Conference noted::bicycle

    
    	See the winter training note, unfortunately its almost time
    to revive that activity again.   I'll restate my position on the TACX
    rollers (now ~$150), they are the best of both types of trainer.
    Despite what Eddie B says about rollers, you can get a damned good work
    out on these, even with just one fan hooked up, and they do help to
    make you smooooothe.  To some extent the balancing trick itself
    relieves the boredom and becomes more difficult as you tire.  I like to
    warm down on mine by seeing how slow I can go for the last minute or
    two, sometimes I can get the cateye to register zero on the speed and
    cadence, but only for a few seconds.
    
    	Reg
    
    	(Thinking about a rowing machine for this winter, just for variety)

    I got my first real bike last winter and after a few coooool rides
    got a wind trainer (Eclipse Vortex).  It works as advertised.  After
    a few months of daily use (30-40min) I found that the noise was
    either increasing or my sensetivity was increasing.  I also found
    that I was 'adjusting' the tire friction more often, anyway I finally
    decided to get another wind trainer and ended up getting rollers
    instead (Krietler (sp?)).  
    
    In my opinion there is no comparison, rollers are much more
    interesting and (for me) as good or better workout.  There require 
    more concentration and upper body work.  They're quieter and don't
    require and adjustment either.  My vote goes to rollers.
    
    Ty
    

The Eclipse Vortex has worked well for me. You can even stand up without
feeling like you're going to fall. It is noisy but all wind trainers are.

I noticed in my last Performance Bicycles catalog, that they have a new
trainer that creates resistence with magnets and not a fan. The result
is a wind trainer type device without the noise. This may be worth 
looking into.

Trainers are boring but some things help like a VCR, tapes of bike 
races and triathlons and some good old rock n roll. My workouts are
usually 45 min to 1 hour. For some reason, the first 20 minutes is 
always the hardest. 

                                        Keith

> Trainers are boring but...

Trainers are boring but rowing machines (Reg) make wind trainers feel like life 
-in-the-fast-lane!

I'll n'th the observations that rollers are a more intense workout, but would 
say the the noise depends on the quality and construction of each. And, a good
wind trainer costs half what the best rollers do... 

-Scott

I have two wind trainers. The Slocum Road Simulater is the one I prefer
to the RacerMate. Stability is better, and the device is better built.
Noise is definitely bad, but I use a "Walkman" turned up to "deafening".
A greater problem is the cracks that are starting to appear in the ceiling
of the room below. My wife blames the trainers. I blame the 200+ years of
age in the house. Perhaps she's right???

My question about this subject is: Has anyone figured out how to put 
headphones into a TV so the doggone set doesn't have to blast the neighbors?

Or, has anyone figured out how to attach the TV to the trainer so the trainer
would generate the power to drive the set? Reg would probably blow the 
picture tube, but us "Normal Hill Climbers" would have some added 
incentive to keep on peddaling.            


Gary "anticipating the Counterpoint" Miller
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    RE: .5
    	I put a type of headphone jack in my TV that connects the headphone
    in parallel with the speaker -- and also disconnects the speaker
    from the circuit whenever the headphone plug is in the jack.  The
    insertion of the plug into the jack breaks the circuit mechanically.
    Now I can pound away on the windtrainer and listen to the TV with
    very little background noise.

    re: 5 & 6
    
    My Toshbia TV has a built-in headphone jack so I often watch TV
    while riding the ole' VETTA windtrainer.  
    
    I just set up my windtrainer the other night antispating the coming
    cold weather and decide to spin through "Raiders of the Lost Ark".
    I noticed that as I spun faster (during the chase scenes) that the
    picture picked-up static as if I were running an electrical appliance
    (e.g., Microwave oven); the higher the cadence the more static.
    
    I imagine that the rubber of the tire against the steel of the
    windtrainer drum is generating a static electric field which is
    disrupting the picture.   
    
    Anyone other TV-Windtrainer note a similar effect? 
    
    jbn
    

    
    	Somewhere in this conference (I think) I described the
    modifications I made to my set of rollers to reduce static build
    up.  This was for a *BAD* case of the ZAPS in dry february, I couldn't
    dismount in the garage after 5 minutes without getting a big blue
    *WHACK* !
    
    	Basically I just made wire loops out of coat hanger wire, attached
    them to the axles of the rollers, and hung small loops of chain from
    them over the rollers and down to *GROUND*.  
    
    	I don't know how you would adapt such a change to a wind trainer,
    but I don't know why you would want to ride one of those anyway.  Maybe
    thats why you have to suffer TV ?, to swamp yourself with an even more
    boring stimulus so that the wind trainer is bearable by comparison.
    Pink/white noise technique ? 

A good set of rollers is very quiet.  That is a definite advantage when
    you live in an apartment.  I live in a duplex and ride mine in the
    basement, where the lack of anything below the floor further reduces
    noise travelling through the house.  After a while, even rollers
    get to be pretty boring.  Some suggestions: network TV (do your
    intervals during commercials), PBS (a steady low-key workout), 90
    min cassettes (45 min workout to inspirational music), reading (Nashbar
    sells a "book stand" to attach to your bike), stripping (taking
    off and putting back on clothes -- see old Bicycling article on
    roller riding), talking on the phone (reach out and touch someone),
    ride with someone else (not on same roller, and don't reach out
    and touch someone).
    
    Rollers *can* help you be smoother and gain better balance (personal
    experience) but my observation has been: people who already keep
    a good cadence and don't weave all over the road will find roller
    riding (the basics) easy enough.
    
    Do cover your headset and bike to keep sweat off!  Whether riding
    rollers or wind trainers.  A fan helps also (didn't you say you
    wanted to feel the wind in your hair?  Well, now you can!)
    
    Someone noted the Magna-xxx from Performance.  It's interesting
    to note also that they offer turbo-fans on their rollers.  Can you
    say "___"?
    
    Another advantage of rollers is there is usually room for extra
    attachments.  An ice cream maker.  Electric generator (Boston Edison).
    

    I've got a set of cortina aluminum filding rollers that I have been
    rinding on for some time. I agree with the others that rollers add
    some excitement to the ride, as I have bit the dust a couple of
    times as I flew off while spinning in a 108 gear inch. But all in
    all I enjoyed the training on them. Now, I have wimped out, due
    to lack of space (required for the spinning front wheel) and purchased
    the preiviously mentioned Minoura Magturbo trainer. This widget
    is a trainer set up like a windtraniner minus the fans and plus
    a big magnet. I've found the magtrainer to be really great. It has
    7 resistence levels on it, the lowest is at least equal to the
    resistance of my rollers. Clicking the resistance up really makes
    for a hard ride....and quiet....super, this widget makes no noise
    other than tire noise and chain noise. I got mine for $115 from
    nashbar, and it was delivered in 3 days.(to colorado) It makes for
    easy indoor training, as the tv or stereo does not have to be loud.
    Check one out...

    More news on the minoura magturbo...after entering .10 I've put
    some miles on the trainer and I am now having problem's with the
    trainer, and I'd like all the interested readers to know my experience.
    The trainer still functions, but at certain rpm's the mag unit vibrates
    and creates a great deal of noise. The noise cycles in and out.
    I've tightened all the mounts and screws, to no avail... I'm in
    the process on trying to contact minoura to see if they will swap
    it out....

    
    Sounds like the center bearing....you might check the magnetic wheel
    where it mounts to the trainer frame, the bearing may just be loose
    
    CdH
    

    Has anyone found a set of rollers that they really enjoy,... with
    little noise and great workout.  These previous notes all seem to
    downgrade most of the trainers.
    
    Looking for a dependable trainer/rollers!
    
    John

    
    As for wind trainers, I recently bought the Minora Mag turbo. Being
    able to adjust the tension while riding is great.  I don't think
    it's as quiet as its supposed to be though
    
    Stew
    

    re .13	Yes, I enjoy my TACX rollers, very much in fact.  Only
    trouble is I cannot ride them indoors, or even out of doors, if
    the temperature is above 20 F.
    
    	Reg
    
    	(Oh, they generate a lot of static.  Without some kind of grounding
    device to bleed it off from the rollers themselves its possible to
    get enourmous jolts when dismounting.)

