Conference terri::cars_uk

    Now that WOULD be a good way of ensuring everyone has to buy a new car,
    and provide a welcome boost to the car industry

    Well, April 1st isn't far off is it.

re.0:

Yes, it's true. Lorries will be making the change in 1995, cars follow in 1996.

Dave.

    
    it's true....a trial period will be operating shortly. The only
    vehicles that shall be permitted to partake in the trial are those with
    a gross laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes..  :-)
    
    Alan.
    

    Actually, you all laugh, but apparently there is a clause in the
    Maastricht treaty which gives the "majority" the right to insist that
    the "minority" drive on the right. Said treaty is on-line, in EF93, so
    interested parties could check for themselves.
    
    Laurie.

    Sweden (I think) made this change a few years ago - there's a wonderful
    photo of <some main street> at the exact moment of the change-over,
    with lorries and cars crossing over in front of one another.
    
    So it can be done. I suppose.
    
    D.

   	That photo would have been staged!  From what I recall, the change
   was made at midnight, there was a short period where NO vehicles were
   allowed to move and a longer period either side where only emergency
   vehicles were allowed to travel.
   
   	Just the cost of the changes would be prohibitive, as most
   junctions on recent major roads are designed for traffic flow coming
   from a particular side, with non-symetrical entry and exit zones.  When
   Sweden made the change, quite a few years ago, their road network was
   much simpler than the UK's is now.
   
   	IIRC, there are 40-odd countries that drive on the left, excluding
   the UK, including Australia, New Zealand & Japan, so we're hardly alone.

    I think Sweden changed in the 1950s. And even after country-wide
    publicity there were still some fatalities.   I think we're too far
    down the line for any change to be practical.
    
    Huw.

Doesn't China drive on the left?

I reckon that we are in the MAJORITY!!!!!!


mb

re .3

How will this work? Lorries driving on the right and cars on 
the left in 1995. This couls cause a few accidents.

Ian

    When I went to Gib a few years ago I'm sure they drove on the right.
    
    Royston

    RE: China --
    
    During the height of the Cultural Revolution, they tried to change the
    interpretation of traffic lights - red (being the Revolutionary Colour)
    was to mean Go, and Green Stop.
    
    It wasn't a success, as only about half the drivers had heard about it.
    They changed back after a few days.
    
    D.

    I'd heard from someone who worked in a council traffic department, that
    all roads in this country for the past few years HAVE been designed
    for interchangable left/right handed-ness just in case we ever
    switched.
    
    Pete

    
     There are always people who will say it cant be done, but if war broke
    out tomorrow, we would do anything to preserve our country & ignor the
    practicalities.
    
    I like to think of the jobs boost the transfer will give us. As we have
    an army of workers & a shortage of work, perhaps this is THE time to
    make roadsigns, lay the odd bit of tarmac & get the workshops of Britain
    to turn out budget RHD kits. If we then decide to revert
    to driving on the left then we'd just have to wait till the next
    depression 8^).
    
    On the other hand, why would we want to drive on the right ?
    
    Tony.

    Why? Because of the "cost" you have by not doing so!
    Britains current economic position does not warrant any
    "Island-syndroms". Just think of the import/export of the motor
    industry.  
    
    re 17 is spot on I guess. Just muddle on and the recesssion you'l land
    into will make it a very cheap operation.
    
    Btw: The Chinese have a "green-light" district as opposed to our
    "red-light" ones.
    
    Peter

    
    Re .18
    
    The cost of changing over would far outweigh the costs of "staying
    on the left" - in fact I don't agree that there is any extra cost
    to us of "staying on the left".
    
    
    btw. Japan drive on the same side as the UK - and they probably have
    the biggest motor industry in the world....
    
    Richard.

    Re .19 by MILE::JENKINS
    
    >    The cost of changing over would far outweigh the costs of "staying
    >    on the left" - in fact I don't agree that there is any extra cost
    >    to us of "staying on the left".
    
    But we would be able to pop over to Belgium and buy our LHD cars alot
    cheaper than the RHD equivalent in the UK.

