Conference noted::bicycle

(drool, slobber) What size is it?

Look for paint wrinkles and other things which might mean that it has
crashed.  Does the fork extend [starting] in a straight line from the
head tube or does it appear to be bent back a bit?

$1600 was a heck of a lot of bike in $1978.

ed

    The bike has a 25" frame. Any ideas on how much the Campy components
    may have changed over the years? Are there any particular models
    of components I should look for?
  
    Thanks,
    Charlie

    If it was a custom bike of that era, I would imagine that the bike
    should have Campy Record Components.  Lower in their line was the
    Gran Sport line.  Much of the Record line is still savored by many.
    The hubs, crankset, bottom bracket, brakes, and headset is still
    hard to beat.  It's generally recognized that the Record/Super Record
    derailleurs have been improved upon by Campy and everyone else,
    but these are still workhorses.
    
    Things that could be worn which should be checked are any moving
    bearing, especially the headset and bottom bracket.
    
    If the bike is French, it may have French threading which may be
    a pain to replace parts in the future.
    
    Also, bikes of that era tended to have longer top tubes (if it was
    really customer who knows), so the bike will handle and be fitted
    somewhat differently than today.
    
    good luck

    You must be pretty tall if 25" is the right frame size for you.
    I'm nearly 6'2", 33-34" pants inseam, and I'm selling a 24" frame
    because it's too big for me.  
    
    Rim technology has come a long way in the last ten years; so
    have pedals. How good are the tires?  are the cogs worn?  how do 
    the spokes look -- are they tensioned properly, wheels true? 
    (some indication of the care the bike's gotten)  Has the frame 
    been repainted?  Do any extra wheels, tires, tools come with 
    the bike?  There are tons of questions to ask.

    MATT

    I'd be concerned about the frame -- make sure it isn't too stressed
    out.  If it was a custom built frame you shouldn't have too much
    to worry about, but it still depends on how much the bike was ridden.
    You can probably expect the headset to have a ding in it since the
    bike is 10 years old -- but looking on the positive side, it'll
    just be easier to ride with no hands!
   

I've been riding the same 'good bike' since about 1973.  My hubs, wide
flange Campy Record, my crankset and bottom bracket, Campy Record.  My
headset, Campy Record.  And I bought the bike used. 

I broke the bottom bracket axle about the second year after I bought it.
This was before I knew about spinning, so I was abusing both the axle and
my knees.  Since then I have replaced the head set once, as it had some
flat spots.  Other than that, I've done simple bearing maintenance.  The
hubs still spin so smooooothllly.  When I upgraded my work bike a year ago,
I built new wheels with Campy Record hubs, rather than fool around with
anything else.

And I just put some new brakes on the good bike, a lovely set of old style
Campy Records!  Very smooth and strong, wonderful to work with, excellant
hardware.

Bikes and good components may become dated when real technology changes
occur, but good stuff almost never wears out.  Bearing races are
replaceable and ANYTHING Campy is supposed to be rebuildable.  I've never
had to test this myself.

There have been some real changes in derailleurs, especially for touring
gear ranges.  The expensive Campy stuff tends to be for racers, especially
the top of the line derailleurs.  I had to replace the Campy Record
derailleur with a Heuret DuoPar as my legs got older and demanded lower
gears for the hills.  But now I'm thinking about that new angle adjustable
Campy derailleur.  I'd love to test ride that!

Check the bike carefully, note down what the equipment really is.  Go away
and think about it.  Find a bike shop dealer you can trust.  Look at a
similar price range bike.  Ride both.  If the frame is custom, it should be
a good quality chrome-moly frame.  Reynolds 531 or Columbus tubing are
still wonderful today.

But whatever you do, spend just a bit more than you feel you can afford!

Good Luck,
Del

Since this seems to be a pretty one-sided discussion let me play the devils
advocate.

