Conference terri::cars_uk

I saw a picture of a 3 wheeler solar car (taken in Germany) in the minicar 
and Microcar club newsletter.  There wasn't really any info about the car, 
mainly a picture.  It had a single front wheel and might have been a 2 
seater, but I'm not sure.  It was fairly angular in shape.

Dave

		my milky has been happy enough with his for years.

		Heather

    Very good start indeed. We've already heard about 
    
    - solar EV
    - battery powered EV's
    
    How about discussing
    
    - new battery technologies (besides lead and NiCd that is)
    - hybrid vehicles (electric and conventional)
    - forthcoming regulations (California, USA, EU, ...)
    - pilots (I know the French ones)
    
    Others ?  
                                     

    
    Has anyone heard the latest on the GM "Impact" EV?  Last I heard it was
    on hold.
    
    Brian Pituley
    
    

From what I remember about Californias regulations is that they will be 
requiring a certain percentage of cars in the future to emit no pollution. 
 This percentage increases as the years go on.  I can't remember any 
details.

The other argument is that electric cars simply transfer the pollution from 
the tail pipe of the car back to the smokestack of the generating station. 
 I know that France has a lot of nuclear stations and I don't want to touch 
on that issue, but the power for the electricity has to come from somewhere 
and that generates waste no matter how it is produced.  Now, solar, hydro 
or wind power plants would be different, but we don't have too many of 
those around.

I think a key is for the term 'car' to be redefined when talking about 
electrics.  Don't expect a 4 passenger auto with all the creature comforts 
you have today and the ability to cruise at 80mph all day long.  Look at a 
small commuting car, 1 or 2 passenger, fairly compact and light.  Limited 
top speed and cruising range.  Gee, sounds like an Isetta doesn't it?  But 
think about it.  It can do 50mph, carry two people, weighs 700lbs and only 
requires 13.5 hp to propel it.  It's design and technology is also 40 years 
old so with some new lightweight material it would be lighter and safer and 
more efficient.  Now big is a 13.5 hp electric motor (I don't know), but it 
can't weigh that much.

Trying to get the public to swallow an electric Cadillac or Senator sized 
car won't work.  It'll have to be a small commuter car for it to work.

Dave 

Looking at the traffic on the roads at rush-hour I've often thought that the
way to make a killing in the motor industry would be to come up with a practical
commuter vehicle.

For the most part it would only carry one person, but would need to occasionally
carry two.

It would need to give either very high mpg, or be powered by a very cheap
alternative.

For the most part it would only need to do a 50 mile round-trip BUT would need to
be able to do long trips occasionally. I would estimate that the average speed 
for a commute is around 50mph, so give it a top speed of 60, but with the
acceleration to match the performance of current 'family' cars (10 sec 0-60).

It would need to be cheap enough to own to be a supplimentary vehicle for a
family.

Now the thing that fills those criteria is a motor-bike, so this 'commute-icle' 
would need to be safer (for the driver, not other road-users), and provide the
creature comforts that car drivers want. Give it the same controls and driving
style as a car. Make it fun to drive.

If someone came up with this I'd buy one. As it is I've got a 2CV for schelpping
to-and-fro (cheap, but no fun !) and a Pug 205 for motoring. So where's the
replacement for the tin-snail ?


TKS.

>Now the thing that fills those criteria is a motor-bike, so this 'commute-icle'
>would need to be safer (for the driver, not other road-users), 

  Sorry to rat-hole this topic but I'd like to point out that the majority
of motor-bike accidents are caused by other road-users.  Bikes themselves
aren't inherently dangerous.

    Whatever happened to Sinclair's post C5 prototypes?
    
    Tim

    I would think that in a few years time there should be scope for a
    transport system based on a variant of the channel tunnel. When asked
    why they drive for commuting many people answer that they would rather
    sit in a car in a traffic jam listening to music/radio, on the phone
    etc than in a carriage with 200 other wheezing coughing... commuters.
    It seems logical therefore to propose a system wher one drives the
    first part of a journey on norma roads then joins a mass transit
    system, in the same vehicle. Wheteher this is guided vehicle, or piggy
    back doesn't matter.
    I don't suggest this is a new idea, but I don't know anywhere that uses
    it.
    
