Conference noted::bicycle

    	I don't think that anyone was suggesting that it is fun to get
    hit or chased by dogs.  (why else would we refer to Zefals as 
    "Dog-Whackers"?)  Dogs are inevitable, and you can either let them
    raise your blood pressure, or try to find humor in the situation.
    

> I have no sympathy for the dog, or harming it if it is on public 
> property.  

	If a dog attacks you on a public road, I believe you have the 
	legal right to kill it.  Unfortunately, carrying a rifle or
	bow on a bike is a bit awkward and getting a handgun permit in 
	Massachusetts if very difficult.  Other means of dispatching
	the dog are either too slow (poison) or too messy (a spear
	or knife).  Is there a practical way of stopping an attacking
	dog permanently?

	I'm afraid the most practical solution to dog deterrence is to 
	whack it on the head with a dog pump or spray it in the face with
	something noxious (ammonia or HALT!).

	What more can we do?  Is it possible to cause sufficient legal
	hassles for the owner BEFORE being injured?  Will the
	police investigate a report of an unchained dog?

    I've alway been sort-of afraid of dogs, so I guess my inclination
    would be to try to get away, but from what I've read, I'm wondering
    if it's better to STOP and then reach for the water bottle/whatever?
    At least you won't total the bike.  
    
    Opinions?
    					kathy

    I'm not afraid of dogs.  I often have my dog run along with me when
    I ride off-road.  If you want to stop most any dog, simply dismount
    from the bicycle and firmly tell the dog to go home.  You see, dogs
    are pretty stupid and they don't know what these bicycle things
    are, but they do know what humans are, humans are something dogs
    MUST obey.  I beleive Tom Cubertson once wrote that this was the
    method of choice and he went on further to say that if you hit or
    spray dogs then they will just hate these bicycle things more than
    they do now.
    
    Joe

    I agree with reply 4. If a dog get too close get off of your bike
    and confront the dog with an angry and loud "GO HOME". Sound like
    you mean it! Even if the dog does not leave and continues to bother
    you, walk away BUT DO NOT TAKE YOUR EYES OFF OF THE PEST. When you
    are far enough away from whatever the dog thinks it is protecting
    it will leave you alone. Or, if you can tell someone is home make
    a whole lot of noise out in the street untill the owner has to 
    come out to get the dog. If that happens enough times the owner may
    get tired of it and start to keep the dog restrained.
    
    
    							Bob

    I think that you should have some sympathy with the dog - after
    all he/she doesn't know what public property is !! The dog is simply
    following its instinct to protect "its" territory. If the dog
    growls,barks or snarls it is scared of you - assert your authority
    and it will go home (note that I did NOT say it wasn't going to
    bite you I said it was scared....).
    
    Any way to the point - the onus I feel is on the owner a) to control
    the dog and b) to treat it kindly so that it doesn't chase people.
    
    So don't hit the dog - hit the owner with your pump !!!!!
    
    Paul - a dog owning cyclist...

    re. .6   Ohh, the poor big doogie doesn't know any better so he
    can chew on my arm, that's OK.  In a word, BULLS**T !!  Any dog,
    person, or whatever who attacks me on a public road is going to
    be dealt with severely as in 'self defence'.  I will use whatever
    means are available to me to protect my health and safety.  The
    person/dog/whatever has forfited all protection by attacking me
    (well, the person must be kinda serious before I can kill them).
       Paul, I hope you train your dog to stay off public roads, or
    at least not molest bikes. If not, you may suffer the concequences
    some day.   - Chris, a cat owner.

    Wow, this is getting to be a hot and heavy topic.
    
    Re. 6.  A Dog isn't going to chew on your arm.  The best a dog has
    ever managed to do with me is nip (unsuccessfully) at my heels.
    
    I was out riding at lunch today and 2 dogs came at me.  I stopped
    and barked out, BTW barking is an important part of the of it, anyway
    the dogs immediately stopped coming at me and in a couple of seconds
    they were quiet and confused.  They started to wander into the road
    so I used my bike and my voice to herd them over to the side.  They
    quietly went off.
    
    Moral: Dogs fear people and will generally try to obey.
    
    BTW Owners who leave dogs out loose can be liable for the damage
    they cause I have entered another note to that effect
    
    Joe, a dog and cat owner, and they get along fine

    In answer to the question regarding "official" help for loose dogs:
    NO. Unless they have attacked.
    I have not been able to get the local "pound" or humane society
    to help with dogs that are on my commute.
    