    But the LHD/RHD cost difference is totally artificial. If the UK
    changed to LHD, the car industry would find another reason to keep
    the prices high ...

    > I was referring to the island attitude that England can no longer afford.
    
    Ahem Ahem, since when was England an Island?  What about Wales?
    
    It's the English imperial attitude and not how we drive that causes the 
    isolationist views.
    
    Huw.             
    
    P.S. sorry to stray off the point but I wouldn't let it lie! 

>    Japan is the second largest market after Europe and the US.

Doesn't that make it the third largest market?



	Ian

    >can no longer afford. It's not just about left vs. right, it's about inches
    >vs. centimeters too, it's about uniting forces, about conforming to
    >"standards".
    
    Japan, much of SE Asia and Australia drive on the same side as the UK. 
    This is a large total market that demonstrates there can be multiple,
    co-existing standards - just as there are in the computer market.
    

    Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand and a few
    of the South Pacific Islands drive on the left.  I'm not sure about
    Burma or India.

    India drive in the middle, or so I've been lead to believe
    (no disrespect intended ...). Probably the cars are mostly
    RHD though ... don't they still make the old Austin Westminster
    and the like there ?

1) Most British Engineering went metric in the 70's
2) The correct measurement stds are m and mm. cms are old
hat!
3) The americans are still hanging on to " and '
thats why British racing car producers have to produce the
things with " cos the yanks buy the most racing cars and
they can only get "  fasteners easily in the states.
4) As regards compliance to EEC directives the U.K. is
one of the leaders. unlike some across the channel
who like diesel with their fish and Lamb with petrol!

    1. I believe that China uses inches etc (they certainly used to).
    
    2. Amazingly, some of (Continental) Europe does too -- ask your
    friendly German gas-man to install a large pipe (for an industrial
    oven) and it'll be 2-inch (or whatever) pipe.
    
    And I believe that "Un demi" (of beer) is derived from it's being
    (somewhere near) a half-pint. Also a pintsche (Belgian - not sure of
    spelling) means a "small pint".
    
    D.

    Alright Il'l add my two penneth worth......
    
    There is obviously a lot of jesting here. But let's get one thing
    straight. Who cares about, China, Japan, Australia or whatever. How
    often do you guys take your car over there? More and more people use
    there car these days throughout EUROPE, and it would make perfect sense
    to all drive on the same side of the road. That means as far as EUROPE
    goes we are out voted! There are two many accidents caused by someone
    driving off a garage forcourt on hols, and forgetting that they should
    be on the otherside of the road!
    
    I'm in favour! Do it now.
    
    Keith.

>>1) Most British Engineering went metric in the 70's
    
    Did it ?  I completed my engineering apprenticeship in 1981 and all was
    still imperial then. In fact I'd heard recently that British
    engineering firms have totally abandoned the concept of going metric.
    
    Pete
    

	I took maths O levels in 1969, physics in 70, amd maths and physics
	A levels in 72 - they were all metric, in fact SI, so not even cm.

	I was a bit difficult working on a saturday on a sweet and veg counter,
	working in old money and weights, having only been taught metric from
	the age of 11........but for a quid, I wasn't going to complain!

    
	Heather

    I've just bought 15 sq Yds of 4M wide carpet 8^)
    
    "Why should we want to drive on the right" was of course a rhetorical
    question, I would still like to see pan-European standards wherever
    thats prudent.
    
    Semantics 'English=British', that will make Britain an island. I still
    dont understand though Peter why drive-on-the-left will be our
    financial demise. To me its just personal preference

*** USAGE ALERT ***

>    There is obviously a lot of jesting here. But let's get one thing
>    straight. Who cares about, China, Japan, Australia or whatever. How
>    often do you guys take your car over there? More and more people use
>    *there* car these days throughout EUROPE, and it would make perfect sense
>    to all drive on the same side of the road. That means as far as EUROPE
>    goes we are out voted! There are *two* many accidents caused by someone
>    driving off a garage forcourt on hols, and forgetting that they should
>    be on the otherside of the road!

