Conference noted::bicycle

    I was running along the Charles river Sunday at about the time 
    the Boston Bud Light was breaking up.  These two women rode past
    me slowly on these "funny bikes" with disk rear wheels and these
    wild handlebars.  My first thought was: these people must be RICH
    to afford such specialized machines.  In fact, based on the equipment
    I saw sauntering around Cambridge this weekend, I'd say that 
    Triathalons look like a rich (wo)man's sport compared to cycle racing.
    
    MATT
    

    
    
    ...and if you go to a golf course, you'll see some real hackers
    with Ping's, and if you go to a tennis court you'll see some fat
    housewife with a KevlarGraphiteSuper Racquet...  You don't have
    to qualify to buy nice stuff.  My dream bike is probably hanging
    in some loser's garage right now, tires flat, full of dust, with
    a total of 80 miles on it.

    The pro triathletes have had *great* success with these handlebars.
    So far, results show about a 7% improvement in times (4 mins for 25m).
    Course records are being shattered every race...
    
    

    The price of $200 is a total rip off! They are available for $40.
    International bicycle center in Allston has had them on order for
    a while.  Don't let those guys rob you just because demand is high,
    go where they'll sell you the Scott bars at an honest price.

    One more thing.  They are not crazy, they are AWESOME!!!!!!

    RE: .3
    
    Before anyone misinterprets what I said in the original note, Goodale's
    was not offering the handlebars, and were not offering to order
    them for me. The quoted price of $200 was a direct from SCOTT price.
    
    Directions to the shop mentioned in .3 would be appreciated. If
    the bars are not Scott's, but Scott Clones, I still would like a
    test ride.
    
    						DOMO ARIGATO
    		
    							* MAC *

    Can someone explain the difference between these "Crazy Scotts"
    and the bars I'm accustomed to seeing on sprint and time trial
    bikes---which leave the initial impression of upside-down conventional
    bars?
    
    John E.

    
    re .6
    
    They differ from regular bullhorn type bar in that the "horns" are
    at the stem, a couple of inches apart.  They also have elbow/forearm
    pads on the bars to allow you to get down real low.  Have you seen
    the pictures of Penseyres in RAAM?  Something like that.
    
    Scott's into downhill skiing.  It puts you in the same position
    as a downhill ski racer.  You're real low, and way over the bars,
    with you hands together under your chin.  Steerings done mostly
    with the elbows. It's a very aerodynamic position.

    Some have drops, some don't.  I only seen pros with them, I don't
    know what's prototype, and what's in production.

    I've just purchased (actually built) a new bike and have SCOTT bars.
    I've only sat on it because I'm waiting for my TIME shoes to come
    in (two weeks so far). I'm simply a mid-road semi-serious recreational
    rider. Citizen's races, time trials and just distances - co criterions.
    
    How do people like them? They look like a plus on all kinds of rides.
    I don't have any experience/this is an experiment! 
    
    Please let me know. Any special tricks on positioning, height of
    bar stem, relationship to seat height, etc...
    
    Help
    
    Chip

    Read the triathlon notes file.  They have a big discussion
    about Scott and Aero bars.
    
    Tri note   --   GLIVET;;TRIATHLON
    
    Ken
    

    
    I don't believe that the bars will be much benefit during citizens
    races.  They're not well suited to pack riding.
    
    For TT's they make quite a big difference!  They take a while to
    get used to also, so start out slow.
    
    As .9 said there is a discussion on position, and installing in
    Triathlon
    
    Stew

    I believe the Scott bars ARE beneficial in citizen races. One of
    my friends used them in citizen road races, and I have used Sark
    bars (aero) in these races as well.
    
    It's true that while you're in the pack, the scott bars offer no
    advantage, since you wouldn't be in the aero position. I would
    think that there is no disadvantage in the pack, other than a few
    more grams of weight.
    
    Where the aero bars really come in handy during road races is when
    you are trying to breakaway, or when you're taking a pull, or when
    you've been dropped & have to solo to rejoin the pack. 
    
