Conference terri::cars_uk

	I would go for toll charges, and no car road tax.

	The car road tax is often 'forgotten' by many people, and not paid,
	it is also a standard charge for everyone, not related to the
	amount the roads are used.

	Have the tolls, the ones that use it most, pay the most.

	Heather - who used to pay the Tamar bridge toll every day......

It's just another way for the government to bolster up their disastrous economic
policies, we are obviously running out of things to sell.

Dave.

    Scrap road tax (this is an old suggestion, I know), certainly
    don't add another road tax.  Simply tax fuel more highly.  This tax
    would be hard to avoid, unlike road tax.

    The problem with scrapping road tax is that they'd still want some sort
    of sticker in your window (insurance, MOT or the like) just to make
    them feel comfortable that you're registered.  There would, of course,
    be a small administrative fee to cover the issue of this sticker.  Then
    prices would go up - inflation, etc - and then they'd get greedy...
    
    So you'd end up with even more tax on fuel and still have an expensive
    bit of paper in your windscreen.
    
    Richard (who wouldn't trust the government as far as he could kick them
    up a chimney....)
    

    It's not that bad.
    
    We (in Switzerland) pay road tax based on the size of engine and an
    additional Sfr 30.-- a year if we want to use motorways. 5 years ago
    when this was introduced it was an outrage - but we got used to it and
    next year it will be increased to Sfr 50.- /year.
    
    The principle is that the extra money allows the motorway network to be
    maintained properly, also all motorway users must pay - tourists
    included.
    
    Paul

    
    It's the return of the highwaymen,but in boothes!
    
    
    I wouldn't mind but roads planning/surfaces aren't improving!
    
    	Andy

how about something radical, like using the road tax on the roads ?

    
    Re.6
    
    Out of interest, have you actually been on some of the Swiss motorways
    recently? From here to Geneva, it's OK, but going north is horrific! 

    
    re .9,
        Jane, although using the road tax on the road maybe a good idea, I
    would still prefer tarmac, as it's a little more durable than bank
    notes.  :-)
    
    Alan.
    
    ps. will it be cheaper for motorcycles (as per road tax/excise licence)
    

    
    If they decide to impose a "motorway usage" tax, rather than tolls,
    would it apply per vehicle or per driver.
    
    Ie if I had my own car plus a company car would I need to pay twice
    even if I could only drive one at a time?
    
    If I borrowed a car while mine was in dock, would that have to
    be taxed for motorways too (if I needed to travel by m-way of course)
    even if it's owner never travelled by M-way?

Initially the idea of tolls infuriated me - yet another example of the tories
bungling (I am SOOOOO glad they got in this time to finally carry the can)

With no viable alternative to roads after the mess the tories have made of
public transport, a tax on motorways will just make us poor people use A roads
leaving nice clear motorways paid for by us and used by the rich (the Bastards)

The problem is not the roads it's how we use them - one person per tin box -
busses and trains need to be improved considerably so that car use is seen as
almost ridiculous - only used if there is no other way .

So, tax fuel to discourage gas guzzlers - cars that do less than (say) 30 mile
per gallon should pay HUGE amounts of fuel tax

Have a road fund licence as a kind of membership / registration fee for tax by
the mile scheme - maybe the disk is the electronics to register the charges
and charge for road usage by the mile
This will discourage journeys, we all live too far from families/friends/work
because we can travel so easily and cheaply, bring back smaller towns where you
can walk to anywhere you need to

Vastly improve taxis, busses, and trains. So that long journeys are easy and
cheap without the delays 

Send freight by train not road (lorries at each end of the train journey - a
bit like BT/mercury phone lines)


Get the feeling I could go on and on?
Basically we need to improve alternatives to road before road usage can be
chrged per mile

Paul

    
    ....When this (or any other) Government starts spending the revenue
    collected from Taxes on Petrol and Road Fund Licenses on the Road
    system that they allow us the *privilege* of using, then they just
    might have a point; Until then it just serves to highlight their
    complete lack of understanding of 'the man on the streets' point of
    view...
    
    Graham

The timing of this is a bit suspicious given the privatisation of BR....

re .14

>>This will discourage journeys, we all live too far from 
>>families/friends/work because we can travel so easily and cheaply, 
>>bring back smaller towns where you can walk to anywhere you need to

Whilst I agree with most of what the author of .14 says I must disagree 
with the above statement.