    I just bought a set of TACX rollers, but am having some trouble
    getting going. So far, I've only managed to keep on them by
    holding onto something firm. However, I broke down and bought an
    attachment which clips onto the front of the bike to keep it stable.
    Am I just being chicken? After all, I've only fallen off the rollers
    once. How do I get used to riding on them?
    Also, with the bike held at the front, the rear wheel moves left
    and right as I pedal (by about 3-4 inches). Is this normal or do
    I have some sort of alignment problem?
    Thanks for your help. I've found the other notes here to be not
    only interesting and informative, but also inspirational.

    re .16
    
    	Just be patient.  It takes different people different amounts
    of time to master rollering.  It doesn't really matter  how long
    it takes you.  I found that setting them up close to the garage
    door worked well for me, I had them close enough that I could hold
    the bar tops and rest against the door with my elbow by hunching
    forward enough to bend my arm a lot.  *DON"T* try to steer with
    the bars, turning left makes the bike go right the same as on the
    road, but its much more exaggerated on rollers and can quickly get
    you into violent overcorrection swerving.  Just rest the hands
    on the bars close to the stem and keep the fingers open.  If you
    can get a helper/coach to hold the setpost and/or head tube that
    can help too, I'd offer to drop by for 1/2 hour and help, but REo2-F/L8
    sounds a long way from Marlborough Mass.  Oh, you need a lot of
    speed when learning, more than on a road bike, so disconnect the
    fans and use a high enough gear to give you 40 ~ 50 KmPH (25 ~ 30
    MPH).  Unless they have changed them and/or you are using them in
    damp conditions you may get static build up from TACXrollers, no
    problem until you try to dismount, then the thought of a 30KVolt jolt
    through the crotch will make you want to stay on them until the
    spring rains come.  I can't describe my grounding scheme well without
    a picture, send me mail if you think you may need it, I'll make
    a sketch.

    	Reg
    

    
    I learned in a tight doorway.  You just bounce off one side then
    the other.  Not enough room to fall.  Check your alignment, not
    the bike's.  Seat position, posture, and style can greatly influence
    your riding.  That's why one choose's rollers over a stationary
    trainer.
    
    You'll fall again, but you'll straighten out in a few hours.
    
    JD

	I set up next to a closed door. This way I can lean on the door or grab
the handle.  When I first started I also put a futon (Japanese mattress) on the
other side so if I fell I would have something softer than concrete to land on.

	I was told "Do not look down at the rollers or the front wheel." I tried
to look at the ground about 10-20 feet forward. Now I can look around no
problem, but when I started this helped. 

	Spin at a cadence which is not so fast (easy) you are jerking around nor
so slow (hard) you are jerking around.  Smoothness of spin counts.  As someone
said you want the tires spinning fairly fast so they act as gyroscopes to help
balance.  I think wheel speed is best obtained when first learning to roll
by shifting not by pedaling harder or faster. That is for later.

I took quite a few falls when I started but now I can ride until boredom or
exhaustion takes over.  Just remember if you quit riding a bike after one fall
you would be walking now. 

I tried one of those attachments for balancing the bike recently. The problem I
had was the bike tended to lean slightly to the side. Not alot but just enough
to make the bike push on the support.  It appears to me the rollers, bike and
brace must all be very closely coordinated to hold the bike exactly straight
up. It takes very little lean to cause the bike to try to "turn".  Since I was
concerned about what riding the bike all winter like this would do to the bike,
I sent the braces back. 

from .17

>    Just rest the hands
>    on the bars close to the stem and keep the fingers open.  

	Interesting. I found holding close to the stem made me feel less
balanced. Whatever works, I suppose.

Ed

The smooth cadence is the key to successful rollering - that swerving 
all over the rollers indicates that your riding style is putting a lot 
of extraneous forces on the bike (sideways lurching, etc). Most folks 
don't realize this when they ride the road, since you don't have a 
stationary reference to realize that you do swerve a lot. Keep at the 
rollers (minus the brace, it'll come!), and you'll be amazed in the 
spring at how smoothly you zip down the road.... anything you can use to 
hold onto to stabilize yourself is OK, but try for something that 
doesn't force you into holding on in an unnatural position - try to set 
up near something that allows you to use something near a natural riding 
position. FWIW, I started out leaning on a cash register and eventually 
could mount and ride without anything to hang onto.

>    Just rest the hands
>    on the bars close to the stem and keep the fingers open.  

This should work well for starters, after you get used to the rollers, 
you should try all the things you would normally do on a bike on the 
road. Switch hand positions from up to down on the drops or onto the 
brake levers, shift gears, etc. You'll be surprised at how much you tend 
to swerve doing these simple things! Keep practicing and they'll get 
MUCH smoother. After a couple years of riding rollers, I got to where I 
could stand up and sprint on the rollers, but I got shot at once in this 
conference for suggesting that, so I won't recommend that anyone else do 
it!
                                          ken

    
    The "just rest the hands on the bars near the stem and keep the fingers
    open", was intended to help avoid the white knuckle death grip.  I was
    trying to make the point that the bars are only used to stop you
    falling forwards, *NOT* to steer with.  I can usually tell who's
    been doing 100+ a week on rollers all winter vs who's been grunting
    it out against a wind trainer on a 53 x 12.
    
    	Reg
     

    Hi, 
    Most of the previous replies mentioned TACX roller-trainers.
    Performance bicycling has a roller-trainer in their catalog : 
    I could not see any brand name on the picture, it just says 
    Performance Trainer. Cost : $100 for bare trainer, $40 for front
    stabiliser, $30 for 2 wind-simulating fans, $160 for whole package.
    Some of the local stores I called carried TACX, so I'm looking
    for some brand name advice. I'm not terribly price sensitive : 
    $100-200 is ok. 
    
    Thank you,  / Jon 
    

    
    Performance has their own version (stickers) of some Japanese produced
    rollers.  I have them without fans.  They're decent, but nowhere
    near as smooth as Kreitlers.  For the money, not a bad deal (I got
    them cheaper last year), but I might go for Kreitlers next time.  
    
    Can't help you on TACX.

My .02 on rollers - get the slowest you can. Some of the rollers I've 
ridden had super slick ball bearings that would spin with almost no 
effort - great if you wanna spin 180+ in your highest gear and try to 
set the world 1 hr. roller record without breaking a sweat. If you want 
exercise, however, a roller with some resistance in the bearings (or add 
-on resistance like the fans, I guess) is necessary.... Note that 
"smooth" rollers don't have to be "fast" rollers - smooth rollers are 
desirable, but that has more to do with the quality of the bearings and 
the concentricity of the drums than how much resistance the bearings 
have.
                                          ken

I have the Performance rollers with the fans.  I find that one fan is quite 
enough resistance...if fact I find that maintaining 18mph on the rollers with
1 fan SEEMS as hard as 20mph on the road.  My heartrate doesn't really agree 
with that, but that's the way it feels.

The quality of the rollers is ok, tho I've never ridden any others.  The fans 
aren't that good.  One of mine tends to move out of line the the roller that 
drives it, which ultimately can cause the belt to jump off the fan.

Kevin

    I would like to bring back the subject of WIND Trainers.
    IMy wife expressed an interest in getting one, and I'm
    not sure which kind to get.  Since she is a novice, I have 
    ruled out rollers (they will be too difficult for her).
    
    I have seen 2 basic wind trainer designs:
    
    	- Piggy-back
    	- "other kind" - this type has the fans under the rear wheel
    
    I see some advantages of the piggy-back; less space needed, easier
    to get the bike on/off, less stress and strain on teh frame.
    
    However, in principle the one with the fans under the wheel seems
    to make more sense.  
    
    Which one should I get and why?????
    
    Thanks
    Jon

< Note 149.26 by SKETCH::MYSEL "Hang the DJ" >
                        -< Help - Which Wind Trainer?? >-

I would suggest trying them out to decide for yourself.  My thoughts are that 
the real piggyback model which attaches to the bike at the rear brake bridge 
transmits enough vibration to the seat to be annoying.  Any of the models that 
leave the front wheel on feel unstable to me and set the bike on a downhill 
angle, unless you put something under the front wheel to raise it, which makes 
it even more unstable.  I also don't like any stand that attaches to the rear 
axle...I think that places undue stress on the axle (I know a guy who bent an 
axle that way, but he is an animal).  So I prefer a traditional trainer that 
attaches to the bike at the fork and bottom bracket.  They are stable enough 
to get out of the saddle and hammer and support the bike safely.  I also 
prefer fans to the magnetic devices since the fans have a more realistic 
resistance curve, according to the ads.

