Conference terri::cars_uk

I came across to the UK on "Le shuttle" last Saturday night. I arrived
at Calais at 9:00 p.m., and was looking for a quick crossing.

The crossing was fast - the train travels at 130 km/h, and takes 35 minutes.
This is a real bonus when you've got a long way to travel (though I
believe the Seacat takes a similar length of time). 

Stacking cars into the train was quick - 15 minutes to load 100 cars
(50 down below, 50 up top).

You have to bring your own chair - everyone stays in 
their own car. (though you can walk around and admire the featureless
interior of the train, or use the toilet).

I got talking to one of the crew who patrol the train. I said that a
weakness of the system was that you roll in on the first carriage,
and roll off  12 carriages further along. There are between 4 and 5 carss per 
carrriage, so if one of the 50+ cars breaks down in front of you, then you 
are in trouble. I asked the guy if this had been a problem to date.
He said yes - primarily with Jaguars breaking down. He reckoned that 4
had broken down since the service began.


Well, we got to Folkestone, and the overhead panels told us to start our engines.
Then we waited, and waited, and.....

30 minutes later the same guy came past. I asked what was wrong. He
said that a Jaguar  automatic's immobilizer had packed in, and there was
no way to move the thing! This was the third car from the front...
Eventually an RAC breakdown truck managed to manoeuvre up the ramps and
lift the Jag's front wheel off the ground. They then gingerly towed it down
the ramp and out of the side door - a pretty hairy operation.

In summary:

	- The tunnel is quick
	- It is vulnerable to cars breakdowns
	- Jaguar's are lower on my priority list than before (not that
	  they were particularly well placed before)

-Steve

    I'd still much rather have a walk round and something to eat on the
    ferry...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    Not to mention a quick beer, eh Laurie...?!
    
    Chris.

    My wife and I travelled First Class on the Eurostar Waterloo to Paris
    Gard du Nord last Friday. The train ran perfectly to time and spent
    20mins in the Tunnel. I would agree that they haven't yet really got
    their act together. For example at breakfast the waiters completely
    forgot to serve marmalade with the rolls and croisant, I had to ask.
    I am surprised that they do not have a dedicated truck to extract
    broken down cars. It's not rocket science.
    I remain convinced that if one lives in the SE it is very attractive.
    
    Andrew

    Speaking as one who very regularly crosses the channel, I'd say that
    for one or two people travelling say Brussels-London-Brussels or
    London-Brussels-London and who have no need of a car in
    London/Brussels, then the train through the tunnel is a brilliant
    scheme. However, I travel en famille, and with a car, and I can't see
    myself ever using the tunnel under those circumstances. As I said
    earlier, I'd far rather have a walk round, something to eat (and a
    beer!).
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

er...I hesitate to say this, but I agree with Laurie.  Boat trips give you more 
options while travelling.  If you're in a rush, or are travelling without a 
car, I'm sure the Eurotunnel would be lovely.  However, I like the way that the 
Ferry can be made to be part of the travelling/holiday/whatever experience.

p.s. I remain unconvinced as to the safety of the tunnels should a fire break 
out in a car, for example.  What happens to people who are imobile/disabled?  
Also, the cross-over tunnels are too far apart to accomodate the capacity of 
people involved, IMO.

    At its conception, there was always the worry about an IRA bomb, too.
    While this worry may not still hold as much weight, there's still the
    possibility of a bomb or explosion in a tunnel - chances of a rupture?
    
    Still, I guess if there was a fire, they wouldn't be short of water to
    put it out.

    Not so sure that a bomb or explosion would rupture the 'tubes'. Weren't
    they made of NATO grade concrete? Designed to withstand the might of
    the red army.

    
    Why is a bomb more likely in the Chunnel than on a ferry? Levels of
    security seem similar.
    
    A major blast in a confined space would cause a few problems to the
    people in the tunnel.
    
    Andrew

    >>Why is a bomb more likely in the Chunnel than on a ferry? Levels of
    >>security seem similar.
    
    Good question, I don't know, but I just get the feeling that it is. I
    dunno, maybe more potential damage? A bomb on a ferry, you can get
    people off. A bomb in a tunnel - well, it's a little harder, isn't it?
    I dunno.... it just seemed a 'ripe' target, to me.
    
    Dan$scaremonger

A bomb on a ferry only stops the one ferry.

A bomb in the tunnel stops the tunnel

    Plus I imagine it's a lot easier to fix (if it's still afloat) a ferry
    than it is to fix a flooded tunnel.
    
