Conference noted::bicycle

    re .0	Summat's wrong !   I don't know who's trueing 'em for
    you, but if they know what they're doing they should sense any wild
    spots and tell you the rim is junk, else they don't know their trade !
    Even if its at the weld..... ?????, Nah, I'm also somewhat at a
    loss.  Don't wish to tarnish anyone's reputation, so tell me by mail
    who your wheel person is, I "*MIGHT*" be able to recommend a better
    one.

    	Reg
    

    
    
       early in the season I was in a crash in the brodie mountain road
    race.  the result of this crash was a rear wheel resembled something
    closer to a potato chip than a bicycle wheel.
       I brought the wheel in to the shop that sponsors my team (bicycle
    alley of worcester) and had a new rim (MA40) and spokes installed.
       the first time I road the wheel it went completly out of true
    and I had to spend 15 minutes to true the wheel myself.
       The second time out the wheel went out of true again but a little
    less severe this time. by the 5th ride and 4th truing session the
    wheel had straightened out perfectly and i have not touched it in
    over 2500 very hard miles.
       So remember that going out of true 3 or 4 times at first is just
    a sign of wearing in the spokes and the rim. and also it is not
    wise to replace a rim without also replacing all the spokes. 36
    spokes only cost me 5 bucks.
    
    
                                                    john c.

    
    Re: -2
    
    Bull. Any good wheelbuilder will prestress the wheel MANY TIMES
    before mounting the tire to the rim. There is no reason other than
    INCOMPETENCE for having to "break in" the wheel while on the road.
    Slight deflections will happen after a few hundred hard miles, but
    not anything that requires going back to the truing stand for.
    
    Re: .0
    
    How large a deflection is the flat spot? More than a couple of mm?
    It's extremely hard to get much less than 1 or 2 mm deflection in
    the radial direction on *any* wheel. Is it over the valve hole or
    the seam?
    
    The GP4 is a heck of a strong rim. Assuming they used top quality
    spokes, the blame is rest on the builder.
    
    CdH
    

    
    Sorry Reg....
    
    CdH
    

    Get a new wheel builder.  The GP4 is a tank wheel.  I have a pair
    of them, weigh 175lbs, ride rough mountain roads and only do minor truing
    to the rear wheel every 4-500 miles.  If the wheel is stressed well,
    you shouldn't have to do major re-truing.  I think sometimes, wheel
    builders are under a lot of pressure to produce many wheels fast.
    As a result, they get sloppy.
    
    Good luck.     
    

    Each wheel was built by a different builder in a different shop. The
    second one (Ambrosio) I bought used at Laughing Alley bike shop.  When
    I brought it back with this flat spot after only owning it a week and a
    half, the mechanic was hardly apologetic.  He seemed to feel that I had
    done something wrong.  I'll get it back this evening - let's see
    what he says...
    
    The GP4 was a factory wheel that a mechanic at International Cycles
    "adjusted" by hand when I bought it to get it absolutely true.  At his
    suggestion, I brought it back to be checked after a 100 miles and it
    needed little or no adjustment.   Months later, the wheel warped
    way out of line (no loose spokes) and I took it in to the Bicycle
    Exchange in Cambridge.  The mechanic there diagnosed the problem
    as a flat spot and made no promises about the wheel staying true.
    Sure enough, though he managed to true it perfectly, it went again
    in a couple of days.  The problem is not at the seam or at the hole.
    
    Stainless spokes - 14 gauge on the GP4s, maybe 15 gauge on the
    Ambrosias...  Campy hubs on the Ambrosias, Superbe on the GP4s...
    I'm still stumped!
    
    MATT

    It does sound inexcusable.  I once made a set of wheels using Super
    Champion Gentleman rims, stressed them the way I'd had recommended,
    and they didn't need touching up for ages.  If a beginner like myself
    could make a set of wheels that stayed true...

    I'm surprised that the factory wheel went out - those are usually pretty
    tight.  Maybe there was a manufacturer defect in the rim, or the rim
    was damaged and they built the wheel with it anyway.

    It is stories like this that convince me to continue to do work
    on my car, bicycle, etc. myself - there are way too many incompetents
    out there.

