Conference terri::cars_uk

    The new Ford Scorpio does indeed look revolting.
    
    In fact, I don't think any of Ford's new line up except the Mondeo look
    very aesthetically pleasing.
    
    The Rover 100 looks crap. The 'metal' grille they put on late Metro's
    looked disgustingly ridiculous.
    
    The Mini Marcos is foul.
    
    The Vauxhall Tigra and RAV4 look disgusting also.
    
    The new Rover 400 is unadventurous and boring (but then again, that's
    the kind of people it's being marketed at).
    
    There are plenty others, but I can't think of them at the moment. Give
    me a while :-].
    
    Cheers,
    Dan
    P.S. Oh yes, the Nissan Bluebird.... *HYUUUUUKKKKKKK*

    
    Cavalier Coupe's.
    
    'nuff said.

    No No the japs started it. Ford are just following suit but don't
    seem to have actually looked at what their computers have designed!!!!
    
    Matt
    :^}
    < 

    I think the back end of the new Vauxhall/Opel Omega is bloody awful;
    very American. It's rather like that back end of the new Scorpio, but
    this one surely wins the ugly contest hands down.
    
    Laurie.

I have mixed feelings about the Scorpio; one side of me says that it's
pig ugly, the other praises Ford for attempting to be a bit different.
There's no excuses for its rear end, though!

Chris.

    >>attempting to be a bit different.
    
    Restyling the front and rear end of the Granada. Yeah, woopee, great
    move by Ford.
    
    [okay they've done a little more than this, granted!]
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Call that a bumper?! More of a ... ermm.... well, I dunno actually.
    What *is* it exactly?!

re .6

No, I think you're right, body-wise.  If you look at the doors, and windows in 
particular, they're pretty identical to the out-going Granny.  I've got a bit 
of a soft spot for the Granny, and I think it's a shame that it was replaced by 
such a hideous monster.  Still, similar remarks were bandies about when the 
Sierra was unleashed, but other manufacturers quickly followed suit with their 
"jelly-moulds".

    
    What about the front body-molding (it's at the front of the car, so it
    could be a bumper, but well, errr, hmmm, I wonder) on the Fiesta Si
    then? With those oh so sexy round fog/driving/dysfunctional lights set
    into it. Almost as bad as the fog lights on the Subaru Imprezza. They
    don't match the car's styling at all. And then there's always the new
    Merc, looks like Mercedes use the same software package as Ford.
    
    Mind you, at least these cars provoke a reaction. I challenge anyone to
    spot the difference between an outgoing Cavalier and an incoming
    Vectra.
    
    That Scorpio though, man that is one *ugly* mother!
    
    Clive

    Matt... agreed. I know exterior wise the Scorpio is just a restyle (as
    you say, the doors and windows look identical), but I know the interior
    has also been redesigned and, as for the suspension/engine/etc. I can't
    comment. I was presuming everything 'under the skin' is the same? Or
    *is* it really a new car?
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I like the shape of the rover 100 (particularly red, with seat covers).
    
    Mind you I'd prefer an Astra Sport TD in yellow.
    
    Mr. Hip

re .12

Would that be a diesel, as well, Chris?

    From Vauxhall brochure (read optomistic *;-})
    
    	Astra 1.7TD hatch (Sport) -
    
    		Max Speed - 107mph
    		0-60 mph  - 12.5secs
    		30-50(4th)-  9.0secs
    
    Soooo...not too quick...but that yellow sure is a sexy colour *;-)
    
    Helpfully,
    Kevin.

Didn't Ford once do a 1.3L Capri (or was is 1.1?)  Wow, outstanding
performance from that motor!

Chris.

I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned the 2CV yet.  That thing must
be one of the motor industry's most hideous creations!

Chris.

    You can't blame that one on the Americans, the French are to blame for
    that!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

I can if I feel like it!

Chris.

    The Renault Espace F1 isn't pretty....
    
    but who cares if it'll do 1-124 mph in 6.9 seconds :-)

    Rover are getting BMWesk grills now...They're German.
    
    Chris
    
    re.12  yep, how did you guess ?  :-}

>    re.12  yep, how did you guess ?  :-}

why are you talking to yourself...?

Chris.

    I mean't "re .13" ...It's been one of those days again.
    
    Chris

>    I mean't "re .13" ...It's been one of those days again.
       ^^^^^^
Oh dear, etc.  :)

Chris.

    re .21
    
    
    ....All the quicker to receed into the background then!....If the topic
    is going to center around ugly vehicles, then maybe we should open it
    up to all makes, all years, all countries.
    
    
    		My vote goes to the early 80'ish Datsun(nissan) B210.  A
    real dogs breakfast after the good bits have been gobbled.
    
    
    Rod(on the other hand I think the the XKE will probably go down in
    history as the worlds classiest car.  I doubt that modern aerodynamics,
    fuel economy, or safety monstrosities will ever allow another car
    like it to be built!)

    Most Jags, up to about 1967, were lovely cars. There were a few
    exceptions, so I suppose I'm talking about the sporting ones.
    
    Loz$had_a_few_in_his_time.