    Andrew

    
    
    ...this sounds familiar, perhaps they could run on rails with
    electricity supplied from overhead cables, then the beginning/end of
    the journey could be made on foot thereby keeping the population fit
    and healthy as well.....
    
    G

>would need to be safer (for the driver, not other road-users)

>>...........I'd like to point out that the majority of motor-bike accidents
>> are caused by other road-users.  Bikes themselves aren't inherently dangerous.

Sorry, thats exactly what I was trying to get across - If other road users didn't
keep wacking bikers around the roads and junctions then bikes would be considered
a lot safer and more people would use them (me included).
Therefore the alternative has to have all the advantages of the bike (cost,
economy, less space on the road) but none of the disadvantages (visibility,
vulnerability in collisions, cold & wet).

T.


(sits back and waits for 'road-user' to rat-hole "...other road users didn't keep
wacking bikers.." wouldn't happen if bikers didn't wear black leathers, weave in
and out of traffic...etc, etc)

    S'Obvious, if everybody rode (sorry, drove) this new commuter vehicle,
    then there wouldn't be any other dangerous road users.
    
    As for fuel consumption/mileage, the "Feet Forward" totally enclosed
    design for bikes has been around for years, and it is perfectly
    feasible to build a vehicle which would provide transport for two
    people that is capable of 100mph cruising and returning 100mpg. After
    all, by totally enclosing the vehicle to protect the occupants from the
    elements/other road users, and reducing the frontal area by sitting the
    occupants in rather than on the vehicle, you are doing an awful lot to
    improve wind resistance, which is the prime cause of high fuel
    consumption for modern bikes.
    
    Unfortunately, as all of the pioneers in the last half century have
    found, people don't want to buy such a vehicle.
    
    R

>    Unfortunately, as all of the pioneers in the last half century have
>    found, people don't want to buy such a vehicle.
    
Except in a crisis, like Europe right after WWII.  So, until the fuel 
situation becomes a *real* crisis, it will be very difficult to get people to 
switch to a small commuter vehicle.  Then again, government mandates, like 
those in California might be the other way to get them on the market.

Dave

    
    I dunno 'bout that......If there was a small, *cheap* electric available
    that wouldn't do too much damage to my electrical bill I would buy one. 
    I went out and bought a second gas-powered vehicle to commute in
    because a Jag V12 sedan just ain't practical as a "daily driver".  An
    electric might be just the thing..
    
    Brian
    

I thought the Californian regs related to reducing the percentage of 
fossil fuelled (= non-renewable energy source) cars rather than electric 
cars per se.  Electric cars could actually be environmentally *more* 
damaging than petrol ones; it depends how the electricity is generated.  
The _entire_ energy cycle must always be taken into account.

I also believe there is a lot of interest in alcohol-fuelled cars in the 
context of the Californian legislation.  The idea is to get the alcohol 
(e.g. Ethanol, Methanol) from a renewable (agricultural) source.  The 
resulting exhaust fumes are cleaner than either petrol or diesel exhausts 
and the CO2 emissions are a non-issue because it only replaces the CO2 
absorbed from the atmosphere in the first place.  Well, that's the 
theory.

Regarding the 'cars vs bikes' safety rathole (sorry), since safety is 
very closely linked to likelyhood of injury, bikes must be less safe than 
cars as they afford very little protection in the event of an accident.  
Motor accidents are an unfortunate fact of life and, in this context, the 
causes are irrelevant.  Certainly, when I had a bike it didn't comfort me 
to think that most accidents are not the fault of the biker!

Mike

10kw - what does that relate too?  How big would the motor be and how many 
natteries would it take?

CA regs - Yes, I do believe the California regs don't specifically say they 
have to be electric, but just non polluting or something.  Maybe a hybrid 
electric/solar/propane car would be good (add wings and you've got a good 
car for the LA rush hour! :-))

Maybe I'll take one of our engineless Isettas and see what we can do with 
it!

Dave

RE .16
Auto express had an article last week on the French experiment. They're Pug 205's and 
Citroen AX's fitted with an electric system. They've got the economy and comfort, the 
range is the only real problem still.