    - Jim

    
    Most of the factory wheels I've seen are built way too loose. Matt,
    it sounds like there were too many hands on the wheel, and not one
    of them built it to begin with. Chalk it up as a learning experience.
    Have the wheel relaced with new spokes and a new GP4 by someone
    who has the time and patience to do a good job right at the start.
    Then don't mess with it, other than *slight* touch up work.
    
    Good luck,
    
    CdH
    

    
    	OK, I'll recommend Paul Randazzo.  He takes the time and trouble
    to tension the wheel three or four times before letting it out of
    the shop.  
    
    	Worst troubles I ever had with flat spots was when I finally
    broke down and bought a free wheel bike, jumping railroad tracks
    requires an entirely different technique than with a fixed.  Three
    years later and I *STILL* can't get the really long jumps that seem so
    easy on a fixed, I've sorta given up on railroad tracks now.  Errr,
    reason I mentioned this ?  just wondering if you're doing anything
    different; new routes ?, new potholes ?, new tricks ?, more drafting
    and not seeing the potholes in time ? 
    
    	Reg
    

    Now, for us do it yourselfers:
    
    How do you stress or tension a wheel after building, or trueing?
    
    Glen

    	Stress DURING building.  Grab parallel pairs of spokes and 
    squeeze them all through the process.  This starts to hurt the
    hands as you bring the tension up, though.  That's the way I was
    taught at the Bicycle Exchange.  Are there other reliable methods?
    
    John

	If you are planning to build your own wheels, then by all means get a
	copy of _The_Bicycle_Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt.  It's hardcover book with
	a white cover that you can find in most good bike shops.

	The book discusses most aspects of wheelbuilding from a mechanical
	engineering perspective but nicely avoids the engineering jargon.
	When describing how a wheel deforms under load, it includes
	measurements and finite element modeling results rather than the vague
	descriptions that I've seen in other books.

	It (like reply 11) recommends squeezing groups of four spokes together
	to release stresses.  Leather gloves are good for this.

	-Jeff Bell

    I will strongly second the recommendation for "The Bicycle Wheel"...

    It was recommended to me too, and my first wheels were a success - I'm
    not too bad with mechanical things, but would never have thought of
    the many small points he goes into in the book.

    I didn't mean to be misunderstood in my earlier reply about factory
    wheels - they could be tighter, but you should be able to buy a set
    and not expect to have to mickey-mouse around with retruing after
    so short a time.  Since they're machine built the consistancy is
    pretty reasonable.

    - Jim

    re .10 & .12 (I think ?)	Another way of stressing the wheel as
    it is being built is to take a tool (i.e. screwdriver)  with a fat
    handle and push the handle down into the spoke crosses.  This is
    somewhat easier on the hands than the spoke squeeze trick and its
    easier to be consistent when your hands don't hurt so much.
    
    	R
    

    	Reg,
    
    	What does AEIFS stand for?
    
    	Scott

    re .15	Well, Y'had t'ask didn't Ya ?
    
    
    	First clue follows:-
    
    
    
    
    	First and last letters are the same as what is probably the
    most feared acronym of out time....,  unfortunately the rest is
    *REAL EASY* to guess now.
    
    	Reg
    

    
    Reg, I still don't get it.
    
    The way I stress wheels:
    
    Place it on the ground on the skewer end, then press around the
    rim in even amounts, over each cross of the spokes. Then flip it
    over and do it again. Repeat this process until the spokes stop
    making noise. Retrue the wheel, checking dish. Then restress, reture,
    restress.
    
    All this is done AFTER lacing, dishing, tensioning and rough truing.
    Otherwise you may stretch the spokes too much and ruin the wheel.
    
    The Brandt book is great for the beginner, a good place to start.
    