Never mind driving on the write (sic), get you're (sic) spelling right!

>    There is obviously a lot of jesting here. But let's get one thing
>    straight. Who cares about, China, Japan, Australia or whatever. How
>    often do you guys take your car over there? More and more people use
>    *there* car these days throughout EUROPE, and it would make perfect sense
>    to all drive on the same side of the road. 


	I don't take my car abroad - I fly there and hire one when I get there.

	That way I can get a car that is suitable for the local conditions.

	The only time we didn't do this was going to Guernsey, and I wish
	I had kept to my normal rule. 

	Heather

    Yeah, It's about time everyone drove on the same side.  As soon as all
    these foreigners change to the Brit way of driving the better.
    
    
    Nev

re.30:

> There are two many accidents caused by someone driving off a garage forcourt
> on hols, and forgetting that they should be on the otherside of the road!

Which two were too much? How many were there altogether?

Dave.

    O.K.
    
    I've had enough of this conference. If you lot can't think of better
    ways to spend your time than picking up on  spelling  mistakes then I'll go
    elsewhere, it's obvious you couldn't put a sensible reply together if
    you tried!                                                   
    
    As for the flying into Europe, I suppose that's alright for high flying
    money makers that earn a fortune!
    
    Some of us don't!
    
    Keith.

	there was a paper in Nature(?) about 20 years ago that
	suggested that there could be a link between tornadoes
	and driving on the right in the northern hemisphere. (i
	can't remember whether it was the april issue.)
	
	jack 

    
>    As for the flying into Europe, I suppose that's alright for high flying
>    money makers that earn a fortune!
 
	My trip to portugal is 107 quid - the ferry alone would be more than 
	that, let alone driving down to the Algarve.

	And I would not have any holiday, by the time I drove there and back.

   	I bought my ticket early, if I had waited, TAP are doing a special
	for the summer if you book now,  167 quid for two tickets.

	Ferrys are expensive.

	Heather

    RE: .38
    
    Oh, I see. It's our fault you wrote a sloppy and illiterate note. So
    sorry.
    
    Laurie.

    Re .41
    
    Like I said Laurie, you couldn't put a constructive comment together if
    you tried.
    
    Keith.

Here's a constructive comment;

	Take it to mail.

Dave.

    Don't worry Keith, I gave up in EF92 due to petty piking by the grammar
    gang.
    
    Whilst some noters are happy to contribute to the flow of a topic,
    some, alas, like nothing better than to just be petty and picky.
    Childish imho.                                        

    
    Re .30 and other "Europeanists" 
    
    The car industry is a world market. There is no such thing
    as a real "European" car industry any more. Europe is now just
    another place where some cars are manufactured.
    
    
    In figures published last week, Britain now has the lowest road
    accident/death figures of any country in Europe. Driving on the
    left is obviously safer than driving on the right. When will 
    the rest of Europe change over? 
    
    Richard.

	Re .39>
        
        > there was a paper in Nature(?) about 20 years ago that
	> suggested that there could be a link between tornadoes
	> and driving on the right in the northern hemisphere. (i
        
        This was once the subject of a question in the Automotive Trivia 
        topic 222 (how about resurrecting that somebody?) - 
        
        Extract from 222.33>
        
10. Well it goes like this. North America is increasingly plagued by violent 
storms which are always of a circular nature. Like your bathwater they always 
adopt the same pattern due to coriolis. This chap reckoned , and proved it 
statistically, that the incidence of these storms was related to the number of 
vehicles on the road. He surmised that every time two vehicles passed a micro 
storm was started. The majority died away but occasionally two would meet to 
form a bigger one and then perhaps two bigger ones would meet to form yet 
larger vortices. The one in countless millions would grow big enough to be 
damaging. Driving on the left was supposed to reduce this by generating 
vortices opposite to those which would naturally be amplified into big 
problems. It seems to me that driving on the left would actually make it worse 
but it all depends on what sort of vortices are created when two vehicles pass 
I suppose.