    Let's say the tunnel flooded due to a rupture. How on earth do you go
    about fixing it?
    
    Dan$potential_rathole_but_it's_a_goodun'

    Whilst we're dealing with tunnel safety, as opposed to the quality of
    the burgers at Calais, check out the earthquake potential of where it's
    built.
    
    I saw a figure of one quake at 5.2 on the Richter scale every 150
    years.
    
    OK, so 5.2 is 100 times less than the quake at Kobe, but it'd still
    do lots more than just rattle your teeth.
    
    As for the fire extinguishers, there's a halon flood system.  Halon
    isn't poisonous, but you do tend to asphyxiate, which, I understand,
    has almost the same effect as a poison gas. 

    Fire chief's definition of the chunnel
    
    
    A thirty mile long skyscraper with two means of exit at either end.

Wouldn't worry too much about a bomb - if you're a shareholder.
The tunnel is 40m underneath the start of the rock layer. So, if there's
an explosion, then the tunnel shouldn't be out of commission for too long.

-Steve

    Anyone fancy working out exactly how much explosive it would take to
    fracture 40m of rock layer? Not that I want to do it, you understand,
    I'm just interested.
    
    Oh cripes, this *is* the CARS_UK conference, isn't it?!

    I was told today that if you travel on the train as a passenger
    (ie not with a car) that you are only allowed one piece of hand
    luggage/small bag, there's no room to store suitcases etc.
    Can anyone confirm this?
    
    Jane.

    On the Eurostar from Waterloo there was as much baggage space as on
    Intercity 125/225 trains. I have no idea if one joined Le Shuttle at
    Ashford as a foot passenger. Is this a supported option?
    
    Putting the tunnel out of commission with a bomb is a problem for those
    in it at the time and for shareholders. Whether it floods or is
    reinstated doesn't affect the overall safety.
    
    Andrew

It is not recommended that you stay in a computer room when the 
HALON system is dumping. this is because the gas pipes and nozzles
usually run under the floor, and is discharged at such force you 
could get knocked out by a flying floor tile!

That said, once dumped, it is safe to walk into a computer room
with dishcharged HALON. Just don't confuse it with the old 
CO2 systems.

Huw.

    
    We used the tunnel on our way back from our Christmas hols. I am a
    great fan of the ferries because you can get out & stretch your legs,
    have a meal, get some duty frees etc. This is esspecially important
    after the 7.5 hour dash up the motorway from Bern to Calais - I need a
    break before the 4 hour slog M23/M25/M4 to Cardiff.
    	However, on the trip back, we need to cross a quickly as possible
    to compensate for loosing an hour. We have tried the hovercraft &
    seacat but usually end up taking the ferry. This year, on the spur of
    the moment as we approached Folkstone, we decided to try the tunnel. We
    arrived at the ticket booth at 12:45pm, we're informed that there was
    room on the 1:09pm and before 2:45pm CET we were motoring down the
    French motorway to Reims. I was very impressed with the service. Clean,
    efficient, friendly & very convienient (eg. customs at departure point
    cf ferries where you endup queueing for 30 minutes on arrival in
    Dover).
    	We will definitely use the tunnel on our next trip back from the UK
    to the continent.
    
    	We were told we didn't have time to visit the Duty Free etc at
    Folkstone (we would have had 20 minutes so I was a bit miffed at
    missing the chance to restock my Whiskey cabinet) so I can't comment on
    the facilities their. We did have a problem with our carphone ariel which
    didn't foul the height check barrier but did catch on the carraige roof
    - my daughter had to reach out of the sunroof & hold it down (we have a
    Shogun which measures 2.08 metres with the arial - the limit must be
    around 2.05 metres I reckon.
    
    	Anyway, I think its a great service - I just hope it doesn't put
    all the ferries out of business, although the days must be numbered for
    the hovercraft.
    
    JBG

    To add to the user experience - we've done two return trips on Le
    Shuttle.  No incidents on either occasion, timekeeping at least as good
    as the ferry average.
    
    Agreed lack of cafe/bar might bother some travellers, but there is
    enough time for a reasonable picnic if you are organised.  My main
    complaint was the lack of litter bins - there's nowhere to dump empty
    cans, cartons etc., but I suppose they are a hazard.
    
