Conference noted::bicycle

You're right, most bike paths are poorly designed and maintained. Usually,
they are good places to get a flat from broken glass or to take a spill 
because of sand that should have been swept.

However, there is one shining exception that I can think of. The ski towns 
in Summit and Vail counties of Colorado built a bike path between the
towns of Breckenridge and Vail (35 miles). The well maintained path is 
about 8-10 feet wide and goes through the trees, besides streams and over
10,400 ft Vail pass. It actually attracts tourists and bike riders from the 
bigger cities of Denver and Colorado Springs. I'm sure that the businesses
of the towns have benefited from the bike path. I have even seen national 
teams training on it in preparation for the Coors Classic Bike Race. 

I would love to see more bike paths built like the one above.

                                         Keith

	I mentioned in another note the New York State Canal Recreationway,
	which is supposed to run between Albany and Buffalo when completed
	(~300 miles).  Sections I know are complete are a 40 mile section
	between Syracuse and Rome and another 40 miles between Rotterdam
	Junction and Albany.  There seems to be a lot done near Rochester,
	but I don't know details.  The sections I know about are old
	railroad beds or canal towpaths that were reclaimed by the state
	and paved.  They run along the (old) Erie Canal in most parts, and
	maybe even the currently used Erie Canal, and the Mohawk River.

	It's reasonably straight where I rode on it...

    
    	I'm not really familiar with it, but there is a bike path up
    in N.H. that goes along-side of I-89 for quite a stretch. Does anyone
    know more about this path? I've been meaning to find out more about
    it for a long time now but the only times I'm up there, I'm in too
    much of a hurry to stop and investiate. 
    
    /Pete

Sorry to say but I am quite familiar with this route.  Part of the route
that is available for bicycles is the old Rt 10 concrete road bed which is
decaying from neglect, it is also open to local auto traffic but not
through traffic.  Then you get to the bike path which is between exits 14 &
16.  It is about 6' wide.  There are spots where rocks are coming up
through the pavement which indicates that it was not put down with a great
deal of planning.  There are frequently bodies of rodents lying on the
pavement -- I don't know what they were killed by.  The Granite State
Wheelmen had a few rides on these a couple of years ago and were
unimpressed. 

The path was put there because I89 uses the old Rt 10 road bed between
exits 14 and 17.  Ahah, you notice the exit numbers and say, "what of a
path between exits 16 and 17"  There are three ways to get between exits
16 and 17: Methodist Hill, Eastman Hill, and "take the Interstate" (illegal
, of course).  The latter method is what is recommended by the local gas
station operators -- those two hills are (1) tough and (2) covered with a 
lot of loose rock so that when you do develop torque you kick stones.

The Franoconia Notch Bike Path promises to be covered with hikers and horse
manure so it won't be much better.

	If it's the one I think it is (the bike path along I-89 in the very
	general vicinity of the I-93 end (not that close, but that's the
	only landmark I remember), it is mentioned in one of those "20 Bike
	Rides Wherever" books on New Hampshire.  It was put in because the
	original path, having something to do with some nearby college, was
	cut off by I-89.   Or something like that.  I'll dig up the book and
	check.

    
    NVP is semi-active in planning the Lowell to Sudbury "bike path"
    that will use the old B&M railbed that kinda runs down 27, by the
    rotary, etc.  We consider the following important:
    	1. That bicyclists not loose their rights to use parallel roads.
    	2. That safety and maintinence be formost in the design process.
    Many of us are for a crushed stone surface, so that there will be
    no question of suitability for skinny tired bikes (ie. make it totally
    unsuitable).  Actually, we think of it as a recreational/fat tire
    bike path that we can use for cross-country sking in winter. The
    crused stone would be easier to maintain, keep the roller skaters
    and skateboarders off, and make a nice walking path.  - Chris

***Has anyone ever seen a bike path that's really suitable for bicycles?***

See my reply at 90.2. The Cape Cod Rail Trail, with one short exception,
forbids motorized travel. I seldom have encountered any but cyclists, and
often cruise it at 20-25 mph. It also lends itself to 5-10 mph Scenery See'ers
                                                                            

	So, where is the Knox Bicycle Trail?  Massachusetts publishes a
	tourism guide/map that shows it traversing the state, but State
	officials, including those in the office that publishes the map,
	deny any knowledge of it.