Kevin

    re .26	As .28 points out, its more likely that one will become
    bored very quickly with stationary stands (not that rollers move
    around), this will lead to less use, which makes it a poorer choice.
    Also, it may be somewhat unfair to prejudge that your wife may be
    unable to handle rollers because she is "a novice", if she can ride
    at all on the road then she can almost certainly learn to ride rollers.
    Usually the most disconcerting things about them are the extra height
    above the ground and the sensitivity to balance/steering input.
    The height is OK once you get used to it (1/2 - 1 hr), the
    steering/balance is a lot of what you get out of it.
    
    	re .28	Smooth enough ?

    	Well, its pretty clear to me each springtime who has spent their
    winter on rollers.  Oh, they may not be *THE FASTEST*, but they're
    certainly the smoothest and the acquired efficiency seems to carry
    them further too.
    
    	Reg
    

< Note 149.29 by MENTOR::REG >
                       -< Get smooth, get spinnin'..... >-

Why not use both, since both types have different advantages?

Kevin

    I won't debate the advantages of rollers vs wind trainers, but do
    have one comment.

    The trainers with magnetic resistance devices are *vastly* quieter than
    the ones with fans, which may be a great benifit if there are others in
    the household.

    - Jim  [who still rides the road when he can, here in Mastachusetts]

    re .30	"Why not both ?"
    
    	Well, for me it would be kinda redundant since I already have
    the rollers *WITH* fans.   A single TACX fan is more than enough
    load for me to ride, i.e. there are gears that I can't maintain
    a cadence of 90 on for even one minute.  Any strength building beyond
    what I can get out of my roller set up would probably be best done
    on a weight bench anyway,  I wouldn't consider taking on a riding
    load that I could only churn through 50 revs. or so.  I suspect that
    it would destroy ones' "form" to do so (not that I have any, but
    I don't want to inhibit what little chance there is of getting some).
    OK, so I'm not a track sprinter, I'm riding for exercise, health,
    enjoyment, etc.  there are only so many exercise/recreation hours
    a week, I have other interests, a stationary trainer would have
    to compete for $$s and space, right now it would be way down my
    priorities list,  "diminishing returns", "opportunity cost", etc.
    
	re magnetic resistance and noise.  I would guess that on a wooden
    floor there is still a lot of rumble transmitted and that would
    be much more annoying than the wind noise.  Personally I can't ride
    indoors anyway, I just get too damned hot.  Its starting to get
    cold enough in the mornings now for me to be able to set them up out
    there for an hour before work, but I've been running for a couple
    of months, I'll try to switch over to rollering when the roads get
    all slushed up.

    	Reg
    
    [...a lot of this winter's training will probably be on the piano
    anyway]
    

    I just got my second flat this winter on my wind trainer.  What
    do you think I'm doing wrong?  Is the wheel supposed to be directly
    over the fans?  Mine is sort of down on an angle.  It's hard enough
    to get motivated to ride indoors, but to have to change a flat first
    is a real drag.
    
    Kathy
    

>    I just got my second flat this winter on my wind trainer.  What

What kind of flat? Blowout, puncture, slow leak? I blew out a tire once 
riding rollers, apparently due to riding too high a pressure in a pretty 
used-up sewup. Also, what kind of tires, sewup or clincher?

                                                ken

    I've experienced a number of annoying flats when riding a wind
    trainer over the years.  Each time I found only a tiny pinhole
    in the tube and nothing apparently wrong with the tire, and suspect
    that a fiber from the tire casing manages to puncture the tube
    due to the heat and localized pressure of the roller against the
    tire.  When on the road your tires are loaded against a substantially
    flat surface, and not *constantly* flexed against a small diameter
    roller.

    I wish wind trainers had larger rollers and better bearings, so the
    roller could spin at a lower RPM.  They would be quieter, though the
    magnetic resistance ones are not too bad...

    Next year I'll break down and get some rollers which should be much
    better in this and other regards.

    - Jim

    Each tube has a tiny pinhole on the outside seam.  I've also been 
    using Mr. Tuffy rim strips, if that makes any difference.  The holes
    are in different spots on the tube, so I don't think there's anything
    really wrong with the tire, but Jim's idea (.35) about fibers from
    the tire puncturing the tube because of heat makes sense.  
    
    I'm just surprised about getting flats at all.  This is the third
    winter that I've been using the wind trainer and I've never had
    a problem before.  
    
    Thanks for the help,
    Kathy	                                               

    
    	re flats on wind trainers;  I'd support the notion that fibres
    from the casing may be a cause, due to casing fatigue caused by
    the small roller, though its difficult to see how this would be
    worse that the pounding a tire gets on rough roads.  I don't buy
    the heat theory.  Another possibility is nipping of the tube between
    the tuffy strip and the casing, check your bicycle mechanic's
    proficiency for this :-^  Maybe you need REAL tires ?  Y'know, dem
    gloo_on ones ?

    	Reg
    

    I finally got around to changing the flat last night.  There were
    lots of little black flecks on the inside of the tire.  But nothing
    that seemed sharp enough to penetrate the tube.  But I did find a tiny
    tiny little sharp thing on the outside of the tire.  If that was
    enough to penetrating the tire, it seemed to be about the same spot
    as the hole in the tube.  
    
    If I don't get another flat, I'll assume that was the problem. 
    If I do get another flat, I'll get rid of the Mr. Tuffy's and probably
    quit riding indoors.
    
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions!
    
    Kathy 

    Hi,
    
    Just another idea perhaps Mr. Tuffy is causing too much heat buildup.
    It sounds like the tube is flaking away.  One thing i have tried,
    with success so far, is to use bald tires.  This lessens the heat
    buildup.  If you are rich you can buy slicks, what I do is use the
    old tires.
    
    
    My $0.02
    Joe

    Kathy:
    
    I had a similar problem with my wind trainer. Seems like I would
    get two or three flats a month. I ran both high and low pressure
    charged tires and so forth. What fixed the problem was changing
    tubes. I bought a THORN proof tube and have not had a problem since.
    I ride the beast three to four times a week doing racing tpye workouts
    and I suspect that the tube rubs against the inside of the tire
    a gradually wears away into the black flecks which you hav noticed.
    By putting in a heavy duty tube which has a much thicker wall this
    problem will be greatly reduced. When and if it comes back I'll
    just buy another tube and throw the old one away. I'm on my second
    year with the one I put in two seasons ago.
    
    
    /Charlie Schnare

     Re .-1

     Thanks for that suggestion... I'd never thought of trying that.

     - Jim

    I received a Minora Mag Turbo last year for my birthday. I have
    a real problem with excessive tire wear (2 tires lat year). I have
    brought it back to the dealer to make sure I didn't blow the assembly.
    I hadn't. He said he'd swap it for a windtrainer, but when I asked
    him whether my problem would be solved he said he didn't know. I
    have adjusted this thing 'till doomsday, no luck. Noise - well it
    was quiet for about a month. When I get the rev's up it quiets down,
    but pulsates at lower cadences. Anyone else with this problem?
    
    Chip

    I've gone thru a couple of wind trainers over the years and think
    they just plain suck.  I'd like to try rollers this year instead.

    Tire wear seems to be in the nature of things - look at how the tire
    is squeezed against that small-radius cylinder.  It has to be reasonably
    tight or it will slip, and the constant flexing leads to heating and
    wear.  I have tried to leave the tire as loose as possible without it
    slipping to minimize this.

    The business of noisy bearings really torques me off.  Why these bozos
    can't sell a product with adequate bearings is beyond my comprehension.
    Possibly the market is percieved to be for weekend riders, so the
    cheapest little bearing suffices.  I've tried replacing the bearings
    with better ones from a local supplier but it hasn't really solved
    the problem in that the new bearings started to become noisy after a
    while.  They are just too small for the rev range and loading involved.

    - Jim

    I'm with you. Let's take 'em out and shoot every last one of the
    dirty &^%$#$%#@@^!!!! It's not like thier giving these things to
    us either!!!
    
    Chip
    
    P.S. I am hearing that rollers do not inflict the beating that the
         trainer will?

