, I blasted off back to the dealer and stated in no uncertain
    terms that I thought they were junk and received a lot of input
    from all you helpful people that it was the general concensus.
    Don't get me wrong, they've been great (Gamache's). Then, get
    this, one guy in there says "You know, it's Italian and that 
    stuff has its own character and is fussy. It's like the shifting
    gate of a Ferrari. A lot different than an American or Jap car."
    Do you believe this! I wanted to tell him what I would compare
    his character to, but I was nice. The closest this guy probably
    has ever gotten to a Ferrari was watching the Wide World Of Sports!
    So, the mechanic said that I could leave the Synchro's in the
    friction mode. I nicely said that I really didn't want something
    with an option that only half worked. I said I wanted C-RECORD!
    This guy is great and said I don't blame you. He also concurred
    that if you ever shift a SHIMANO DURA-ACE it's a comparison of
    chewing shoe leather to prime rib (the prime rib being D-A).
    
    Well, I've rambled enough. If something weird happen I promise 
    it'll be abridged.
    
    Chip

    RE: .4
    
    Harold, at International Bicycle in Brighton, made the switch from
    Synchro to C-Record shifters for no extra charge.  I'm happy with
    the C-Record shifters.
    
    Phil

    GREAT! I guess I'll only settle for THE BEST! Annnnnnddd, I'll try
    not to get taken in the process. Like I've said, Gamache's has really
    taken care of me. I have no complaints that are in their control
    and would always recommend them.
    
    Chip

>< Note 800.5 by ICBB::JSMITH "Bikes Spoke_n Here" >
>                               -< PJ is right! >-
>
>    						  Right now I'm
>    torn between manufacturers.  I like Campy for Brakes (Chorus),
>    Cranks (C-Record), Seat Posts (all grouppos) and Shimano 600 or Dura
>    Ace for everything else.  Hmmmmmmm wonder what this hybrid grouppo
>    would be called Sham-cam-no-go ?  
>    							Jerry
>    everything else


	Ya, I was thinking of putting together the same type of Groupo.
	(In my dreams;-)	

		
		Dura-Ace Cassete wheel set
		  "   "  Derailleurs
		600 Ultegra Brakes
		 "     "    Head Set 
		Campy C-Rec Crank (a piece of art)
		  "         Seat post
		Cinelli     Stem + Bar
	
	All on a Basso Gap...

		What a dreamer...
		

    re              -< an even swap >-

    Synchro Shifters aren't "Chorus SynchroII" or "C-Record".  Both
    groups include the same shifters, so don't let the guy feel like
    you're "upgrading" to C-Record.  From the catalog I have, Synchro
    II's are slightly more expensive than C-Record Shifters.
    
   
    JD

    Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. He's ordered a set of C-RECORD and
    CHORUS friction shifters for me to look at. Someone else had told
    me the same thing. There was an article in CYCLIST mag this month
    stating that the SYNCHRO II does work extremely well with a 
    SHIMANO 7 speed freewheel with Campy's ATHENA gruppo (hubs, etc...).
    They tout it as a combination that parallels performance to DURA-
    ACE indexing. Shifts after the "click" and all! 
    
    My experience would have me very cautious about even considering
    the experiment.
    
    Chip

>    stating that the SYNCHRO II does work extremely well with a 
>    SHIMANO 7 speed freewheel with Campy's ATHENA gruppo (hubs, etc...).
>    They tout it as a combination that parallels performance to DURA-
>    ACE indexing. Shifts after the "click" and all! 
>    
>    My experience would have me very cautious about even considering
>    the experiment.


	So buy Shimano!! The stuff works!!  You only have to adjust the
	cable every 300-400 miles and it takes all of 30 seconds!

	Maybe I'm too pratical, but I can't believe that people pay
	more money (significantly) for a product that doesn't work as
	well just because it says Campy on it!

	chris-who's-perfectly-happy-with-Shimano-600EX

< Note 800.12 by LEVERS::LANDRY >
                           -< the answer's obvious! >-

>	So buy Shimano!! The stuff works!!  You only have to adjust the
>	cable every 300-400 miles and it takes all of 30 seconds!

I agree totally!! Except that in over 7000m last year on Ultegra components, I 
probably had to adjust the cable 2 or 3 times.

Kevin

    RE: -1
    
    	I put 2000 miles on my bike since converting to SIS and
    haven't made an adjustment yet...including changing the freewheel...
    simply amazing...as a matter of routine maintenace I'm going
    to adjust it before I hit the road with that bike again this
    spring...now was that clockwise for slack or counter-clockwise
    .....hhhhmmmmm.
    						Jerry
   

    
    RE: 12,13,14
    
    	THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
    
    	I thought we had all lost our minds there for a minute!!!!
    
    	My latest bike has Campy Super record on it.  I just had to
  	buy it because I've heard so much about how "good" it is!
    	I've got to say I'm tremendously dissapointed!  I now have to
   	replace a headset (indexed steering!!!) and the thing shift
    	like S*&T.  "Oh once you get used to the overshift it's great"
    	Why should I?!?!?!?!?  Shimano doesn't overshift!!!!  I'm out
    	for a ride with my friends who have shimano, and we all reach
    	down to shift for the upcoming hill, their bikes all go "click"
    	and there they are....  Mine goes grind-grind-grind-overshift-
    	grind-grind-grind-got-it.  
    
    	Now I can't wait for it to wear out so I can buy something that
    	works......
    
    	Phew.....  I feel alot better now!!!
    