    
    Hands off the Hipo! :^)
    
    Personally, I think the 3 door Tipo (without those rear quarter lights)
    looks much worse than the 5 door! 
    
    Mark

Nissans.


Nuff Said.

    
    I remember reading in one of the motoring mags that Ford has purposly
    made the new Scorpio look 'typically' American. The reasoning behind this
    was to prepare the European market for the onslaught of American designed
    and built cars in the near future.
    
    Graham

    re .31, Yup I have to agree. Must have been a momentary lapse in
    Management control that let the 300zx get out, all the others are just
    so un-inspired and bland.
    
    Sadly, due to their reliability, they won't fade away quickly either.
    
    
    
    What's that car Wayne and Garth drive?  Now that's ugly !
    
    
    paul

    Not forgetting;
    Ford Anglia,Austin Princess,Morris Marina(Ital),Renault9+12,
    Austin Allegro,Peugeot 305 and Hillman Avenger.
    
    According to my Dad.
    

>    What's that car Wayne and Garth drive?  Now that's ugly !
    
It's an old Honda Civic, I think...

Chris.

Nah, it's an AMC Pacer.

Matt$who_had_a_corgi_toy_of_one_when_he_was_a_sprog.

>>> Nah, it's an AMC Pacer.
    
    ...that's where Ford nicked the design of the New Grannie front end
    from !!
    
    G.

You may have a case, there!

    No amount of preparation will ever make me accept American styling.
    
    Laurie.

The difference between the Omega and the Scorpio, for me, is the light 
clustering.  I happen to think that the front of the Omega is quite nice (In a 
kind of Viva droopsnoot sorta way), and the back is acceptable, as the lights 
are in clusters at each side.  The Scorpio however has this little band of 
lights just above bumper level.  Apart from this not being particularly 
practical/useful for other roadusers, it's also very American, and as a result, 
very ugly.  I would suggest that the Americans keep their cars, and if any of 
our importers/manufacturers try and force them on us, we should quietly take 
them aside, and kill them.

Why are all these manufacturers intent on putting as much coloured metal on the 
back of the car as poissible?  Why do they all have to have these hideous 
slabbed rears?  Yeuch...

Matt$Yankophobe.

    I agree with Matt's comments on styling. The fad seems to be more
    loadsa metal and itsy bitsy lights... the most stylish rumps I've seen
    in a long while are good old Ferrari, Porsche 928/911, the latest Honda
    Prelude (wow!)... but the Ford's just got it all wrong.
    
    And the Escort... the early versions of the latest body style (and the
    light clusters that I believe all the Escort Cosworths get) looks just
    right - nice. Then in the recent restyle they 'blobbified' the Ford
    range, including the Fiesta and, most noticeably, the Escort. The new
    Escort really does look purely disgusting.
    
    IMHO
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    SAAB900 (privious model)
    
    I thought it looked odd until I owned one.
    I loved it but had an accident and had to write it off.
    Looked for a replacement but could not find one, settled with
    a 9000 turbo, I still miss that odd looking car.
    
    m.n

I've always thought that the '900 was unnecessarily ugly; nice car
to drive, but a bit sore on the eyes!  Still, as they say, beauty is
in the eye of the beholder...

Chris.

    Remember what we used to say about the old Volvos. "Practical but ugly"
    or something like that.
    
    What about the new VOLVO 850?
    
    Now I think this is a nice looking car. VOLVO seem to be moving in the
    right direction. They obviously have a different CAD SW supplier to the
    other manufacturers.
    
    I think Ford designed their Scorpio to sit in traffic jams on the M25,
    because the front of it looks *issed off.   

    >>> I think Ford designed their Scorpio to sit in traffic jams on the M25,
    >>> because the front of it looks *issed off.   
    
    like it ! however, shouldn't it morph into a happy looking shape when
    it sees a bit of open tarmac ?
    
    G

    
    Re .45
    
    Nah, it's a FORD! :^)
    
    Mark
    
    PS Presumably Volvo's CAD system still can't handle curves, though!

    re: 46 ...PS
    
    You have just identified the problem. Once a manufacturer gets a Cad
    system that can handle curves, it all goes down hill from there on.
    

    
    It's all matter of taste.
    
    In my books the Mondeo's the best looking car Ford have made for years
    as is the Calibra for Opel/Vauxhall.
    
    Of course, I drive a boxy Rover :^)
    
    In other words, boxy or curvy doesn't guarantee a good looking car.
    
    Mark 

    
    re:.0 (been away for a few days, hence the delay in my opinions being
           thrust upon the masses!)
    
    The Scorpio is downright ugly as stated in a few previous comments.
    The front is bad enough, but the back end looks like a pimp-mobile from
    California (straight through lights across the back, very thin etc.).
    
    It must be a bloody good car technically for 'em to have sold any so far.
    
    Chris.

    
    Come on guys, you're all missing the basic reason why any manufacturer
    brings out new models.......people buy it simply 'cos its different -
    its new and if you drive one other people envy you. So making it look
    radically different may lose a few more conservative customers
    (unlikely as those drivers will still feel comfortable with their Fords
    etc) but may win more new customers simple because its different.
    
    JBG

    Sure, there's different, but it's not that everything different is
    definately going to work that way.
    