I Live far from my family because of my job, I could not work for this 
compnay if I lived near my family. 

I Live 20 Miles away from the Office. The reason I do that is that I 
prefer to live in a village which provides my family with a better 
standard of living, in a cleaner environment, in a house that does not 
cost us the earth in comparison to living in a city which is expensive 
and dirty.

The comment in .14 suggests to me that the author would prefer us all to 
work in a feudal society where our lives are governed by the local lord 
of the manor - GET REAL!

    
    It's sad to see that people still think (and probably rightly so)
    that they HAVE to be physically located close to their office. Most 
    of the work done by Digital doesn't require a 'bums on seats' approach,
    and some people DO work some of the time from home.
    
    Hopefully, in my lifetime, it won't be neccesary for programmers to
    drive 60 miles a day to type at a keyboard for 7 hours. Really, it's 
    laughable, but it's still the norm.
    
    Let's hear it for tele-commuting, tele-cottages and home working!
    
    Mark

>   Hopefully, in my lifetime, it won't be neccesary for programmers to
>   drive 60 miles a day to type at a keyboard for 7 hours. Really, it's 
>   laughable, but it's still the norm.
    
    <rathole alert>
    It might not be necessary but I quite like to meet real people,
    spending all day every day in my tele-cottage would send me
    tele-bonkers.  My current job involves time on customer site and time
    in the office, a mix I quite like.
    <end rathole>
    
    Under the new system would hire cars come with M-way licenses or would
    you pay as you went (or just stick to ordinary roads) ?
    

re .19

>I Live far from my family because of my job, I could not work for this 
>compnay if I lived near my family. 

me to

>I Live 20 Miles away from the Office. The reason I do that is that I 
>prefer to live in a village which provides my family with a better 
>standard of living, in a cleaner environment, in a house that does not 
>cost us the earth in comparison to living in a city which is expensive 
>and dirty.

I would if could afford this

>The comment in .14 suggests to me that the author would prefer us all to 
>work in a feudal society where our lives are governed by the local lord 
>of the manor - GET REAL!

nope

piling everything (like housing estates and industrial estates and shopping
complexes) into huge towns is what I hate

If this didn't happen, maybe jobs would move to the people rather than us
moving to them

but lets not rathole....

what I meant was because travelling by car is cheap and easy we are prepared to
do it. Making travel by car priced per mile instead of a yearly charge could be
good if it encourages people to use their cars less or share or use public
transport etc.

good that is, for the environment, other road users (less traffic) and
pedestrains/cyclists (less cars => less accidents)


cheers,
	Paul

    ... but the government don't want people to use their car less, or for
    people to use public transport for that matter. They want as many cars
    on the road as they can cram, cos every (legal) one of them currently
    pay road tax, and every long distance one of them will pay motorway
    tolls. If the motorist doesn't stump up enough, there'll be taxes else
    where. They just want money & aren't interested in what is best for the
    motorist/the traveller/people who breathe air etc.
    
    This is quite unfortunate, because if a re-think of road tax/toll roads
    is taking place it would be an ideal opportunity to point people
    towards public transport.
    
    Andy
    
    P.S. Don't forget our canal system for long distance heavy haulage!

re .22


>I Live 20 Miles away from the Office. The reason I do that is that I 
>prefer to live in a village which provides my family with a better 
>>standard of living, in a cleaner environment, in a house that does not 
>>cost us the earth in comparison to living in a city which is expensive 
>>and dirty.

>I would if could afford this

The point I was making was that housing up here in the the North 
Yorkshire area IS cheaper than in the CITY, Hence you could afford to 
live in a village instead of paying high prices for houses in the city!

END OF RATHOLE!! 8^)

Having got that off my chest, I do happen to agree with everything else 
that you said. I do try to work from home when I can to minimise the 
travel. If I had the appropriate equipment, I would do more work from 
home, unfortunately the company (the org. I work in) will not provide me 
with PC, Modem, etc so I need to come into the office most days, when 
not on site with customers.