< Note 149.44 by WMOIS::C_GIROUARD >

>    P.S. I am hearing that rollers do not inflict the beating that the
>         trainer will?

I think that rollers will also wear tires more quickly than road riding.  I 
believe this is so because:

   - on the rear tire there are two points of contact, which seems like it 
     would cause twice the wear.

   - due to the constancy of the contact patch (compared with road riding), 
     the tires wear in one spot, thus wearing more quickly.

I put in between 50-100 miles per week indoors during the winter, mostly on 
rollers.  My tires seem to develop about a 3/8 inch flat wear pattern after a 
while.  Of course, when riding a trainer, you're only wearing one tire 8^)

Kevin

Re. .43

Rollers instead of a wind trainer?  Unless you use something like 
Kreitlers with fans mounted, you don't get any resistance.  The new 
Crahsbar rollers support an optional mag unit, but I dislike mag units 
because they're unreliable as all getout and because their resistance 
curve is logarithmic instead of exponential.

- Dick

    RE: .46
    
    I have American Classic rollers and they have more resistance than
    I can handle.  They don't have any fans or magnets, but after 45
    minutes in a 42-23 I'm pooped.  They're low to the ground and
    have an extra set of rollers to cradle the back wheel.  They're
    fairly quiet, relative to my wind trainer.  They're worth checking
    out if you're in the market for rollers.
    
    Phil

    
    	Rollers are usually ~4 inch diameter, the two at the back
    distribute the load and reduce tire wear (relative to wind trainers).
    I have the TAXC with fans, see early notes, I still like them and
    can see no GOOD reason to upgrade to Kreitlers - though if they
    brake irrepairably I'd replace them with K-word.

    	Reg
    

re. .46
    
........
>because they're unreliable as all getout and because their resistance 
>curve is logarithmic instead of exponential.

OK, I just gotta ask.....  Why does it matter if the resistance curve
is logarithmic or exponential?????
    
    Stew

>OK, I just gotta ask.....  Why does it matter if the resistance curve
>is logarithmic or exponential?????
    
    ... because wind-resistance (viz., effort to overcome wind resistance)
    increases exponentially with ground-speed - and that's one thing your
    trainer should be simulating.  (I think that's the whole story.)
    
    -john

    Mag Turbo's do have a different feel - however, I tend to 'ride' at
    a steady cadence, so the differing dynamics are not really an issue.

    When a Mag Turbo is working, it is *much* quieter than fans, but
    they do flake out (due to weak bearings) under serious use.

    I would probably use some form of resistance on rollers too but have
    to go shopping and try some to say.

    - Jim

    
    Re Log vs Exp
    
    I always figured that claim was marketing hype by a company that got 
    caught with it's pants down.  I understand the the difference (and
    the neuromuscular argument), but I disagree with the significance.  If 
    WINDtrainers simulate real cycling so well, how come they have legs on 
    them?  There's more to cycling than turning the crank.  (Yes you can
    still argue that 1 shortcoming is better than 2...)
    
    I've read many articles by cycling personalities in triathlon oriented
    publications (yes some cyclist do sell out to the trendies).  Most
    of them say that on of the triathlete's major training problems
    is that they ride against the wind too much.  They all say that
    learning to ride in the windless resistance of a paceline would
    greatly increase the average triathlete efficency and form.  They
    claim that triathlete (or any novice cyclist) try to "push big gears,
    all power stuff" (John Eustice's article in TT).  My point is, "If
    exponential resistance is SO important, why suggest pacelines and
    motorpacing to individuals who ride strictly TT?"  

    My answer is "It is not that important, use the winter to maintain your
    aerobic base and work on form and peddalling."
        
    Indoor trainers are a necessary evil.  They are very good for pedalling
    drills and long brainless aerobic workouts.  If a magnet keeps the
    spouse and neighbor off your back, then it's beneficial.
    
    I think rollers with no resistance are not as easy as people claim.
    Most people just don't ride them long enough.  Rollers get
    "exponentially" harder as a function of time.  The resistance on
    the pedals stays the same, but try getting reaching for the water
    bottle after 90 minutes.  You don't get tired on a bicycle in the
    first 5 miles, why should you get tired on a trainer in 15 minutes?

    FWIW I ride rollers with 2 fans (which simulate ~30mph wind) and a 
         Magturbo
    
    JD Doyle

>    ... because wind-resistance (viz., effort to overcome wind resistance)
>    increases exponentially with ground-speed - and that's one thing your
>    trainer should be simulating.  (I think that's the whole story.)
    
>    -john

    No.

    It increases at Velocity squared.....Actually there's linear
    term for viscous flow, and a squared term for turbulence.  The
    squared term is sort of (how-much-air-you-move-per-second  *
    how-fast-you-move-it-out-of-the-way).

    If it were exponential, it would either be impossible to feel
    wind at bike speed or it would be very wasteful for planes
    to move at 600mph.

    The fans are probably velocity squared too though.  But unless
    you're changing speeds a lot, or trying to compare miles on one
    machine to miles on another machine, to it probably doesn't matter.

    I'd rather go outside anyways.

    -Jeff

Since I'm the one who started the exp v. log resistance discussion, I 
guess I owe an explanation of why it *does* matter.

First, as a mathematical note in response to .-1, resistance on the road 
isn't proportinoal to the square of speed.  The viscous-flow resistance 
multiplies with the kinetic energy resistance, and the total resistance 
is proportional to the cube of your speed.

Okay, now about exp v. log trainers.  The difference matters because 
constant-speed cranking on a trainer isn't useful for more than building
aerobic endurance.  It bears no relation to the real world, and if
you're used to just constant-speed training you're going to be useless 
on the road, which is neither flat nor possessed of constant wind.  The 
first time you have to step into it, you'll die because you won't have 
any muscle reserve.

I've found that a far better way to use my wind trainer is to do 
intervals on it.  And a mag trainer makes doing intervals pretty nearly 
worthless, because it just doesn't bahave anything like the real road. 
Instead, the faster you go, the less the resistance increases, and at 
any reasonably fast speed you might as well be on rollers.

- Dick

	When you start an interval on a trainer (or on the road for that
	matter), you're going to shift up some number of gears to increase
	your wheel speed, and therefore the resistance, while keeping your
	pedal cadence more or less the same.  The difference between mag
	and wind might mean you have to shift a different number of
	gears.  SO WHAT?

	chris

Re: .55

> When you start an interval on a trainer (or on the road for that
> matter), you're going to shift up some number of gears to increase
> your wheel speed...

Non sequitur.  You can very well sprint by pedalling like crazy in the 
same gear.  That's the way I was taught to do it for conditioning 
purposes, while the upshift is for bulk-building.  Running your cadence 
up to 120 or so with an 80-inch gear and holding it there is a helluva 
lot harder than pedalling at 88 rpm with a 108-inch gear, believe me.

And as a matter of practice, when you sprint on the road, you stand on 
it first to get going, then you shift up.  It's the same as shifting at 
higher RPM in a car - you don't lug the engine down while it's below the 
peak of teh power cure.

- Dick

    
    Dick,
    
    	It seems to me that mag trainers are taking a bit of an 
    unrealistic beating here.... 
    
    	Aren't we using these things for "off season" and "supplemental"
    training??  It seems to me that the main goals of that type of 
    training is to maintain aerobic conditioning, and to work on technique.
    I wind trainer OR a mag trainer will serve both purposes fine! 
    As for mag trainers being "worthless" for intervals....  Lets see,
    when the interval begins my heartrate elevates, it stays elevated
    for a while, and if I want I can even increase the resistance and
    elevate it more....  Then I decrease the resistance and down goes
    the heartrate....  Sounds like VERY worthwile interval training.
    Sure it's not like riding on the road, but I'd bet physiologically
    it's doing a good job!  
    
    	I've ridden a mag trainer for the past 2 winters, and found
    them to be very beneficial.  It's not the road but it sure beats
    sitting around watching last years Tour de France....  I think we
    should keep things in perspective...
    
    Stew

Stew,

Perspective.  Okay.

Don't let's anyone get the idea that I consider mag trainers worthless.  
I don't.  But I think they're less "right" for training the way I do it 
because I don't want to have to think about "Oh, now I'm starting an 
interval, I'd better crank the resistance up."  A wind trainer works the 
same way a road does, allowing me to concentrate on *cycling*; a mag
trainer doesn't.  You can go deer hunting with a slingshot, but it's
more efficient to use a rifle. 

