Conference noted::bicycle

    
    	In order of decreasing cost:
    	  1. Recumbent bikes (had to get that in!)
    	  2. "Bummer" sling seat - sort of like sitting crosswise on
    a mini-hammock.  Puts you forward of regular seat position, messing
    up knee-to-pedal relationship.
    	  3. Good standard seats such as Avocet.  May be enough if your
    present seat is 1/4" foam over formed sheet metal like my Sears
    Free Spirit came with!  Make sure the seat has some serious give/flex
    at the peak pressure points where your pelvis hits it.
    	  4. Seat pads such as the Grab-On foam pad (my favorite) or
    the Spenco gel pad (feels like you are sitting on a bag of worms,
    or Jello, if you prefer).  Can make a significant difference.
    
    	Chris who rides a recumbent mostly for the comfortable seat,
    and has a "Bummer" on his winter bike.

    
    	Bicycle seats get more comfortable the more you ride.  Well,
    that's the effect anyway.  I don't believe that there is a product
    on the market that "solves" the problem without some kind of a
    compromise, such as the poor positioning that Chris mentioned. 
    Certainly the Avocet style of "Anatomic" seat will give better support
    to the old sit bones, particularly for women.  Although .0 didn't
    ask, chamois shorts ware a big step in comfort i.e.the chaffing
    problem, though the seat will be just as hard.  I think the only
    solution is to ride regularly and build up your daily/weekly mileage
    gradually, say 10 % per week, until you get to the mileage you want
    to be doing.   Of course, the IDEAL sit(uation) is to keep riding
    all winter so the old calouses don't soften up too much :-)
    
    			     ^   <-    *WHAT* ?
    
    	Reg
    
    		("Some" tolerance for pain is necessary)       
    
    

    
    
    I've had a recurring problem with saddle sores for years. Tried
    about every saddle made, Avocet, Sella Turbo, Concor, Prestige,
    Assos, ad nauseum.
    
    Then Pearl Izumi came out with their Flolite saddle. I've been using
    it for the past two seasons with no more problems. It's got a colloid
    under the leather, which, like Reg sez is a bit like sitting on
    firm Jello, but it's really not all that noticeable. Flolite is
    what is used in downhill ski boots to make them conform to your
    feet.
    
    Still, Reg has another good point, if you like the saddle on your
    old bike then sell your old one with the new saddle. If the old
    one is a PITA (ork ork) then try either a Spenco pad (cheap bucks)
    or the Flolite (not so cheap bucks, around $40)
    
    Good luck,
    
    CdH
    
    

Two thoughts here that you might want to keep in mind:

1.	A good saddle will support you at the bones, not at the center.
This is why a soft saddle is less important than a properly designed 
anatomical saddle.

2.	Went to a GEAR seminar a couple of years ago given by a very 
knowledgeable MD.  He said that is is very important that a woman get a 
womans saddle because a woman sitting on a mans saddle will be sitting 
on her ovaries, which is not a good practice.

	Mike

    re (.3 re what reg sez)
    
    	I don't do Jello (firm or soft).  I don't have experience with
    worms either, though I imagine that any seat feeling like that would
    keep me standing for the whole ride.
    
    	Ah hAA !  That's it !  Take the saddle off so you can't sit down,
   result - no more saddle soreness and ENORMOUS LEGS in only 20 miles
    a day.

    	    	Reg
    
    

here's another $0.02 worth.

Moving the saddle from a bike where it was comfy to a new bike MAY
sometimes not work.  I actually found a case where this was true.
It's because the newer bike had a steeper seat tube and stiffer rear
triangle.

I use Ideal's rebour treated saddles on my touring bikes.  They are
solid leather and "pre beaten" to simulate 500 miles of use.  I still
softened them a bit and they do hav the side-effect of changing the 
color of your cycling shorts (good reason for black shorts).  They are
also spendy, about $45 to $50.  They really make rain pants disgusting.

Adjusting your saddle height will also make a saddle feel different
so assure that you have the right height before settling on a choice.

While I'm not into pain there is a quote that ought to be preserved somewhere:
at the beginning of the current baseball season, Sparky Anderson was
commenting on one of his pitchers and said, "A little pain don't hurt."

ed

    
    	I must confess: I have, in fact, never sat on a bag of worms.
    	But I have sat on a Spenco seat pad, and that is what came to
    	mind. [ Would S. Freud say anything about engineer's distaste
    	for the feared 'can of worms' type projects affecting my thoughts?]
    
    	Chris, who rides in comfort (except for uphills).

    I didn't see anyone mention the Selle Royale seat.  I have the women's
    version.  I've been using it for two years and have never been sore.
    It is the "jello" variety, by the way.
    
    	-Ellen

I've seen folks happy with all of the choices mentioned so far 
(including a couple of folks apparently happy with no seat at all, as 
previously mentioned. One chap had no seat but had retained the seat 
tube. Takes all kinds...........). My current favorite is a rather 
discontinued model from Bikecology, rather similar to the Avocets (hold 
the Jello). Have two of 'em, on two bikes, third bike is outa luck.

Anyway, a previous reply mentioned chamois shorts - they are nice, since 
they don't have that knot/seam right where the most pressure is, like 
blue jeans have. If I go out for a short ride (i.e. single digit 
mileage) with the neighbors, I always get grief for wearing shorts for 
such a short ride, but I don't care - once you try shorts, you may never 
ride wearing anyting else (well, maybe shoes, jersey, etc...).

In the last couple years, I think they've improved the shorts - 
Performance bicycle now sells shorts with a polypropylene pad instead of 
chamois. I find it *much* more comfortable than even the chamois shorts, 
which are great already!
                                       Tall in the saddle,
                                       ken

    I have always fancied Brooks leather saddles, sorta heavy and require
    breaking in, but comfy.  For them with wider pelvises, specifically
    the B72.
    
    What seems to count in a seat is:  pelvic support in the right places;
    absorbency or tranpiration or some such (hence, synthetics don't
    cut it);  balance of resiliency and stiffness.
    
    When you're really pumping, the seat is no more than a centering
    device;  your posterior floats slightly off the top of the seat,
    and insides of thighs take any loading.  I think the pelvic support
    counts when you're tired and taking it a little easier (or out of
    practice so the art of "floating" ain't there.
    							John

    
    	I'm going to suggest something that, although it is very
    unconventional, did the trick for me.
    