    CdH
    

    re .17	Sounds like another good way.  You bring out the point
    that the creaking is an indication of spokes settling in and that
    when the procedure is repeated and the creaking stops then you're
    about there.  If the wheel creaks at all for the first 4 or 5
    revolutions when it is ridden then its a sure sign that it was not
    properly stressed (kinda like my home built wheels used to :^-)

    	Reg
    

    This discussion on wheels has been enlightning as to the problem
    I am having with a set of wheels I picked up at Bike Nashbar on 
    Saturday. I was going to try tubulars and had gone in there to get 
    hubs rims and spokes. I was shown a set of built wheels - shimano
    600 hubs, DT spokes, aryra rims, and national panaracer 280 kevlar
    tires - for $48.00. Too good to be true; I thought so. I took my
    new wheels and a new freewheel(which is another story) went home
    and glued the tires on. A few hours later I wanted to try my new
    wheels so I went for a quick spin. When I leaned on the bike I heard
    some creaking from the wheels for the first few revolutions then
    it stopped. Guess what, the wheels are out of true. I talked with
    Nashbar today and it was explained to me that the wheels are machine
    built and need fine tuning. I think it was real nice of them to
    tell me that when I had already explained that I was new to biking
    and didn't know much about wheel building.
    
    paul    

    re .19
    
    	That's a decent deal.  The sales droid may not know the
    differences, machine built doesn't have to mean not pre_stressed.
    If I bought for this price I would expect to stress them myself.
    
    	I may pick a quiet day at Nashbar, look the wheels over, squeeze
    a few (*ALL*) spoke crossings and ask to see how true they are on
    a stand, etc....,  $50 for a set of tubs, can't hardly go wrong, eh ?,
    'specially if I can get them stressed and trued

    	Reg
    

    
    I ordered a set of "built wheels from Nashbar a few months ago.  
    Mavic GP4's with specialized hubs.  They were garbage.  They were 
    constantly out of true, and I finally had to go to a shop and have
    them rebuilt.  You'd be better off asking for all the pieces, and
    having them built by a reputable person.  The price is hard to beat, 
    but the aggravation isn't worth the savings.  
    
    You don't know when it's gonna hit, but one day you'll notice
    yourself getting dropped or working extra hard, and you'll look
    down and see the wheel wobbling away...  I've cursed myself for
    being cheap more than once due to those wheels.
    
    Have them checked by a pro.
    
    JD
    

I use the method mentioned by Chris for stressing wheels - flexing the 
rims. When spoke nipples get really tight (i.e. when the spoke is quite 
tight) the friction between nipple and the spoke threads can cause the 
spoke to twist when the nipple is tightened further. Flexing the rims 
allows the spokes to "unwind" since the tension is temporarily released 
on the spoke. The creaking sound (whether pre-stressing the wheel or 
riding it the first time) is the sound of the spokes unwinding ....

                                        ken

    I too have had the experience of trouble with my NASHASH wheels.
    This is one of the reasons I have been somewhat disapionted with
    my Road LP.  The best wheels I have gotten mailorder I got from
    Performance about a year ago.  These wheels are still pretty true
    and round.  The best wheel builder I know of locally is the guy
    at Open Air, name escapes me at the moment, but his hours are ones
    that even a banker would envy.  BTW I weigh 188+ and was coached
    some time ago to use my weight, in other I don't spin a lot I slug
    it out when climbing hills.
    
    Joe

    The method mentioned in .17 is what I would have intuitively expected
    to use, but in Brandt's book, he recommends against the method, claiming
    that it has the risk of not equally stressing all the spokes, whereas
    gripping the spokes in pairs you can get them all the same.  However,
    he does say it is effective in releasing spoke twist, 'accompanied by
    reassuring sound...'

    It's possibly somewhat academic though, since someone aware of the need
    for stressing and who has a feel for mechanical work should be able to
    make great wheels with any of these methods.

    - Jim

> effective in releasing spoke twist, 'accompanied by reassuring sound...'

	Bladed spokes not only have an aerodynamic advantage and are
	easier to replace (hooked heads) but will also show twisting
	when it occurs.  That way the wheel builder can "unwind" the
	twisted spokes as they are being tensioned.

    	Hmmm, I gotta go do some 'rifmatic of this.  I've always assembled
    wheels with nipples that have been sitting in oil, if I could hack
    up the math I'd show Y'all about film strength vs spoke tension
    and prove that spoke unwinding is a myth.  I've felt it when trueing
    old or junkie wheels, but I just back off the spoke key to let the
    twist out, and theres still creaking when I stress the wheel.  This
    leads me to believe that the creaking comes from somewhere other
    than spokes unwinding, though I don't know where...
    