Richard

    Richard,
    
    These 2 cars are a bad example. In the various pilot experiments around
    here PSA has tried to stuff their 106-AX things with some mixed success
    (people have gladly accepted them as presents but noone would pay for).
    
    In most experiments, the real succesful EVs are the specially designed
    ones ie cars made with the battery weight in mind and with the usage
    profile well understood. The most succesful EV's (Ligier, Erad, Vesta)
    are all basically 2 seaters + some payload, all built out of
    lightweight components, etc ... The PSA cars have no future (except
    perhaps the AX which is a lightweight).

    re .19
    
    10kW is a fair sized motor. I think it would be bigger than an
    equivalent petrol engine, though not greatly so. A starter motor is
    probably about 1kW, though it isn't designed for continuous use or long
    life.
    
    A motor that size would be too big to mount in the wheels. I suspect
    you couldn't even put a 2.5kW motor in each wheel without radical
    rethought of the way a cars suspension system works. It may be too
    heavy (too much unsprung weight) to do that as well. (I dont know if
    you could do something like the Reliant Robin with an electric motor).
    
    A 10kW motor would drain a typical car battery in a couple of minutes,
    so you would need a lot of batteries. But then there are battery
    technologies which provide much greater power/weight than conventional
    car battery, particularly in larger sizes.
    
    Most electric cars are based on the chassis/transmission/suspension of
    existing cars. That is probably not the best way to do it.
    
    Andrew

    The 10KW equates to the 13.5HP IC engine. However you would not run the 
    engine at full power all the time, (though some people try to). Once
    upto the speed required the only power needed is to overcome friction, wind 
    resistance, and any forces as a result of road slope, (though the up loss 
    should balance the down gain on average in a regenerative system). 
    So the view of a 10KW motor running flat out all the time is incorrect.
     

Thanks for the info on the motor size.  I definately agree that simply 
taking a current small 4 seater and replacing the IC engine with an 
electric motor and a pile of batteries is not the way to go.

Make the car for commuting only and they have a chance.

Dave

>>...........I'd like to point out that the majority of motor-bike accidents
>> are caused by other road-users.  Bikes themselves aren't inherently dangerous.

	Don't be rediculous, of course they are more inherently dangerous.

	They are less stable, therefore less likeley to stay upright when hit,
	or when encountering dodgey road surfaces (eg oil spill) when
	cornering.

	Heather

...or when the rider cuts you up on the inside, or races
around at well over the speed limit.

    
    Are we talking about *electric* 'bikes here?  :-)
    
    Brian
    

    I used to have a really dangerous electric bike.
    A Honda 500-4, which had the plug caps for the two outer cylinders
    about 1cm from your knees. Every time it rained it was quite shocking.
    
    Otherwise, bikes are *not* inherently dangerous. I have two of them
    parked in my garage, and they have not caused any injury to man or
    beast for quite some time now.
    
    Rob

I'm not sure if the actual numbers for California came up before, but it is 
2% of the cars sold starting in (or by?) 1997 have to be non-polluting.

I found an article about an Atlanta based company that has developed a 
recharger that supposedly recharges an 'average' electric car (converted 
pickup) in about 18 minutes.  This pickup has 24 batteries that are the 
same type used for backup by telephone companies - what type are those??

This truck ran over 800 miles in a 24 hour period and it averaged 70-90 
miles at 35mph per recharge.

They didn't say if the pickup was a full sized or small one, but even a 
small one would weigh over 3000lbs.  A lighter car would hopefully be able 
to drive faster and go longer between 'fillups'.

Dave

    Has anyone heard of the Chrysler Patriot project ?
    
    If development goes well this car could race at Le Mans. The car is a
    hybrid: rear wheels are powered by an electric motor (triphase async)
    which in turn gets power from an alternator coupled with a small
    constant speed turbine. The accumulator in between the alternator and
    the electric motor is quite interesting: a flywheel spinning up to
    100,000 rpm with motor/alternator. Chassis is all carbon fibre made by
    same supplier as Bugatti GT cars (I think). Electronics all round to
    save energy as much as possible.

    
    re .-1
    
    There was a feature in an issue of Autocar a while back about this car.
    