	Anybody have a connection in the State government or a newspaper
	who would like to investigate this obvious case of fraud?

	-LC

Re: Note 92.6 by EUCLID::PAULHUS -  Lowell bike path
    
>    Many of us are for a crushed stone surface, so that there will be
>    no question of suitability for skinny tired bikes (ie. make it totally
>    unsuitable).  

Chris:

I object.  Isn't this rather snobbish.  Many of us like to bike on a 
decent path and don't own numerous bikes.  Most beginners, who are 
quite likely to use the path, also own only a conventional ten speed.

If speed or accidents are a problem, then please treat the problem.

	DON'T TRY TO TURN THE PATH INTO AN ATB ONLY CLUB!!

That would justifiably give bikers a bad name since it's unfair to
most bikers and taxpayers.  And in the end, we all would lose.

P.S.	Who, officially, should I send my opinion to?

	Mike

    re. -.1
    	Mike,  We forsee a lot of use on this path.  Have you ever used
    a very busy bike path and been as quick and safe as using a parallel
    rural road?  The Oaks Bluff to Edgertown bike path comes to mind
    here.  A well packed crushed stone surface is suitable for low speed
    (under 10 mph) family/recreational bicycling, walking, jogging,
    etc.  There's no hope of getting them to spend the kind of $$ that
    would produce a path that's still smooth after a few winters (the
    rail bed would have to be recycled/cleaned for drainage). You are
    a competent cyclist - why do you want to use a path like this? 
        If we were truely rural, like the Cape Cod path near Orleans,
    or the MV paths near the airport, I'd say try for a high quality
    surface, but with the traffic we can expect on this one, my head
    overrules my heart.   - Chris
    ps. Jane Poole is our rep. to these meetings. Contact her.  - C

    Re: -.1, -.2
    
    I agree with Mike in favoring a paved path.  I own a ten-speed and
    don't look forward (i.e., with kids in college, can't afford) to
    acquiring an ATB.  And Rt. 27 is no dream -- narrow, no shoulders,
    rough in spots, and fairly heavily used by traffic moving at 45-50
    mph.  Not safe.
    
    There's nothing to prevent walkers and joggers from using a paved
    path -- most of us walk and run on paved roads as it is.  And if
    the subsurface preparation is done correctly (I know -- $$),
    maintenance shouldn't be harder or more expensive than with a crushed
    stone path -- easier, even, as clearing brush and leaves from a
    stone path can deplete its surface.
    
    Perhaps we'll have to settle for what we can get -- if anything
    -- but a bike path I can't use is no bike path at all, and I don't
    consider Rt. 27 a viable alternative.
    
    Where do I drop the two cents?
    
    Mac.

    If it's scenery you're after, try the Provincelands bike trail within
    the Cape Cod National Seashore at Provincetown.  It runs 8-plus
    miles from Rt. 6 to Race Point Beach, Herring Cove, and Bennett
    Pond.  Strictly scenic (and worth it, once you get beyond nose-shot
    of the Provincetown dump) -- its curves don't tolerate much
    speed.  When I rode it a couple of Fridays ago I didn't encounter
    another cyclist along its whole length -- I don't suppose the cold,
    damp, west wind and threatening late afternoon clouds had anything
    to do with it... :-)  Found a good pair of sunglasses for my trouble,
    to boot.
    
    Mac. 

Chris, all I ask is that I be given the choice of where to ride, and 
allowed to make that choice myself.  

We have faught this battle with cars, and just won it in our 50th 
state.  Let's not renew the battle with different classes of bicycles.