    	Reg
    

     re: .0
           rear wheel flat spots
           
           Although we have much maligned several *different*
           wheel builders that have the *same* problem on one
           person's wheel, I don't think we have questioned
           Matt's riding technique enough to clear that as
           a source of the problem. 
           
           In my extensive experience with multitudes of wheels,
           I have personally found that flat spots in wheels
           **that were round when installed on the bike**
           are usually caused by rider error. (It is open
           season on wheel builders for side to side "wobbles"
           and loose spokes:-)   
           
           Matt, or anybody, if you have always used the "pinch"
           method of tire pressure checking-- throw away your
           thumb:-) and use a gage or pump with gage for awhile.
           Using maximum rated tire pressure is critical for
           the well being of your rims! I have found that
           people that have not first calibrated their fingers
           with extensive use of gages consistently *way under
           inflate* their tires. Also "I just checked the
           pressure last week" is not sufficient.
           
           You also do not say how long you have been seriously
           riding light weight equipment. Learning how to
           avoid hitting bumps/holes or weight shift and
           light rideing over the unavoidable unfortunately only
           comes with time (and rims:-{ ).  A more experienced
           rider can safely ride over obstacles that would
           total a less experienced rider. It doesn't take
           an "accident" to trash a rim. (A flat spot is also
           the most difficult damage to *effectively* correct.)
           
           With limited information to go on, these are a
           couple of my guesses as to possible contributing
           factors.  I hope they help.
           
           Thom

    re .27	Well, I kinda asked in .9 if he'd changed anything else,
    routes, closer drafting, etc.  He did say it was the wheels, didn't
    seem to imply that he was riding lightweight stuff off road.
    I *ASSUMED* that he doesn't carry all his weight on his tailbone.
    
    	Reg
    

    RE: .26
    
    I use a Silca pump to get my tires up to at least 110psi before every
    ride.  Tubulars tend to demand that kind of attention. Still, you're
    right to question my technique.  If my riding style destroys wheels,
    it's no use blaming builders. 
    
    However, even at my 190 lbs, I've been lead to believe that GP4 rims
    are tough enough to take it. Many times in the past, I've ridden much
    weaker 27" Rigida [sic] rims OFFROAD cyclocross-style without damaging
    or misaligning them. I doubt I do anything much harder on my road bike.

    Like everyone else, I hit potholes, frost heaves, railroad crossings,
    and loose stones. I avoid what I can.  Can anyone suggest an
    alternative approach to New England roads?  
    
    Or maybe my expectations of the quality of racing/training equipment
    are too high - when I pay for it, it sure seems expensive enough to
    justify those expectations! 
    
    Status Report: After fifty miles, the Ambrosio wheel seems to be
    holding - it's a little out of true, but nothing like it was after
    the first couple of rides.  I'm ready to buy a new GP4 rim for the
    other set, and make learning how to build it a winter project. Who
    knows?  Though it cost me a few dollars, this experience may make
    a better mechanic out of me...

    re.29
    
    Matt,
    
    It sounds as though your inflation and riding technique can be
    eliminated as a variable.  I think you are taking the right approach
    by learning to build your own wheels. I think you will find it to
    be a good feeling riding on your own wheels, knowing how much care
    went into making them.  You will soon join the rest of us wheel
    building "snobs" in not quite fully trusting "someone else's" wheels.
    :-)
                                                               
    Thom
    

    As I rounded a corner in heavy traffic yesterday morning, I 
    discovered a pothole straight in front of me.  There was nothing
    I could do but jump it -- my rear wheel caught its lip at
    about 15 mph.  
    
    Crunch!  My brake pads scraped hard against the wheel, now 
    buckled into a permanent oval.  Another wheel gone!
    
    I have not one, but two rear hubs now waiting to be laced up
    to new wheels.  This time, I don't want to mess around -- I
    realize that potholes are a fact of life in Boston, so I'm
    shooting for something INDESTRUCTIBLE.  
    
    Ambrosio Montreals definitely weren't enough.  Even Mavic GP4s 
    weren't enough.  Any recommendations?  I've heard that 
    Campy Record Strada rims are tough as nails; Matrix ISO rims
    look strong.  Weight and aerodynamics don't interest me 
    anymore -- I want a racing rim my car could ride on.
    
