Conference noted::bicycle

    
    	If you happen to drag the pedal while trying to pedal
    	thru a corner the lock mechanism at the rear of the pedal
    	can be knocked off and you are left with a cleatless pedal.
    
    	I have seen this happen and other ridders have had similar
    	stories.

    What mail order place have you seen advertising them for $139?
    Thanks 
    Paul

    
    
    re .2
    
    the August issue of Bicycling, page 158 the name of the outfitt
    is Excell Sports International.
    
    Joe

    I've heard the Time system is better from a Bio-mechanical standpoint.
    One shop said that the lack of latteral movement in the look system
    has caused some knee and ankle injuries with some people.
    
    Does anyone have any info about this aspect of clipless pedals?
    

    I know this really late, but I have about 300 miles on my set. 
    Expensive? Yes! I purchased mine at Gamaches Cyclery in Fitchburg,
    Ma. Shoes were $136.00 and you know about the pedals. Excel Sports
    International offers the set-up: *PEDALS - 139.95 & *SHOES - 119.95.
    The 800 no. is 1-800-627-6664. They have an information, pricing
    and technical assistance no. (303) 444-6737. The address is:
    
                    EXCEL-SPORTS INTERNATIONAL - CATALOG DEPT.
                    1855 38TH STREET
                    BOULDER, COLORADO  80301
    
    They won't accept catalog requests over the 800 number. The product
    listing is free.
    
    P.S. I like them so far. 
    
    Chip

    re: -.1
    
    Excel Sports was very nice when I talked to them on the phone about
    Time pedals and shoes, however there is one small problem with their
    offering to part of the population.
    
    I asked for size 9 1/2 shoe, and their response was: we have size
    9 or 10.  I asked, "will you be getting in size 9 1/2?"  Their
    response was, "we only ordered full sizes, and don't expect to
    get any half sizes in the near future."
    
    I found that International Bicycle in Alston (MA) offered a price
    within $15 of Excel, and they had the right size.

    GOOD INFO.
    
    Chip
    

Could someone explain, in laymens terms, what are the major advantages of Time
pedals over other clipless systems?  From reading their advertisements they
seem to be saying that they allow some movement of your feet and that this is
more comfortable and better for your knees.

1) Is this accurate?  Are your feet allowed to move?

2) Is there any benefit to your knees or is this just a great solution to a
   non-problem?  By this I mean bicycling is generally considered to be quite
   easy on the knees, in fact many people get into the sport because they have
   had knee problems with other sports.

I saw a pair of the shoes in a shop this past week.  They are very heavy!

    The Time Pedals *are* different from other clipless systems in that
    they allow about 10 degrees of toe *and* heal movement.  Your Look,
    Sampson's, etc allow none.  Some Look compatible systems (Campy
    and the soon to be announced Mavic) will allow up to 10 degrees of
    heal-only movement.  The Time pedals where designed to solve this
    problem from the start, and as such are simple and elegant in design
    compared with the retro-design nature of the Look compatibles.
    
    The basic difference is that your foot finds its natural position
    on the pedals with virtually no adjustment (no fit kit cleat adjustment
    necessary).  The only adjustment for Time's is a simple fore-aft
    movement of the cleat assembly.  Its hard to describe, but the design
    of the Time system allows the shoe to rest about 1 cm closer to
    the pedal axle than other pedals (you will have to lower your seat
    accordingly).  They also have a lower profile than many other clipless
    systems.
    
    Because your foot "floats" on the pedal, it can find its correct
    position throughout the pedal stroke.  This is something that cannot
    be accounted for in any manner with a fixed binding system.  
    Does it make a difference?  That depends on you.  If you have near
    perfect bone structure, your foot position probably doesn't vary
    through the stroke, and the Time system wouldn't help (but certainly
    wouldn't hurt).

    One shop I talked with put the Time system in historical context.  They
    said in the old days you had leather soles and cleats.  As a matter of
    course, these broke-in in a way which allows for a certain degree of slop.
    This "slop" is essentially what the Time system simulates.  Although
    this isn't modern medical information, it provides some historic validation
    for the concept.
    