    If you do travel on Le Shuttle, observe the extensive safety
    precautions and consider whether the ferries are worth the risk - this
    certainly is not a level playing field, the ferries are getting away
    with mu...r - minimal fire precautions, no watertight divisions on the
    car decks, limited safety interlocks on ramps etc...but then their
    priorities are running cafes and duty free shops.
    
    Remember, at the moment it is still (in theory, at least) a book ahead
    service.  The turn-up and go service is still delayed due to the poor
    delivery of rolling stock from the continental manufacturers.

    Does the Shuttle get to Lyon or Cannes or Nice yet?
    
    Stu

    The Shuttle shuttles between a big marshalling yard outside Ashford and
    a big marshalling yard outside Calais.
    
    At present Eurostar trains travel between London-Paris(Gard du Nord)
    and London-Brussels.
    Other plans are dependant upon delivery of more trains. In the UK it is
    planned to extend up the East Coast to Edinburgh. Maybe West coast too.
    I am not sure what other European destinations are planned. Sleeper
    services are also planned, I would expect that they would go deeper
    into Europe. Only certain trains are allowed through the tunnels.
    
    Andrew

    There was a newspaper headline yesterday about a proposed rail link
    from Reading to Paris (Some Reading local paper). Did anyone see
    anymore about it ? What route would it take ? Is it likely to happen ?
    
    Andrew

    Hi,
    
    It was reported in yesterdays Basingstoke Gazette that the new link
    (opening next year) will run from the West Country and will include
    stops at Swindon, Reading and Basingstoke. Price TBA.
    
    \Graham

    >>stops at Swindon, Reading and Basingstoke.
    
    what a wiggly route!  At least the French bit will be direct!
    
    Jc
    

...Must be because one of the Inter City commuter lines (Swansea - Paddington) 
passes through Cardiff, Bristol, Swindon and Reading, and normally heads off 
towards Paddington (obviously).  However, if it switches line at Reading, it 
heads off towards Waterloo (via Basingstoke), where the chunnel connection is. 

...well, it made sense to me when I wrote it!

    There are already some IC125s running in to Waterloo to provide links
    with Eurostar trains. This must just be another one. It will not be
    direct as there is no electrification along those outer routes.
    
    Andrew

    Is this going to be a through service ? They would have to switch
    engines somewhere (Waterloo ?). Why go via Basingstoke, when it could
    go over the electrified lines from Reading to Waterloo ? (Or would it
    give an express connection from Reading to Waterloo without being held
    up by stopping trains).
    
    Andrew

What's the difference between Eurostar and Le Shuttle?  I assume that Eurostar 
is the foot-passenger service, and Le Shuttle (yeuch!) is the car transporter 
thingy...no?

    The Shuttle just runs between the terminals at either end of the
    tunnel. Eurostar runs over much more of the railway network. (E.g.
    London to Paris). I dont think you can take cars on Eurostar, though in
    principle you could. A through Motorail service from Manchester or
    Glasgow to the south of France or elsewhere in Europe ought to be
    possible, but it would probably cost more than driving the same
    distance and there would not be sufficient demand to make it
    worthwhile.
    
    Andrew

    re .38
    
    I didn't mean to suggest that people from outside London dont travel,
    or that such a service was not a 'good thing'. Just that the actual
    number of people using the service would not be sufficient to justify
    running the trains. Motorail trains take some time to load, so it would
    not be attractive to run a service that stopped in several places. Also
    some people would want to go to Paris, some to Marseille or Frankfurt,
    Vienna, Geneva Barcelona etc. You either have to have lots of services
    (with less traffic on each) or people have to change trains. The net
    effect is probably that you have a number of services running from
    various parts of Britain to Calais, where everyone gets off and joins a
    European service. In this case you find that many people would find
    that the UK part of the journey was not worth doing by train. If the
    European services all came through the tunnel and terminated in Dover
    then you would probably find there were very few people who preferred
    to take the train to Dover - nearly all users would find it better to
    drive direct to Dover.
    
    Also, currently train prices are such that it is cheaper for a family
    to drive than to take the train. Once you add additional charges for
    carrying the car, and add a requirement to book in advance, you would
    find that few people would use the service.
    
    I'm not against trains. If there was a train service that could get me
    where I wanted to go, at the time I wanted to go, taking no longer than
    by car (including rest stops), and at a price of no more than 30p a
    mile (for a family of 5 and the car) then I would use it.
    
    Andrew

agreed.  When I last travelled back to Swansea, I wanted to take the train.  
The distance is only about 160 miles each way, but the ticket would've cost 71 
pounds.  Even if my car's doing particularly poor consumption, and the bridge 
is taken into account, the cost only comes to something like 30 pounds max.