    	In the summer of '78 I bought a Pugeot U08 10 speed bike down
    in Tempe, Az. I had never riden a 10 speed bike up to that point
    and like you, I found the seat rather uncomfortable. I decided to
    rely on inginuity rather than money to solve the problem, and this
    is what I came up with. I bought a sheepskin seat cover first. This
    helped but was not totally the answer. Next, I got to thinking that
    since a water bed is so much more comfortable than a regular mattress,
    why not apply the same principle to the bike seat? I bought your
    normal, everyday hot water bottle, put it on the seat, and then
    put the sheepskin cover over that. I had to play with the amount
    of water to put in the bottle but once I got it right it was the
    most comfortable ride you could imagine. So comfortable, in fact
    that I was able to ride all the way from Phoenix, Az. to Montpelier,
    Vt. without once wishing I had a better seat. As I said, it's
    unconventional, and some "serious" riders might give you some funny
    looks, but I figure If it works..........

Another unconventional saddle idea.

My older bike with the steel wheels came with an uncomfortable and 
inexpensive saddle and my body told me that the problem was that is was 
supporting me at the center rather than at the bones [see my note 67.4, 
first point].  As a (very successful) experiment, I removed the vinyl 
skin and inserted 2 pieces of good foam carpet padding so that they 
stopped at the center, leaving about 1.5 inches unpadded there.  Put the 
vinyl skin back and, now, that saddle is very comfortable; as good as 
the saddle on my Univega Specialissima.  No obvious change is visible, 
no saddle covers.

A cheap and effective solution for the do it yourselfer.

P.S. 	I once rode for a couple of hours on the Spenco "jello" saddle
pad -- it was ok for a change but couldn't stand (no pun intended) it on
a permanent basis.  My feeling is that one would be better off spending
that money on a good saddle. 

Re: .11 - water bottle seat

I think someone has done this commercially now; sells a saddle with 
built in water bags sort of the same position as the Avocet style pads. 
Don't recall where I saw it advertised......

                                 ken

    Re: .12	I have a late 1800's bicycle seat with a gap in the
    		center;  at that time they had a sexist rationale, it
    was supposed to be a woman's seat designed to avoid genital stimulation
    (!).  I have never measured it or sat on it to see if it provides
    adequate pelvic support.
    				J

    
    re .14	Oh NO !    Not another mention of "things like THAT"
    please, somebody tell the moderator to hurry up and delete that
    "offensive" reply or we'll get thrown off the system.
    
    	Reg
    

It wouldn't have been so bad if you hadn't included the picture like this:

		(!)

Did you have to be so graphic ?  We KNOW what such things look like
already.

/Eric_the_gagster

I recently saw one of those `seats-without-a-middle' in, of all places,
one of those catalogs they give you to read on planes.

Can anyone, women particularly, comment on whether they are more comfortable
than the tradition saddle?

My wife just can't seem to find a comfortable saddle. Her latest is a
women's avocet. It's better, but not good enought that I can sucker her
into long rides...

Thanks

bob

I thought I had responded to an earlier note about seats, but guess I 
hadn't. The following is a true story. If you don't believe me, ask Greg
McConnell, he'll vouch for my honesty.

Last summer, my wife was preparing for the Pan Mass Challenge, a 200 mile
in 2 days ride for the local Children's Cancer Hospital.
Now Betty's personal best prior to that was a 50 mile day that put her down
for three days. But she was determined to do this, and when she's determined
to do something, there's no stopping her.
She cannot bend her left leg completely, and so she must ride upright using
a heel on the left pedal. As a result, she does a lot of upper body wagging
back-and-forth.
As the day for the ride approached, she asked me to adjust, then to replace
her (need I say BICYCLE?) seat.
It was then I noticed that she was riding on a Man's Avocet. I went to my
favorite, but sometimes fallible , bike dealer (George, who else) and George
set her up with a Woman's Avocet with a Spenco cover. The very next morning,
without ever having ridden the new seat to test it, Betty took off from
Sturbridge for Provincetown!!!!!
She arrived, tired, sweaty, bored, elated, shocked, etc etc etc...but she
didn't have a sore bum! I couldn't believe it!
There's a lot to say for having the correct width seat, and a good cover
not to mention a very determined wife.



Right Greg?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=gary=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    There has been a great deal of discussion of late as to the
    "engineered" quality of not only seats, but bicycles in general.
    The philosophy (from most engineering schools) is that the world
    is trying to improve on an already poor and incorrect design.
    The matter of fact points are that bicycles are probably as good
    as they'll get in their current configuration. The emphasis is
    continually placed on weight of frame or gimmicks (index shifting).
    Is anyone of the opinion that radical engineering diversion might
    be the answer? My personal belief is the wheel DOES require re-
    inventing here. If we can out a man on the moon, why can't we
    make a seat that doesn't require an anatomical "break-in?"
    
    Chip

> If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we make a seat that doesn't
> require an anatomical "break-in?" 

Oh, but we can.  I suggest you spend half an hour on an Avocet GelFlex 
saddle.  It's anatomically designed, with thick and thin nylon shell as 
necessary, overlaid with Spenco gel, and covered with lycra.  They
guarantee it to be the most comfortable seat you've ever sat on, or 
they'll take it back.  $25 from Nashbar.

As for "engineering diversion" in re: saddles, there have been hundreds,
maybe thousands, of designs made over the years, some successful and
most not.  Remember the Bummer?  Comfortable, oh, my, yes.  Practical
for racing or fast recreational riding, no, no, no!.  There have been
seat designs that don't resemble what you know as a saddle at all, such
as a "cavalry" design that consisted of two small padded areas that fit
under the ischial tuberosities and support the inside of the thigh a
little forward, with nothing in the middle.  There have been actual
*sling* saddles like a hammock, with one end attached to the stem area
and the other hung from a framework that stuck up over the rear wheel. 
Human ingenuity has not been at all lacking in seat design, I assure
you. 

Today's generic saddle design, with its wider or narrower variants, is 
the product of all that experience, i.e., it's what *works*.  That 
doesn't mean that all saddles are good - most are lousy, because what 
seems to be most saleable is aero shape and light weight, which means a 
lot of hard nylon.  *sigh*

- Dick

    
    For those of us who still use a leather saddle, just because it's 
    traditional ... 
    