Are you going to ride this or are you the curator for an antique bike museum?
Although I admit $450 won't buy you much in the way of a brand new bike.  What
is the big deal about a "custom" bike?  It's not custom to you and you should
not pay for it.  An analogy is if I wanted the perfect suite of cloths I would
go to a tailor and pay $1000.  A lot of money but it would fit ME perfectly.
You would be better off picking a new suite off the rack. 

Components have come a long way in the past decade!  A couple of the biggest
improvements have been in rims and in derailleurs.  Did they have 6 speed
freewheels 10 years ago?  Admittedly some things haven't changed much but why
deal with stuff that's 10 years old with 10 years of use and abuse?

OK, I admit it I live in California, land of fads.  But we can ride 12 months a
year out here.  Campy is not king out here anymore.  We just don't share the
N.E. school of thought that says If it ain't Campy, it ain't shit. It's only a
guess but I would think that for serious/high-end bikes Shamino out sells Campy
about 5 to 1.  If you want the snob appeal of Campy go buy a tee-shirt (of
course it will cost more than a regular tee-shirt but it will last longer). 

    
    	I think 450 *may* be a good price for such a bike.   *IF* it
    fits you!   *If* the frame is not bent (ripples under the top end 
    of the 'down tube'?)

        I, however, also have doubt about a frame that's 25".   Many
    people end up selling these large frames to get smaller, less
    flexy frames.   Thus a 19" frame will sell at a premium, while
    a large 25" frame should go for less...
    
	An all campy bike is not necessarily a museum display yet.
    I recently sold one that had the 12 speed option, and new hardened
    rims.    It was well maintained.   I asked 450, and got it.   It
    was worth it, and I miss it a little.   (mine was about a 23" tho..)
    
    		Alan.

That good bike I've been riding since about 1973 is a 25 inch frame.  If
you have an in-seam that requires your saddle to be that far away from your
pedals, you have two basic choices.  You can have as much of the distance
from the pedals to your saddle as possible be made up of frame, or you can
include a long length of seat post to make up for a shorter frame.  I chose
to have as much frame as possible.  Sitting on a long length of exposed
seat post means you hope the aluminum is nice and stiff and that the frame
does not mind the extra leverage you are using on the top of the seat tube.
It also means you either don't mind having your handle bars at a lower than
normal height, or don't mind using an extra tall stem that also may have
flex problems of its own.

I suspect the short frame comments are based on bottom bracket flex, or
similar concerns.  If you do time trials, which I don't, then this may be
important.  If you just like to tour on a good bike that fits correctly, as
I do, then get a frame that fits.  Then spend the necessary two months or
so adjusting everything to fit you!  The comment about the frame not being
custom to you is a good one.  But if the frame size is what you need, think
about it!

Good Luck,
Del

    Well, I went to look at he bike over the weekend. The frame ended
    up being 64cm. For me, 25" was pushing it. The bike looked to be
    in nice shape. It had an Einstraut Frame (made in Oakland CA) Philwood
    Hubs and most of the other components were Campy. A guy that is
    6'6" tall was going to be looking at it on Sunday. It should fit
    him.
                 
    Thanks again for all the help.
    
    Charlie
    

I thought I'd respond to .7.

To me Campy Record and Super Record components had some of the attributes
of the PDP-8 or the Model T.  The stuff just wouldn't die.  I have just
never seen a well-used bike with 10 year old Japanese components.

I don't have the same feelings for the campy victory, triomph, chorus,
C-record, and croce d'aun.

As for what do I have/use?  Well, there're a few campy equipped and a few
shimano equipped and a few "random japanese" equipped, each for a different
purpose.

ed

    RE: .9
    
    I was the 6'6" guy who came over to look at the frame (actually,
    it was Saturday morning, just after you were there).  It was an
    interesting experience.
    
    Having started racing some 15 years ago on the West Coast, I am 
    probably more familiar with Eisentraut's work than most easterners.  
    In the '70s he was the premier frame builder in the nation (John
    Howard even had one repainted to look like the Raleigh's he was
    supposed to ride for CRCoA).  
    