    
    Re -2 (I think)
    
    Driving on the left is not safer than driving on the right.
    It's just that British drivers are safer on the road than any of our
    other European neigbours.
    
    Julie.
    

>    It's just that British drivers are safer on the road than any of our
>    other European neigbours.
    
I *do* hope you're not including yourself in the 'British drivers' category 
Julie!


Faz. ;^)

    Actually I suspect that the high safety record on British roads is
    mostly to do with two things:
    
    1) Unlike continental roads, British roads are over-policed.
    2) Continental drivers, in the main, are completely crazy, dangerously so.
    
    Laurie.

You seem to be forgetting the amazing:

1) Priority to the right, but only when they feel like pulling out of a 
   sideroad in front of you.
2) The hereditary belief (at least in France) that they are completely safe when
   overtaking round a blind bend, and there will be nothing coming!

Faz.

P.S. :-)

>>       <<< Note 2049.51 by PLAYER::BROWNL "I wannabe VP for Logos..." >>>

>>    Actually I suspect that the high safety record on British roads is
>>    mostly to do with two things:
      
>>    1) Unlike continental roads, British roads are over-policed.
    
    Laurie,
    
    	one could argue that, if the level of policing IS responsible for
    Britain's high safety record, then British roads are NOT over-policed.
    
    	I suppose that it all depends on one's perspective of what the 
    police are trying to do or supposed to be doing.
    
    	Terry
    

    
    Re .last
    
    British roads are over-policed. 'nuff said!
    
    Richard
    
    

    RE: .53
    
    When I say "over-policed" I mean way past the point required to ensure
    road-safety. The longer I live outside Britain, the more I see it as a
    repressed and repressive society.
    
    Laurie.

    RE: .46
    
    Wouldn't driving on the right hand side of the road speed up the
    rotation of the earth while driving on the left slow it down? Or is it
    the other way around?
    
    For those who think I'm an absolute dingbat (well I'm not far off)
    
    what day is it today!

    
    Has anybody any idea of how much it would cost to change all the
    road signs, road markings and (some) road layouts?
    
    I imagine the costs would be huge! And nobody here has produced
    a convincing argument as to why it would be worth it.
    
    My car is left-hand-drive and I drive it in the UK and on the
    the continent. I don't see what all the fuss is about.
    
    The only annoying aspect, as far as I can see, is that certain
    cars and/or models are not available in RHD.
    
    - Jonathan (I hate to see a good argument fade. :-) )
    

A MAJOR, and crucial point why Britain, and all of those other countries that 
drive on the left are correct to do so, and Europe and the USA are WRONG, is
in part historical, and in part ergonomical.

The vast majority of people are right handed, with their visual acuity at it's 
sharpest and most accurate on their right side. This means that driving on the
left puts the greatest danger (vehicles approaching in the oposite direction) 
where the driver has the best chance to avoid any collision.

Historically (like hundreds of years ago), people on foot or horseback would
normally travel down the centre of a track, but would move to the LEFT to pass
someone coming from the opposite direction so that they could put their sword 
arm between themself and the potential attacker.

The Japanese drive on the LEFT for EXACTLY the same reason.

It made sense then, it makes sense now, we Right-Hand-Drivers are RIGHT.

		John Travell

    This topic has ben discussed in here and in EURO_MOTORING at some
    length. Europe changed over to the right at varying times between the
    10s and 30s this century. France and Germany were the first, chasing
    the American market. Belgium, which at that time had a thriving car
    manufacturing base, was amongst the last. Quite simply, it was the
    Americans that started it.
    
    Laurie.

    Ref .58
    
    I didn't know my Dad has access to Notes. Either that or he's been
    giving you his favourite "..of course you know it's the bl**dy Frech
    who drive on the wrong side, don't you.." line.
    
    Uncanny!

    There will be no RH drive version of the new Renault Twingo. Renault
    have obviously done their sums very carefully and decided that
    producing a RH drive version does not make economical sense.
    