To you all, am leaving for vacation to bike in WA and BC tomorrow.
Thanks for advice in note 76.

	Mike

I second the nomination for the P-town bike trails.  On the negative side they
are only about 3 feet wide, have occasional sand patches, and have a very
light sprinkling of traffic.  The positive side is that they wind around, up 
and down hills, even thru two bike tunnels, and are great fun to ride.  They 
really don't go anywhere - just connect the town with the beaches, and so 
exists just for their own sake.  

In June I rode them on a 30lb 3-speed rentie and had a blast.  No toe clips,
no mirror, no computer, just me, an upright solid steel frame, and seat wide
enough for two.  Funny thing - I felt like the Wicked Witch of the West in the
twister scene in the Wizard of Oz. 

cbs

There are some very interesting bike path attempts in some parts of the
country, each more or less successful in its own way.  Two of the more
memorable ones are: 

In Los Angeles, there's a path on the side of a dried out river bed.  It
runs about 15 miles with a few accesses to main roads.  The river bed seems
to be more of a flash flood drainage ditch about 100 yards wide.  Elevated
a good bit from it and well paved is the bike path.  To the side of the
path is a chain link fence and then a horse path and then another fence.
The horse and bike paths merge only to go through underpasses for main
roads.  Of course, there is no shade for the bike path; the vegetation is
desert shrubbery.  I rode it a few years ago with the LA Wheelmen when I
was out there for DECUS. 

In Buffalo, NY, there are a few paths that go for miles, intersecting side
streets and main roads.  At the main roads, there are some interesting
spiral structures for climbing above the road and descending on the other
side, about 1.5 turns each.  It felt nice but seemed dangerous.  There are
a few other overpasses with simple long ramps and fairly sharp turns.  The
paths themselves were sometimes painted with lane dividers which were often
ignored.  Sometimes there would be 3 lanes, 2 for bikes, one bidirectional
for runners, equally ignored.  The paths seemed to have a right of way when
they got to mediocre side streets, I never tested this theory, however,
without stopping and having a look-see. 

    Last night I was reading EFFECTIVE CYCLING by John Forrester.
    According to his section on accident statistics, bicycle paths
    have an accident rate 2.6 times that of the average road.
    
    Remembering all my encounters along the Charles river with meandering
    cyclists and roller skaters wearing headphones, I could believe
    the number.  If you add in the low branches, blind turns, and drinking
    fountains that protrude into path, it's suprising that it isn't
    worse.
    
    I think that bike paths aren't worth the trouble to use if they aren't
    made right.
    
    
    RE: bike path surfaces...
    In Acadia National Park (coastal Maine) there are carriage paths
    that are surfaced with crushed stone.  Me, my bike, and all weighed
    about 260 pounds but I had no problems with handling on medium width
    tires (1 1/4").     
    
    If you really want to spend money on pavement, it would be better
    spent on making the roads a few feet wider.  That way the side streets
    get the stop signs, and the cyclists can ride in greater safety
    than on a bike path.  (I don't mean bike lanes; I mean wider real
    lanes).  
    
    		May 'flat' only refer to terrain,
    
    					Jeff Bell    

Some 3 or four years ago, I rode from Central Mass to Syracuse NY. One of
the funniest/saddest experiences I had was the "Bike Path" thru Albany NY.
Seems the town fathers had some extra road paint left over at the end of
some fiscal planning period, so they invested the paint in creating a "Bike
Path". A line alongside US Route 20, is all it was. Every intersection had
a logo painted on the road that identified the "path". 
The result?
No cars came close enough to the "path" to blow away the bits of metal,
glass, limbs, etc etc, that would collect there, thus the path was an 
open invitation to punctures.
Needless to say, I took my chances with the cars and trucks on the road.
The Erie Canal path has a lot of promise. I had hoped to ride that to Syracuse,
but it was only in the planning stages then. Hopefully it will be complete
in a year or two. Then if we can only find that Knox trail, and get them
connected.....hmmmnnn   Coast to Coast bike trails are right around the
corner!!!!!!!