    I nearly won a citizen race with a solo breakaway on the aero bars.
    The break would have been impossible without the bars, since I wasn't
    that much stronger than the other riders. With the aero bars, however,
    I almost made it! I lasted a few miles before the pack hunted me
    down within a mile of the finish. It was a blast, even though a
    bunch outsprinted me.
    
    Another instance when the aero bars came in handy was during the
    Hollis NH road race; twice around a 12.5 mile route. I got dropped
    by the pack during a mile+ climb near the end of the first lap.
    I had to solo to catch the pack. It took me about 8 miles, all alone,
    going as hard as I could on the aero bars, to catch them. I hung
    on as we went up the climb for the second time, and even managed
    to outsprint some to the finish. The point is: without the aero
    bars I would never have had a chance at catching the pack! With
    them, it was an exciting race for me.
    
    If you're good enough to win races without the bars, then fine.
    But if you're not the best, the aero bars offer advantages in
    certain situations like the abovementioned.
    
    Mark

< Note 430.11 by USMRM5::MREID >
                       -<  Scott bars in Citizen races  >-

<    I believe the Scott bars ARE beneficial in citizen races. One of
<    my friends used them in citizen road races, and I have used Sark
<    bars (aero) in these races as well.
    
I'm a USCF racer, and since they are illegal in our races it doesn't really
matter to me that much.  However, if I was in a citizen's race I sure as h**l
wouldn't want someone near me in the pack with those things, considering
public riders (as they are called now) propensity to crash.  I can just
imagine one of those things going right into my back.  No thanks, keep 'em
for triathalons and time-trials but that's all.

    RE: .-1  (A. Cohen)
    
    	What about RAAM?  I don't recall anyone using them, but I'm
    	sure they would be ideal for much of that race.  And very little
    	danger of bumping into a competitor's back.  Mr. Penseyres won
    	in 1986 with elbow/forearm rests which were at least as much
      	a benefit from fatigue-lessening as from aerodynamics.

        Have many RAAM contenders used Scott-like bars?
    
    	-john

<
<    RE: .-1  (A. Cohen)
<    
<    	What about RAAM?  I don't recall anyone using them, but I'm
<    	sure they would be ideal for much of that race.  And very little
 
I don't know for sure but I believe that drafting is not allowed in the RAAM.
In other words, the RAAM is really a mass-start, 3000+ mile time-trial. If this
is true than that falls in line with what I originally said.

What I was objecting to was the use of them in pack races, the RAAM is not a
pack race.

Franz Spilauer won the 1988 RAAM using Scott DH bars, and numerous other RAAM
competitors used them, or the Scott clamp-ons, or the Profile-for-Speed Aero 
bars.  I don't think anyone with any competitive hopes in RAAM would ride with 
standard bars.

As far as road racing goes, there's nothing inherently dangerous about Scott 
DH bars, as far as I'm concerned.  The one physical attribute cited as 
dangerous is the open ends, but this can be solved by using the bridge piece 
that is now available (which is wise anyway, since it stiffens up the bars a 
lot).  It is true that one has a little less steering control when laid out on 
the bars, but a responsible rider would not be out there in when riding in a 
pack.  There's no advantage, and many disadvantages.  As Mark said, the only 
time one would actually use them was when in a solo situation.  I don't buy 
the argument against them that the irresposible rider is dangerous, so 
disallow them.  An irresponsible rider is dangerous on any kind of 
bike/handlebar combo!  I would (and have) used the Scott Clip-on bars in road 
races, as I'd rather have the traditional bars and brake positions, since 
that's what I'd use 95% of the time.

I remember reading that the Scott clip-on bars were legal in USCF races last 
year, and that a high ranking US Team member won a race using them, but I also 
saw a rider not allowed to start in a local USCF race by an official who 
didn't seem to know about the rule.  I wonder what the rule is this year?

Kevin ...who rode over 7100 miles on Scott DH's last year and has excellent 
control of the bike...

    Re; 430.9 Ken, I went through the file and found only Notes 166
    & 262. Did I miss some?
    
    I'm hearing some of the things I'm looking for in both files. I
    immediately recognized an adjustment factor/less stability, etc...
    I really won't get a good "feel" until I hit the road (figuratively)
    and get some experience under the ol' belt.
    