    Salut,
    Edward

    
    Doesn't worry me either way.
    
    Mike (McLaren F1 driver)

re the Twingo. Good job too. It's even uglier than the Corsa!



	Ian

    ...I thought that the French drove their carriages on the right in
    Napoleonic times. That must pre-date the American interest in motor
    cars.
    
    By the way, .57, which side do you drive your car on ? 8^)
    
    Tony.

Re .Twingo.

Who-ever thought of that name deserves to be shot... what a bl$$dy stupid name
for a car.

                       Lewis_mines_called_twanga_danga_diddly_doo ;-)

	This may be (and indeed is) a rathole.  Further to the theory that passing
	on the left is because most people are right handed and you pass sword
	arm to sword arm (see spiral staircases in castles).  Now, I heard that
	driving on the right was as a result of military edicts in Europe so that
	you could prove that you were friendly (ie pass non-sword arm to non-sword
	arm - look at me I cannot attack).

	Dave

    hello
    

If the theories expressed earlier about Europe following America, and the tale 
I have heard about the origin of LHD in America are both true, we can blame

	** HENRY FORD **	for all of this rathole...

The story goes that early US vehicles were all made with a CENTRAL steering 
wheel, this being OK because there were so few vehicles (per mile of `road')
that it was a major event to meet another one. With speeds being very low, and 
roads being mostly dirt tracks, there was never a problem seeing someone coming.
I hear that it was common practice for drivers to stop for a chat...

Then HF built his Model T... and did not make it wide enough to seat 3 people
side-by-side. This meant he had to choose which side to put the steering wheel,
and got it wrong.!.!. but because of the success of the "T", everyone else 
copied this arrangement.

I sometimes wonder it this is just a load of Bull#%&*, but am not sufficiently 
interested to research the facts.

		John Travell.

P.S.   I still maintain, and will continue to do so, that RHD is RIGHT, and
LHD is less safe.

Re Twingo,

Well i take back that last statement... well done to the man who named the
beast, it IS well named. What a stupid looking car.

BTW it's called a Twingo in France as well... now i wonder how many tons of
English fish (or seamen) will fit in that! ;-) (oops different rathole ;-)). ;-)




					Lewis.

a stupid looking car that works great in the city...

    
    Re .last
    
    Since it's been put "on hold" in France because its too noisy and
    isn't available in the UK and Renault have said they will not make
    a RHD version I can only assume the last noter lives in Outer
    Mongolia
    

Has it been put on hold? I've seen one sitting in the Renault garage up the road
from here (actually sitting on the forecourt).

Err, no, what about the new Micra... that's supposed to be economical... not that
it looks much better (just a little though). I'd never even heard about the 
Twingo until reading those past few notes...



					Lewis.

    Re. new micro cars
    
    I test drove both the Twingo and the Micra. That is ... I sat in both
    during the Geneva Auto Show early March. What's truly amazing is that
    one can sit in the front and use a lot of legroom and then move to the
    back seats and still enjoy a lot of legroom too. When you look at these
    cars from the side you'll see that the wheels are really located at the
    4 corners, yielding a lot of wheelbase and room inside. Now don't open
    the boot ... you'll only see the back seat and room for a thin
    briefcase.

>    cars from the side you'll see that the wheels are really located at the
>    4 corners, yielding a lot of wheelbase and room inside. Now don't open
>    the boot ... you'll only see the back seat and room for a thin
>    briefcase.
    
    Do you sit in the crumple zone?  I hope they've put significant
    engineering into safety.

	I'm English!  Not Scots or Welsh or Irish.

	I like to drive on the left in Great Britain (never diven in N Ireland).

	I think in inches, feet, yards, .... Miles; Fluid ounces, Pints,
Gallons etc. etc. etc. and I'm proud of being British.  Long may we differ!

				Malcolm. 8-) 

PS.  I seem to remember that the continentals tried to build with metric bricks,
but had to go back to Imperial ones 'cos the metric sized ones didn't "work."