    MATT

    >    anymore -- I want a racing rim my car could ride on.

    I have heard that there's a shop in Indianapolis, called Gasoline
    Alley, that sells Racing Rims that might fit your specs.
    You'll have to give away quite a bit on weight, I'm sure, and I
    would call ahead to be sure they have your size in stock.
    
    I heard that Reg swears by them.               
    
    
    
    (Wasn't that you I heard swearing the other day, Reg?)
                             
    
    
                                     8-}
                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=g=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    You could make a set of 40 spoke tandem-grade wheels though that'll
    require new hubs (sigh).  But I think that it would always be possible
    to damage a rim if it's hit hard enough.  Obviously you have to tension
    the wheel properly.

    I've lost a few wheels due to such things as you describe (like
    swerving away from a vehicle that abruptly turned right toward me -
    into a curb!) and have just resigned myself to live with the problem.
    Every couple of years it seems it happens.  That's how I learned to build
    wheels... 

    I don't know if this is sensible, but if a wheel *were* strong enough,
    then an impact could damage a frame it seems.  Maybe it's best to have
    a reasonably strong wheel that's still somewhat comfortable to ride
    and will 'give' in the event of disaster.

    - Jim

    The Laughing Alley bike shop in Allston sold me a pair of Mavic
    SSCs--as far as I can tell, these used to be Mavic's best.
    (They're blue, 395gr, and noticeably tougher than the old 
    Ambrosios.)  I built one up at home myself (my first ever!), 
    using the bike frame as a truing stand.  
    
    In the process, I discovered a couple of reasons why the old
    wheel was so fragile: 1) It was a 32 HOLE wheel.  2) The spokes
    were 15 gauge.  Since he didn't have any 32-hole rims in stock
    Jim (the manager/owner(?) of the shop) traded my 32-hole rear
    hub for a 36-hole model.  (This kind of flexiblity is rare, and
    appreciated!)
   
    After a tough 75 mile ride on Sunday, the new wheel only needed
    quarter-turn adjustments to five spokes.  You could see my grin
    from 50 miles away....

I would keep away from Matrix rims in general.  I have never heard anything 
good about them, just plenty of gripes from use.net. 

Try Rigida Scores - expensive but they seem tough.  Of course out here in 
Hudson the roads are better.  There must be some advantage to living in the 
sticks.

cbs

Are these questions TOO DIFFICULT, or what?

Rod

I don't think it's a matter that the questions are too difficult.  I
think it's that the questions have been answered once or twice by a
few people and they just do not feel like being redundant.  I'll try to
be brief and be the redundant one.

Besides, in the hot weather we'd rather be riding or enjoying an Ice
Cream or a dip in the pool.

If you're going to spend time and money installing a new rim add a few
more bucks (~$10 per wheel) and get some new spokes the old ones have
done you some decent service but have seen their share of stress and
deserve a retirement.  This statement might stir up some differences
of opinion.

I always install one side then the other, most articles I've read have
advised this.  (in fact, I cannot think of any that advise otherwise.)
I would install the n that go this way, then the n that go that way,
then turn the wheel over and repeat.

ed

    Another method if you are new to wheel building is to first loosen
    all of the spokes on the original wheel.  Place the new rim, must
    be the same rim or take the same length spokes, next to the wheel
    with the valve in the same position.  Simple remove one spoke at
    a time and place in new rim.
    
    steve

If you do as in .39 and it's not the same type/model rim but does use
the same length spokes you have to check one more thing.  Check that
the spoke holes are offset from the rims center line in the same way.
That is, look at a rim from the other side it will look like:

----------------------------------------
  O      O      O      O      O   < spoke holes
              O < valve hole
     O      O      O      O    < spoke holes
----------------------------------------

Sometimes you get a rim that's opposite, like:

----------------------------------------
    O      O      O      O      O   < spoke holes
             O < valve hole
 O      O      O      O      O    < spoke holes
----------------------------------------

Then you cannot do as in 39.

    Thanks for the replies. I accept that your answers have been touched
    on before, but this extra detail is helpful.
    