    And I for one haven't heard anyone say the new Scorpio looks 'really
    nice and different... I really like it'. And Scorpio owners themselves
    don't count :-)
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

Anyone else heard the conspiracy theory, w.r.t. the Scorpio?

A lot of the Scorpios on the roads don't have any dealer stickers on them.  
(I'd back this up - I've seen 2 or 3, parked, and they were all "un-marked")  
This could be because of fussy buyers (come off it, they bought a Ford!), or it 
could be because they haven't been sold through a dealer.  i.e. Ford are giving 
their employees Scorpios as company cars, hoping that they will become a fairly 
popular sight on the UK roads, and eventually it will catch on.  Apparently 
sales were slower than expected, at first, so a boost like this might have been 
possible....

hmmm....

    Wasn't an emergency restyle ordered on the Scorpio front end?
    
    Dan$remembering_rumours?

    Lets face it a large no. of Scorpios go to fleet buyers and hire
    fleets. Personal choice about the looks of the car are of relative
    unimportance. In one way I think its a shame as obviously Ford's
    designers were trying to be a bit radical but it appears to have back
    fired.                                          
    
    Royston

    I would think most Scorpios, and Granadas before them, are bought as
    executive company cars. So the car fleet purchasing wallah sends a mail
    to Ford "Send 6 executive saloons" and hey presto another 6 scorpios
    hit the streets.
    Choice doesn't enter in to many car schemes. Also if Ford give
    excellent trade ins against Scorpios they will sell. I remember an
    article in a paper where a Ford executive stated they were selling
    better than expected - he would say that. Volume depends on price.
    
    Andrew

    Woh! Notes clash or what :-)

    
    Re .53 (dealer stickers)
    
    most lease-mobiles don't have dealer stickers either - I think the
    dealers supplying Vauxhalls to Digital are told not to put them on.
    
    My Frontera doesn't have any, just a couple of Dead-head sticka's
    instead %^)
    
    I agree though, that a lot of them will be company cars, in many
    companies there is no choice of makes (sometimes no choice of models,
    either) so an employee of level 'n' will get a new Scorpio whether they
    want it or not.
    
    Graham

re leasing/no-sticker stuff

Yep, I thought that initially, but the majority of leasing comanies *do* 
identify themselves on the car (be it reg plate, sticker or front windscreen 
sticker).  I'd be amazed if more than a few tens (at the very most) of Scorpios 
have been sold to private buyers.

    Perhaps you guys could either confirm or disagree with my thoughts 
    on the new/current escort incarnation!!!
    
    The first time I saw one of these I thought 
    
    TROUT
    
    It looks like a trout from head on!!!!
    
    Then I see the advertising on SKY and whats jumping around in the
    ad????
    
    A TROUT
    
    Does anybody know/think Ford are deliberately using the fishyesque
    (What a great word!!!) for some sort of subliminal advertising method
    
    The worst one Ive ever seen was a plain silver escort van, now if you
    put a fin on the roof of that you have a perfect trout!!!!
    
    Is it just me!!!!
    
    Russ

    Never thought of it like that myself, but now you point it out, yes.
    Maybe... errm.
    
    Escort  = Trout
    Scorpio = ???
    Transit = Guppy
    
    ...anyone care to continue?!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

>    Scorpio = ???

I think this one's already been likened to a wide mouthed frog!

Chris.

    Scorpio is a nit catfish like from the front.
    
    Have you seen the Police Scorpio's !!!
    
    They look even more American if thats possible!!!!
    
    Russ

    
    Who was it in here that got the description completely accurate? 
    Someone mentioned that the Scorpio looked like it was driving along
    waiting to eat up Minis.
    
    Can't think of a more perfect description.
    
    Chris.

    >>I think this one's already been likened to a wide mouthed frog!
    
    You don't see many of those, do you?
    
    ;-)
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

Maybe it should be likened to a dodo...

The April '95 Top Gear has a review of the Scorpion, Nissan QX SEL and Vauxhall
Omega Elite.

The rear end of the Scorpio is definately US styling.  Maybe they'll put on a
spare tire bubble on the boot lid next year....

The back end of the Nissan reminds me of a GM standard car, while the Omega
looks quite boring.

While the front of the Scorpio is ugly, it reminds me of a car Zagato(?)
designed a fews ago.  I can't put a name to the car right now, but I think the
headlights are the part that look familiar.

Dave

ps - have you seen the new Ford Explorer (Jeep type vehicle) they have in the
US?  They redid the headlight treatment and put the parking lights on top of the
main lights.....

    Anybody else read CAR these days ?
    
    If you did, you'd know that Ford are planning to use the current Ford 
    Explorer platform for a Jaguar 4x4 (with a few altered panels here and 
    there).... Can hear some of the previous noters going
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH..... 
    
    The Ford Explorer is also due here in Blighty by the end of '96 or start of
    1997. 
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH
    
    Although I'm not a big fan of the Explorer, IMHO some of the most
    innovative car design is being accomplished in the US of A by Chrysler 
    right now.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen
             
    
                       

>>>>some of the most innovative car design is being accomplished in the US 

For "innovative", read "hideous".  Hence, this topic!