    You can break in a leather saddle in a couple of hours with some
    of that leather oil (sold for baseball gloves and the like) and
    a rubber mallet.  
    
    Remove the saddle from the seatpost, and loosen the tension adjustment.
    Rub in as much oil as you can, top and bottom, and go to town with a
    rubber mallet on the top side. Keep applying oil and hammer liberally
    (oh, oh, the "L" word again) while you watch TV for a couple of
    hours (try Morton Downy Jr, it'll get you in the right mood to use
    the hammer). Keep loosening the tension adjustment as you work.

    You'll end up with a much softer saddle. Bring the tension back up a
    bit and remount the saddle to the bike. Keep the leather taught with
    the tension adjustment but allow enough slack for the leather to
    conform to your rear end over the next few months. 
        
    When you see how much pounding you can do with a hammer and still
    have a fairly rigid hunk of leather on the seat, you'll be glad
    you didn't use your rear end for the entire process. 
                      

    	Someone earlier asked if anyone had experience with the seats that
    are 2 separate pads but there were no replies.  I'm thinking of ordering 
    one of these to take care of a coccyx problem.  Anyone know anything
    about these seats?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    I talked to someone who had tried one of them about 6 years ago
    and he liked it less than the conventional saddles and said it
    felt weird but, then, he didn't have a coccyx problem to solve.
    
    Everything new feels weird anyway.
    
    ed

	I rode a bike with one of these seats (briefly) a while ago.  It
	seemed like it would be OK if you wanted a upright, sit-on-the-seat
	position.  Grab the tops of the bars and use the "safety" levers
	for the brakes.  I think this is the market that that seat is
	targeted to.  If you want to straighten your legs a bit and lower
	your back and get into more of a "real" biking position, you need
	to tip the seat forward.  Once you do that, it doesn't hold you
	up anymore, more or less just acts as something to lean on.  This
	means that almost all your weight is continuously carried by your
	feet and hands - not good.

	But - if you're a casual rider, and the seat solves a problem, it
	might be just what you need.

	chris

    
    Thanks for the explanation.  This saddle was designed by a
    casual cyclist, it turns out, and it does solve a problem.
    But I'd never ridden one and wondered why they didn't catch
    on if they were such a good idea.

    I will use it on a mountain bike on which I have a rather upright
    position anyway so maybe it will work.  I should get it this week and
    I'll let you know if it's any good.
    
    thanks for the replies
    
    George

The guy who invented the seat does a video-tape series on
corporate-goodness kind of stuff that I saw a couple weeks back. The 
vid. was on changing paradigms. Like, why much of the Swiss watchmaking 
industry went down the tubes when digital watches came along - they 
didn't try to adapt. Anyway, his contention was that cyclists weren't 
buying his seats 'cuz of 'resistance to change' and 'old paradigms', and 
he sort of implied that we were all stupid, stick in the muds not to 
have already bought one... Myself, I always sorta assumed I didn't have 
one because it seemed to be built for upright cruisin' more than 
anything else, which I do relatively infrequently.....

Anyway, the vid. was pretty good despite the 'buy my bike seat or you're 
dumb' plug.
                        ken

    Yeah, he's a DS himself, I mean, we [some of us] have switched to
    step in pedals, click shifting, 6, 7 [or even 8] speeds, aero
    seat posts, ATB's as the technology has shown itself to be
    worthwhile.  I don't think the saddle proved itself.
    
    ed

    
    Ed,
    
      I'll give you the step in pedals and the click shifting (although not
    sure about the 8-speed), but I'm afraid that we'll have to disagree
    over the aero seat posts. They look very nice, yes, but as to their
    'aerodynamic' abilities...
    
    Graham.
    

    
    Graham,
    
    This notes file is full of on-going (nay, a steady stream!) of
    testimonials as to the effectiveness of the aero seatpost.
    (I'll try to get the references for you.)
    
    Most notable is the need for a drogue chute to give an assist
    to brakes when you are decelerating from the resulting stratospheric
    speeds achieved thereby.   :-)
    
    -john

    Yeah, it must that the benefit of the aero seatpost is just not
    appreciated in Scotland's frigid climate.
    
    ed

    	BTW, has anyone seen any info on drogue chutes lately.
    
    	I'm thinking of getting an aero seatpost and don't want
    	to be caught without adequate stopping measures.
    
    	Scott

Didn't it transpire that the full benefit of the aero seatpost isn't achieved
until above 65mph, which is, coincidentally, the fastest speed a cateye 
computer can register?

There's a new computer out from Sigma Sport which reads speeds up to 200mph.


Rod

    Let me guess, the John Howard model?
    
    ed

     One important factor is being overlooked here (re; aero-sp's).
    That is the preverbial, cycling common law, fraternal requirements,
    
     That is "It's important never to forget that it's not how good you
    do, but how good you look". 
    
     The aero seat post IS A MUST! I love mine for those long desents.
    
       Chip

    I seem to remember that the problem with the aero-seatposts in the
    scottish climate is that their shape lends themselves to the formation
    of ice around them and this in turn causes problems when the time comes
    to deploy the drogue shute.  The work round consisted of either fur
    lining them of a small heater driven off the dynamo (the same one used
    to raise the snow plough and in hot climates to power the cooling fan)
    but for some reason this never took off....

    re "never took off"
    
    Dammit, it's not a wing, it's a seat post.
    
    ed

    Well, since this is the SEAT topic...

    My wife has a sensitive um... "part where the female person meets the
    bike"...  In a futile attempt to find a seat she likes we've tried a
    half dozen different seats including the Vetta Gel womens, Avocet
    womens touring, Spenco Gel womens, and even the Terry seat with the
    hole in the shell beneath the cover (which I figured would finally be
    the solution - but wasn't).  Right now she's using an Avocet Gel
    mountain seat which is the most comfortable she's found so far.  She
    even has a padded sheepskin cover that she uses.  
    
    Last week she saw an ad for the E-Z Seat (the one with two pads
    separated by a gap.  I got one (I even got the snazzy sheepskin covers
    for her!) and decided to give it a try the other night (she was at
    school so I could play a little) - it was NOT a smashing success!  I
    couldn't find any way to get comfortable, it hit me in all the wrong
    places, and I was always either sliding off forward or it was digging
    into the back of my leg - depending on seat angle...  has anyone tried
    one of these with success?
    