>piling everything (like housing estates and industrial estates and 
>shopping complexes) into huge towns is what I hate

The reason I prefer to live in a village is for this very reason - was 
brought up in a village and have NEVER liked living in towns and cities 
(2 Years in Central London nearly killed me!!)

regards

malcolm

P.S. I for one would NOT pay to use a facility for which, we the 
motorists, have already paid for many times over. If the govt. had a 
credible transport policy and could move the goods currently travelling 
by road back to rail, the roads would not wear out so quickly, thus 
obviating the need to repair them so frequently.
 

    The point about paying for motorway usage is that it is nothing to do
    with the government's transport policy (which doesn't exist anyway), it
    is simply that the government sees an opportunity for revenue.
    
    Richard
    

    The motor car has been badgered by political dogma for many years now.
    Transport policy has changed to transport revenue raising.
    
    Unfortunately our motoring is no longer under control. perhaps its the
    time to refocus on either banning outright use of all cars, or
    minimising the waste in the system. Dont blame the motorist for the
    waste, its not my choice to sit in a traffic jam. I'm happy that I'm
    legally entitled to use my car, I've paid & paid again for the
    privilege. My message is stop the waste, spend the money I've
    generously given to make cars get to their destination. If this means
    Motorway toll booths (aha, he's back on track :^)) then so be it. I
    fail to see though that toll booths will make my journeys on A-roads
    any easier. We moan about motorways, but where is the waste ? Its
    normally off the motorway, where we all sit with our engines running.
    We all know the problems, "This junction isnt wide enough, traffic
    lights are needed here" & so on. Toll booths ?  GRRRRRR.
    No amount of urban bus lanes is going to fix the obvious either
    (Re-addressing the polital balance here).
    
    Tony.
    

    
    Perhaps the government *want* traffic jams... we use more petrol so pay
    more tax
    
    

    If the govt do introduce this SCAM?, as per previous notes, most will
    use A routes to and from wherever??. This obviously, will congest the
    surrounding roadways defeating the purpose of some bypasses???.
    Those transport companies that would use the toll routes, would of
    course increase their charges to compensate for extra cost?, thus 
    making the shop/services passing the increased delivery charges back
    onto ( GUESS WHO???????), you got it, YOU + ME...
    
    LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD Mr MAJOR, GET A SENSIBLE TRANSPORT POLICY, TO
    GET PEOPLE BACK ON THE PUBLIC TRANSPORT SYSTEM?.
    UNTIL THEN, WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH WHATEVER THEY THROW AT US?????.
    
    P.S. Why not start to reuse the rivers and canals again to shift
    goods?, maybe a return to the good old days??.
    
    Stay safe
    		Colin.

    
    To those people who have requested that the government spend the
    excess "tax collected from road users" on road purposes:
    
    Estimates of how much the actual number is varies depending on who you
    talk to. However, would you really want to live in a country which
    spent (say) twice as much on roads as it does now. How long would it be
    before there was no actual country left, just a huge gyratory system ?
    
    Trevor

    Come on, no-ones going to go out & buy more cars just because the roads
    have been rescued. I'm not going to make any more journeys just because
    I can.
    
    Buses are nice to go to work on, provided they go where you are going.
    When taking the bus is the right thing to do, I do it.
    I use car-pools when I can. I'm doing my bit.
    
    I get sick of hearing "Take a BUS" every time I suggest that our leaders
    are squandering our national & natural resources by encouraging us to
    sit in stationary cars getting nowhere achieving nothing & paying for
    the privelege. We car drivers must stop feeling guilty about necessary
    car journeys. We dont make the rules. All the catalytic convertors in
    the world wont amount to 2d worth in a preventable traffic jam.
    
    Tony.

Just pondering over the figures in .12, it appears that the cost of
accidents is OVER FOUR TIMES the second greatest cost, which is the
national roads (including motorways).

Motorways are the safest roads (per driven mile), so if we charge for
their use and people move to other roads, then the number of accidents
will increase, and this extra cost may well exceed the revenue from tolls.

My solution would be to build 4 times as many motorways using the money
that _would_ have been spent on accidents!!!!!


Just kiddin', but it makes you think!

mb

p.s.

Is the cost of accidents "on top of" or including the insurance claims?