    
    Ive got to go for the Vauxhall Viva with the pointy bumper and the 
    bonnet of the Bat Mobile, and what about the speedo ....!!

    

The older mk1 Allegros had square steering wheels, too.  I remember driving my 
mate's M (I think) reg Allegro.  We'd painted it 9 or 10 shades of red (kept 
running out of spray), and I decided that I would risk driving it.  After 
precariously lunging the beast round the first few corners, struggling with the 
square wheel, a light started to flash on the dashboard.  It wouldn't stop, and 
we couldn't think what it was.  My mate gave it a slap, and the instrument 
binnacle fell off, bounced of the steering wheel, and fell at my feet.  This 
was my first experience of the beautiful Allegro.  Next, came the series 2, 
denoted by the big, blue number 2, on the rear, and the upward migration of the 
rear reg plate, ending up above the bumper.

This was indeed a classy animal, but squealed like a pig whenever you used the 
throttle.  Also, the 4 foot long gear stick (must've nicked this from the 
Marina's part bin) was a bitch to get into gear.

Why on earth they spawned the Maestro after this disaster, I'll never know.

    
>>>>   I hear that the steering wheel had a leather trim....
    
    not to mention, it was in fact TV screen shaped ie. a sort of rounded
    square shape. and that if you jacked one up with one or more doors
    open, the shell would distort when you lowered it back down again !
    
    G.

    I know a mate of mine who had a 1750 All-aggro and a large field. We
    used to razz it around the field until one day it had a rather nasty
    accident with a truck ramp concrete foundation - it hit the sump,
    cracked it, and bent the engine a fair few degree in the engine bay. He
    carried on driving it around anyway (field only, ofcourse) until one
    day the gearbox or engine had had enough of lacking in oil, and seized.
    He crushed it with a caterpillar.
    
    Good fun, tho'.
    
    It was replaced with a 1750 Ital - much more fun thanks to RWD!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    re .77
    
    I believe the actual name of that fabulous steering wheel was
    "Quartic".
    
    Interestingly enough, the good old maxi engine then made another
    appearance in the Maestro 1.6 (R Series?) before being turned around
    and mucked about with until it became the S Series which graced the
    Maestro, Montego and old-style Rover 216.
    
    Clive

    Aahhhh! Really? My mum had one of those 216SE thingies.... gutsy
    engine, although there's nothing at the top end and it's pretty
    raucous, it made for easy driving.
    
    You learn something every day!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

>>>> He crushed it with a caterpillar

hmmm....

    Errmm... I mean, err, like, one of those big yellow things with tracks
    and stuff?

    
    Wasn't the Egg Roll notorious for belly flopping when the front
    wheels decided to collapse out the way....?? 
    
    
    I remember seeing this happen to 2 Allegros
    
    
    

    I believe so, yes, some of them.... but not all.
    
    Was it Hydragas or Hydroelastic?
    
    Hmmm......
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    It was semi-functional hydragas. It took Rover Group until the New
    Metro to get Hydragas working properly.
    
    Clive
    
    PS  A friend fitted the 1.3 Turbo engine from a Metro into an Allegro.
        A pointless exercise you might think, but it made people do a
        double take.

    
    
    BL (or whoever it was then) also did a '1750HL' Aggro. Luvverly.
    
    Richard.
    

I don't know if its just me but I agree that the newer American cars seem to be
ugly - lacking in style. As mentioned before in this topic it appears that all
the companies are using the same CAD software and turning out very similar
looking cars.

There is one new fad that I've noticed with American auto makers....they have
stripped all of the emblems off of the new cars. In a lot of cases you cannot
tell what make it is unless you look at the front (there is usually still an
emblem on the grill or bonnet) and there is a good chance you will not be able
to tell what model it is from the outside.

I noticed in Britain that the oposite is true, every car has the make and model
clearly marked on the back. Seems to be true for the Japanese cars too.

nigel

    Saw a Toyota RAV4 jeep thingy on the M62 last night.
    Almost interesting from the side, the front is all wrong
    and the rear.... UGGGHHHHH
    
    Just goes to prove my point about Japanese design school..
    
    Design tech......	We've made all variations on the sleek theme
    			and the boxey theme, what can we do next to be
    			different?
    
    Design Boss......	Well there's always the "ugly" theme.....
    
    Matt.
                                 

    
    Shouldn't that be  : 
    
     Design tech......   Everyone else has made all variations on the sleek 
    			 theme and the boxey theme, what can we do next to
    			 be different?
    
    Japan has its share of attractive cars (errr....), but without doubt 
    the world's UGLIEST cars come from there too (immediate faves include
    the Datsun Cherry, original Micra, Toyota Crown, Tonka toy MR2
    (original one), old style NISSAN 300ZX. - A common theme is the fact
    that many ape poor American design... !^)
    
    Mark

>I don't know if its just me but I agree that the newer American cars seem to be
>ugly - lacking in style. As mentioned before in this topic it appears that all
>the companies are using the same CAD software and turning out very similar
>looking cars.
>
>There is one new fad that I've noticed with American auto makers....they have
>stripped all of the emblems off of the new cars. In a lot of cases you cannot
>tell what make it is unless you look at the front (there is usually still an
>emblem on the grill or bonnet) and there is a good chance you will not be able
>to tell what model it is from the outside.