    	Stew

    
    I wouldn't wait! The biggest thing that bothered me was the mechanic
    and the dealer/owner knew they were junk and didn't mention it.
    I have been treated very fairly so I can't complain beyond that.
    I don't know what these guys are thinking: Maybe some day a
    miracle will happen and they'll work. or some poor slob will
    start mixing every gruppo/compoenents known to man in an attempt
    to hit on a working combination!
    
    You paid for it! It should work! It doesn't work! It never will
    work! Go for it! Get ahold of Ralph Nader. Just maybe if enough
    money is lost by these dealers they'll either inform us or com-
    plain enough to Campy so that they abandon indexing or do it
    right!
    
    Good luck,
    
    Chip

    I'd have to agree with .13, .14 and .15 too, if you want trouble-free
    indexed shifting, buy the Shimano components: I have Shimano 105 and it
    works very well. Suntour may be just as good, but I have no experience
    with it.
    
    I've had the feeling from some notes I've read in this file that
    indexing is "difficult" and you need to get the shop to set it up
    properly. That's nonsense - just buy the stuff, bolt it on, twiddle the
    adjuster until you find a nice balance between upshift and downshift,
    and you're away. 
    
    I doubt if Campag will get it right until they take a hard look at all
    the components involved in gear-changing - levers, cable, derailleur,
    freewheel, at least - and supply a matched set. That's what Shimano
    have done, and that's why their stuff works. Campag are having to work
    with the variable precision of other manufacturers' components,
    especially freewheels, so they can't hope to get reliable, repeatable
    results. 
    
    If you like Campag, and I do, buy their beautiful chainsets, seatposts
    and so on (I have, even if only the cheapie ones), but I think it's
    Shimano who are state-of-the-art as far as gear-changing is concerned. 
                     
    
    Rod

    .15 or thereabouts
    
    Stew, 
    
    You'll probably drop dead before your Super Record derailleur wears
    out.  They're notoriously durable -- that's why racers have used
    them for decades.  Try to get used to it.  Take pride in its old-
    fashioned manners. If you use a reasonably small rear cluster, it
    should work fine.  It just doesn't "click" like the new ones.
    [See my note titled "Nuovo Record" for more details....]
    
    [Others]
    
    Yeah, the Synchro stuff is junk.  The guy I deal with in Italy
    won't sell it.  I still might go for Campy (non-index) shifting
    on my next bike (Croce D'Aune) -- they've taken care of the 
    overshifting problems in this gruppo to the extent that you
    don't really NEED indexing. (Notice that extra funny bar that 
    runs alongside the derailleur body? That's what performs the magic.)
    
    [Finally]
    
    Actually, I'm having some problems with my Dura Ace-outfitted
    bike.  It shifts fine in the small ring, but in the big one, 
    it misses the shift from the second to the third cog.  I actually
    have to shift to the fourth cog and then backshift to the third!
    With racing season approaching, I can't stand for this much longer.
    Any ideas? (Turning the cable tension adjuster doesn't help.)

    MATT

    
    RE .18.
    
    Matt, Do I have a deal for you!!!!  You say you don't like you Dura-
    Ace setup???   Well I don't like my SR setup.....  What say we make
    a trade?????
    
    I'm game!!!!
    
    Stew

    One last update: I now am the proud owner of C RECORD friction shifters
    and am as happy as a fly in .... you know. Having had the experience
    of using indexing that didn't work and understanding how they should,
    I'm not disappointed that I didn't end up with indexing. I'm no
    racer looking to shave off a a second here and there. No do I belong
    to the Helen Keller school of shifting having to rely on the number
    of clicks. (Okay, maybe there is a little jealousy and if Campy
    ever gets it right - who knows, I may bite). Please, attacks. I
    know there is a contingent out there that likes and appreciates
    a good Nippon indexing system. Thanks to all who helped with my
    questions and provided advice.
    
    Chip

    I agree with the favourable comments about Shimano having been riding
    with 600 Ultegra since November.
    
    I can't find any difference between large and small chainwheels,
    but I have noticed something that may cause problems.  There is
    a difference between shifting on warm (>35C) days and cold (<20C)
    days.  I didn't think that the cable would stretch enough in the
    heat to make any difference.  Any comments?  Maybe it's just heat
    stroke affecting my mind on the warm days.      
    
    Richard

    re: .18 - 
    If you're having problems going from the top cog to the second but only
    on the big ring it may be due to any one of the following or a
    combination: 1) chain wrap is inadequate -- this is very often the case
    if you've cut the chain to the shortest length that will handle your
    large-large combination, particularly if you have a straight block,
    meaning a 53-18 -- make it longer but short enough so there's no slack
    with the small-small combo; 2) old chain -- if it has more than 2000
    miles it is suspect; 3) non Dura-ace/shimano freewheel -- others are
    okay but may give you problems; 4) your wheel isn't dished right and/or
    the rear axle is not perpendicular to the frame centerline; 5) the rear
    axle is too far forward in the dropouts; 6) the chain is rubbing the
    inside of the dropout on way the "up" because it's too close (7-spd?).
    
    re: .22 -
    The coefficient of thermal expansion is the same for the frame as it is
    for the cable (or very close, unless you have an aluminum frame), so
    you probably don't have a cable "stretch" problem. What about the
    lubrication on the chain? Is it tacky on cold days and oily on hot
    days? Do you have any tight links (sometimes these will be borderline,
    only being tight on cold days)?

    RE: -.1 
    
    The shifting problem I was having with Dura Ace was caused by a
    worn cog.  Now that a kind person in the US has sent me a replacement
    (for a small fee), everything works fine again.
    
    MATT