    Anyway, it's not hot here (Reading UK). 
    
    Rod

    	Anyone have a wheel building video that they would like
    to share.  I promise to return it within the week.
    
    						Jerry

Paul at Category I has a video made at the NECA a while back.  Whether
or not he would lend it or has it in the shop, I don't know.

ed

I'd be willing to donate my vhs camera and taping services if someone
can hold a wheel building demo. Maybe we could go further and make up
a set of 'lectures'. Then circulate the tape(s) around to noters who are
interested. We would need some of you more advanced repairers out there
to hold the sessions. 

Just a Thought
Mano

    re .43	He loaned it to me once, said he'd appreciate feedback,
    but he didn't.

    re 462.44
    	I like the idea of building a repair video library to assist
    neophites that would like to tinker, but don't want to spend a lot
    of time learning the *wrong way* to do things (like myself).  I'll 
    volunteer to do the first chapter on repairing a flat (Touring
    Clincher), and then making the tape available to the next contributor,
    with the stipulation that I get the updated copy back each time,
    until we get a full tape on wheel repair topics.  I'll lend the
    tape out after I'm supplied with a blank VHS copy from the requestor,
    with a one week time line.  Does this sound workable and is there
    enough interest to make a complete tape this way?
    							Jerry

    re .44, .46

    	I'd definitely like to see such a tape, but (also definitely)
    don't have enough knowledge to help make it.
    							Jeff

>                         -< I'd like to see the tape >-
>    	I'd definitely like to see such a tape, but (also definitely)
>    don't have enough knowledge to help make it.
Same here!  Speak up everyone (who wants to see and learn from these tapes)
before the volunteers come to their senses!	8*)

-parthi

    A one week time line?  Obviously, you have more faith in the US mail
    than I do!  Anyway, I'd certainly look forward to it, too.

    I've learned a lot from this note, enough to encourage me to build a
    few wheels that haven't broken yet. But there's one thing to be aware
    of that I don't remember seeing mentioned here, probably because it's
    just too obvious. 
    
    It's simply that when you're lacing up a wheel, you must be careful to
    position the valve hole in one of the big gaps between spokes. That is,
    the two spokes immediately beside the valve hole must lean away from
    the hole rather than towards it. This means that when the wheel is
    built, you'll have maximum ease of access to the valve with a pump. 
    
    I wasn't aware of this consideration until fairly recently with the
    result that I've built two wheels with a spoke crossing above the
    valve, which makes it difficult to get at the valve with a pump. When I
    realised what I'd done I felt pretty stupid, but the wheels are
    satisfactory otherwise so I'm not going to rebuild them. 
    
    Rod

    The books usually make a big deal of valve hole posiitoning.  I think
    some even call rims Type A or Type B depending upon whether the holes
    are (S for Spoke hole, V for Valve):
    
        S       S             S       S
          V       ...   or          V      ...
    S       S                     S       S
    
    And then they give the lacing steps as a function of Type A or Type B
    just as a cookbook might for some recipe variations.
    
    I prefer to lace the wheel by forming a mental image of how it must
    look when I get done and then start.
    
    (I forget which of the above is A or B.)
    
    ed

    If you're "just" changing the rim (not building new wheels), and the
    spoke length is the same (ie., same type of rim or dumb luck) you can
    use this trick: 
    
    Tape the new rim side by side to the old rim, lining up the valve hole
    to the same position. Undo the spokes in the old rim and move them one
    by one to the new rim. When complete, remove the tape and follow
    through with the usual tightening and truing process. This can cut your
    rebuild time substantially. 

    
    
    
    I just purchased a set of aero wheels from Nashbar. I did not specify
    lacing.... I just assumed that the would be a standard 3 cross. 
    The rear wheel was a standard 3 cross, but the front wheel 
    was radial laced. I was quite surprised... and concerned that this 
    might not be as strong as a 3 cross. So what's the deal with radial
    lacing... is it less strong? Will I have to retrue this wheel more 
    often... or be more careful when riding? I've looked around this 
    and cycle_racing and could not find any notes on lacing patterns and 
    their strengths. I can certainly send this wheel back if their are
    strong opinions against them for normal riding...
    