    I can't remember the numbers, but I think it's about 500 bhp output
    normally, and if they release the stored energy from the flywheel, the
    power goes up to ~750 bhp.
    
    Also, the braking energy produced when slowing down 'charges' the
    flywheel. They have worked out that if it were to race at Le Mans, the
    energy stored in the flywheel when braking at the end of the Mulsanne
    (sp?) straight (~220mph down to whatever speed) would be enough to
    drive the car around the circuit twice more, using nothing but the
    energy stored in the flywheel!
    
    Steve.
    

    re .-1 .-2
    
    A friend of mine is working on the flywheel and traction motor for the
    Patriot (Satcon in Cambridge, MA).  The chassis builder is Reynard. 
    Reynard refuses to allow the braking to be coupled into the drive system, 
    i.e., no regenerative braking.  The turbo-alternator will dump energy
    into the flywheel whenever full power is not required.   If the car
    works, they will have to be very careful not to reveal the true
    performance until DURING the race they want to win.
    
    Bjorn

If you have a flywheel in the car, doesn't that cause you problems when you
go round corners?

nick

>If you have a flywheel in the car, doesn't that cause you problems when you
>go round corners?

I think it should be worded:

-If you have a flywheel in the car, doesn't that cause you problems when you
-*try to* go round corners?


Dave

    If the flywheel is mounted so that it's axis is at 90 deg to the road
    surface (ie so that it spins like a rotary lawnmower) there will be no
    gyroscopic interference with the steering. In fact this will aid
    overall stability and will help prevent the vehicle from rolling over
    because the gyroscopic effect tends to prevent any axial tilting.
    
    However, depending on the weight of the flywheel, stamping on the
    brakes could prove interesting. Talk about a pirhouette 8-)
    
    Gav$trying_to_sound_technical

    I wonder what would happen if you put angled slots in the flywheel, and
    some vents in the engine cover and had a small electric motor to keep it
    spinning? ;-)) Mr Ecclestone (ex Brabham fan car of course) must be
    winding up Max already.....
    
    I bet whatever it turns out to be someone will ban it.

Humm ..... Gyroscopic precession !

Well - If they have a single flywheel they are in real trouble !

If you move a gyroscope across it's plain of rotation you get
a kick or reaction which is equal (to a first order)  to the active 
force. That is the action and reaction are equal. However the 
reaction is not opposite. It is in fact 90 degrees back against
the direction of the gyro's rotation ! 

In practise this means that it is impossible to install such a 
device in a moving body without very strange things 
happening  to the way said device reacts to direction control.

So Smart A*** (I here you say) "how do they get away with
this stuff in aircraft using big fans as part of the engine" ?

The answer is that there is almost never one fan, and each pair of
fans rotate in opposite directions to cancel out the gyroscopic effects.

Which is exactly what these folks are going to have to do - e.g.
Twin flywheels rotating in opposite directions.

Regards,

Nick.

RE: .35

The Patriot was supposed to race in the IMSA Daytona 24 hour race.  Does 
anybody know how it did?

--PSW

    re: last two
    
    The Patriot that was shown at the Detroit Auto Show was a mock up; the
    chassis was real but not the propulsion system. Several of the major 
    propulsion components have not been built.  The goal is to have the car 
    ready for next year's Daytona 24hr and/or LeMans.
    
    Bjorn

    
 >>>   I'm also aware of a more recent diesel powered light train which stored
 >>>   energy in a flywheel, allowing it to make quicker starts. I don't know
 >>>   how it was mounted though.


	There was on Tomorrows World a couple or so weeks ago, a working model
of an Electric powered tramway that used a Flywheel powered unit that was "wound
up" by an electric motor that was powered by electricity picked up only at the
stops.  So there was no need for overhead cables or under road systems as in the
old London Transport trams.

	If I remember correctly, the trams on TW used a form of regenerative
braking too.

				Malcolm.

  Saw an article in the newspaper today about the Swatch watch maker SMH. 
  They have designed a small commuter car which they plan to build with
  M-B.  They don't say what powers it but they do say it should produce
  less pollution than 'conventional cars'.
  