    I'll be putting it on her bike tomorrow and see how she likes it.
    
    If this doesn't work I'll probably try one of the TRICO pads, which
    unlike the Spenco aren't supposed to squirm - its supposedly a
    different material...  One of the local (small custom shop) folks
    recommends this pad and says he and his wife routinely do centuries on
    their tandem and find the pads to enhance the comfort.
    
    Other ideas?
    
    Also, has anyone else experienced problems with wrecking the gel in the
    Spenco seats?  I smash/move/deform the gel in these seats in about 800
    miles, call Spenco, get authorization, send the seat back and get a
    replacement.  This has been going on for 3 years - I've had them
    replace 6 (yup 6) seats.  They keep giving me new ones, but they ALWAYS
    tell me they've NEVER heard of this before!  I have 2 seats and just
    keep rotating them but its a hassle.  Anybody else using these seats
    and encountering problems?

    
     I'm not sure if these are suggestions or statements, but...
    
     One of either two things is going on (or both is a possibility).
    One is that your wife is not putting in the amount of mile required to 
    get used to riding. It will never be ONLY the seat on the bike. Part
    of the "equipment break-in" is biological. No way around it. The second
    thing could be her fit to the bike. Fairly obvious input I know, but
    maybe (just maybe) you'll have to deviate from the recommended adjust-
    ment techniques and customize the fit until it works...
    
     The other wild card could be an anotomical problem... If the other two
    things don't quite sound right, I'd consider a medical opinion.
    
        Chip

    
    The gel has a reputation for shifting or breaking down in
    these gel-padded saddles.  My friends who use them report
    that phenomenon, so it can't be as unknown as the company lets on.
    
    It must be very frustrating for your wife.  At this point, I'd
    almost suggest an orthopedic or other specialist have a look
    (not saying there's anything wrong, just to pinpoint the requirements
    that a saddle must have to make her comfortable).
    
    Women, like other humans, vary greatly in what kind of seating
    suits.  Some of my friends absolutely require a female-anatomy
    (wider) saddle; others (chiefly racers) go out on Flites (!) or 
    Rolls or Turbos.  The woman cyclist on last Saturday's 240-mile
    ride used a Turbomatic, and said it suited her just fine.
    
    So go for an anatomy check... and good luck!
    -john

I have to agree with Chip. The bicycle seat is the most troublesome piece of 
equipment for inventors. It can't be made comfortable and efficient at the same
time on normal bikes. Many people ride recumbents for the reason of a 
comfortable seat. 

But on a normal bike, the seat is a pain. The pads and gel only help spread the
pressure over a wider area on your anatomy. I've found this also makes the
pressure points more defined. I moved to a Turbo seat which is hard and is 
narrow yet I found it to be the most comfortable seat I've used. The reason is,
is that I can move around on the seat and changed the hot spots/pressure points.

Over all the most important factor is getting your body used to the saddle.

Tips...

If the front of your pelvic area is the cause of some pain. Try tilting the nose
of the saddle down. This will take some of the pressure off. Although it
transfers weight onto the arms.

Tom 

    There are some new saddles on the market, at least featured in
    magazines with a hole right in the middle of the saddle, specifically
    designed for women.  Ask a top notch shop for assistance.
    
    steve

Like I said before, I think the Brooks leather saddles suit me and could be
worthwhile trying.  They are made of good old natural hide and I don't call
them "green" for nothing...

If you spend two days riding on them in the rain and then leave them in the
shed to dry out you come across the main drawback of these Paragons of Posterial
Pulchritude - they easily get a nice green mould on them!!  I started biking
with a B15 Swallow which I passed on to my wife - she found it the only really
comfortable seat she ever had and it was (according to the experts) totally
wrong for a woman.  However, many riders (men and women) in the UK used to
swear by them.

Perhaps we can persuade Rod to cross-post the entries on saddle comfort from
the Raid file........

Well, it seems that Cleanliness is next to Painlessness as far as avoiding
saddle sores is concerned. That means washing the contact area frequently,
using antiseptic cream, and washing shorts frequently too.

However, slightly off the comfortable saddle topic. I intend to try a 
Turbomatic but I'm poor this month so my butt'll have to wait.


Roddy

    From my experience, what your wife is going through is VERY common
    This summer I've ridden with several different women and eventually
    the conversation turns to saddles and how uncomfortable they are, and
    how much pain we're in by the end of a ride.

    When I started riding longer miles a year ago I switched from some
    generic-made-for-a-man saddle to a Vetta Shock Absorber (VSA) for
    women.  Initially, I thought it was great!  For once, I was sitting
    on my BUTT.  i.e. the saddle was wide enough that my butt bones (there
    must be a more technical name for those) were supporting me.

    But after some amount of riding, the pain moved forward.  (I don't
    have to elaborate, do I?).  After a long ride, even a shower can be
    painful.  This isn't fun.  And like I said, I'm not alone.  Every
    woman I've talked to is going through this.

    I've tried the VSA saddle and a Vetta Gel woman's saddle.  My mountain
    bike came with a Ritchey saddle which is really nice, but doesn't
    really support me well.  If I start doing a lot more riding on that
    I'll probably change it out.  I've also bought a number of different
    shorts designed for women.  Nothing has solved the problem.  I've
    done a lot of miles, so it's not a beginner's problem.

    I was hoping to try the new Terry Ti racing saddle for women.  I
    figured that if anyone could get it right, it would be Terry.  I hope
    I have more success with it than your wife did.

    I disagree with others opinions that there might be something wrong
    with your wife's anatomy which is causing her discomfort.  I believe
    there's something wrong with the manufacturers for not designing
    quality equipment specifically for women.

    Sue

    One other note, my wife has tried the gel saddles also, and has
    absolutely hated them.  Currently she uses an Avocet leather Woman's #1.  
    (The Vetta VSA comes in Leather, although they are hard to find)
    
    Sounds like there is a large potential for money to be made here, any
    CAD people want to start designing a new saddle?
    
    steve 

"part where the female person meets the bike"
    
    Also known as the weight bearing or central part of the HBI*.
    
    ed
    -------------------------
    * HBI == Human Bicycle Interface

    Whew, finally back from the holidays...
        
    re .39:
    >One is that your wife is not putting in the amount of mile required to 
    >get used to riding. It will never be ONLY the seat on the bike. Part
    >of the "equipment break-in" is biological. No way around it. 
    