    How can you rationalize the Time system?  At discount they don't
    cost that much more than equal quality fixed binding systems.  The
    non-requirement for fit-kit cleat adjustment brings the price
    difference even closer.  Personally, past sporting endeavors have
    not been kind to my knees. If the Time system reduces the chance
    of medical problems by a small factor, they are worth it (one doctors
    is more than the price difference).  Just the notion of being locked-in
    with no degrees of freedom didn't feel good to me.  Unfortunately,
    it will take the medical world years to compile significant statistics on
    clipless pedal knee injuries.

    I know little about sports medicine or bio-mechanics.  It would be
    interesting to find medical opinions. 

< Note 796.9 by CURIE::HUPPERT >
                               -< more on Time >-

My knee doctor thinks that they're a good idea, and I must admit that the 
design makes sense to me.  However, I have heard that TIME pedals seem to be 
CAUSING knee problems.  This may be unsubstantiated rumors, but its enough to 
make me worry.  I have running-uncovered knee problems that require me to wear 
orthotics.  But in over 7000 miles of riding on LOOK's last year (and for 
a couple of years before that, too) I've not had any knee problems that I'd 
attribute to pedals.  I did have one problem last year, but I attribute that 
to getting a hot new bike and not taking the time to set the seat up EXACTLY 
like my old bike, and then going out to see how fast I could climb the local 
test hill.  Not too bright!  Since adjusting the seat correctly, I've had no 
problems.

I'll wait a while longer to see how well the TIME's work out.

Kevin

    
    I don't know about the rest of you who use the LOOK system, but
    I would not say that I have no mobility at all in the pedal.  I
    find that my foot can move quite a bit, and still not be close to
    coming out of the binding.  I don't know how many "degrees" it is.
    
    Anyone else?
    
    Stew

    
    After having the FIT KIT allignment for my LOOK cleats I don't 
    feel my feet trying to move at all. Before having the allignment 
    done I always seemed to be fighting the pedal to move my foot not 
    to mention the agravation of my knees. Now I have a much smoother
    motion and my knees do not bug me after riding.
    
    Paul

    re: .11
    
    It takes little pressure for your foot to float to the right position
    with Time.  You are not pushing against the release mechanism as
    you've described with the fixed bindings.
    

RE>>                             -< LOOK mobility >-

    
  >>  I don't know about the rest of you who use the LOOK system, but
  >>  I would not say that I have no mobility at all in the pedal.  I
  >>  find that my foot can move quite a bit, and still not be close to
  >>  coming out of the binding.  I don't know how many "degrees" it is.
    
  >>  Anyone else?
    
  >>  Stew

	Ya, my feet move around a little with out coming out of the pedal.
	I also had knee problems but once the cleats were aligned and I built
 	up my knee strenght they were fine. I think when you go to a binding
	pedal you're going to find your knee getting sore. I found I'm putting
	more torque on my knee due to having a direct power stroke though out
	my spin. Before there was a little less stress on the joint in certain
	parts of the spin. It took some time to build up the muscles aroung my
	knee to handle the stress on the joint. In the spring I have to watch
	out I don't push too hard or I'll get the same sore knee.

	Tom

    I'm closing in on the 400th mile with my new TIME system. Prior
    to TIME I had the cleat/cage set-up. I had no knee problems with
    my old set-up (I had NO movement in that set-up). I am experiencing
    no problems with TIME either. The transition was immediate and I
    did not allow "adjustment" time by altering my workout. Everything
    seems fine, but I do concur with many of the statements. The shoe
    is HEAVY! I'd say 3 time the weight of my cleated shoe. The upside
    is that the TIME shoe seems to be of very high quality. I think
    it'll last a long time (and better at $136.00 at whack!)
    
    It does force some fine tuning adjustments though. I agree that
    seat height is very important. I did rely on the FITKIT height
    and went to my original height and felt much more comfortable
    (about 90%-95% leg extension). Also, the pedal axis intersecting
    the front of the knee is very important for comfort. I have SCOTT
    bars and it seems all the more important. So far so good. 
    