    After driving 550 miles in 8 hours costing around 40+ pounds in road
    tolls in France and Spain this weekend I still prefer to take the
    motorway and pay the cost because I know that there would be no way
    we could cover these sorts of distances in a reasonable amount of time
    by using french "D" type roads. Same for the Valbonne/Munich (via.
    Italy) and Valbonne/UK routes which we've done a number of times which
    also costs a fair bit. 
    
    I still wonder though how much actually is used to pay off loans (when
    building the things), maintainance and building new M-ways.
    
    Wasn't there also talk sometime back about road tolls in Germany as
    well?

    
    
    Why should any Government not tax motorways? And if they do, why should
    they spend the money on roads? I've never thought that the point of 
    taxation was to spend the money again on those who had provided it.  
    
    This Government doesn't have a transport policy. However, to operate
    a transport policy that met the demands being placed on it today, 
    would cost far more than could reasonably be justified given the desire 
    for spending on health, education and welfare.
    
    I have no sympathy for people who commute long distances every day.
    and I am one of them. I certainly don't think we should be subsidising
    transport, either public or private to in any way encourage people
    to commute long distances. I would prefer to tax these people for
    overburdening both the public and private transport networks.
    
    Spending huge sums huge sums providing vast rail and road networks
    to encourage people to travel millions of miles should not be 
    considered as a transport policy. I think people need to be encouraged 
    to live, work and shop locally. A transport policy that supported those
    goals would offer a safe, pollution 'free' and integrated free local 
    transport system that consisted of more than just a few buses and
    trams. 
    
    Richard.
    
    

>		I can't imagine the tolls would be that expensive, lots
>out here are only 7-20 ffrs... a couple of quid.

One can almost guarantee that the British system would not be so sensible as 
the French system in this instance...

    How is this going to be achieved ? Will there be toll booths at every 
    junction or what. Are going to have to queue to get onto the m'way ?
    
    Royston

	I believe that even this government does not think that adding
	toll booths to existing motorways would be practical.  They seem to
	be thinking about electronic tagging (didn't they try that with
	prisoners a while back and fail?).

	Dave

    If they use electronic tagging then there's nothing to stop them
    demanding the speeding fine as well as the toll when you leave the
    motorway :-)
    
    Seriously though, has anyone heard of a motorist being nicked for
    speeding between toll booths on a peage (ie distance*time).
    
    Ian.

    Rumour has it that Group 4 are to tender for the electronic tagging
    system.
    
    
    Simon

    In France you have several types of motorway tolls. 
    
    Those which you pay when you enter/exit the motorway with no ticket and
    therefore it's tough luck if you pay on entry and just go 5 kms instead
    of the full distance before the next toll (like Antibes to Nice).
    Others you collect a ticket and then pay on exit or until that pay
    section ends etc. this works out a little more fair.
    
    In Italy you only need to pay twice when say driving from the Brenner
    to here (around 400 miles) which is nice and saves farting around. Mind
    you the peage on the Italian/French border down the road from here is a
    mob scene so try to avoid it during normal travelling hours in the
    holiday season. We got stuck for an hour or so there Easter weekend. I
    would hate to think what it's like once the real holiday season gets
    underway. 
    
    Same goes for Barcelona, as we found out this weekend, in both the
    north and south directions, they were also mob scenes. The northern
    direction was particularly bad due to some work on the motorway that 
    went on for miles which didn't help all the locals flocking to the
    coast. Once we got anywhere near the French border it was plain sailing
    again. 
    
    Dave

I caught a  glimpse of a small article in The Independent
last week saying that the Government is thinking of selling
of some of Britains Roads to private firms to maintain.

I have not heard of anything since then, so I don't know
how reliable the source is. Frankly though, I wouldn't
be surprised if this happens.

As for tolling motorways. I believe the fairest way is to tax
on fuel alone - the more you drive, the more you contribute.
Seems fair to me.

Ian

    RE: .41
    
    Ian,
    
>>    If they use electronic tagging then there's nothing to stop them
>>    demanding the speeding fine as well as the toll when you leave the
>>    motorway :-)
>>    
>>    Seriously though, has anyone heard of a motorist being nicked for
>>    speeding between toll booths on a peage (ie distance*time).
 
    Oh yes, it happens in France. I don't think that the toll booth person
    gets told that you've been a naughty boy it's the flick/bill that have
    to check and nab you... It doesn't happen often though that they try
    this scam.
    