    
    Opinions?
    
    
    doug
     

    
    It really depends on what you are riding them for and how well you
    believed them to have been built. If you are going to do heavy riding
    where you will carry a load (touring, commuting) or if you are on roads
    that are notorious for their potholes, then I would consider changing
    them If they are used for TTing, then I would be more than happy to
    keep them as they are.
    
    Graham.

    
    
    I am just going to ride them.... about 1200-1500 miles per year, 
    roads are generally in good shape. I weigh about 170-175 and this
    is a 32 hole radial spoked wheel. 
    I'll probably just ride the wheel anyway, and rebuild for $12 if it
    becomes too much of a hassle. 
    
    
    doug
    

     I have a radially laced wheel and use it for TT'g only. They do not
    hold up as well as triple cross and certainly aren't as strong. They
    do go out of true very easily. 
    
     I live in a an area with so-so roads and wouldn't even dream of using
    them for training or riding. In fact, I put on about 16 miles a week
    between the TT (12 mi.) and warming up (4 mi.)... I've had to true it
    already.
    
     BTW I have a Campy Omega with 28 spokes (oval DT's 14gua.) on an A/C hub.
    
        Chip

    I'd send it back.  Radial lacing is really designed to reduce 
    wind drag and weight.  In the process, they lose strength 
    (otherwise, all wheels would be of this style :-)  The different
    crossed spoke patterns are designed to distribute the load of
    riding and road hazards over a larger section of rim and a larger
    number of spokes.  Radial laced wheels lack this advantage, and 
    therefore are inherently weaker.  I would only use a radial laced
    wheel for TT's, and only if the road is smooth.  You'd be happier
    and much safer with 3-cross.

    
    
    
    You guys have convinced me to send it back. This will be my primary
    front wheel and really has to hold up. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    
    
    doug
    

    In defense of Nashbar, you did order "an aero wheel."  If they
    take it back, they are being nice-guys for a change.
    
    (note that I'm not very fond of their wheels.)
    
    ed

    
>>    (note that I'm not very fond of their wheels.)
    
	This would persuade me to take it back. Radial wheels need to be
    built to a much higher quiality than 3-cross and if there is any doubt
    in their ability, then take it back.
    
    Graham.

    >    In defense of Nashbar, you did order "an aero wheel."  If they
    >    take it back, they are being nice-guys for a change.
    
    
    This is perhaps my fault for not specifically asking how they 
    build and aero wheel. Colorodo Cyclists and Performance both build
    "aero wheels" with a 3 cross , UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY REQUEST RADIAL
    LACING. Go into any bike shop and you will see the prebuild bikes with
    aero wheels with a standard 3 cross. In my estimation, it is a defacto
    standard to prebuild wheels in a 3 cross. In this case, I was wrong. 
    I also believe that if it is standard for Nashbar to radial lace an aero 
    front wheel, then they should state it in their catalog, and over the
    1-800 line. LOTS of people ride 3 cross aero wheels. 
    
    The question is not if they take it back, but if they will rebuild or
    swap it for me at no charge. I've bought a couple of sets of their wheels
    and have no significant problem with them.
    
    
    
    doug
    

    
    Unless I specifically requested something else, I would always expect
    3-cross. But, a good bike shop should always ask and advise what you
    need.
    
    Graham.

    yep, the teeny tiny one is the first one.
    
    ed

    
    
    ed, I guess some people refer to an "aero" wheel as a radially laced
    aero rim. Others refer to an "aero" wheel as any wheel built with
    and aero rim. Still others refer to an "aero" wheel as any wheel built
    to be aerodynamic (bladed spokes, aero rim, reduced spokes). I guess
    it's all a matter of semantics. 
    
    If I ordered a Campy Omega aero clincher on an Ultegra hub from 
    Colorado Cyclist, with no other instructions to the wheel builder,
    they would be built three cross. If I order the same thing from the 
    prebuilt wheel section of Nashbar ,I get the front wheel laced radially.
    (the customer road wheel section of CC states:"Wheels are laced
    three cross unless otherwise specified. Radial lacing is offered as
    a no-charge option on front wheels only."
    
    
    
    re: last: the cross at the flange counts as a cross.   
    
    
    doug