- Dick

    It's about that time of year again; I've seen a couple of "wanted" ads
    for rollers.  Both have mentioned they want fan mounting.  Being the
    proud owner of a set of Kreitler rollers without fans, I want to ask:
    why? On the Kreitlers, I usually spin 53x17 or 53x15.  I'd be a dead
    man if I tried to maintain 53x13 or 53x12 for any length of time. (I
    ride the rollers on a pair of training tubulars pumped up to about 85
    psi.)  And honest, I'm not a lightweight!  The only reason I could
    imagine wanting a fan is if I was doomed to riding inside.  I prefer
    the balcony of my apartment, which even in the coldest weather becomes
    comfortable as I get warmed up.  (It's also more fun to watch the
    neighbors gape as they see me riding a bike on a 5th floor balcony.)

       <<< Note 149.59 by CESARE::JOHNSON "Matt Johnson, DTN 871-7473" >>>
                -< You don't really need a fan on your rollers >-

>    why? On the Kreitlers, I usually spin 53x17 or 53x15.  I'd be a dead
>    man if I tried to maintain 53x13 or 53x12 for any length of time. (I

Are you just working on spin, or are you trying to get an aerobic workout too?
On my (admittedly cheap) Performance rollers I'd get no resistance without the 
fan(s).  I could easily spin any gear on the bike.

>    ride the rollers on a pair of training tubulars pumped up to about 85
>    psi.)  And honest, I'm not a lightweight!  The only reason I could

Does the low air pressure give you sufficient resistance?  The belts that 
drive my fans tend to wear out quickly, or worse yet, stretch during a long 
workout to the point that the resistance decreases (I'm such an animal! :^)  )
I run normal my normal (110) air pressure.

>    imagine wanting a fan is if I was doomed to riding inside.  I prefer

The fans do nothing to cool the rider (at least the rear mounted fans on most 
rollers/trainers).  Don't know about the Krietler's Headwind unit.

Kevin

re: the last couple ....

I've always thought most rollers had too little resistance. That's great 
if you go in for roller races like we occasionally did around the shop 
in the winter.... we had some Cortina and Cinelli rollers that were 
FAAAAAAAAST. During races we were driving top gears at 160+ pedal 
cadence. But for workouts, I got a set of cheapo sealed bearing rollers. 
Real stiff bearings, they barely rolla revolution on their own if you 
spin 'em by hand. Driving these with a 52x20 or so is about all I can 
manage, and I've still got a couple of gears left if I'm really feeling 
like Superman..... no fans needed, shifting gears gives you all the 
resistance you can cope with!
                                      ken

    RE: .60
    
    Yeah, it's a very aerobic workout.  I guess that just shows the 
    difference between brands of rollers.  I still say people should look
    for a certain level of resistance, rather than the method (roller
    design or fan) used to achieve it.  
    
    
    MATT

    Try American Classic rollers and you can take your large chain ring
    off for the winter.  Because you're pedaling in such a low gear
    you can really feel when you're not pedaling smoothly.
    
    Phil

	RE: .59

	A couple of days after the topic of fans on rollers came up I
	picked up the "Killer Headwind" unit for my Krietler Rollers.
	The unit has a door that swings over the intake port to the 
	fans that adjust the amount of resistance that the headwind 
	unit adds. The more the door is open the more resistance. 
	
	There are calibrations on the unit that give the resistance 
	added in terms of MPH of headwind. The three levels are:

		door open		resistance

		   1/8			0 - 2 mph TAIL wind
		   1/2			2 - 4 mph Head wind
		   7/8			7 - 8 mph Head wind

		1. The percent of door open is a guess since it is 
		a round door covering a round port and I didn't feel 
		like doing integrals to find the area under the curve.

		2. On the label credit is given to a university study 
		for the calibrations.

	So, one can assume that with no resistance on the Krietlers
	it is like riding in at least a 2 mph tail wind. Now I am
	not trying to negate the benifits of riding on rollers but
	that you will get a lot more out of them with some type of
	resistance unit attached.

	I'ld like to see the unit calibrated in % grade of a hill.

	Paul

    If no fan means a 2 mph tailwind, that means you can average 26mph
    instead of 24mph.  That's well within the range of gears I have, and
    actually matches with the cogs I end up using.
    
    
    MATT

    < HELP ON ROLLERS >
    
    While I still have my SO's approval (could be temporary, once she
    finds out the price) I want to purchase a set of Kreitler rollers. I've
    checked the local shops around here (2). Here being Omaha and found
    that the rollers are going for $220.00. This seems a bit steep to
    me. I was wondering if anyone knows where a person might be able
    to mail order them? Any help or ideas will be accepted gladly. Also
    that price does not include fans.

    re 149.76
    
    	Why Kreitler's?  You can get a set from Performance or Trashbar
    for 1/2 the cost and the ones from Performance can be folded for
    easy storage.  Will the endorsers for Kreitler, that have tried
    other brands, please let us know if they are really worth twice
    the price?  
    
    						_Jerry

	re: .68

	Krietlers can also be folded. Take a look at the construction and the 
	garantee of the krietlers and they are worth the extra bucks.

Imagine a 30 mile ride on a perfectly straight road with a 1/8" bump every 6 
inches or so,and that's the ride you get on a cheap set of rollers when they 
go out of true.  I've had to replace the drums on my performance rollers after
2 winters, and they never rolled as smoothly as my brother's Kreitlers.  The 
cheaper rollers have a definite "cadence" to them, and the kreitlers are 
noticeably smoother.

Is it worth is?  Depends how much you're going to ride them.  A setup with fans
is significantly more expensive.  If you're going to use them daily, it's 
probably worth it, if only once a week, then perhaps not.

For a really low resistance ride, try a set of Kreitlers no Headwind unit, and 
put on a set of 18 spoke (or less) wheels.  If you don't believe a couple of 
dozen spokes make much of a difference, this might change your mind.

JD

    I was  looking  at this winter's catalogs, and it seems that there
    are  now  three  types  of  wind (or Mag) trainers: The old style,
    where  the  attachments  are  to  the  fork  and Bottom Bracket, A
    version  where  the attachments are to the rear axle and the fork,
    and  a  (very  small) version which only attaches to the rear axle
    (presumably the front wheel stays on the ground).

    Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of these designs? Thanks.

--David

re  ROLLERS

	I don't remember the name of them (American Classic maybe ?),
but there is now a version that replaces the 4 inch rollers with pairs
of ~1 inch rollers, i.e. there is a small "bogie" with a pair of tiny 
rollers in each of the three places that would normally have a 4 inch
roller. 

	Claimed benefits are;  

	Greater resistance, though I would guess it must stress the
tires to get it.

	Lower riding height.  They are probably 3 inches lower, it
may not sound like much, but this is one of the most intimidating
factors to some folks the first time on rollers.

	Easier storage, obviously though I think they don't fold at 
least they're very thin.


	George Gamache has them, I think they're ~$180 or so - not 
that any of us  CARE  how much we spend on cycling (-:, (-:


	R

  On a related subject...

      I've used a set of Minoura rollers that have a magnetic flywheel
attachment for the past two years.  I am convinced that this setup gives
me the best of both worlds.  I've found that riding on rollers teaches
me to stay stable while I ride and the flywheel can give me more than 
enough resistance for the sessions that I want to work on heart rate
intervals (the flywheel is adjustable).
 
      Rollers may take some getting used to but I've become comfortable
enough with them to do interval workouts which require pushing a big gear
at maximum effort for 60 seconds and then pedeling easy to recover (I 
usually situp with my hands off the bars for a minute or so).  I used a
windtrainer for a couple of years but found that I didn't use them nearly
as much as I had anticipated.  The two things that bothered me the most...
boredom & noise.  Rollers don't eliminate either one but they help out.
They are quiet enough to that I can watch TV without waking up the rest
of the house!

     If you're thinking about getting a trainer, look at a set of MagRollers.

     Steve

     

    I'd avoid trainers that attach to the bottom bracket.

    I have a mag-turbo trainer and it's considerably quieter than ones
    with fans; I'd get rollers if I were to do it over, but don't want
    to tie up the money right now.