    I'm leaning toward an understanding here that there is significant
    worth to the bars. Articles only tell you so much so I figured I'd
    ask the experts. They seem a little "flexy" in the forward position.
    Is the crossbar worth buying? Is there any breathing impedence?
    
    More please, I'm a sponge for this stuff.
    
    Chip

< Note 430.16 by WMOIS::C_GIROUARD >
                               -< MORE, PLEASE? >-

>    Is the crossbar worth buying?  

Absolutely!  It makes the bars much stiffer, esp when you need it, like 
climbing in any of the various positions.

>Is there any breathing impedence?

Yes, if you don't have the stem raised up enough.  Actually, its more of a
upper leg/chest interference problem.  One of my bikes needs a taller stem,
and I get a little interference when out all the way.  I can lessen this
somewhat by pedaling a little more flat footed; this lowers the maximum height
of my knees, thus providing more clearance btw knees and chest.  This problem 
could also be lessened by rotating the front of the bars up a little, which 
would make for a higher body position.  I don't that tho, since its not as aero 
as dead flat bars are.

Kevin

    Thanks, Kevin. My shoes came in and I picked 'em last night.
    Natuarally, I took my "old" iron off the trainer and set-up
    my "new" iron and adjusted the shoes. The new bicycle was set-
    up for me after I had a FIT KIT done and I was told that I wouldn't
    have to do any adjustments (ya right!). The first thing I did was
    raise the bars almost an inch. You were right. My knees were
    pummeling my chest in the laid out position. I only spent a little
    time on the bike, but (maybe it's in my head) I felt an increase
    in the efficiency of the peddling. Also, it actually seemed more
    comfortable (except the brake positioning will take some getting
    used to). I ready to rock and roll tonight. Expect to do a little
    more fine tuning though. Thanks again!
    
    Chip

< Note 430.18 by WMOIS::C_GIROUARD >
                                -< YAHOO!!!!! >-

Chip,

   So are we going to see you on the ultra-marathon or triathlon circuits this 
year?

Kevin

    Back again. The network booted me out just as I was accepting and
    lost the body. The answer to your question is the summed up in the
    title of .20. I have done (and do) a little running in the woods
    near my house once in a while. I used to swim competitively in 
    high school and AAU for a little bit after I graduated. However,
    and I mean it's a big HOWEVER, the only time I get in the water
    nowadays is during vacation after a couple of beers next to the
    motel pool! So....? I live in Gardner, Ma and last summer they held
    the first (mini) triathlon. I watched on a local channel. I'm sure
    I could finish. The real question is: "Will there be anyone there
    to help me prove that I did?" I am really considering entering this
    summer. Starting slowly and not embarrassing myself in front of
    throngs of people. Another note on my swimming career - I did do
    4x100 freestyle relay, but my forte was the backstroke.
    
    We'll see and thanks for the info. Does someone publish a schedule
    of such events in this file? Probably my best bet would be to start
    with a biathlon! I'm old - 36 big ones!
    
    Chip

< Note 430.21 by WMOIS::C_GIROUARD >
                          -< U-M or TRI's REVISITED >-

Watch the Triathlon notes file for tri's and bi's, here for bike races, 
including U-M stuff.
    
>    with a biathlon! I'm old - 36 big ones!

You're only as old as you feel...I'm 37, and don't feel a day over 25!    

Kevin

    36, 36, humbug!
    
    ed

    I hear ya'll. The problem is that when I was 25 I felt like I was
    65! Badly abused temple! Only recently (last 3 years) have I developed
    a desire to feel good and live longer. The last year and a half
    have I developed a serious/fun attitude toward exercise. Believe
    me, the clock is going backwards. If I would compete against me
    10-15 years ago I'd win today. So please, take it easy on someone
    trying to eliminate 15 years of abuse (smoking, drinking, swearing,
    clubbing, etc... excessively). I'm still fragile.
    
    Chip

< Note 430.24 by WMOIS::C_GIROUARD >
                    -< STILL FRAGILE AFTER ALL THESE YEARS >-

But with your new attitude, you will get younger as you get older...

    Yeah, I know and it feels wonderful..... looking forward to the
    rest of the years!