    Typically she rides a couple times a week, doing anywhere from 25 to 40
    miles weekly total.  Since her average pace is pretty relaxed (~10-11
    mph) this represents several hours on the bike.  She rode on a trainer
    over the winter, partly to keep her HBI (as defined by Ed Fisher in
    .47) in shape.  So far this year she has about 350-400 miles on the
    road (riding weather up here didn't start until mid-April for her) and
    had been using the same seat all winter and this season.
    
    >The second thing could be her fit to the bike. Fairly obvious input I
    >know, but maybe (just maybe) you'll have to deviate from the
    >recommended adjustment techniques and customize the fit until it
    >works...
    
    She was originally fitted to the bike when purchased, and a few minor
    changes were necessary (stem and handlebar).  I've checked it as well
    as I'm able - fore-aft adjustment for knee/pedal position, stem length,
    seat height for proper leg extension, etc.  She prefers to be a little
    closer to the handlebar than is recommended, which causes her to sit
    more upright, but she insists she's more comfortable that way.  I
    suspect the more upright position actually lets her keep her weight
    further back (off the sensitive areas) without putting additional
    weight on her arms.  While trying the different seats I kept the other
    measurements as close as possible so the only variable was the seat...  
    
    >The other wild card could be an anotomical problem... If the other two
    >things don't quite sound right, I'd consider a medical opinion.
    
    I hadn't thought of this one, but I'll talk to her...
    
    re .40:
    
    >The gel has a reputation for shifting or breaking down in these
    >gel-padded saddles.  My friends who use them report that phenomenon, so
    >it can't be as unknown as the company lets on.
    
    Just got the two new Spenco seats back from Spenco last night.  I like
    the Vetta VSA I'm using but it is NOT as comfortable as my previous
    Spenco for longer distances.  Back to the Spenco rotation!  
    
    re .41:
    
    >If the front of your pelvic area is the cause of some pain. Try tilting
    >the nose of the saddle down. This will take some of the pressure off.
    >Although it transfers weight onto the arms.
    
    We've tried a lot of different angular adjustments (getting pretty good
    after 6 seats!).  We  usually start out with the seat horizontal, then
    iteratively ride and adjust.  What generally happens is we tilt the
    front down a notch at a time until she feels like she's sliding forward
    and having to hold herself back with her arms, then go back one notch. 
    This seems to be the position that takes the LONGEST to cause
    discomfort...

    re .42:
    
    >There are some new saddles on the market, at least featured in
    >magazines with a hole right in the middle of the saddle, specifically
    >designed for women.  Ask a top notch shop for assistance.
    
    I saw one of these in a local shop last week.  I'll have to check, but
    I believe it was a Sella of some sort.  Also on a ride last night there
    was a woman with one.  She really liked it.  I had thought the Terry
    would do essentially the same thing, but according to my wife the Terry
    saddle was very short and the cutout didn't go far enough forward. 
    Consequentially, the front of the HBI where the pain is generated
    wasn't over the cutout.  It may work great for a smaller person though.
    
    re .45:
    
    >But after some amount of riding, the pain moved forward.  (I don't
    >have to elaborate, do I?).  After a long ride, even a shower can be
    >painful.  This isn't fun.  And like I said, I'm not alone.  Every
    >woman I've talked to is going through this.

    Yup.  You've described it perfectly from what she's told me.
    
    >I disagree with others opinions that there might be something wrong
    >with your wife's anatomy which is causing her discomfort.  I believe
    >there's something wrong with the manufacturers for not designing
    >quality equipment specifically for women.
    
    Well, on the good side the E-Z seat completely avoids the discomfort. 
    We're still trying to get the adjustments just right but she rode twice
    over the weekend and had no problem where the HBI is.  UNFORTUNATELY,
    despite many adjustments if we set the seat so she isn't sliding off
    the seat forward it gouges the back of her legs.  If I tip it far
    enough forward not to gouge her legs, she has nothing to sit on and is
    sliding forward off the seat.  But, she likes it enough to want to keep
    it so apparently the HBI discomfort is worse than the leg discomfort!
    
    I have a hunch that this seat is intended for people who ride with VERY
    LITTLE leg extension.  If the seat was low enough, her leg would never
    get straight enough to have the front of the seat hit it.  But, we'll
    keep trying different adjustments...  We'd both sure like her to be
    able to ride more comfortably.  Maybe I'll pick up one of the saddles
    with the actual hole in it and see if that works...  what the heck, its
    only money!

Re:  back a couple


	I got a Vetta VSA leather saddle from Nashbar; got lucky, 'cuz it
happened to be on sale, too!  I like it a lot, my HBI is worth the extra
bucks.  ;-)


Brian

     Sounds like a very tough problem. I know this is a relative statement,
    but the amount of miles being ridden is not very much.
    
     In all fairness (and this is relative as well) the 'ole seat ain't
    built for the male anotomy either. From time to time I experience
    discomfort, e.g. pain in the groin (skin abrasion) and even a little
    abrasion around the seat (HBI) area. I don't know why this happens 
    only sometimes. Sometimes my neck gets stiff, sometimes my shoulder
    sockets get sore, sometimes... These can occur on short training rides
    and not on centuries... Go figure.
    
     If I didn't love it so much, I wouldn't put up with a lot of incon-
    veniences the sport delivers... Thank GOD I'm obsessed!!!!
    
     Maybe that's POSSESSED?!!??
    
          Chip

>    ...  For once, I was sitting
>    on my BUTT.  i.e. the saddle was wide enough that my butt bones (there
>    must be a more technical name for those) were supporting me.


    "ischial tuberosities" is the official name for the sit-bones.
    They're part of the pelvic girdle.

    Somebody mentioned sheepskin covers.  The problem with adding
    more padding is that it distributes the pressure.  There are some
    parts of us that were just not meant to bear weight.  Keep the
    pressure on the bones.

    -Jeff Bell

    My wife has discovered that wearing a thin sanitary pad provides a
    big comfort improvement. Since she usaully rides short distances
    at a leisurely pace, I'm not sure how this would work on longer,
    harder rides.

    Re; parts of us not designed to bear weight... I find my nose
    can be painful if I use it for landing gear :-).
    