    About the electronic tagging, when driving upto a toll booth near
    Monte-Carlo a couple of months back a Porsche went shooting through at
    an amazing speed (no room for error). I doubt even if this person
    didn't have the electronic tag they would have managed to catch him
    with a camera or whatever they use to catch the pay dodgers.
    
    Dave

I for one would feel very unhappy about electronic tagging, as it means
that "Big Brother" knows exactly where you have been, and when you were
there.

Besides, this must be a very expensive scheme, with fancy electronics
being fitted to all cars and all junctions.

My vote is "Stick it on petrol" (and Diesel)

mb

>Note 2092.42                  Tolls for Motorways.                      42 of 46
>
>    Rumour has it that Group 4 are to tender for the electronic tagging
>    system.

I *hope* this is a joke

Paul~

    
    As far as I can make out, in France, they often set up speed traps
    before the toll booths. Say 5 km before. It might appear that you have
    been done for the time you took between booths, but I doubt it. As Dave
    pointed out, you can travel a long way between tolls, and all you have
    to do is have lunch, and your average drops very quickly.
    
    This is what "snoopy" informs me.

    
    Some 12 years ago, I was fined ff900 for speeding between booths on the
    A6 south of Paris.  The Gendarme was in the booth with the cashier and
    signalled me over to the side of the M-Way beyond the booth where I was
    processed.  The ticket has imprinted on it the start time on entry to
    the M-Way and the distance in Kms covered, pretty easy to work out
    average speeds.  I now always have a pee/petrol or food break between
    long peage sections or abide strictly to the limit (on average).
    
    
    Nev.

    
    You don't always see the radar vans/cars/man hiding in bushes. Are you
    sure it was distance covered/time?
    
    BTW, anybody taking a holiday in Switzerland, watch out, I've been done
    3 times in a year - hence snoopy!

    There was a piece on Radio 4 about a month ago where a company was
    demonstrating a system which translated number plates from a video
    camera in almost real time, certainly less than a second to grab a
    frame and pull out the number plate. They were showing over 90%
    accuracy and just pointed a camera at the motorway lane. I suppose we'd
    all pray for fog. The company was pretty scathing about gatso having
    any kind of long life.
    
    Andrew

    
    
    Isn't the real point that we're paying already (and more) in car tax 
    and fuel tax? Not about the method by which they might enforce it. If
    they try any tagging method whatsoever I'll be first on the bandwaggon
    with the false tag which is bound to appear very soon afterwards. I
    abject to the whole idea of paying yet more in an area where they only
    spend about 40% of the money anyway on the roads. Huh....!
    
    								G.P
    								 

    Re .-1 
    
    they're not out to get more funding for roads, but to raise funds for
    the budget deficit.
    
    Huw.

    
    Re -.2
    
    Car tax was abolished earlier this year. The greedy manufacturers just
    raised their prices instead.
    
    Richard.
    

    
    
    Sorry, by Car Tax I meant road tax...and revenue generated from roads
    should be spent on roads...all of it....before they try and milk the
    motorist for anymore...IMHO.
    
    
    							G.P

    Re .57 >and revenue generated from road should be spent on roads...
            all of it...
    
    With respect, this is a very simplistic approach to taxation. Why not
    argue that all cigarette tax should be spent on cancer clinics and all
    beer tax on pubs. Wrong thinking. 
    
    The problem here is that the Government has no coherent long term
    transport policy. Party politics rule and the people we elect and pay
    to make the best decision for the UK just do NOT do the job. They argue 
    like spoilt children, make decisions to get themselves re-elected and don't
    care who they stab in the back to do it. 
    
    Just ask yourself where the North Sea Oil and privatisation money went 
    to in the 80's. It was used to keep the Government of the day in power.
    Now the 80's have been wasted, sooner or later we will all have to pay
    the price, and if you drive a car your're a soft target.
    
    	Richard.

    On a slightly different tack...I read in the papers at the weekend that
    there are plans for Group 4 to have some responsibility in a
    'privatised motorway force'.  They would be able to tape speeders and
    dangerous drivers, and pass the tapes onto the police, or call them
    ahead, but not to stop them or chase them.  Cynics might say that if
    Group 4 are involved, you'll be able to get away with it every time...
    