  Dave

    
    This is presumably the same vehicle that Swatch were planning
    to build with VW about a year ago.
    
    VW pulled out when they realised they (VW) were in financial trouble.
    
    Richard.

click KP7 to add PATE::ELECTRIC_VEHICLES to your notebook.

Dave

    Andy Wallace will do the testing of the Reynard-chassied Chrysler
    Patriot.  Wallace asked the project manager from Satcon if there was
    anything he should be aware of about the power unit and was advised not
    to hit anything.  Other than the usual reasons, why?  It turns out that
    at the design rotational rate, the energy stored in the flywheel is
    equal to four times the kinetic energy the mass of the car would have 
    travelling at 200 mph!  Work seems to be on schedule to begin testing 
    the car late this fall.
    
    Bjorn

    It turns out that Satcon is doing some of the spin testing of the power
    unit components for the Patriot at a small facility close to the HLO
    plant.  I got a tour of the facility (several spin pits with air
    compressors, vacuum pumps and instrumentation) at lunch today and
    also got my first look at the flywheel (70 lbs of composite material). 
    The thought of anything going wrong when it's spinning at full design
    speed is pretty scary.
    
    Bjorn  

Article 1565 of rec.autos.sport.info:
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.info
Path:
netnews.alf.dec.com!crl.dec.com!crl.dec.com!caen!hookup!nic.hookup.net!metrics.c
om!tomh
From: Ivan Berg <topgeardata@bbcnc.org.uk>
Subject: MISC: FIA Electro-Solar Cup race announced for UK
Approved: tomh@motorsport.com
Message-ID: <D33AtK.Cqu@metrics.com>
Sender: tomh@metrics.com (Tom Haapanen)
X-Issue-No: 1480
Organization: BBC Top Gear magazine
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 00:32:08 GMT
X-Original-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:58:47 +0000
X-Copyright: Copyright 1994 by Motorsport News International and the author
Followup-To: rec.autos.sport.misc
Lines: 46


BBC MOTORING MAGAZINE SPONSORS ALL-ELECTRIC FIA RACE MEETING

BBC Top Gear magazine is sponsoring the first-ever UK round of the FIA 
(Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) Electro-Solar World Cup at the 
Mallory Park motor racing circuit, near Leicester, England. The event, 
taking place over three days, August 26/27/28, is called The BBC Top Gear 
World Electric Challenge and is open to vehicles meeting the FIA regulations 
in the following classes:

1. Lightweight single-seater electric racing cars under 350 kilos (Karts)
2. Single-seater electric racing cars over 350 kilos
3. Homologated saloon (sedan) cars (i.e., minimum volume manufacture)
4. Electric prototypes (anything goes)
5. Electric motorcycles

The BBC Top Gear Electric Challenge is the first-ever international motor 
race meeting for electric vehicles to be held in the UK.  There will be an 
electric car exhibition and opportunities to ride in the latest electric 
production cars. 

You'll be able to see the previews and the event itself on BBC Worldwide 
TV's news and information channel - available on cable and satellite around 
the world.

If you would like to know more about BBC TV motoring programmes and BBC Top 
Gear magazine, take a look at the BBC Web pages 
<http://www.bbcnc.org.uk/bbctv/>.

We'll be previewing the race meeting on the Web, showing off our 
state-of-the-art electric kart; telling you what it's like to drive the 
ASMO, the world's fastest production electric racing kart (0-60mph in six 
seconds - top speed 103 mph), talking about the electric car scene in 
Europe, and putting up race entry details.

Ivan Berg
Associate Editor New Technology
BBC Top Gear magazine

I


Ivan Berg
BBC Top Gear magazine

I heard on the radio that California *may* be considering letting a hybrid
electric/gas vehicle qualify as part of the 2% rule for 0 emissions cars. 
Apparently the car makers are stating that the technology and markets for
electric cars are just not there.  However, some have a basic electric car with
a small (they didn't say how small) gas engine that constantly recharges the
batteries.

This will allow the gas engine to run at a constant speed and the battery takes
up the 'buffering' of power needed to move the vehicle.  It would also allow for
a longer driving range.