    Two features of rollers that are available nowadays may help lessen
    resistance to using them - the magnetic loading increases the resistance
    and you can get a front fork stabalizer (kind of like training wheels!)
    if you don't feel comfortable with learning to ride the rollers
    right away.

    Another significant advantage rollers have over trainers is that the
    large drums wear tires much less.  I find it necessary to use one of
    those thick thorn proof tubes to avoid flats using the trainer I have.

    - Jim

    
    Re: .74
    
    <I'd avoid trainers that attach to the bottom bracket.>
    
     Jim,
    
      Would you care to list why ? I just purchased a used one of this type
     and I'm curious to your statement. I saw a reply to one of the many
     trainer notes in this conference about an experience where someone
     with a trainer using the mount on the rear axle, had bent the rear axle
     while using it. This might have been an isolated case, but it made me
     feel kinda good about the purchase. (I should have anyway because I
     got it for a song !)
     
    Thanks,
        George

    Re .75

	I have reservations about the BB mount trainers because the mount
    on one I had broke, sending me to the floor.  It looked like bad
    engineering to do it that way because the clamped front fork seemed
    to be doing most of the work stabilizing the bike.  I could see the
    rear wheel rock from side to side when looking down at it and going
    hard on the thing and this must have flexed the BB mount enough to
    cause failure.

	Bending the rear axle sounds like a risk factor though - but the
    mag trainer I have clamps to the rear axle and the front fork making the
    bike feel rock steady.  I really don't know... it's not a good
    situation using these things in any case.  For many reasons mentioned
    in other notes, rollers seem to be the way to go.

	- Jim

    
    Re: .76
    
      Thanks for the info Jim. I hope I don't experience the same with
     my trainer. As for rollers, maybe in a couple of years. 
    
    Thanks,
       George

KREITLER makes a stationary trainer desinged to minimize frame stress. It grips
the seat post as well as the rear wheels axle. An interesting design in that
the fan unit is driven by a roller under the rear wheel to a fan that directs
air on the rider. The fan is mounted next to the the front wheel holder. The
front wheel stays on the bike it sits in a U section of steal, much like a bike
mount on a Tule roof rack. It looks like the most secure and least harmful way
of mounting a bike on a trainer.

I don't have one of these units. I'm now riding rollers. I would add that
riding rollers are not that hard and they can be less boring than a mounted
bike. As a previous reply mentioned, you can always get a front wheel mount for
rollers.

Tom

PS the trick to riding rollers... Start with no fans or resistance units. Ride
in a doorway or next to a wall. Get up to 23 mph or so before you let go of
what you're holding. Don't look down and... ride in a straight line. I was up
and riding the first time on them with this advice.

    I recently bought a Blackburn trainer.  It seems much sturdier than the
    other trainers I looked at, and it has a heavy flywheel that provides a
    very smooth ride.  At times, however, I have a hard time getting my
    heart rate up and would like to get more resistance.  
    
    Does anyone know if I can substitute the fan for one of those 
    magnetic whatchmacallits?

>    very smooth ride.  At times, however, I have a hard time getting my
>    heart rate up and would like to get more resistance.  
    
Could put on a bigger front chainring / smaller freewheel maybe....

    Spin faster.
    
    Add a generator.
    
    Put a block of wood under the front wheel so you are pedaling up hill.

    re .80
    
    I still want to ride my bike outside my apartment.
    
    re .81
    
    ;-}

     I had one and had the same problem. The resistance just doesn't
    make you work hard. I think I'd end up with an average speed of
    30+ mph when I was done.
    
     My answer was to buy a different trainer... If your brave, you may
    try glueing more magnets onto the wheel. I've taken mine apart before
    and the set-up inside is very elementary... I just don't know what it
    might do to the balance.
    
       Chip

    Rowing ergometers that use a bicycle wheel as a flywheel
    use vanes on the wheel to increase the load.  They were about 3x5
    there were about 6 of them, and they were at a 45 degree angle
    to the radial direction

    You might want to try something like that.

    Then there's spokey dokey's, as well as cards that stick
    into the spoke to make BRRRRRRRR sounds....

    -Jeff

    I'm on my trainer on a 42x17 (fixed) and that is quite hard enough
    thank you.
    
    But assuming that you machine is too weak I tried some sums:
    
    Assume a top gearing of 52x13 (pretty standard) 700mm dia tires(ditto) 
    and a cadence of 110:
    
    Speed at that cadence =
    
    110 (turns/min) * 60 (min/hr) * 52/13 (trns/trn) * 22/7 (pi) * .7 (d)
    / 1000 (m/km)
    
    = 83 kph (approx) or 50 mph.  At that sort of `roadspeed' you need a
    picture of a truck to put in front of the trainer :-) :-)
     
    
    (the other) Rod.
       

    re:
                                              <<< Note 149.85 by MOVIES::WIDDOWSON >>>
                                                -< I've missed something somewhere >-

    ...

    110 (turns/min) * 60 (min/hr) * 52/13 (trns/trn) * 22/7 (pi) * .7 (d)
    / 1000 (m/km)
    
    = 83 kph (approx) or 50 mph.
    
    
    
    I get 58 kph, perhaps my calculator's not as good as yours but, it
    ain't that bad either.

    re: .85
    
    In order to simulate a lifecycle-type workout, I keep my cadence around
    80 for most of the session.  When I practice sprints, I will go up to
    100.  But with the bike in high gear, this makes the trainer flywheel
    spin dangerously fast (I can't help but think what might happen should
    the bike suddenly break loose from the trainer mounts o#;,)
    
    > = 83 kph (approx) or 50 mph.  At that sort of `roadspeed' you need a
    >   picture of a truck to put in front of the trainer :-) :-)
    
    I would expect the picture to be more effective if I but it BEHIND the
    trainer. ;+}
         
    

>    100.  But with the bike in high gear, this makes the trainer flywheel
>    spin dangerously fast (I can't help but think what might happen should
>    the bike suddenly break loose from the trainer mounts o#;,)
    
 Take it from a person that has ridden off the side of a set of *rollers* while
 riding about 25 mph. (No it wasn't on purpose)
 
 You STOP! You don't hit the floor and rocket forward at any speed. You
 stop and fall over.    

    Hey, Tom, thanks for confirming Newton's Second Law.  (At least I think
    it was second, I never was very good at legal enumerations.)  I always
    thought that was what happened but never had the courage to try it.
    
    ed

>    thought that was what happened but never had the courage to try it.
    
Yup, he's right. But! Don't run right home and try this just to prove it 
to yourself! If you ride roller enough, the problem will come to you - 
just remember that it won't be all that bad. However, past experience 
has indicated to me that dismount at speed (caused by explosive 
decompression of one of my tires) can cause other bad things unrelated 
to forward speed - like a bent wheel 'cuz I came off at an angle, and 
bruised leg, etc. Other times I've been luckier, and nothing at all 
happened. But don't go looking for trouble, eh?
                                                 ken

i  know this is old but...

>I've had to replace the drums on my performance rollers after
>2 winters, and they never rolled as smoothly as my brother's Kreitlers.

thinking about rejuvanating my old rollers just for a change of pace ths winter.
(have been riding magtrainer.)

the problem is that the front roller is really badly cracked (lengthwise). the
crack runs about 2/3 of the length of the roller leaving only around 8 inches of
crack free roller surface on one side. riding on the cracked part was
unbelievably noisy so i was essentially riding a roller ~8 inches wide.

the rider above said that he'd replaced the drums on his rollers. my question is
how do you get replacement rollers? i've never seen them for sale anywhere. the
dimensions of the rollers seem to look standard so i'm hoping if they sell them
that the replacements will fit mine. i can't remember the brand of the rollers
i've got.   the side rails are aluminum and look much like construction beams.
this brand was real common when i got them in the early '80s.

any ideas?

    	I believe in going right to the source.
    
    	That being said, if you know who made the rollers, call them
    	up and tell them the problem. They should be able to handle it
    	and fix the problem better than anyone.
    
    	Scott

The thought of indoor training thoroughly revolts me but I would 
like to be in better (cycling) shape next spring.   
I read some of the pro's and con's of wind trainers vs rollers.
Still not sure which way I want to go.   Since I'm probably not
going to race I dont think I need to get rollers for the benefit
of learning how to keep a straight line.   
I kind of like the idea of getting the rear mount wind trainers
as they are small and portable.  The previous note is kind of 
old and other than saying the older Performance model was not 
built well,  did not say if it was a useful exercise device or not.
Anyone else use these?   
Cant I just lose 10 lbs and double my quad size by using electrode
muscle stimulation with a 5-volt battery while slugging beers and 
watching football?!   