    Oh, I don't think _all_ municipalities' "bike conciousness" is that
    bad.  My first attempts to take up riding was in the Twin Cities,
    Minneapolis-St. Paul, Mn; was a very pleasant experience.
    
    	1. Myriads of in-town lakes (lakes, not ponds) with nice paths
    	   around all.  Though shared with skaters, the riding was still
    	   not too bad.
    
    	2. Traffic laws are adhered to...
    
    	3. Drivers are COURTEOUS.
    
    	4. Many streets have bike lanes; treated the same as car lanes.
    
    	5. Almost forgot.  Bike trails all over the countryside...
    
    Dwight

    re: .6
    
    At the risk of picking nits:
    In order, that right of way belonged to:
    The Old Colony RR,
    which merged into:
    The New York, New Haven & Hartford RR,
    Which was taken over by:
    Conrail.
    
    Don't believe it was ever B&M, though they do operate the remaining
    stub in Lowell.
    
    I believe the right of way currently belongs to the Commonwealth.
    
    Having walked it some, it would make a nice bike trail, except a
    bit narrow. (or where it is still in use...(:-)).
    
    Dave (from-the-RR-notes-file-who-explores-old-trackage).
    

To pick up the thread on bike path usage from note 3026:

Do people really try to get cycling exercise on popular bike paths? Unless most
of what you want to exercise is your 500-foot sprinting ability, I can't see
how you can ride hard on one (during nice weekend days especially).

The paved paths on which I've ridden with my family (including two young
children) are enjoyable for a 10 MPH stroll, but I wouldn't try to go fast and
get a workout on one -- too much traffic (of all kinds). For me personally,
this is neither good nor bad, really, since I'm comfortable riding on the road
with auto traffic. 
						-- Tom

    I avoid the bike/jogging paths (that's what the signs say) here in
    Plano, Texas for that very reason.  Anything moving > 10MPH is in
    danger of running over the walkers, families on bikes, pet exercisers,
    beginner cyclists, etc.
    
    Bob

    
    
    		YES...Bike paths are for real.  They are usually built
    	for recreation, NOT competition.  They are excellent for taking
    	your family out on a nice day, but not for head to head hammering!
    
    		CMD
    

    
    I have a wonderful time on bike paths.  I wish there were more where I
    lived.  I love a nice ride on the path and doing alot of people
    watching.  I do go early so I do try to avoid the mid-day cruch - but I
    have a great time.
    
    

    despite my previous note, i do enjoy bike paths. there is 1 about 40
    minutes from my house (Cannon Valley Trail) that is 20 miles long. it
    gores from red wing minn to cannon falls mn. in the summer, if you're
    on the trail by 8-8:30, you can usually avoid th crunch of familys and
    walkers.
    
    there is a trail in wisconsin  (elroy-sparta trail) that is crushed
    limestone, so you don't have the bladers to worry about. and again, if 
    you're out early enough youcan avoid most of the family riders.
    
    when i want speed and distance i chose the road, when i want a
    leisurely ride (with occasional spirts of energy, i'll do a path.
    
    	ann
    

    
    If everyone rode, walked, skated in tandem there would not be an issue 
    with varying speeds.  Those who use the bike path as an alternative,
    pollution free method of commuting should not be deterred as a result
    of pedestrians/bladers/bikers hogging up the trail.    
                                                             

    
    	We run into the same thing trying to walk through the aisles at
    	work.  People walk 2-by-2 and 3-by-3, sometimes up/down stairs,
    	and it seems like a big deal to them if they have to move over
    	to let someone through.
    
    	I don't wonder why people around here are such bad drivers ...
    	heck, they don't even know how to walk correctly.
    

The problem with "ON YOUR LEFT" is that sometimes people move to the left!

    bike path-impaired? :-)
    
    Chip