      Chip

    Here's a thought -- does your wife ever stand up while riding?  Or just
    raise up a little to get a little blood flowing in the "HBI" area?

    If I'm doing a ride that keeps me in a sitting position for a long time
    (like a long climb), I have to raise up off the saddle periodically to
    get some circulation, or I'll pay for it later with a lot of pain in
    my seat.


    re: .48
    
    >She prefers to be a little
    >closer to the handlebar than is recommended, which causes her to sit
    >more upright, but she insists she's more comfortable that way.  I
    >suspect the more upright position actually lets her keep her weight
    >further back (off the sensitive areas) without putting additional
    >weight on her arms.

    How is the bike adjusted to get her closer to the handlebar?  Is the
    seat moved forward?  Or does she use a stem that put the bars back
    farther?

    I'm wondering if moving the seat back would help, if it's moved forward
    specifically to get her closer to the bars.

    My road bike is VERY comfortable for me, including the seat (a women's
    Sella Italia Turbo, which is not a gel seat).  I never seem to have any
    problems with seat discomfort (unless, like I said earlier, I don't
    stand up once in awhile to keep the blood flowing).

    On the other hand, on our tandem, I have the same type of seat, but
    my HBI area used to get sore, plus I'd have numbness or nerve-related
    pain down the backs of my legs, due to the seat.

    We measured my road bike vs the tandem in every direction we could think
    of.  The only thing we couldn't duplicate was how far back the seat was
    relative to the pedals.  The angle of the downtube just wasn't the same.

    SO...  my husband found one of those little thingamajigs that Performance
    sells, which goes between the seatpost and the saddle, and allows you
    to move the saddle farther back (or forward, if you turn it around).

    WOW, what a difference!

    So maybe her seat is too far forward relative to the pedals??

    - Diane

    re -.2:
    
    I agree that it isn't a "lot" of miles but I think we're caught in a
    Catch 22...  she won't do more miles because it isn't comfortable - she
    can't get more comfortable because she doesn't do more miles...
    
    The only way I can see to get past this is to get her something that is
    comfortable enough so she can start doing more miles.  Since its a
    specific pain problem rather than a generalized fatigue/tiredness/sore-
    ness due to long distance I still figure finding the right seat will
    improve her comfort (and mine!).  Fortunately, the bike shop I've been
    dealing with has two women as partners, both of whom are riders, both
    of whom have been through the process of trying to find a comfortable
    seat.  They let us try the seats for a week hoping we'll eventually
    find one that works!
    
    re -.1:
    
>    Here's a thought -- does your wife ever stand up while riding?  Or just
>    raise up a little to get a little blood flowing in the "HBI" area?

    She doesn't stand, but she does raise up and shift around periodically.
    
>    How is the bike adjusted to get her closer to the handlebar?  Is the
>    seat moved forward?  Or does she use a stem that put the bars back
>    farther?

    The seat fore-aft position is set to position her knee directly above
    the ball of the foot with the pedals horizontal.  Her stem has been
    changed to one that is slightly shorter and higher than the original. 
    The net result is to have her sit up straighter.  She has a TREMENDOUS
    resistance to a position that causes her to be at all stretched out. 
    Past experience with moving the seat back caused her to put more
    pressure on the front of the HBI and increases the onset of discomfort.
    
    >On the other hand, on our tandem, I have the same type of seat, but my
    >HBI area used to get sore, plus I'd have numbness or nerve-related pain
    >down the backs of my legs, due to the seat.

    She gets it in the HBI and right inside the shoulder blade.
    
    >We measured my road bike vs the tandem in every direction we could think
    >of.  The only thing we couldn't duplicate was how far back the seat was
    >relative to the pedals.  The angle of the downtube just wasn't the same.

    >So maybe her seat is too far forward relative to the pedals??
    
    Could be.  I think once I get her regular seat back on the bike (we're
    still playing with the EasySeat) I think I'll try some more moving
    around to see how it affects her.

    No one has mentioned shorts yet.  Has she tried different ones?
    I actually had a pair once that created problems (serious ones!)
    within the first 20 minutes on my bike.  Right now I have a couple
    of pairs of womens Tinley shorts and they are great.
    
    _kathy

    the other thing you can do to decrease friction in that area is
    to apply lubricating jelly before riding.  i was surprised at ho
    much that helps.
    
    cheryl

    
    A possible source of more suggestions is Elaine Mariolle's
    book on women's cycling (though by now the comments in these
    replies have probably gone beyond what she has to say!).  
    
    I've glanced at it, but don't recall if she discusses seating
    discomfort... probably does.
    
    -john

    Hmmm.. I read Elaine Mariolle's book ('The Woman Cyclist', right?).
    I'm sure she talked about the HBI problem, but unfortunately there
    were no revelations in there for me (regarding that topic anyway,
    it was an excellent book and I'd highly recommend it).

    re -.2
    I have a friend who used to use some type of lubricating jelly to
    try to alleviate the pain.  However, it didn't work for her.  She
    stopped using it and hence was able to stop wearing underwear under
    her biking shorts.  That was a real help (tho she's still not
    pain-free).

    That's another idea for the gentleman who originated this string
    (sorry, I don't have one of your replies in front of me, and I'm bad
    at remembering names!): is your wife going underwear-less under her
    biking shorts?  I found that made the HBI more comfortable.

    Sue

    re .56:
    
    >No one has mentioned shorts yet.  Has she tried different ones?
    
    She's tried several different pairs, with different types of pads -
    from the Paramount with virtually none to ones with the 4-layer pad
    using the synthetic chamois...  she says all the padded ones feel the
    same!  I don't think she's tried any of the Tinley's though...
    
    re .57:
    
    >the other thing you can do to decrease friction in that area is
    >to apply lubricating jelly before riding.  i was surprised at ho
    >much that helps.
    
    She hasn't tried this yet.  I almost always use an antibiotic cream
    when I ride longer distances but I haven't been able to convince her to
    try this...
    
    I'm going to have her sit down and read all these replies this weekend! 
    Since I can't convince her to try things MAYBE y'all can!
    
    >I have a friend who used to use some type of lubricating jelly to
    >try to alleviate the pain.  However, it didn't work for her.  She
    >stopped using it and hence was able to stop wearing underwear under
    >her biking shorts.  That was a real help (tho she's still not
    >pain-free).