-Larry

    Rollers will also help you develop a smoother pedaling technique
    (more important of the two). I use a wind trainer because my
    attention span is in pico seconds (in this mode). I have to 
    watch TV and with rollers I'd constantly running into the wall.
    
                                :-)

    	I have both. Much better workout (IMHO) on the rollers.
    	But, you have to stay alert. Iffen you drift off mentally
    	you're gonna pay physically.
    
    	Another thing - you can't move around as much on rollers.
    	When my hands start to go numb, I have more trouble getting
    	them to "wake up" since I can't ride rollers well with just
    	one hand.
    
    	Scott

I also have both.  During the early months of winter, when not cross-training, I
ride the wind trainer to try to maintain a level of fitness.  The trainer requires
significantly less concentration so I can watch TV or occasionally read. 

As the season approaches, I ride the rollers to smooth out my pedalling stroke &
concentrate on improving my balance.  I listen to music so I can pay full
attention to the task at hand.

I sort of equate it with the free-weights vs. weight machine argument: the rollers
(like free-weights) seem to engage more muscles and require more attention to use.
Whether that's good or bad is up to you.

Ray

    	Larry,
    
    	See note 2.1034.
    
    	Some of the best rollers made.
    
    	Scott

I'm not sure if I should thank you guys or not!  
I think I'll buy the rollers because you all and a fellow
I ride with at lunch think its the way to go.
They are truely boring though ...
I should go back an look at this note to see if there
things to do to make it more interesting.

I still have not got any feedback on the rear hitch wind
trainers though.  Are they any good?

I think Chip is right.  Both are probably a good idea.
My attention span is only few microseconds longer than his.

-Larry

    
    Has anyone ever used the Optional Fan or Fork Stand  on
    a set of Kreitler Rollers. I know this stuff cost a few $$$
    but I'd be interested to hear feedback (and I'm sure Larry would 
    too.) It looks like one way to get a nice (but expensive) Fork
    Mounted Wind Trainer if you already own the rollers...
    
    /Charlie (seller of rollers in Note 2.)
    
    P.S.  Scott, where do you want your commission sent to? ;^)

    
    Another vote for rollers. Wind trainers ruin your pedalling style,
    whereas rollers enhance it.
    
    But, as for the comments on problems concentrating on other things on
    rollers, just give it time. You train 3 times a week on rollers, by the
    end of a month, you'll be riding them without thinking. I have no
    problem watching TV on rollers, and if you want to relieve the strain
    in your upper body, then riding no hands is not that much more
    difficult. I've even managed to take a jersey off while riding rollers.
    
    But, if you do buy rollers, make sure there's someone to start you off
    at first. If you're in a house by yourself and you're unsure on
    rollers, you'll at least need someone to hold the bike up while you get
    yourself going...
    
    Graham.

    I hear riding rollers is much more interesting than European TV
    anyway... :-)

    
    57 channels does not necessarily mean that you've got something to
    watch. I'll tell you what, we'll stop the BBC selling you their
    programmes and see how you get on.
    
    And there's naff all wrong with German TV on late Saturdays... :-)
    
    Graham.

    I have both an old set of rollers and wind trainer.  However, in deep
    winter my preference is to go to the YMCA.  X-Country skiing is
    probably the best activity of all, but I have found it difficult to do
    much of it with rug rats around the house.  
    
    steve

    Re; .104 Oh ya Graham... You pull "Are You Being Served" and we'll
             pull Bonanza!!!! :-)

    	No need to send me a commission. I did it out of the goodness
    	of me little heart. 8-)>
    
    	Scott

    
    
    Another good option in the winter months is sign up at a good gym. 
    Build some strength and muscle. A bit of weight training is essential
    for keeping your muscles and bones strong as everyone ages with time. 
    At the gym you also can get involved with all kinds of aerobics, ie, 
    aerobic classes, stationary cycles, stairmaster. None of this will 
    have anything to do with you pedaling style, but sure helps with 
    stamina and strength. I lift wieght year round and it has help my 
    climbing, endurance and speed on my bikes. 
    
    Shaw
    

    
    Re.106
    
    How says that Chip and myself rathole everything?  :-)
    
    Anyway, since Twin Peaks, the US has come up with nothing. And we even
    occasionally get cycling... :-)
    
    Graham.

    Nononono There's Northern exposure as well.
    
    Meanwhile we have generated Scavengers (choke), Gladiators (barf),
    and other streams of such rubbish that the thing I watch most while 
    pounding the hours away is recordings of the 90, 91 and 92 tour. 
    Theres about 60 hours of them now so repeteition is no problem...

I have a set of Kreitler fork stands but my wife is the one who uses them. 
I actually prefer riding my Mt bike on the rollers. I put on slick tire and 
away I go. I try my road bike but it required too much concentration and I last
about 15 minutes before I start getting headaches. The Mt bike with the wider
tires makes the rollers a lot easier to use and I can just relax and watch TV
while I am using them.

Dave

    I'll used to watch shows like Montel, Donahue, Winfrey, etc...
    
    I found this detremental to my training find the more stupid the topic
    (and guests) increased my cadence exponentially and was experience
    burn-out :-( Now it's HARD COPY all the way :-)
    
    Graham, obviously you haven't seen Miami Heat :-ppppppppppppppp's
    
     Chip

    
    
    Just an FYI.... Kreitler Fork Mount goes for about $65. The Headwind
    unit is $169. 
    
    /Charlie

This weekend was on the wet side so I decided to give my (almost)
new Kreitler rollers a chance.   Took a few minutes to get my
balance back but its really not to hard to stay up once you
get going.   
I found that they gave a fine workout without a fan.  I only
did a 30 minute workout and I worked fairly hard.  
I used to own a set of Weyless rollers.  I thought the Kreitlers
were more smooth and quite but I cant say that they improved
the roller experience any.

What did improve things was the cheapo Vetta heart monitor I bought.
The bike catalogues have been dumping the Vetta HR1000 because of
bad reviews no doubt.  Its currently selling for $55.  Thats a 
decent price just for the cyclecomputer component (which bicycling
mag claims to work very well).  
The computer came with helpful hints sheet that told me use an
electrolyte gel on the transmitter (the pharmacy said KY gel would do).  I tried
it out and found none of the fluctuation problems. 
I found myself going between 150-170 with very steady and what
appeared to be consistent readouts.   
By using the HRM I was able to do intervals with targets to hit
which made it much easier (less boring, more motivating) and a
better workout.  

An HRM with rollers is a must.  A may buy an additional mounting
unit for my road bike too!

Has anyone ridden the "new" Kreitler rollers -- the ones with a
smaller diameter "red" cylinder?  Colorado Cyclist has advertised
these as having increased resistence (without fan).  The price is
just below $200 intemediate between two other "standard" Kreitler
models.  Is it worth it? Any comments?

Regards,

Steve

One thing that I didn't see discussed in this string was the portability of 
rollers vs trainers.  How heavy are each of them and how much room do they take 
to store?  There was some mention about rollers that fold and I've seen trainers
that fold up.  I'm asking cause (a) I'd thought about the idea of bringing it 
to someone else's house to have some company to help with the boredom level or 
(b) I'm wondering about the ease (or lack thereof) of setting it up and putting 
it away for each workout...

And in reference to the note about joining a club - that was my first thought
but then it occurred to me that for about the same amount of money I could get
a trainer or rollers that I'd have for more than the 6 months of the member-
ship...course you don't have the variety...

Thanks,
Barb

    Hi Barb... All wind trainers are very portable. All rollers are
    very portable as well. They are generally light (aluminum frames),
    and as you mentioned, some are foldable. I guess portability is
    diminished by;
    
                    a) the size of your vehicle
                    b) attachments (which is more set-up than portability)
                    c) super-wazoo techno-gizmo software/electronics
    
    Chip

    As an alternative to going down to O'Neal's and pleading total stupidity, 
    I read many of the entries in this string.
    
    Anyone aware of any new 1995 wrinkles in rollers?
    