    This bike is an impeccable example of the beautiful work Eisentraut
    was known for.  And based on its general condition, I can believe
    the owners claim that it had about 1200 miles on it.  And no, it
    didn't fit me, but at the same time, it did.  Allow me to explain;
    
    This bike had;
    
    	25" seat tube
    	23" top tube
    	16-1/4" chain stays
    	11-1/4" bottom bracket height
    	73 degree parallel angles and
    	2" fork rake
    
    I don't know what Eisentraut was thinking about when he designed
    this bike.  The only explanation I can understand is that the owner
    was measured for this frame by the bike shop owner who sold it to
    him (known fact) and that Eisentraut was influenced by this person
    to design a rather peculiar frame (speculation).
    
    Bottom line is - If there is anyone out there looking for a frame
    for a very tall person, with an inordinately high ratio between
    their inseam and the length of their torso, who is looking for a
    sport riding bike which is rather stable and not that quick in its
    handling, and who likes to pedal through corners, then this is the
    bike for them.                
    
    Jim
    
    PS - It wasn't even all Campy - it had an SR-Laprade seatpost of
    '70s vintage (i.e., rather poor quality casting).  Also, besides
    the Phil hubs, it had a Phil Wood bottom bracket.  All the other
    stuff was Campy Nuovo Record, and was in great shape.

    Ok, this is an old note, but I'm in a similar situation.  I'm
    considering (amongst others), a 12 year old bike equipped with all
    Campy Record gear.  The owner says it has app. 2500 miles on it, and
    we're virtually the same size so the frame appears to be a perfect fit. 
    Unfortunately, I have no real perspective on what that 2500 miles means
    - is it a lot, is it very little?  Also, the headset was recently
    replaced - would that be consistent with the claimed milage?  thanks.

    
    2500 miles per se isn't very much at all.
    
    Some headsets (the Campagnolo Super Record) can go within that
    mileage, depending upon the riding (RR crossings, etc.)... but
    you should investigate further.
    
    2500 miles of what type of riding?  Racing?  Any crashes?  Bike
    left out in the rain/ridden in the rain?  How's the frame alignment?
    
    Good luck...

>    Unfortunately, I have no real perspective on what that 2500 miles means
>    - is it a lot, is it very little?  Also, the headset was recently
>    replaced - would that be consistent with the claimed milage?  thanks.

Being the proud & pleased owner of the bike in .0, I can say that the 
older Campag stuff (and Phil stuff) seems to be cranking right along 
just fine. I wouldn't expect any major damage or wear to most components 
in that time, with the possible exception of the headset. Headsets seem 
to be a religious subject with some; some insist that even the slightest
detent in the steering is unacceptable, and others figure as long as you 
can wrestle the bike thru turns somehow it's not worth bothering about. 
From my view, a headset with 2500 miles on it oughta be just fine, but 
some folks could very well insist on replacing one at this distance.
A better judge of the distance would be the condition of the rest of the 
components - other than dirt and surface wear, at this age things should 
be pretty much brand-new. Check things like sprocket and der. jockey 
wheel teeth for excessive wear....
                                        ken

    <<< Note 762.14 by SHALOT::ELLIS "John Lee Ellis - assembly required" >>>
    
>    2500 miles per se isn't very much at all.
    
It's not much at all.  John Lee, you must do that much every month.  2500 over
10 years is only 250 per year.  That bike might have the original tires on it!

    Ok, now perhaps someone can tell me something about Campagnolo Record
    gear . . . How does it differ from the more current stuff (c-record?)
    Is it just a matter of the number of gears?  Was the Record their top
    of the line?  What about indexed shifting?  Can I assume that the older
    model would not have it?  thanks.
    							Joe

Reply to <<< Note 762.17 by CRBOSS::BEFUMO "Between nothingness and eternity" >>>

>    Ok, now perhaps someone can tell me something about Campagnolo Record
>    gear . . . How does it differ from the more current stuff (c-record?)

I assume "gear" meand the shifters, derailleurs, etc., and not *just* a gear
cluster!