I was going to say just replace 'American' with 'Japanese' and you could say the
same thing...

>I noticed in Britain that the oposite is true, every car has the make and model
>clearly marked on the back. Seems to be true for the Japanese cars too.

They must have different markings for different markets.  It seems all the cars
from Japan look the same and the small to medium ones from the US makers pretty
much follow the same styling (bland, rounded, bulbous) too.  Even Saab is making
their new car more mainstream, yeck! 

Dave

    
    My goodness.....
    This entry transformed to Japan bashing.....
    No defend from Japan?
    
    
         >>No No the japs started it.
                     ^^^^
    Shut up!
    
    
        >>P.S. Oh yes, the Nissan Bluebird.... *HYUUUUUKKKKKKK*
    
    Well, Nissan has design stadio somewhere in UK, Bluebird(Altima) may
    be designed there, I know new Pathfinder is.
    
    
        >>but without doubt the world's UGLIEST cars come from there too
    
    In your opinion. IMO,however the world's UGLIEST cars are MARCOS.
    Both the little one based on Mini and the big ugly one with V8 engine
    in it.  IMHO, they both are not only ugly but look very stupid.
    
    
        >>the Datsun Cherry, original Micra, Toyota Crown, Tonka toy MR2
        >>(original one), old style NISSAN 300ZX. - A common theme is the
        >>fact that many ape poor American design... !^)
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Really?
    
    I have to agree that they all listed above are not pretty but may I
    ask ape of which American cars?
    
    Lets talk about English cars.
    The latest TVR shows some similarity to Dodge Viper (aroud the door
    hinges and trunk rid cut).
    What do you think about the new Jaguar XJS's(prototype) head lights?
    Very original, doesn't at all look like the Porche Boxster's eh.
    What about under the skin? Jaguar nicked TOYOTA's quality controll
    and management style in the early '80s when it was still British not
    yet owned by Ford.
    
    Mitsuhiko Nakagawa, a Japanese living in Canada
                                             
    
    
    

    RE: .-1
    
    Marcos   " M A N T U L A "
    
    That's it,  the name I could not remember.
    This car is the U G L I E S T.
    
    Mitz
    
    
    

    
    Each to their own, Mitz. By definition, almost, notes are an expression
    of opinion.
         
    I think you PROBABLY mean the Mantara (the latest car) and I have to
    agree its not the prettiest Marcos ever produced and without doubt
    the Mini Marcos rates as one of the UGLIEST cars from anywhere.
    Perhaps you're interested to know, however, that the Mini's recent 
    revival is almost entirely due to demand from your homeland, so someone
    loves them :^)
    
    I _doubt_ the Bluebird was designed in the UK, as Nissan only started
    producing cars in the UK around that time (actually, IMO, the Bluebird 
    is no monster, just a bland saloon like many others). Cars, btw, may be
    sold with different names in Europe to Japan (the Bluebird, for
    instance is no longer made).
    
    However, are you really defending the likes of the early 80s Datsun
    Cherry and the Toyota Crown (from the 70s)? 
    
    If so, you certainly have a different idea of beauty to many Europeans.
    
    As you asked, the Toyota Crown aped those big, wood panelled Ford
    Estates, the 300ZX the likes of the Camaro, Firebird, etc. The others,
    I can't place, as I don't know a great deal about American cars.
    
    Perhaps that is the key. In the 70s/ early 80s Japanese companies were
    selling into the US, a market used to such designs and the sales of
    Japanese cars in the UK (70s anyway) was small. As the designs became 
    more European (early/mid 80s) the volume of sales increased. Perhaps
    what looked good to the American eye, just didn't suit the European (or
    at least British) eye? 
    
    I don't think anyone is saying (are they?) that there are no attractive
    Japanese cars (the current MR2 and the latest Nissan 300ZX, ironically,
    are two that spring to mind and Mazda are good at making bold cars
    which, generally, don't turn the stomach), but (especially in the
    70s/early 80s) there are some awful cars from there.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Since the 'latest' TVR (the Griffith or the Chimera?) are close in
    time to the Viper, its likely that both cars simply drew from similar
    styling ideas from earlier vehicles.
    
    PPS Does this mean you don't want to make me an offer for my Marcos
    then? :^)
                                

    
    RE: .-1
    
    could not agree more...uuuggglllyy
    
    I don't know if its just me, but I reckon that most of the kit cars I
    see (in kit car magazines) are just plain ugly.....some come close to
    looking ok and then spoil it with some part of the car being out of
    proportion to the rest of it!!!!
    
    Byron
    

    re.97
    
    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
    
    ;-]
    
    Dan

    re.99
    
    Hahahahahahaha!
    
    ;-)
    
    Nice one!
    
    Dan

    Re .94  "This entry transformed to Japan bashing....."
    
    Our friend in .94 has a point.
    
    When dicussing other countries please avoid comments that could be
    intepreted as being derogatory.
    
    Bear in mind this conference is read world wide.
    