At least they mentioned the point that an electric car is not really 0
emissions.  The electricity to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere,
and that somewhere (a power plant) usually produces pollution, unless it's a
hydro, solar or wind powered station.

Dave

    I too believe that we'll see hybrids take off in the coming years. The
    EV industry has been waiting for a giant step in battery technology but
    nothing has come so far ...
    
    France continues to push the EV and the numerous pilot cities, but
    we're still talking of cars weighing 1.5 ton to carry 2 to 4 passengers
    at up to 75kph on a distance of 50 to 100km between recharges. Not very
    useful ...

    
    Re: .56
    
    Actually, hydroelectric power causes pollution too.  It adds heat to
    the water, noise to the air and visual pollution to nature.  On top of
    that, the typical hydro development causes flooding over a vast area,
    ruining natural beauty and habitat, and causing the displacement of 
    animals including humans.
    
    Brian Pituley
    

...but the argumentative might say that the area, and more besides,
could be damaged by acid rain caused by alternative chemical powered
generators...

Chris.

    Re: .58
    
>    Actually, hydroelectric power causes pollution too.  It adds heat to
>    the water ...

    Removes heat from the water to be precise. 

    -John

    Hmmmm.....I have always thought that making something do work would make
    it warm up......but you may be right on the "removes heat" bit.....I've
    never claimed to be an expert on such matters.  Either way it damages
    (or at least changes) the environment.
    
    Brian Pituley
                          

I thought that hydro-elecrtics took advantage of potential energy
by reduction is altitude; if anything, the water is heated by the
friction in the process...

Chris.

    Yup,
    
    i thought that in Hydro, the water lost potential energy, gaining
    kinetic energy (and a little heat due to fiction through the pipes and
    slight compression). As it passed through the turbines, most of the
    kinetic energy in the water changes to kinetic energy in the blades,
    shafts and generators, which produces electricity and heat. Turbulence
    etc would also cause more heat energy in the water, and as the
    remaining kinetic energy is dispersed as the water hits the bottom
    lake, this too is converted to heat.
    
    Or something like that!
    
    mb

    making batteries causes pollution too
    
    i believe there is a study whose results are due out soon that
    indicates the net effect will be worse
    
    (probably sponsored by an oil company!)
    
    ric$cynic

    re: last
    
    
    Not necessarily so......the drop involved in a hydro project is often
    an exageration of the drop that existed in nature.  For example, look
    at the Hoover Dam in the US or, for that matter, the James Bay
    development in Quebec, Canada.  In both cases, the drop required to
    create a saleable(sp?) amount of power was created by damming up a
    river that had a longer series of smaller drops.  
    
    In terms of personal experience, I lived in a small town in northern
    Quebec that had its own hydro dam.  In the lake below the dam, a
    species of fish (pike) that likes warmer water was thriving as were various
    aquatic plants.  In the reservoir above the dam, the plants were much
    smaller and the pike were far less numerous and smaller.  The lake
    below the dam became known throughout the north as *the* place to catch
    pike.  I personally caught a three foot long specimen when I was about
    four feet tall....
    
    In the winter, the ice on the lower lake was never thick enough to walk
    on safely while the intake side of the dam was regularly plugged by the
    much thicker ice of the colder lake.  Really cold winters made for
    frequent power outages......clearing the ice from the intakes wasn't a
    fun time. 
    
    Brian Pituley
    
    
    

    re .66
    
    The total release of energy to the environment must have decreased with
    the hydro dam. However the energy is now all released at the foot of
    the dam, and before the dam was built it was released along the length
    of the (now submerged) river bed.
    
    Andrew

We took the '24 to a local car over the weekend.  They had lots of street rods,
a few antiques and some trucks.  One of the strangest vehicles there was a
1913 Detroit Electric coupe.  It was designed as a woman's car, nicely restored
with a plush interior and a tiller instead of a steering wheel!

It looked like it ran on 24v - it had 4 batteries up front and 4 in the back with
a 24v converter at each end.  The motor has 5 'speeds' controlled from a
rotating handle like on a motorcyle.

Dave