>    Is it just a matter of the number of gears?  Was the Record their top
>    of the line?  What about indexed shifting?  Can I assume that the older
>    model would not have it?  thanks.

The Record is a very old design.  It's a basic parallelogram with the jockey
gear offset quite a bit from the parallelogram body.  This offset is *required*
because of the design to ensure that the jockey gear maintains a reasonable
distance from the actual gears of the gear-cluster.  When the derailleur shifts
to a larger gear, the increase in chain-wrap *pulls* the jockey gear back, mak-
ing room for it to traverse, safely, across to the larger gear.  A shift to a
smaller gear decreases chain wrap and the jockey gear is thrust forward pulling
it closer to the smaller gears.

This design worked great when there were small differences in the front chain-
rings.  Twenty years ago you'd see 48-52 combinations.  This smaller difference
had little affect on the position of the rear derailleur's overall and the
derailleur performed about the same regardless of the front chainring chain
position.  Later, when the front chainrings started to look more like 42-52
combinations, the affect on the Record jockey gear was substantial.  Basically,
you could set-up your derailleur to work great when on the 42 and poorly on the
52, or great on the 52 and poorly on the 42, of compromise the performance on
both.

Note: this is all a paraphrase from an article I'd read in Bicycling Magazine
      many years ago.  I, personally, have a Super Record and it works just
      fine.  It *does* work better when I'm on the 42 in front.  One of the nice
      things about the Record, Nuovo Record, and Super Record is that they were
      all very stiff derailleurs.  That helped their overall performance.

Anyway, Suntour came along with the slant-parallelogram design which worked very
nicely when you had a 42-52 front.  That's because, because of IT'S design, the
jockey gear ALWAYS maintains the SAME distance from the rear gears, regardless
of the front position.  Chain wrap had no affect.  Back when Suntour had an
exclusive patent on this design, Bicycling Magazine made references to the fact
that Campy and Suntour were the *best* shifting derailleurs around...period!

Well, when the Suntour patent ran out, *everyone* jumped on the slant parallelo-
gram bandwagon.  Campy came out with Chorous, Athena, etc.  Shimano revamped
Dura Ace and everything else.  Overall, shifting performance probably improved
substantially for everyone's equipment.

From what I've been able to observe, the current Campy top-of-the-line is
the C-Record groupo.  It's rear derailleur is very similar to the Record family.
I don't know if it shifts any better.  The Record family has a "late shifting"
characteristic.  This means that to get a shift, you OVERSHIFT a bit and then
shift back to center the jockey gear.  This may sound like extra effort, but I
find it quite accurate and I do it automatically.  Slant parallelogram designs
are probably early-shifting...which is why you can design an indexing system for
them.  Some (Shimano?) have self centering jockey gears which helps.

Dick

P.S.
I *do* however wish someone could let me try out a Chorous rear derailler
someday.  I'm very curious about how it performs compared to my Super-Record.
It's a slant parallelogram design and the jockey gear has no offset from the
body of the derailleur at all.  (The Shimano Dura-Ace and Campy Athena have a
small offset...this may or may not work better.)

    In terms of the other components:
    
    o Hubs: Very strong and durable.  Watch out for width, may need to
      change from 120 to 125 (axle length actually longer) to accomodate
      6 or 7 speed freewheels.
    
    o Crank and BB: Also of very high quality.  Wears very well.  BB very
      smooth.  Bearing surfaces and hard chanrings are what campy does
      well.
    
    o Brakes: Also very nice, may wish to change levers to the aero look. 
    
    o Pedals: Very strong like the other equipment.  Many sitting in
    storage now that clipless is around.
    
    o Seatpost: Pain in #*#* to adjust, heavy but usable.
    
    Note: Buying parts ie:chainrings are very expensive.  Take close look
    at all the components.
    
    steve

    Thanks for all the info.  As tempting as it was to go for the sold
    super-bike, I think I'm going to lean toward something new and state of
    the art.