    *Some* dogs react well to the voice commands and psychological warfare
    tactics. There are enough out there that have not been trained or
    even ever dominated by a human to cause sufficient trouble. 
    
    I do not believe "they wouldn't actually hurt a person". I have
    been bitten once severely and nipped by dogs trying for more during
    my many years of cycling. I also personally know of at least one
    death caused by a dog charging a bike. She was of racer caliber
    so lack of bike handling skills was not a problem.
    
    I also don't go for this "doggie doesn't know better" bit. After
    many years of hating dogs I bowed under to pressure from wife and
    kids to get one. I have found out how easy it is to train and restrain
    a dog and I am now *less* sympathetic to roaming/uncontrolled  dogs
    and their owners.     
    
    Personally, I have found a small squeeze bottle with a flip up nozzle
    filled with full strength Ammonia to be a very effective short range
    deterent.
    
    Thom (who now has a well behaved Sheltie that is a delight to be
    around.)
    
    

RE: .6

.7 has my 100% support.  I am a dog owner, runner and cyclist.  But
I have enough responsibility to NOT let my dog get loose and bother
people.  If he does get loose, and gets hurt, I'll be heartbroken, 
but it'll serve me right.  And I'm a lot more worried about him getting
hit by a car than a bike pump.

Sure, the dog doesn't know better...but shouldn't one expect a little
more out of its human owner?

I keep him restrained for the benefit of the dog, others, and myself.

.jim

    Please, before this discussion gets out of hand, be sure that
    you've looked over notes 122.0-.38.  Much of what has been
    mentioned so far was covered in detail there.
    
    MATT

    
    Lets face it, we're all pretty much in violent aggrement with each
    other.  We all don't like to be chased by dogs (or bulls?).  Each
    of us have our own way of handling the situation.  For those of
    you who say that the dog probably won't bite.... That's not the
    issue.  What if while you're watching the dog you ride into a tree.
    Or what if the dog runs out in front of you. That's quite a crash!!
    The fault is with the owners!!!  If you smack the dog with your
    pump, or spray it with mace, eventually the owner will do something
    about the situation.....
    
    I doubt if the "authorities" could care less......
    
    If you hit a dog there is a possibilty that it will hate bikes even
    more than it already does!  Who cares!!!!  It already isn't on my
    christmas list!  If it gets hit enough times it will learn that
    bikes hurt and to leave them alone!!!
    
    I tried to resist this note as long as possible.....  I just couldn't
    resist.....   
    
    Stew

    Dogs have have an instinct for self-preservation, as well as a
    territorial one.

    I had been bothered by one unleashed dog on a regular route, and
    finally one day got in a good crack on its head (while the owners
    in the front yard passively watched); he had nearly managed to bite
    me, which was why he was close enough for striking.

    Well, the next time I was by there and he was out, he watched me
    from the yard, his ears alert.

    But he didn't come out and chase.

    For the most part I've just sprinted away, and dogs have not been a
    major problem.  I had much more difficulty with them when out jogging,
    actually...

    - Jim

    In my younger days I had a paper route for a few years.  Dogs in
    my town were a major problem.  I was nipped at countless times and
    severely bitten twice, with one time being rushed to the hospital
    because of heavy bleeding.  I have to admit that most of these 
    irresponsible dog owners were real low lifes who couldn't care less
    about what their dogs were up to.
    
    It really is too bad that the dog has to be punished because of
    its low life owner, but that's the way it is.  I don't have anything
    against animals.  Nevertheless, when a dog is coming after me and
    appears to be vicious, I will hit the dog with my pump as hard as
    I can.
    
    Is it reasonable to expect a bicyclist to dismount every time a
    dog comes after him?   That can be a real pain in the butt!  Also,
    contrary to some of the replies here, I have found that if I give
    a dog a good whack, it seldom comes after me the next time I'm on
    the route.
    