    Royston (co-mod)

re .99

Good one....8-)


re .94

Not sure I agree with this business about TVRs "borrowing" styling from the
Dodge Viper....The Cerbera's roof may look a little similar, but this is 
hardly an uncommon thing.  THere are only a set number of ways a roof can be 
tacked on to a convertible....I'm sure if you saw the TVR Chimera or Griffith,
you'd see that both are far too subtle to come from America (8-, and lean more 
on British racing car heritage than brash American muscle cars.  JMO, of 
course.

re .103

What was that smiley!?!

(8-)

    
    Re .102
    
    Better delete this whole note then.
    
    Mark

    RE: .99/.100 Oh, you children!
    
    Lozzer.

    re: .96
    
    It occurs to me that both the Datsun 240/260/280 (now Nissan) and the 
    second(?) generation Corvette are both derived from the Jaguar E Type. 
    It seems to me that the E Type was that first car made in any amount of
    numbers that had the looooong hood (bonnet) and a smallish cockpit at
    the back.
    
    As far as ugly styling goes, I think all cars (except for Jags) are
    looking far too similar.  Most of the major car companies world wide
    have started or are continuing to use a few different shells and are
    slapping some slightly different body panels on them to make different
    models.  The most recent that comes to mind is the Infinity I30 that is
    a Nissan Maxima with a few bits added here and there to tart it up. 
    
    What it all gets down to is that efficiency is king these days and
    aerodynamics is one area that has been targetted for making efficiency
    gains.  This is particularly true in the States where companies are
    penalized for having an average gas milage over a governmant mandated
    point.  European and British companies are going to end up in the same
    situation......the catilytic (SP?) converters that are just now
    starting to appear is just the first step in government mandated car
    design............
    
    In the not-too-distant future, all cars are gonna look the same. 
    Models and manufacturers names aren't gonna be considerations anymore.
    
    IMHO, of course.
    
    Brian Pituley
    Calgary, Canada
    

    re .109
    
    It doesn't help when different manufacturers start sharing models eg
    
    Rover 200/Honda Concerto
    Rover 400/Honda Civic
    Rover 600/Honda Accord
    Rover 800/Honda Legend
    Ford Maverick/Nissan Terrano
    Vauxhall Fontera/Isuzu Trooper
    Daewoo Nexia/Vauxhall Astra MkII
    Daewoo Espero/Vauxhall Cavalier
    
    Clive

    Peugeot 806/Fiat Ulysse/Citroen Evasion/Lancia <mumble>
    Ford Galaxy/Volkswagen Sharan
    
    Expect that to get worse...

>>>Vauxhall Fontera/Isuzu Trooper

Surely you mean the Vauxhall Monterray (sp?)


>>>Rover 800/Honda Legend

Can't say I noticed this one.  Mind you, it's not often I see a Honda Legend 
around.  You sure about this one?

    re .112
    
    I'm sure the Frontera is based on an Isuzu vehicle as well. The
    original 800 series shared a vast amount with the Honda Legend.
    
    Clive

    re .96  >>notes are an expression of opinion.
    
    Of course! 
    
            >>Perhaps you're interested to know, however, that the Mini's
            >>recent revival is almost entirely due to demand from your
            >>homeland, so someone loves them :^)
    
    Of course I _DO_ know that Japan is importing Mini's for a long time
    and some people are still in love with Mini's.
    But I was talking about Mini "MARCOS" not Mini itself.
    BTW, Marcos cars are also still sold in Japan and may be one of few
    market exits outside UK.
    The 2CV is the another example that we could buy them _NEW_ for the
    longest time.
    The Caterham Super 7 is also very much loved by japanese people and
    probably Japan is the biggest market outside UK.
    
            >>However, are you really defending the likes of the early 80s
            >>Datsun Cherry and the Toyota Crown (from the 70s)?
    
    I said "I have to agree that they all listed above are not pretty",
    didn't I make myself clear enough?
    I just wanted to know which American cars you were refering to because
    I could not think of any especially for the Micra.
    
            >>If so, you certainly have a different idea of beauty to
            >>many Europeans.
    
    May be...
    
    IMO, Lotus Europe/Elite/Super7/23/, Jaguar C,D,E Types/XKE120,
    Aston Martin DB35/DB4GT Zagato, Renault Alpine A110..(could go
    longer).....are very nice but best looking car to me including
    racing cars is the Ferrari 330P4.
    Now you know my taste about cars, am I differnt form many Europeans?
    
            >>Since the 'latest' TVR (the Griffith or the Chimera?) are
            >>close in time to the Viper,.....
    
    I don't think so.  The Viper's debut was far a head of TVR Griffith.
    
            >>Does this mean you don't want to make me an offer for my
            >>Marcos then? :^)
    
    Ha ha......
    
    If I had a chance to drive around beautifull twisty English country
    roads, I would prefer a lightweight sports like Super 7.
    What is so special about this Rover V8 engine anyway?
    (Borrowed from Buick decades ago)
    This engine requires DOUBLE DECKER engine hood and making ugly car even
    uglier.
    
    Mitz
    
    

>    What is so special about this Rover V8 engine anyway?
>    (Borrowed from Buick decades ago)

I've often wondered why this rather ancient engine is still in use.  I
wonder if the much heralded K-series (or is it T- ?) V block will finally
replace it, or if the old Buick derivitive will be in use until the end
of time?!