    So far I haven't been able to get her to wear shorts without underwear. 
    She says the feel more comfortable with the underwear (and since it
    ain't my HBI how can I disagree?).  

    BTW: I talked to a woman tonight who has ridden many miles on one of
    the Terry womens seats with the cutout in the shell and SHE SWEARS BY
    IT!  Clearly, different strokes for different folks!  It certainly
    LOOKS like it should work!
    

    
    	RE: padded shorts
    
    	Be sure they are women's.  Men's have a center seam that I find
    	is uncomfortable.  Also, they sell 'skins' to wear under cycle
    	shorts which act like underwear, but are more comfortable.  
    	My prefer Pearl Izumi's [sp] shorts
    
    	/mjf

I endorse the omission of regular underpants.   Or at least try 
another brand of regular underpants.

I take my time when choosing new gadgets ... my acquisition rate
has averaged about one per year, beginning with: an Avocet seat,
a pair of toe clips, a helmet, a pair of Lycra and chamois shorts
(in yearly spring splurges). 

My in-store test for the shorts was to wrestle my body into the 
Lycra and then to gently press the hard earned HBI sore spots. 
When I realized that there were no seams near my sore spots,
light dawned over Marblehead. I bought the shorts, my HBI sore
spots evaporated within two weeks, and I was additionally elated
that the pant legs stayed down near my knees and didn't climb.
That pair is ten years old, the chamois seams are fragile, the
elasticity is gone from the fronts of the legs, and there are
holes from my Saturday-the-thirteen accident ... but I'm still
reluctant to discard them.  Two years ago, I added a newer pair
to my wardrobe, Lycra and poly-fleece.  I alternate between the
two pairs, washing them between uses (in the washing machine or
in a hand sink).  No creams, liners, or underpants come between
me and my chamois.  A turning point in my thought process was to
admit that I didn't wear stockings (neither garter type nor
panty-hose type) while biking, that perfume was wasted after 20
miles, and that Mom would probably never know that I wasn't
wearing any underwear. **

When happenstance has me biking without the bike shorts, the 
HBI sore spots return promptly ... right at the seams of my 
underpants!  Specifically, where the cotton crotch insert seams 
meet the elastic at the leg openings.  All of my underpants are
the same size, shape, and color, with seams in the same places,
so it's easy for me to put the blame there! 

If a woman insists on wearing regular underpants under biking 
shorts, she should at least have a variety of underpants, with 
seams in different locations.

** Mom found out ... it's OK!

That's what I love about cyclists -- they can blithely talk about stuff that
would make others blush.  ;-)


Brian

    >That's what I love about cyclists -- they can blithely talk about stuff
    >that would make others blush.  ;-)
    
    As replies have been coming in I've passed them along to my wife... 
    finally, the other evening she asked me "JUST HOW SPECIFIC ARE YOU
    BEING IN THERE!!!?"  "VERY", I replied!  Anybody who reads these notes
    will immediately know you if they ever see you!  :^)

    This whole discussion is so timely!

    After our bicycle club ride yesterday morning, we were standing around
    in a parking lot visiting.  Our conversation turned almost immediately
    to women & their saddles!

    One man's wife had just got a new bike, but was complaining about the
    saddle making her sore.  So this guy wanted recommendations from the
    women who were present yesterday.

    The two other women present both had tried the Terry seat, and both
    thought it was too wide.  What I hadn't known until yesterday, was that
    they found it too wide in the horn as well as in the rear part.  I
    thought it was just the back that was too wide.  (I've never ridden
    one myself).

    Both of these women opted for the Flite titanium rail saddles.  Ouch!
    Those have always looked too narrow for me!  Plus I used the price to
    convince myself that I don't even want to try it.

    There were many tales by the men too, of their saddle woes.  We were
    all laughing hysterically, partly at the specifics at the conversation,
    and partly at the fact that here we all were standing in a parking lot
    talking about ... ahem ... crotches!  We were trying to figure out how
    to write it all up in the club newsletter, but we figured it would
    lose a lot in the translation and just sound like our club had a lot
    of perverse people show up for this particular ride!

    - Diane

    "talking about ... ahem ... crotches!"
    
    Yup, makes you all sound like a bunch a preverts or something.
    
    But when you talk about the HBI, people just think you're another bunch
    a techno-weenies.
    
    ed
    :-)

 >>   "talking about ... ahem ... crotches!"
    
 >>   Yup, makes you all sound like a bunch a preverts or something.
    
	I've been waiting for this conference to get interesting again...
    
    Graham. :*)

What goes around comes around -- this string was funny for me too, because
about a year ago just after I'd gotten my new bike I was asking a coworker
about all this stuff and she went through all the ins and outs of what to do
and not do with seats, shorts, etc.  After a while, we realized how funny this
might sound to others nearby!  Thanks Ed for coming up with the HBI, you're
right now they just think we're weird.  ;-)

Diane -- what club do you belong to?

Seriously though, I'm *glad* we can discuss this stuff because it IS important.
If folks aren't comfortable they won't have fun, and the only way you find out
is by talking to others.


Brian

    
    The other day I saw this TV add for these seats they called the 
    'Wonder Ride'. there is this Spring between the seat and the seat
     post, they claim that it will smooth out the ride. 
     I don't think it's something that I'd want to try on my road bike 
     or even my mountain bike for that matter. But for recreational riders
     that prefer hybrid riding, it might be worth looking into. 
     The price was only $19.xx somthing, money back garuntee. 
    
     Shaw :-)
    

    >Diane -- what club do you belong to?

    Colorado Springs Cycling Club  ( here's where I duck!  Our club
    president is also a DECie and I'm sure he'll read these notes --
    good thing he has a good sense of humor!  He wasn't at the ride
    Sunday so he missed out on the conversation. )

    Well, my wife was back on the Avocet Gel seat for last night's ride. 
    Immediately afterward I had her point out to me EXACTLY the area of HBI
    (better to be a techno-weenie than a pervert!) experiencing the pain
    AND relating it to contact point on the seat...  It turns out that her
    problem area is contacting very front of the saddle horn.  I suspect
    this is why she thought the Terry was too short - it has a shorter horn
    than the Avocet.  
    