    Regards,
    Denis   
    
    

For all the times I don't want to see them, one of the sure signs of
spring is when the dogs are all out, whether tied up or not.  Right
now I'm watching for the one on the corner of Ridge and Old Ridge. 
Then there's those two little tiny suckers on Wilson Hill Rd (watch
out or I'll sick my cat on you!)

ed

    to .8  "A dog won't bite you in the arm".  Again, BULLS*@T !!
    I ride a recumbent.  I have been bitten on my right arm near
    the elbow.  Right thru a medium-weight GoreTex jacket, wool 
    turtleneck, and poly underwear (it was a cool rainy day). 
    	I don't want to hurt dogs. I'd love to have a Star-Trek type
    stun gun that I could zap the varmits with when they get within
    10 feet.  But I'll do anything I can, including running them into
    parked cars, to fend them off.  As I said, I'd like to try noise
    makers that go POW when you throw them against the pavement. After
    all, I'm a noise control engineer.  - Chris

    Chris & others,
    
    Some of you might want to try one of the hand held air horns that
    are sold for small boat owners.  They are small and light and
    inexpensive, as I recall, AND LOUD.  The ones that I have seen &
    heard are about the size of a can of shaving cream (and about as
    heavy).  
    
    dr
    

    re .17	There's an "ultrasonic" version of it too, sold for
    bikers and runners.  I only saw it used once and it was VERY effective,
    once the rider that had it had turned around to come back and rescue
    his wife who did not have it (Yeah, I wasn't at the front that day,
    preferring the company of<never mind>.  It has an audible frequency
    component too, which is recognizably "dog whistle band", but I
    understand its the higher frequencies that puzzle them.  It puzzled
    some of us too, we didn't realize why all three dogs had suddenly shut
    up and were gazing around them in a bewildered state. {OK, Mass is a
    bewildering State} 
    
    Reg 
    
    	I don't know, it just seems that arming oneself with all this
    stuff makes it hardly worthwhile to ride at all, might just as well
    stay home and ride the rollers all summer.

    
    
    Oh my this is really getting serious isn't it......
    
    re. .7 Please read my note again - the owner is at fault every time
    	   and deserves what he/she gets. By the way MY dog has NEVER been
    	   on a public road (or any other public place for that matter)
    	   on his own in his nine years of life - nor has he ever bitten
    	   anybody who didn't ask for it. I also own two cats and we
    	   all manage to get on together with everybody in the area
    	   including runners/cyclists.                               
    
    		Paul 
    
    		

    From the Chicago Tribune, Saturday, March 19, 1988
    
    Dog's owner charged in bicyclist's death
    
     ROUND ROCK, Tex. (AP) -
     The owner of two dogs was charged with criminally negligent homicide
    after the dogs chased a bicyclist who fell and died of head injuries.
     Candelario Guerrero, 45, was charged Thursday in the death of Donald
    Carlyle Westbrook, 41.

    That sounds very unfortunate...  everyone is surely in agreement
    that owners should be liable for unleashed dogs.  However, I presume
    the cyclist was not wearing a helmet.

    - Jim

    re .21	You can also presume that people who get shot to death
    rarely wear a kevlar vest.
    
    	R
    

    Re the boat horn (0.17),  Spag's has a VERY LOUD hand held horn
    for about $8.  Range is supose to be one mile.  Size of the canister
    is such that it will fit nicely in a water bottle holder.  
    
    This horn is LOUD, loud enough to wake up the dog owner (or interrupt
    his/her tv program) when his mutt starts after me when I'am on my
    midnight ride!  Its also gets the attention of drivers that pull out
    in front of you or cut you off  (saves wear & tear on pumps...)
    
    Bring on the dogs!  
   
    

    Having been chased several times this year already, and having an
    ordeal last year (see 122.26,.28), I stopped at the Lancaster Vet and
    asked what is best.  The vet said Halt is probably the most effective
    thing on the market and does not permanently harm the animal, but that
    a squirtgun and plain old water might get the job done.  I told
    him I tried those but it just made the dog wet.  Neither of us thought
    about an air horn.  He said not to use bleach as this could cause
    permanent occular damage.
    
    So I'll try an airhorn before looking for a sale on Clorox.
    
    _KB

NAIROBI, KENYA--A hippopotamus emerged from a sewage pond and attacked
a bicyclist in the capital, a newspaper reported. In Embakasi, on the
capital's eastern edge near Nairobi National Park, a 35-year-old
man riding past a sewage plant was bitten on the head, buttocks, and
thigh by a hippopotamus that emerged from the waste water, the DAILY
NATION said. The man was reportedly hospitalized in serious condition.
 
	--Austin Cycling Notes, May 1988
	  (Austin Cyclin Association, Austin TX 78763)

    Re -.1, and we think we have problems.........