Chris.

    
    >    What is so special about this Rover V8 engine anyway?
    >    (Borrowed from Buick decades ago)
    
    not a lot if you look at it as an ancient 60's V8. 
    But..rover updated and improved the original buick casting..so its not 
    exactly the same motor....
    
    Its relatively compact.
    
    Its available in quantity.
    
    You can get 3.5 to 5litres of capacity fairly easily
    
    There is a fair amount of aftermarket performance gear..not as much as
    ford/chev etc...but still enough...
    
    You can get a fair bit of grunt out of it...450hp out of 4.5Litres in
    the tvr tuscan race cars...
    
    Its light at 318Lb's....to put that in perspective
    
    BL "MGB" L4 OHV 	335lbs
    Ford Pinto 2L	418Lbs
    Triumph Stag V8	446Lbs
    Ford Kent 1600	350-400Lbs (not sure exactly)
    
    you can get ford/chev aluminuim blocks...but they are damn expensive
    and its probably easier (and in some cars) more original to use the
    venerable rover v8...
    
    to .114
    
    I dare say a rover v8 in a lightweight 7 would in a lot cases make it
    lighter than the 4cylinder that lives in a lot of 7's...
    
    The rover v8 is actually shorter (less tall 9-) ) than most 4 cylinders
    and any sort of normal induction system would probably mean its only as
    tall as an average 4 cylinder...I'n not sure why cars should need a
    "double decker" engine hood???. The one in my B fits in fine including 
    a plenum chamber atop a fuel injection manifold...no holes in my
    bonnet..
    
    As a production now days its a bit dated...pity rover never did the
    quad overhead cam setup they promised in late 1993...
    
    thats why its still used...I personally can't think of a reasonable 
    alternative...If wanted plenty of cheap grunt and a motor that was
    as light as a 4 cylinder...i'd rather use the rover than stretch a
    4cylinder to its limits...the rover could give the same power...heaps
    more torque and probably better driveability...
    
    Byron
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Byron Lister........Digital Equipment Corporation........tsg_bhl@enet.dec.com |
|      '64 5.0L V8 twin turbo MGB Roadster "BITEME"...100% Street Driven       |
|    Them:9 seconds thats a pretty slow 0-60   Me:No thats for the 1/4 mile    |
|		  When Too Much HorsePower Is Barely Enough                    |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Byron,
     
    Thanks for your information.
    I am glad that I asked. Now I've got better understanding about the
    Rover V8 engines.
    That's probably why the TVR and the Morgan are also using it.
    V8 that lighter than the KENT 1600 and even lower than most of IL4's
    gives me quite clear picture.
    How is your MG special?   I will read #2335 after this.
    
    I don't really know why Marcos needs double decker bonnet, err...
    "a small bubble on top of a large bubble" may explain the shape of
    the bonnet better, anyhow, the driver will sit very low or near to
    the ground in this car.  See the most heavy components in the car are
    the engine, the fuel tank(with fuel in it of course), then the driver 
    and passenger(if any). Marcos seems tried to keep gravity centre as low 
    as possible by forcing people to sit low, mounting the fuel tank and the
    engine low.  But I guess the Rover V8 is a little too tall for this car.
    I bet the original car had shorther engine (IL4 or IL6) and needed only 
    one bubble on the bonnet. 
    I never seen any photos with the Marcos and the MGB side by side so I
    can not be sure but I guess Marcos's engine bay is thinner than the
    MGB's.
    
    Mitz
    

>>
>>            >>Since the 'latest' TVR (the Griffith or the Chimera?) are
>>            >>close in time to the Viper,.....
>>
>>    I don't think so.  The Viper's debut was far a head of TVR Griffith.
         
I don't want to get into an argument here, because I'm not sure of the exact 
dates involved (I've forgotten), but the Griffith was basically derived from 
the Tuscan wasn't it?  Anyway, the Viper isn't exactly original...it's a 90s 
version of the Cobra (only not as pretty).

    
    Nakagawa San.
    
    If you agree that people are entitled to their own opinion
    I would suggest that "Shut Up" is a little out of place?
    
    I accept that I may be wrong, but I still think that either
    the Japanese started it, or they copied the American design
    only made it worse...
    
    I have great admiration for the way Japanese Industry has overtaken
    most other countries in most consumables, partly through copying 
    something and making it more efficiently ( and sometimes better)
    and partly through the relationship with the government allowing
    stability for long term plans. But I find it curious that a country
    who believe that inanimate objects have "soul" have managed to flood
    the world with souless objects (IMHO) I once drove a Mazda pickup
    for work, and it had rounded black, hard plastic shiny control stalks
    and a tacky plastic imitation wood dash. You can still find these
    things in current cars! Even a good looking car like the Celica has
    the same stalks...
    
    Just my point of view you understand.
    
    Matt.

    .-1
    
    Yes I do think that people are entitled to their own opinion but I
    don't think that people can use such a word you wrote in your reply.
    Like or not DEC is an international company, it's hard to believe that 
    people who (might) have atleast primary school education use such a word 
    in the international public place. Needless to say but this is only in 
    my opinion.  
    I meant SHUT UP to that word you used and I UNDER LINED it in my
    reply. If you used same word again, I will say  S H U T  U P  again.
    It got nothing to do with your opinion, but the word I under lined.
    