    I like 'em. I have never done LOOK, but I'd probably like them too.
    
    Chip

    I've been told that the '89 Time shoe will be quite a bit lighter.

    I've got the (supposedly) '89 TIME shoe. I'll have to double with
    the dealer. Wow, if I do have their '89 shoe I can't imagine what
    the previous year's weigh-ins were! You can use mine with a diving
    suit and not have to worry about floating or other counter weights.
    
    To me, it would be quite simple to lighten them up. First, get rid
    of the cast mid-connector piece and replace it with an aluminum-
    magnesium (or something) alloy. Secondly, they could go with a
    much lighter, less dense upper. Thirdly, the sole itself is bullet-
    proof. I think a little sacrifice can be made here as well. I think
    if they went with lighter hardware materials (I know the materials
    will cost more) they may get close to a wash on cost in the other
    areas. Listen to me - and I'm no ergo/bio-ped engineer either.
    
    Chip

    RE -.1
    
    Due to a minor stitching defect, International Bicycle is replacing
    my '88 shoes with '89s.  They said their orders coming in sometime
    towards the end of March.  They said the sole is the primary part
    undergoing change (lighter and stiffer).  You are right, that heavy
    brass piece is also a prime candidate for lighter materials.  They
    didn't mention if thats also undergoing change.
    
    Last year I remember seeing a chart in some mag going over shoe
    weights and all that stuff.  The Time was about 25 to 30% heavier
    than other similar shoes.

    I'm debating whether or not to go with a TIME pedal & shoe
    system. I've read up on the specs of the pedals and shoes,
    but haven't heard much on how people like the system...
    
    Any TIME users care to comment on the pedal/shoe system?
    Are the pedals easy to enter/exit?
    Are the big-buck "titan magnesium" pedals durable?
    Are the TIME shoes holding out ok?
    Does the 10 degreee 'free float' mechanism feel like it's
     worthwhile?
    
    Mark

    
        >Any TIME users care to comment on the pedal/shoe system?
    
        I love my system.  I have the original ones with the heavy shoes.
        I don't know of any way that the binding will release under
        heavy sprint.
    
        >Are the pedals easy to enter/exit?
    
        Can't compare to other systems, haven't used other systems.
        No problems getting out in traffic.
    
        >Are the big-buck "titan magnesium" pedals durable?
    
        Using the old model.
        
        >Are the TIME shoes holding out ok?
        
        I was a leather show fanatic (leather bottom SIDI's) before
        these.  These shoes have shown no signs of wear to date.  Way
        overpriced, but isn't everything in this range.
    
        >Does the 10 degreee 'free float' mechanism feel like it's
         worthwhile?
        
        No pressure on my knees.  I was nervous about "locking in" with
        the Look system so I felt is was worthwile.  It certainly saves
        on having FIT kits being done with each pair of shoes.
    
         I don't even notice the rotation any longer.
    
        steve
    
        Mark
    

"It certainly saves on having FIT kits being done with each pair of shoes."
    
    I have 3 pair of shoes fitted with look cleats.  Only one was
    fit-kitted.  For the others I took some measurements and put the cleats
    on so that my feet would be in the same position with the new shoes as
    with the old.
    
    ed

Just to add my two cents.

	I've finally upgrade; from cleated w/toe straps to Time pedals. After
30 miles and one scratched-up knee I'm happy.  The knee resulted from my FIRST
attempt to engage the clips and the pedals...well I got one foot locked and down
I went.  I've not done that in over 10 years.  New technology - old mistakes: 
doomed to relive the past.

	The shoe's do seem to be self-RAD'ng within the bounds of how the clips 
are placed on the shoes.  This is good ( I think) since I move forward and back-
wards on the saddle quite a bit depending upon how I'm riding (e.g., spinning,
sprinting, trying to sprint on a hill etc...)

	In my short 30 miles I seem to be doing better going up hills, but that 
could have been my imagination or just a good day.

	I'll added more thoughts as my experience grows.

jbn