    The contact point on this seat has no padding - its a hard plastic nose
    piece screwed onto the front of the seat.  The seat disassembles so I
    may see if a little judicious grinding/cutting/modifying on the shell
    can help.  

    
    Interesting.  Again, everyone's anatomy is different, but one's
    body should not be coming in contact (at least with any pressure)
    on the front tip of the saddle (ouch!).  Believe me, if my anatomy
    came into such contact, I would know it on the Turbo-Matic, which
    has an "aero" plastic nosepiece.
    
    I know you may have looked at this already, but could she be sitting
    too far forward on the saddle?  (Could the saddle be too far back?)
    Just a shot in the dark.
    
    Good luck.
    -john

    tip the saddle a tad?
    
    if that's too much, tip it a smidgen?
    
    ed

>    Interesting.  Again, everyone's anatomy is different, but one's
>    body should not be coming in contact (at least with any pressure)
>    on the front tip of the saddle (ouch!).  
    
    I finally got tired of all this fooling around on the road and stuck my
    wife on my trainer last night with the intent of getting some REAL
    empirical measurements of where just what was hitting exactly which
    part!
    
    On her Avocet seat I determined exactly where her HBI was contacting
    the seat... IT ISN'T THE TIP - ITS 3-3.5 inches BACK from the tip!  Now
    I know why the Terry didn't work for her - the seat was shaped
    differently, was shorter, and the cutout in the shell didn't extend far
    enough forward!  Her contact point was in front of the cutout...
    
    >tip the saddle a tad?    
    >if that's too much, tip it a smidgen?
    
    I tried following Ed's advice and tipped the seat different directions
    both a tad and a smidgen, and found that it changed the amount of
    pressure between HBI and seat but not position - unless I tipped it far
    enough that she was sliding one way or the other...
    
    I also had her try some other seats to compare - a mens Spenco touring
    (didn't support her at the butt bones), a Vetta VSA (same pressure
    point), and even the old leather seat that I used years ago (this one
    she said would prevent complaints of pressure on the front because the
    butt bones would be so sore it wouldn't matter!), and even the Easyseat
    (which she likes because it completely prevents the pressure problem if
    we could get it adjusted so it doesn't dig into her legs)...
    
    The GOOD news is that now I have REAL measurements that we can take to
    the bike shop and compare against the seats with the hole in them.  If
    we find a seat with a cutout that covers (or rather uncovers) the right
    area we'll give it a try!
    
    BTW: Ed, is a scoash larger or smaller than a tad?

    yes

    and now for another stupid question:
    
    are you quite sure the frame fits her?  sounds like a very strange
    positioning on the bike.

Just wanted to add my two cents worth on comfortable seats.
I recently purchased a new bike that came with a Selle Turbo.
After riding for 10 years on Brooks leather my poor derriere
didnt know what hit it!  Ouch.  10 years ago I went through
a couple of "anatomic" saddles and others as well and came to
the same conclusion then as I am doing today.  Nothing. NOTHING
is more comfortable than a saddle that comforms to you instead
of vice versa.
-Larry Cohen

    Agreed there alright.  Back in May I thought my 190 gm saddle on the
    5500 was really comfy, then I rode 1800+ miles on my old ideal
    saddle (solid leather).  I'm still trying to readjust to the 190 gm.
    My HBI is rejecting it.
    
    ed

    Well, we have a SEMI/SORT-OF/KINDA success at last!  After trying all
    the adjustments we could think of we haven't been able to get the
    Easyseat to work as hoped.  I think if you ride with enough knee-bend,
    so you never extend your leg fully, this seat is fine since it only
    hits the back of the thigh when the leg is extended.  
    
    So, back to the Avocet womens seat, which was the previous most
    comfortable one.  As I said earlier I determined where the HBI was
    making "contact" with the seat.  Using this information I peeled back
    the seat cover, gel innards, etc to expose the shell in the area, then
    I removed shell material in the area of the contact, put everything
    back, resecured the cover, and she tried it Monday evening.  So far,
    she says it is pretty good, and is more comfortable the previous.  Only
    time and miles will tell, but I'm hopefull!  We'll know more this
    weekend after she does 50 miles on Saturday and 30 on Sunday (depending
    on weather!)
    
    Thanks for the input and advice.  I"ll report further results as time
    goes on!

    
    	Wasn't too happy with the stock Vetta seat on the H400, so I went
    	back yesterday and picked up a Serfas Tailbones gel seat. Much
    	more comfortable ... adds some extra padding to make up for the
    	lack of it in my butt.
    
    	Need an adjustment, though ... seems like it should be a little
    	farther back on the rails, and I'll have to tilt it back just a
    	bit since I seemed to be re-positioning myself back on the seat
    	a little too often this morning.
    

    
    Shawn,  
    
       The desease has got you too;-) This will never end, you will be
       buying/upgrading on your bike forever! But this is what makes it
       fun. Just like guitars and cameras and skis and ....whew
    
    Shaw

    
    	I think I passed the $1K mark yesterday ... would have been $1200
    	if I'd gone with the roof rack instead of the Euro Shuttle, so it
    	could be worse.
    
    	And you're right ... I'm not done yet, but I think I have enough
    	to keep me going for awhile.  Well, except for maybe a Bass Worm
    	to smooth out the shifter.
    

    Shawn, just be careful to follow the "rules of adjustment". Just
    because something may feel better it may not be good for you...
    
    Chip

    
    	There are "rules of adjustment"?
    
    	Was that a poilte way of saying RTFM?  8^)
    

    naw... it means the fron of your knee should either bisect the pedal
    spindle or not exceed one centimeter (front or back) when holding the 
    pedals at the 3 o'clock (parellel with the floor) position.
    
    Hope this helps (oh it never hurt to RTFM) :-)
    
    Chip

    
    	That's good to know ... I'll have to take a look.
    

    
    Excuse my ignorance, but what is RTFM?
    
    Shaw

    Wording modified to protect the author... ;^)
    

    -1 very good!

    
    I must be dumb today.. I guess I can figure out some of it but 
    I am still struggling with RT part. 
    
    Shaw

    
    	The title in .88 had it ...
    
    	... read the "friendly" manual.
    

    
    Oh is that all, I am embarressed now, as I came up with a few 
    translations which were all dirty. ;-)

    Shaw, Shaw, Shaw, we gotta talk son.  

    -1 just avoid the acronysms :-)