    Mikef

    re: .58
    
    I used to work for an outfit that was involved in the oil industry, and
    in one of the offices there was this sign:
    
    		OH GOD please let there be one more
    		oil boom.  We promise not to piss it
    		all away next time.
    
    Richard
    

    Well, it looks like becoming a reality. I heard on the radio there will
    be a pilot scheme on the M3 from Basingstoke (i assume London bound).
    
    What form will this take ? Toll booths ? Electronic tagging ? How much
    etc ?
    
    Royston

	Re .last

	The experiment will not involve the public, it will be done by
	Department of Transport officials. They are testing three different
	electronic tagging systems. The sensors will be on bridges (I think
	it is between junctions 10 and 11 - is that in Hampshire?). They are
	also testing a satelite tracking system.

	Ian.

It's the stretch to the south-west of Basingstoke - I presume Dummer to
Winchester, but I'm not sure of the numbers - 10 to 11 sounds too high, I'd have
guessed 7 to 8.  I presume that it'll be in both directions, since there are a
number of technologies to be put on trail.

T

    
    Although the technology may be made to work well, it seems to me that
    all the tourists and those driving non-Brit registered cars will 
    avoid payment. 
    
    Richard.

All this stuff about motorway tolls doesn't really bother me; I generally
avoid driving on motorways anyway, as I find them very tedious, so I'll
just switch the small amount of motorway driving I do onto A-roads or
backroads, whatever is most convenient.

Chris.

    
    I'd go along with that, except that I - and a few thousand other
    motorists - have to cross the Thelwall viaduct on the M6 every working
    day as there are no viable alternatives.
    
    Having taxed petrol to the hilt and got the whole driving population used
    to the idea that Road fund license goes up every year, they're now going
    to tax the use of Motorways as well ! This is supposedly being done so
    that the money raised can be re-invested in roads....
    
    When the money being raised from Petrol tax and Road fund liocenses is
    spent on roads instead of funding tax-cuts, then I might go along with
    Toll roads, until then it's just another reason to get this blinkered and
    short sighted governement out of office as soon as possible.
   
    Just my opinion of course, but one shared by a growing number of
    drivers & voters
    
    Graham

    re -.1 
    
    If you *really* want to continue enjoying the benefits of car ownership
    long into the future (and I know I do!), you'll vote for whoever is
    going to invest in public transport. I would like to see people
    encouraged off the roads by a good alternative to the car, rather than 
    priced off them with ever increasing taxes!
    
    Tony I

    
    re:.68
    
    Well said that man.
    
    Chris.

    
    re .68 & .69 i quite agree too... when they start investing in stead of
    selling, then perhaps they'll get my vote. Privatising the Bus and
    Rail networks does nothing for those of us who live in area's where any
    form of private investment is seen as un-profitable.
    
    G.

Didn't BR excuse a price increase a while ago on the fact that they were
trying to discourage commuters because they didn't have the capacity?

Chris.

Hi,

    can anyone give me a rough idea how much it will be likely to cost in 
toll charges to drive from, say, Calais to Italy, via the french autoroute
system ?

Ta.

    Try Euro_Travel notesfile...
    
    
    Tony.

    
    It's approximately FFr 100 from Calais to either Paris or Reims
    and approximately FFr 200 from either Reims or Paris to Geneva.
    
    If you're planning to go via the Mont Blanc tunnel, that also has a toll 
    which I think is about FFr250 return (maybe more!). 
    
    Or you could go over the St Gotthard (free) or through the tunnel on
    a train which I think is about SFr 25. This shouldn't involve using
    any Swiss motorways for which there would be a once off SFr 40 charge 
    for unlimited used in 1996. 
    
    Unless time is very important to you, I'd recommend going over the top
    of the St Gotthard. Cheap and great scenery.
    
    Richard.

    <<< Note 2092.72 by WOTVAX::WATSONR "Lambs... so cute... but so tasty
    !" >>>
                             -< Frog autoroute charges ? >-
    
    Hi,
    
    can anyone give me a rough idea how much it will be likely to cost in
    toll charges to drive from, say, Calais to Italy, via the french
    autoroute system ?
    
    Ta.
    
    	EURO_MOTORING has all the French Autoroute toll charges listed.
    Try DIR/TIT=TOLLS to find the specific notes.
    
    				Malcolm.