    I'm considering the purchase of one.  Zero experience on 'em.  A bit
    intimidated, but willing to give it a shot.  If "road rash" is what
    occurs outside after a crash & burn, what is it called when it happens
    inside ;-)?  Does pedal/bike choice make a difference?  I've got both
    Shimano SPD's (on a light Cannondale) and conventional (somewhat
    heavier Miyata). 
     
    My goal would be to hit the road in the spring in decent shape (a first).
    Any suggestions on models, roller training tips, etc. is welcomed!
    
    Bill

1. Practice in a hallway or doorway.  This way, you can put either hand out to
break the inevitable fall.

2. Look 8-10' ahead, at least at first.  Looking down will make you fall off.

3. Krietler seems to be the roller of choice, but they are also the most
expensive.

There was recently a whole thread about this in rec.bicycles.racing.  The first
two I've put to good use a few times this year.  It's almost 100% roller time
for me now, with salt on the roads and all...

Tim

                                          
   Go with either Krietlers or American Classic (If AC is still in business).
   I have a set of Krietlers and I am quite happy with them. They are expensive
   (~300 for the new Krietlers), but they are smooth and they don't break. 
   Most of the rollers offer by Performance or Nashbar are PVC rollers with 
   a 30 day guarantee. Krietlers are guarantee for 5 years and the rollers are
   milled Aluminum with precision bearings.
  
   I would highly suggest that you try to borrow a set to try it out first to
   determine if you are going to like it. Because after about 20 mins, I start
   to lose concentration and get bored. I would offer my set but it's already
   out on loan.

   As  for riding one, try it with toe clips first. Actually, it would be
   interesting to see someone get on a set rollers with SPD for a first try.
   I don't know too many people would even make that attempt after setting the
   bike on the rollers.

   As said in -.1 Look ahead and try it betwwen a door way first. Also, put a
   old rug under you if you are riding on good floor. Scrubbing those tire
   marks after you fall of really is a pain. Also get a stool to help you get
   on for the first time.

   Have fun,
 

   Dave

    Thanks for the words of wisdom.  Keep 'em coming!
    
    Stopped by Goodales last night and they carry the Advent line ($229). 
    Looked kind of cheesy, but what do I know!?
    
    AC has a 4 drum setup (Hybrid 4 - $280) that claims to add a more stable 
    feel in the front, vs. Kreitler ($361.50).  I can see the theoretical
    sense in that claim, but wonder if the "looseness" of the 3 roller
    arrangement is something that one get's accustomed to. 

    American Classic are good, the hybrid 4 is a highly recommended unit.
    Kreitler's are nice, should work well with a Merlin on it.
    
    steve

    Steve:
    
    I'm unclear on what a Merlin is, other than a bike brand.  Might it be
    some kind of stablizer?
    
    BT

    Only a joke, Merlin is a big $$$ bike.
    
    steve

    Doorways are a really place to start out with rollers. I tried a while
    back with clipless pedals.
    
    I didn't care for them that much because of what someone had mentioned
    about the mind wandering... Krietler also make the Killer Headwind for 
    some resistance.

someone mentioned putting old rugs under you, I agree wholeheartedly.
Also, I put an old towel behind the drive side to catch the occasional
oil spatters (I ride outside too, and have a heavy lube hand.)

Many times I ride on a carpet in frontof the TV, which makes for a decent
object 8-10' in front of me.  I like to watch basketball, 2 min commercial
every 4 minutes keeps me slightly more focused, and provides 'sets'.  To 
protect the carpet from burns from the elastic, I ride on an old desk top.

(My roller have an 'Elite' sticker on them, I guess thats the brand-name.
3 steel drums, with cartridge bearings.  They weigh a ton!)

--roger

    I'm looking for a wind trainer and noticed that some have variable
    resistence controls on the trainer and others have a control that you
    can use from the handlebars.  Am I likely to need/want to change the
    resistence frequently enough to pay extra for the remote control?
    
    Any suggestions as to brand?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

    I have had the Cateye Cyclosimulator for about 3-4 years now and
    really like it.
    
    Chip

>>  Am I likely to need/want to change the resistence 
>>  frequently enough to pay extra for the remote control?


'Doubt it.  It's easier to change your effort-level by 
shifting gears.

I've ridden one for years and haven't worked the resistance
controller but a couple times.

Save your money for a thirsty towel to catch all the sweat
that'll pour down when you start pumping.  And a LOUD stereo
to keep your mind off your burning legs.

\John

    Thanks for the info.  Of course, what would REALLY be great would be
    something like a LifeCycle trainer for your bike, where the resistence
    would be software controlled.
    
    Bob

    For me resistence is a must, but I rarely change it during the ride.
    
    Just shifting gears just doesn't give me the load I'm looking for
    during specialized sessions (on my trainer anyway).
    
    Chip

I did 50 minutes on the rollers yesterday, on my balcony, in the evening.  Nice
way to stay cool.  It was 28 degrees and I was comfortable in shorts and a
long-sleve jersey, warm socks (no booties) and long gloves.  I may start
training out there all the time.  I can certainly see the advantage of
resistance units since I was in the 53x13/14/15 most of the time without
expending a tremendous amount of effort. 

Tim

    My local bike shop only had a $240+ fluid/resistance unit available, so
    I ordered the resistance unit that Performance had on sale for $149.  I
    try hard to support my local bike shop, but their unit was too far over
    my budget.
    
    Bob

    RE: .133 $240 is too high, you should be able to pick it up for $200 to
    $220.
    
    steve

    
    What's better a wind trainer or a work stand?  is there a big
    differance?
    
    My husband and I got into MB riding a few yrs ago, we ride all
    summer/fall - but winter we both wimp out.  I'd like to get him a work
    stand or something alot that line so we can keep up the riding all
    winter.
    
    Louisa

>    What's better a wind trainer or a work stand?  is there a big
>    differance?
    
Better depends on your point of view I suppose, there is a HUGE difference.

Work stand is for doing repairs, 

Wind trainers allow a bike to be ridden in place, a-la stationary bike in a gym

;) For light family entertainment, watching someone attempt random repairs
is likely more interesting than watching them ride a stationary bike.

--Roger

    
    Hmm.. when I called a few Bike shops to price them out - I asked for a
    type of stand that you put the bike on and you ride the bike.  I asked
    them what they call them - and they told me, WorkStands.  Seemed to fit
    okay - :-0
    
    I guess I better go out to the stores and check them out - instead of
    calling.
    
    Louisa

>    Hmm.. when I called a few Bike shops to price them out - I asked for a
>    type of stand that you put the bike on and you ride the bike.  I asked
>    them what they call them - and they told me, WorkStands.  Seemed to fit

Rollers.

Looks roughly like:


   ---         ---                       ---
  /   \       /   \                     /   \
-----------------------------------------------
|                                             |
-----------------------------------------------

Often hinged in the middle.  Complete bike sits on top, the rear wheel on
the 2 'close' rollers (drums) and the front on the single one.   Elastic
band connects the (in this 'drawing') right rear and front drum.

--Roger

(Is 'rollers' an ameri-centric name?)

    My Performance wind trainer showed up last night.  The design of the
    unit has changed, but the assembly instructions didn't.  That added
    about 15 minutes to the assembly time.  The quick release on the wheels
    on my Peugot (I know, it's not spelled correctly) has a wider diameter
    than the trainer was designed for, but will fit securely in the cups.
    
    It seems to be well made, with no cheap looking/feeling parts.
    
    Bob

Are fluid resistance units any quieter or more reliable
than magturbo resistance units?

I never heard of fluid resistance before seeing the prev notes...

What I'd like to see is something with a larger contact roller under the
rear wheel that didn't spin as fast, I could see a fluid unit of some thpe working
well for that.

- Jim

    I just bought the fluid training and really like it.  It is very
    quiet and smooth and the stand is very stable.  I sold an old mag
    trainer as a result of trying this one.  I heard of problems early
    in cycle-ops production run that fluid was leaking, it has been
    fixed...I am sure it is warranteed. 
    
    The going price is generally 219.00, however Gearworks have them for
    $199.00...and 5% club discounts.  
    
    steve

A while back someone (in Merrimack?) was looking to buy or evaluate a set
of rollers or wind trainer.  Did they?

--roger

    Anybody familiar with Cycle-Ops Rollers?
    
    Opinions?