Trains are too pricey at the moment, so long live the car - until it's 
priced/taxed out of existence.

    
    Ratholing a bit, but the argument that 'not enough people use them' was
    used back in the sixties, so now we don't have railway lines or
    stations in my part of the world. Instead, we get criticised for
    travelling one-to-a-car everywhwere....
    
    G

    On a slightly different tack, but more related to cars than that hole
    in the ground...
    
    Any ideas why in LeShuttle ads, the Espace (featured so prominently) is 
    the old style Espace? I've heard Renault are comoing out with a new
    Espace,  shortly, does this indicate they are returning to the old
    style body or just that the ad was made so long ago?
    
    
    Angus

    re .40
    
    Sorry Andrew, had a bad day yesterday, feeling, sniff, sensitive!
    
    Cheers,
    Stuart ;*)

    Near-riots this weekend requiring police to be called to the UK end of
    the Tunnel, when loads of cars who'd turned up for the "turn up and go"
    shuttle service turned up and were told to turn back 'cos there was no
    room.
    
    The power of advertising, eh ?

    Let's face it. The tunnel is only starting. Eurotunnel and the
    dual-country safety commission are very careful not to ramp up
    traffic too fast. Every month they add another daily Eurostar, or
    another hourly freight train or shuttle, etc ...
    
    It will take a while before they get to full speed. Also I expect big
    social problems when the companies operating the ferries will start
    shutting jobs down. It's about to happen.
    
    In the meantime Eurotunnel certainly want to operate fully loaded
    trains. I can understand that. Shareholders are waiting for some
    results.

    
    Re .45
    
>>    ..............................................Remember that these
>>    things can carry full size trucks, busses or 2 layers of automobiles.
    
    Patrick,
    
    	I'm not sure that the commercial service is running yet. There's
    definitely no way you could get busses / lorrys on the car transporters
    - or caravans. In fact a Range Rover with roof rack wouldn't get on.
    I heard / read somewhere that larger trains will be available around
    easter to carry the larger vehicules.
    
    JBG

    
    
    The commercial service is already running. They use trains that are
    about the same size as the car train. The carriages have a metal 
    skeleton making a carriage shape, but they are not enclosed.
    
    For anyone interested, car trains seem to be running at about 10 mins past
    the hour, UK -> FR and about 20 mins to the hour, FR -> UK.
    
    Richard.
    

    Thanks for the prompt responses.
    
    Yes, the commercial truck/lorry/coach service was the 1st to use the
    chunnel. The various operators are very cautious. They open services
    one by one and only when they think they are satisfied with months of
    testing beforehand.
    
    The tunnel is currently running at low capacity. In the future we shall
    see 'Le Shuttle' trains for cars and for lorries/coaches leave every 20
    minutes, hourly Eurostars in both directions and ... freight trains.
    
    Freight trains are waiting for the proper locomotives (the Class 82) in
    order to reach full capacity. For the moment they use modified SNCF
    locomotives. 
    
    That's why I think the Ferries/Tunnel war is helpless. When the tunnel
    captures more than 50% of the market I wonder if the Ferries will still
    be operating. As an employee of the Ferries I would be looking for a
    job at this point. My personal view.
                                        

    Patrick, I believe there are many like me who like the ferries because
    of the break in the journey. This is especially true for those with
    children. Sealink, IMO will disappear, but P&O will survive.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Chaps,
    
    There are also many like me who will look at the prices and decide that
    the best way to travel is the cheapest way.
    
    Now that's what I call a self-depressing statement
    
    Peter.

    I'm sure I read somewhere a couple of years back that some big freight
    terminus was to be built at Doncaster. The idea being that road haulage
    traffic from the north of Britain (as opposed to just 'the north')
    would drive on board a chunnel bound train at Doncaster. (Thereby relieving
    some road congestion further south into the bargain.)
    
    This in itself would directly effect the choice of ferry or train for
    freight traffic at least.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen 

    Chaps,
    
    It looks like they've sorted the left/right hand drive changeover
    problem.
    
    If you look at the current tv ad for Le Shuttle in the UK it has a
    right hand drive Espace entering the train at Folkestone. If you look
    at the French ad it has the same Espace (including same family using
    it) in Left Hand Drive form entering the train in Calais.
    
    It even has the same animated creatures and everything else.
    
    Peter