    Mitz
       

    You tell `im Mitz. S H U T  U P  Martin. Oh, and he had a really good
    education, his school was approved by the government.
    
    
    ( :-) Don't need one of these this side of the Atlantic do I DK?)
    
    Phil Gill.

    Hmmmm
    I missed the point of your underline Mitz.
    No offence intended.
    Call me an ignorant Brit if you  like, but I don't understand how
    a shortening of a word can offend so easily?
    In fact you can call me an Anglo, a Pommie, a Gringo, a Limey
    or just a Brit, and at most I'll smile, I certainly wouldn't take
    any serious offence.
    
    Matt.

    I'd be interested in why Mitz is so upset with the term used as it
    is (as for as I know) simply an abreviation. 
    
    Royston

    >>I'd be interested in why Mitz is so upset with the term used as it
    >>is (as for as I know) simply an abreviation. 
    
    So is Paki, Royston, but I don't know of any Pakistanis that approve of 
    the term. I know a few that don't.
    
    Phil Gill. (an abbreviation)

    Perhaps the best thing to do is avoid national abbreviations. As a mod
    I just don't want anyone to get upset with any perceived racist
    references. It's just sad that Mitz took offence where there was none
    intended.
    
    Royston

    Whichever Mod deleted .124 , I hope it wasn't on my account?
    Gilly can (and will) say anything he likes and I don't believe I 
    could ever be offended.
    
    Rathole closed
    Matt.

    >> So, come on board, Mitz....
    
    Thanks Mark,
    
    But I should of read #480 first, right?
    Well, now I have a few questions about the Marcos but I will do my
    homework first, it would be discussed already there.
    If I still had questions, I will ask them in #480.
    43" (Only 3" taller than GT40 with FR configuration) means something
    to me.
    
    Mitz
    
    

Not guilty either

Richard

    Mods, I haven't had any Notes deleted, I don't know what he's talking
    about. Martin: S H U T  U P.
    
    Phil Gill.

    So it isn't... I've not been well....
    
    Matt

    RE: MARCOS (.130)
    
    I've done my homework, no further questions on Marcos cars.
    
    Thank you
    Mitz
    
    PS..Mark,
    	In mid(or early) '80s, a company called ARGYLL TURBOcars in UK
    	introduced their new car, check the taillight clusters, you will
    	see they are from one of the car you listed in .92!!
     	

    
    Argyll's...wow, there's a name I'd totally forgotten about!
    
    Mark
    
    PS Mitz, which car was it?

    re .last
    
    Hi Mark THE expert enthusiast (The MARCOS cars are for experts that
    what my Japanese mag say).
    
    It was Datsun Cherry's.
    
    Mitz
    

    
    Mitz,
    
    I don't know about EXPERT, but you need to be an enthusiast! :^)
    
    Mark

    	Surely, one of the ugliest volume production cars, after the new
    Scorpio of course, must have been the Allegro VDP.  Allegro's were
    mentioned earlier, but not the Van Den Plas version.
    
    				Malcolm.

    20. Austin Gypsy
    
    	These had a slightly less than sucessful RR engine.  Didn't the
    British Army give these to the Units with the highest accident rates?
    
    Standard Vanguard:  These basically failed in America due to the name
    "Standard" and the conotations that carried.  I remember back in 19 and
    Mumble Mumble, I was travelling along that long straight road back to
    RAF Lindholme at about 85MPH overtaking a lorry, when the Vanguard Van
    suddenly flipped around with the result that I reversed exceedingly
    rapidly into the ditch - which was about 10 feet wide and deep.  I got
    14 days Jankers for that!  The Jankers covered my now wife's 21st and
    she wrote to my CO and I got off the last 5 or 6 days!!
    
    	Ah memories, memories!
    
    				Malcolm.

    >I got
    >14 days Jankers for that!  The Jankers covered my now wife's 21st and
    >she wrote to my CO and I got off the last 5 or 6 days!!

COuld you translate this into 'merican English please??

Thanks
Dave

    	Basically, Jankers is multiple daily reporting to the Guardhouse
    outside working hours, being given all the dirty jobs or scrubbing the
    Parade Ground with a toothbrush - making sure that you don't have time
    to do anything you might want to do and make life unpleasant in general
    for the period specified.
      				Malcolm.

Thanks for the explanation.

Dave

    Re: .140 & .141 Austin Gypsy
    
    I have fond memories of driving one of these back in the early 80's
    when I helped run a summer school for American students up on Colonsay
    in the Inner Hebrides.  Great for off-road work - i.e. up & down sand
    dunes, 1:3 inclines along tractor tracks, etc.  One thing I do remember
    is that there wasn't a spot of rust on the rear door - something to do
    with it being made of wood - guess the original just faded away.
    
    Good fun
    Sue

    If this is the Quattroporte I think it ... then it's only another
    version of the Biturbo, with 4 doors.
    
    Given the cash situation at Maserati, I don't expect them to invest
    much in new design ...